*** Official Russia vs. Ukraine Discussion - Invasion has begun *** (7 Viewers)

[FarFromHome]

I'm hopeful that this maybe nudges Russia to give a little. They can't want this war to continue. We are literally negotiating a war on live television with the press. It's crazy..

 

[General Malaise]

Zelensky has been asking for security guarantees such as weaponry and potentially NATO troops as part of the deal. Trump basically said nah, Putin and I are good and he would never break an agreement with me. Trump is asking for Zelensky to sign away rights to valuable resources and get nothing in return all while allowing Russia to keep the land, minerals, and port, they've already gotten through the invasion. Ukraine gives up minerals, freedom and land, Russia gets what it wants and Trump makes money.

That's probably a foregone conclusion anyway, isn't it?
I mean, do "we" keep going until Russia gives up what they fought for - and do we actively kick them out? That's not going to get done by Ukraine alone and I'm not interested in contributing actual manpower to do that.

If there is a genuine attempt at brokering a peace then Russia needs to make concessions as well. As it stands, the US has already had peace talks with Russia while excluding Ukraine and Europe and so far there is no talk of what Russia has to give up in return.

Why? There's no incentive for them to "give up" anything since they essentially winning.

And perhaps (and I don't really know, truly) the meeting with Russia was to gauge what they were willing to do? Brokering a deal doesn't mean that all sides are represented at all times.

This is the reason Zelensky is looking for security guarantees. As Dez pointed out, Putin is not to be trusted that he won't invade again after rearming and resetting his troops. If there is no concessions on regaining lost land then at least there needs to be assurance that future encroachment if off the table.

Does he have any leverage to even really ask for ANYTHING??

Agreed. At this point Ukraine has very little geopolitical leverage.

Rightly or wrongly, after three years it is running on fumes in terms of further support.

This is the hard reality that seems to have evaded most people in this thread.

Doesn't mean the US should bend them over, kind of what we aren't supposed to stand for.

Bend them over by trying to recoup what we have already given??
Let's say hypothetically the fighting can end and we get this mineral rights deal or whatever. Ukraine can actually benefit from that as well. Will they? Who knows. Even if the war ended today I'm not sure they are in a position to capitalize on any of those minerals any time soon anyway.

What specific minerals are we talking about here? Can I get a breakdown of the top 5 or so?

Follow-up, can you (or anybody) articulate how these minerals are being extracted and commercialized currently or is this just "land" that's waiting to be mined?

I just want a better handle on the term "mineral rights" being tossed around like we all all fully understand what that means.

Deal covered all but they have a bunch of rare earth ones. Not sure exactly which ones and have never actually seen them listed out.

I feel like it might be a little instructive to see how many of us know what "rare earth ones" means.

Not singling you out at all, but asking the group here: do you know what is meant by "rare earth ones"?

I feel like it is important to understand what this means because terms are being thrown around haphazardly and folks are nodding in agreement as if they understand.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I knew in my heart this thread was going to be at the top of the FFA
My heart hurts tonight watching things play out today, you can read that whichever way you want
I don't post often in this thread, last time I did I actually got several thumbs up from folks I hadn't heard from in years

I want peace as much as anyone else, however it sure seems like the instigator is getting away with murder
I don't think I have to name the country or name the leaders, we have all the playing cards of everyone at home.
It was news to me a couple weeks ago that the country I watched roll tanks across the border suddenly was deemed innocent

I'm having a hard time with this one, I gotta be honest with everyone. It's tough to watch this unfold
I felt like I needed a shower after watching what I assume was the most replayed rewatched 10 minutes in the Oval Office you will ever see
And I bet some folks are just doing a lot of this and watching the show
I feel a little sad this evening, the narrative all week was never recognized by Ukraine and honestly the meeting today shouldn't be a surprise either way
Nothing was ever agreed to, it was just pushed on everyone that everybody was shaking hands and agreeing, that's not the reality as we saw today

This thread needs to be respected, there's a lot of information if you were to slowly go page by page, some real time and effort was put into it over the last 3 years so at the very least please be respectful of each other, WE are worth it.

 

[ghostguy123]

Zelensky has been asking for security guarantees such as weaponry and potentially NATO troops as part of the deal. Trump basically said nah, Putin and I are good and he would never break an agreement with me. Trump is asking for Zelensky to sign away rights to valuable resources and get nothing in return all while allowing Russia to keep the land, minerals, and port, they've already gotten through the invasion. Ukraine gives up minerals, freedom and land, Russia gets what it wants and Trump makes money.

That's probably a foregone conclusion anyway, isn't it?
I mean, do "we" keep going until Russia gives up what they fought for - and do we actively kick them out? That's not going to get done by Ukraine alone and I'm not interested in contributing actual manpower to do that.

If there is a genuine attempt at brokering a peace then Russia needs to make concessions as well. As it stands, the US has already had peace talks with Russia while excluding Ukraine and Europe and so far there is no talk of what Russia has to give up in return.

Why? There's no incentive for them to "give up" anything since they essentially winning.

And perhaps (and I don't really know, truly) the meeting with Russia was to gauge what they were willing to do? Brokering a deal doesn't mean that all sides are represented at all times.

This is the reason Zelensky is looking for security guarantees. As Dez pointed out, Putin is not to be trusted that he won't invade again after rearming and resetting his troops. If there is no concessions on regaining lost land then at least there needs to be assurance that future encroachment if off the table.

Does he have any leverage to even really ask for ANYTHING??

Agreed. At this point Ukraine has very little geopolitical leverage.

Rightly or wrongly, after three years it is running on fumes in terms of further support.

This is the hard reality that seems to have evaded most people in this thread.

Doesn't mean the US should bend them over, kind of what we aren't supposed to stand for.

Bend them over by trying to recoup what we have already given??
Let's say hypothetically the fighting can end and we get this mineral rights deal or whatever. Ukraine can actually benefit from that as well. Will they? Who knows. Even if the war ended today I'm not sure they are in a position to capitalize on any of those minerals any time soon anyway.

What specific minerals are we talking about here? Can I get a breakdown of the top 5 or so?

Follow-up, can you (or anybody) articulate how these minerals are being extracted and commercialized currently or is this just "land" that's waiting to be mined?

I just want a better handle on the term "mineral rights" being tossed around like we all all fully understand what that means.

Deal covered all but they have a bunch of rare earth ones. Not sure exactly which ones and have never actually seen them listed out.

I feel like it might be a little instructive to see how many of us know what "rare earth ones" means.

Not singling you out at all, but asking the group here: do you know what is meant by "rare earth ones"?

I feel like it is important to understand what this means because terms are being thrown around haphazardly and folks are nodding in agreement as if they understand.

Most likely the elements needed for technology. The phone I'm typing this on probably has stuff in it mined by a 12 year old kid with a pickaxe

 

[Stoneworker]

What specific minerals are we talking about here? Can I get a breakdown of the top 5 or so?

Follow-up, can you (or anybody) articulate how these minerals are being extracted and commercialized currently or is this just "land" that's waiting to be mined?

I just want a better handle on the term "mineral rights" being tossed around like we all all fully understand what that means.

Deal covered all but they have a bunch of rare earth ones. Not sure exactly which ones and have never actually seen them listed out.

I feel like it might be a little instructive to see how many of us know what "rare earth ones" means.

Not singling you out at all, but asking the group here: do you know what is meant by "rare earth ones"?

I feel like it is important to understand what this means because terms are being thrown around haphazardly and folks are nodding in agreement as if they understand.

It's the stuff that goes into high-tech hardware like lasers, missiles, tanks, computer chips and clean energy. Titanium, lithium, and a whole bunch of other "iums". Right now China is far ahead in the mining of these and therefore the U.S. is potentially at a strategic technological disadvantage in industries of the future

But the sticking point is not the mineral deal itself, rather that Zelensky won't do it w/o an accompanying security guarantee from the U.S. (not saying that is right or wrong).

 

[General Malaise]

Before we go further on "Mineral Rights" vis a vis Ukraine, please read this for brief review of what's over there:

https://www.npr.org/2025/02/26/nx-s1-5309996/ukraine-rare-earth-minerals-metals-deal

 

[General Malaise]

Zelensky has been asking for security guarantees such as weaponry and potentially NATO troops as part of the deal. Trump basically said nah, Putin and I are good and he would never break an agreement with me. Trump is asking for Zelensky to sign away rights to valuable resources and get nothing in return all while allowing Russia to keep the land, minerals, and port, they've already gotten through the invasion. Ukraine gives up minerals, freedom and land, Russia gets what it wants and Trump makes money.

That's probably a foregone conclusion anyway, isn't it?
I mean, do "we" keep going until Russia gives up what they fought for - and do we actively kick them out? That's not going to get done by Ukraine alone and I'm not interested in contributing actual manpower to do that.

If there is a genuine attempt at brokering a peace then Russia needs to make concessions as well. As it stands, the US has already had peace talks with Russia while excluding Ukraine and Europe and so far there is no talk of what Russia has to give up in return.

Why? There's no incentive for them to "give up" anything since they essentially winning.

And perhaps (and I don't really know, truly) the meeting with Russia was to gauge what they were willing to do? Brokering a deal doesn't mean that all sides are represented at all times.

This is the reason Zelensky is looking for security guarantees. As Dez pointed out, Putin is not to be trusted that he won't invade again after rearming and resetting his troops. If there is no concessions on regaining lost land then at least there needs to be assurance that future encroachment if off the table.

Does he have any leverage to even really ask for ANYTHING??

Agreed. At this point Ukraine has very little geopolitical leverage.

Rightly or wrongly, after three years it is running on fumes in terms of further support.

This is the hard reality that seems to have evaded most people in this thread.

Doesn't mean the US should bend them over, kind of what we aren't supposed to stand for.

Bend them over by trying to recoup what we have already given??
Let's say hypothetically the fighting can end and we get this mineral rights deal or whatever. Ukraine can actually benefit from that as well. Will they? Who knows. Even if the war ended today I'm not sure they are in a position to capitalize on any of those minerals any time soon anyway.

What specific minerals are we talking about here? Can I get a breakdown of the top 5 or so?

Follow-up, can you (or anybody) articulate how these minerals are being extracted and commercialized currently or is this just "land" that's waiting to be mined?

I just want a better handle on the term "mineral rights" being tossed around like we all all fully understand what that means.

Deal covered all but they have a bunch of rare earth ones. Not sure exactly which ones and have never actually seen them listed out.

I feel like it might be a little instructive to see how many of us know what "rare earth ones" means.

Not singling you out at all, but asking the group here: do you know what is meant by "rare earth ones"?

I feel like it is important to understand what this means because terms are being thrown around haphazardly and folks are nodding in agreement as if they understand.

Most likely the elements needed for technology. The phone I'm typing this on probably has stuff in it mined by a 12 year old kid with a pickaxe

Right, in the Congo. Not in the Ukraine.

 

[General Malaise]

What specific minerals are we talking about here? Can I get a breakdown of the top 5 or so?

Follow-up, can you (or anybody) articulate how these minerals are being extracted and commercialized currently or is this just "land" that's waiting to be mined?

I just want a better handle on the term "mineral rights" being tossed around like we all all fully understand what that means.

Deal covered all but they have a bunch of rare earth ones. Not sure exactly which ones and have never actually seen them listed out.

I feel like it might be a little instructive to see how many of us know what "rare earth ones" means.

Not singling you out at all, but asking the group here: do you know what is meant by "rare earth ones"?

I feel like it is important to understand what this means because terms are being thrown around haphazardly and folks are nodding in agreement as if they understand.

It's the stuff that goes into high-tech hardware like lasers, missiles, tanks, computer chips and clean energy. Titanium, lithium, and a whole bunch of other "iums". Right now China is far ahead in the mining of these and therefore the U.S. is potentially at a strategic technological disadvantage in industries of the future

But the sticking point is not the mineral deal itself, rather that Zelensky won't do it w/o an accompanying security guarantee from the U.S. (not saying that is right or wrong).

My man, Ukraine is not the droid we are looking for with all your "iums". Titanium, sure, but that's not a critical element in short supply. Recycling is a huge driver.

Lithium? C'mon, man. It's a salt that's mined in Chile, Argentina, Australia even here. It's also in hard rock (spogamine) in Canada. It's abundant - prices have not done anything in years.

Yes, China dominates the Rare Earth market. They have for decades. You know who else has a ton of Rare Earth Elements?

THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

Look up Mountain Pass. We were using our rare earths for color TVs in the 60s. Problem is/was it's hideous for the environment. But we still have them. China just dominates the processing. They don't have the same environmental standards we do.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Zelensky has been interviewed on FOX for 25+ minutes, just stunning to watch and listen

 

[Stoneworker]

What specific minerals are we talking about here? Can I get a breakdown of the top 5 or so?

Follow-up, can you (or anybody) articulate how these minerals are being extracted and commercialized currently or is this just "land" that's waiting to be mined?

I just want a better handle on the term "mineral rights" being tossed around like we all all fully understand what that means.

Deal covered all but they have a bunch of rare earth ones. Not sure exactly which ones and have never actually seen them listed out.

I feel like it might be a little instructive to see how many of us know what "rare earth ones" means.

Not singling you out at all, but asking the group here: do you know what is meant by "rare earth ones"?

I feel like it is important to understand what this means because terms are being thrown around haphazardly and folks are nodding in agreement as if they understand.

It's the stuff that goes into high-tech hardware like lasers, missiles, tanks, computer chips and clean energy. Titanium, lithium, and a whole bunch of other "iums". Right now China is far ahead in the mining of these and therefore the U.S. is potentially at a strategic technological disadvantage in industries of the future

But the sticking point is not the mineral deal itself, rather that Zelensky won't do it w/o an accompanying security guarantee from the U.S. (not saying that is right or wrong).

My man, Ukraine is not the droid we are looking for with all your "iums". Titanium, sure, but that's not a critical element in short supply. Recycling is a huge driver.

Lithium? C'mon, man. It's a salt that's mined in Chile, Argentina, Australia even here. It's also in hard rock (spogamine) in Canada. It's abundant - prices have not done anything in years.

Yes, China dominates the Rare Earth market. They have for decades. You know who else has a ton of Rare Earth Elements?

THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

Look up Mountain Pass. We were using our rare earths for color TVs in the 60s. Problem is/was it's hideous for the environment. But we still have them. China just dominates the processing. They don't have the same environmental standards we do.

Knowing what is the molecular formula of rare earths has almost nothing do with understanding the overall situation.

Like I said, neither the minerals nor the JV structure is the sticking point. It's the security guarantee.

 

[General Malaise]

And guys......

Do you have ANY idea how labor intensive and capital intensive it is to establish a mining operation? The length it takes for geologists to find the right spot to mine? The success rate they hit at historically?

Let us please get real here and understand what is meant by mineral rights. To quote the great John Goodman from "Big Lebowski" - You're out of your depth here, Donnie!

The billions we spent in aid to Ukraine is a rounding error compared for what we'll spend mining for "iums" that aren't really there.

Educate yourselves.

 

[General Malaise]

What specific minerals are we talking about here? Can I get a breakdown of the top 5 or so?

Follow-up, can you (or anybody) articulate how these minerals are being extracted and commercialized currently or is this just "land" that's waiting to be mined?

I just want a better handle on the term "mineral rights" being tossed around like we all all fully understand what that means.

Deal covered all but they have a bunch of rare earth ones. Not sure exactly which ones and have never actually seen them listed out.

I feel like it might be a little instructive to see how many of us know what "rare earth ones" means.

Not singling you out at all, but asking the group here: do you know what is meant by "rare earth ones"?

I feel like it is important to understand what this means because terms are being thrown around haphazardly and folks are nodding in agreement as if they understand.

It's the stuff that goes into high-tech hardware like lasers, missiles, tanks, computer chips and clean energy. Titanium, lithium, and a whole bunch of other "iums". Right now China is far ahead in the mining of these and therefore the U.S. is potentially at a strategic technological disadvantage in industries of the future

But the sticking point is not the mineral deal itself, rather that Zelensky won't do it w/o an accompanying security guarantee from the U.S. (not saying that is right or wrong).

My man, Ukraine is not the droid we are looking for with all your "iums". Titanium, sure, but that's not a critical element in short supply. Recycling is a huge driver.

Lithium? C'mon, man. It's a salt that's mined in Chile, Argentina, Australia even here. It's also in hard rock (spogamine) in Canada. It's abundant - prices have not done anything in years.

Yes, China dominates the Rare Earth market. They have for decades. You know who else has a ton of Rare Earth Elements?

THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

Look up Mountain Pass. We were using our rare earths for color TVs in the 60s. Problem is/was it's hideous for the environment. But we still have them. China just dominates the processing. They don't have the same environmental standards we do.

Knowing what is the molecular formula of rare earths has almost nothing do with understanding the overall situation.

Like I said, neither the minerals nor the JV structure is the sticking point. It's the security guarantee.

You want the land.

Got it.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

And guys......

Do you have ANY idea how labor intensive and capital intensive it is to establish a mining operation? The length it takes for geologists to find the right spot to mine? The success rate they hit at historically?

Let us please get real here and understand what is meant by mineral rights. To quote the great John Goodman from "Big Lebowski" - You're out of your depth here, Donnie!

The billions we spent in aid to Ukraine is a rounding error for what we'll spend mining for "iums" that aren't really there.

Educate yourselves.

Do you know how this comes across?
When did you acquire a mining engineering degree?
I'm not saying you're wrong

Can you imagine if they had just said to themselves they were out of their depth when they stormed the beaches of Normandy?
No need to get feisty, just joking w/you
Points well said and well taken

 

[Stoneworker]

What specific minerals are we talking about here? Can I get a breakdown of the top 5 or so?

Follow-up, can you (or anybody) articulate how these minerals are being extracted and commercialized currently or is this just "land" that's waiting to be mined?

I just want a better handle on the term "mineral rights" being tossed around like we all all fully understand what that means.

Deal covered all but they have a bunch of rare earth ones. Not sure exactly which ones and have never actually seen them listed out.

I feel like it might be a little instructive to see how many of us know what "rare earth ones" means.

Not singling you out at all, but asking the group here: do you know what is meant by "rare earth ones"?

I feel like it is important to understand what this means because terms are being thrown around haphazardly and folks are nodding in agreement as if they understand.

It's the stuff that goes into high-tech hardware like lasers, missiles, tanks, computer chips and clean energy. Titanium, lithium, and a whole bunch of other "iums". Right now China is far ahead in the mining of these and therefore the U.S. is potentially at a strategic technological disadvantage in industries of the future

But the sticking point is not the mineral deal itself, rather that Zelensky won't do it w/o an accompanying security guarantee from the U.S. (not saying that is right or wrong).

My man, Ukraine is not the droid we are looking for with all your "iums". Titanium, sure, but that's not a critical element in short supply. Recycling is a huge driver.

Lithium? C'mon, man. It's a salt that's mined in Chile, Argentina, Australia even here. It's also in hard rock (spogamine) in Canada. It's abundant - prices have not done anything in years.

Yes, China dominates the Rare Earth market. They have for decades. You know who else has a ton of Rare Earth Elements?

THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

Look up Mountain Pass. We were using our rare earths for color TVs in the 60s. Problem is/was it's hideous for the environment. But we still have them. China just dominates the processing. They don't have the same environmental standards we do.

Knowing what is the molecular formula of rare earths has almost nothing do with understanding the overall situation.

Like I said, neither the minerals nor the JV structure is the sticking point. It's the security guarantee.

You want the land.

Got it.

Wut? I don't want anything.

My bad for taking you off Ignore

 

[eighsse2]

And guys......

Do you have ANY idea how labor intensive and capital intensive it is to establish a mining operation? The length it takes for geologists to find the right spot to mine? The success rate they hit at historically?

Let us please get real here and understand what is meant by mineral rights. To quote the great John Goodman from "Big Lebowski" - You're out of your depth here, Donnie!

The billions we spent in aid to Ukraine is a rounding error compared for what we'll spend mining for "iums" that aren't really there.

Educate yourselves.

I have no idea but is it possible the locations are already known and the mining operations already exist?

 

[ghostguy123]

And guys......

Do you have ANY idea how labor intensive and capital intensive it is to establish a mining operation? The length it takes for geologists to find the right spot to mine? The success rate they hit at historically?

Let us please get real here and understand what is meant by mineral rights. To quote the great John Goodman from "Big Lebowski" - You're out of your depth here, Donnie!

The billions we spent in aid to Ukraine is a rounding error compared for what we'll spend mining for "iums" that aren't really there.

Educate yourselves.

Having US workers there working may also act as a deterent to Russian invading more

 

[General Malaise]

What specific minerals are we talking about here? Can I get a breakdown of the top 5 or so?

Follow-up, can you (or anybody) articulate how these minerals are being extracted and commercialized currently or is this just "land" that's waiting to be mined?

I just want a better handle on the term "mineral rights" being tossed around like we all all fully understand what that means.

Deal covered all but they have a bunch of rare earth ones. Not sure exactly which ones and have never actually seen them listed out.

I feel like it might be a little instructive to see how many of us know what "rare earth ones" means.

Not singling you out at all, but asking the group here: do you know what is meant by "rare earth ones"?

I feel like it is important to understand what this means because terms are being thrown around haphazardly and folks are nodding in agreement as if they understand.

It's the stuff that goes into high-tech hardware like lasers, missiles, tanks, computer chips and clean energy. Titanium, lithium, and a whole bunch of other "iums". Right now China is far ahead in the mining of these and therefore the U.S. is potentially at a strategic technological disadvantage in industries of the future

But the sticking point is not the mineral deal itself, rather that Zelensky won't do it w/o an accompanying security guarantee from the U.S. (not saying that is right or wrong).

My man, Ukraine is not the droid we are looking for with all your "iums". Titanium, sure, but that's not a critical element in short supply. Recycling is a huge driver.

Lithium? C'mon, man. It's a salt that's mined in Chile, Argentina, Australia even here. It's also in hard rock (spogamine) in Canada. It's abundant - prices have not done anything in years.

Yes, China dominates the Rare Earth market. They have for decades. You know who else has a ton of Rare Earth Elements?

THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

Look up Mountain Pass. We were using our rare earths for color TVs in the 60s. Problem is/was it's hideous for the environment. But we still have them. China just dominates the processing. They don't have the same environmental standards we do.

Knowing what is the molecular formula of rare earths has almost nothing do with understanding the overall situation.

Like I said, neither the minerals nor the JV structure is the sticking point. It's the security guarantee.

You want the land.

Got it.

Wut? I don't want anything.

My bad for taking you off Ignore

Just asking all of us to get a better grip of what "mineral rights" means with regards to Ukraine. You obviously have no idea, nor do many others.

I've never put somebody back OFF ignore, so thanks for the 2nd chance!

 

[FreeBaGeL]

I watched the meeting, but I don't know much about diplomacy and such. What got things upset there toward the end? Ukraine wants help, military and/or diplomatic, the US wants minerals in return. Zelenskyy started saying something about how it's been going on since 2014. Then things went crazy.

Basically Zelensky was saying that Putin ignored the cease fire that was signed in 2019 and they went nuts. Think basically because that put Trump in a bad light as he was President when it was signed. A simple ceasefire really doesn't help out Ukraine as Russia has broken them numerous times (see Minsk I and II from 2014 and 2015).

Right, this is 100% it.

It was all about that being from 2019. You could tell because when Zelensky was first talking about 2014 and Trump misheard 2014 as 2016 he got all defensive and said "not 2016, it was 2015!" and when Zelensky clarified that he had said 2014 Trump nodded happily because 2014 was Obama.

But then when Zelensky moved forward to 2019 that's when JD/Trump went nuts.

JD was saying we need to use diplomacy and a deal to solve this. Zelensky was saying last time we used diplomacy and a deal it just lead to Russia ignoring it, reneging on the terms (prisoner transfer that Russia didn't honor), and invading a few years later anyway.

When Zelensky was saying the diplomacy in 2014 didn't work, JD/Trump were fine with it because....thanks Obama. When he said the diplomacy in 2019 didn't work, that's when they got angry.

His concern now seems to be that any deal/ceasefire will ultimately just be ignored by Russia like it was the last two times.

 

[AAABatteries]

I don’t care what your politics are or what you think of this war - that press conference was embarrassing.

 

[yak651]

Thing the goal was to goad Zelenskyy into blowing up the deal. Trumps comment at the end about making good tv shows what the goal was and why this was played out in front of the cameras. Things were going ok until JD threw out the “not thankful” comment knowing it would get under his skin. Yes he has some facial reactions that should have been controlled better, I’m not sure how easy that is when someone is belittling your efforts if the last 3 years after seeing/living in all the devastation of the war, all in all not a good look for either country.

 

[Redwes25]

Zelensky has been asking for security guarantees such as weaponry and potentially NATO troops as part of the deal. Trump basically said nah, Putin and I are good and he would never break an agreement with me. Trump is asking for Zelensky to sign away rights to valuable resources and get nothing in return all while allowing Russia to keep the land, minerals, and port, they've already gotten through the invasion. Ukraine gives up minerals, freedom and land, Russia gets what it wants and Trump makes money.

That's probably a foregone conclusion anyway, isn't it?
I mean, do "we" keep going until Russia gives up what they fought for - and do we actively kick them out? That's not going to get done by Ukraine alone and I'm not interested in contributing actual manpower to do that.

If there is a genuine attempt at brokering a peace then Russia needs to make concessions as well. As it stands, the US has already had peace talks with Russia while excluding Ukraine and Europe and so far there is no talk of what Russia has to give up in return.

Why? There's no incentive for them to "give up" anything since they essentially winning.

And perhaps (and I don't really know, truly) the meeting with Russia was to gauge what they were willing to do? Brokering a deal doesn't mean that all sides are represented at all times.

This is the reason Zelensky is looking for security guarantees. As Dez pointed out, Putin is not to be trusted that he won't invade again after rearming and resetting his troops. If there is no concessions on regaining lost land then at least there needs to be assurance that future encroachment if off the table.

Does he have any leverage to even really ask for ANYTHING??

Agreed. At this point Ukraine has very little geopolitical leverage.

Rightly or wrongly, after three years it is running on fumes in terms of further support.

This is the hard reality that seems to have evaded most people in this thread.

Doesn't mean the US should bend them over, kind of what we aren't supposed to stand for.

Bend them over by trying to recoup what we have already given??
Let's say hypothetically the fighting can end and we get this mineral rights deal or whatever. Ukraine can actually benefit from that as well. Will they? Who knows. Even if the war ended today I'm not sure they are in a position to capitalize on any of those minerals any time soon anyway.

What specific minerals are we talking about here? Can I get a breakdown of the top 5 or so?

Follow-up, can you (or anybody) articulate how these minerals are being extracted and commercialized currently or is this just "land" that's waiting to be mined?

I just want a better handle on the term "mineral rights" being tossed around like we all all fully understand what that means.

Deal covered all but they have a bunch of rare earth ones. Not sure exactly which ones and have never actually seen them listed out.

I feel like it might be a little instructive to see how many of us know what "rare earth ones" means.

Not singling you out at all, but asking the group here: do you know what is meant by "rare earth ones"?

I feel like it is important to understand what this means because terms are being thrown around haphazardly and folks are nodding in agreement as if they understand.

I understand the basics. There are about 50 or so different ones and they are used in many modern electronics and batteries.

 

[bigbottom]

I’m super sad tonight. I’ll just leave it at that.

 

[General Malaise]

Zelensky has been asking for security guarantees such as weaponry and potentially NATO troops as part of the deal. Trump basically said nah, Putin and I are good and he would never break an agreement with me. Trump is asking for Zelensky to sign away rights to valuable resources and get nothing in return all while allowing Russia to keep the land, minerals, and port, they've already gotten through the invasion. Ukraine gives up minerals, freedom and land, Russia gets what it wants and Trump makes money.

That's probably a foregone conclusion anyway, isn't it?
I mean, do "we" keep going until Russia gives up what they fought for - and do we actively kick them out? That's not going to get done by Ukraine alone and I'm not interested in contributing actual manpower to do that.

If there is a genuine attempt at brokering a peace then Russia needs to make concessions as well. As it stands, the US has already had peace talks with Russia while excluding Ukraine and Europe and so far there is no talk of what Russia has to give up in return.

Why? There's no incentive for them to "give up" anything since they essentially winning.

And perhaps (and I don't really know, truly) the meeting with Russia was to gauge what they were willing to do? Brokering a deal doesn't mean that all sides are represented at all times.

This is the reason Zelensky is looking for security guarantees. As Dez pointed out, Putin is not to be trusted that he won't invade again after rearming and resetting his troops. If there is no concessions on regaining lost land then at least there needs to be assurance that future encroachment if off the table.

Does he have any leverage to even really ask for ANYTHING??

Agreed. At this point Ukraine has very little geopolitical leverage.

Rightly or wrongly, after three years it is running on fumes in terms of further support.

This is the hard reality that seems to have evaded most people in this thread.

Doesn't mean the US should bend them over, kind of what we aren't supposed to stand for.

Bend them over by trying to recoup what we have already given??
Let's say hypothetically the fighting can end and we get this mineral rights deal or whatever. Ukraine can actually benefit from that as well. Will they? Who knows. Even if the war ended today I'm not sure they are in a position to capitalize on any of those minerals any time soon anyway.

What specific minerals are we talking about here? Can I get a breakdown of the top 5 or so?

Follow-up, can you (or anybody) articulate how these minerals are being extracted and commercialized currently or is this just "land" that's waiting to be mined?

I just want a better handle on the term "mineral rights" being tossed around like we all all fully understand what that means.

Deal covered all but they have a bunch of rare earth ones. Not sure exactly which ones and have never actually seen them listed out.

I feel like it might be a little instructive to see how many of us know what "rare earth ones" means.

Not singling you out at all, but asking the group here: do you know what is meant by "rare earth ones"?

I feel like it is important to understand what this means because terms are being thrown around haphazardly and folks are nodding in agreement as if they understand.

I understand the basics. There are about 50 or so different ones and they are used in many modern electronics and batteries.

Keep going! How many of these 50 or so are in Ukraine soil? How many are commercial deposits? How many are being mined right now? Who is refining them?

These are questions that have to be asked and answered.

Let us please have a rudimentary understanding of what it means to toss around "mineral rights" like a Nerf football. Please.

 

[BassNBrew]

And guys......

Do you have ANY idea how labor intensive and capital intensive it is to establish a mining operation? The length it takes for geologists to find the right spot to mine? The success rate they hit at historically?

Let us please get real here and understand what is meant by mineral rights. To quote the great John Goodman from "Big Lebowski" - You're out of your depth here, Donnie!

The billions we spent in aid to Ukraine is a rounding error for what we'll spend mining for "iums" that aren't really there.

Educate yourselves.

Do you know how this comes across?
When did you acquire a mining engineering degree?
I'm not saying you're wrong

Can you imagine if they had just said to themselves they were out of their depth when they stormed the beaches of Normandy?
No need to get feisty, just joking w/you
Points well said and well taken

He's probably the foremost expert in these parts in international mining and icing coffee.

 

[Stoneworker]

The fundamental thing I don't understand is the extreme reticence to even nod to the notion of a future security arrangement.

It would seem that would be axiomatic to the durability of any peace deal and something the vast majority of Americans would be not only accepting of but deem essential.

ETA: This is not meant to come across as a political stmt and I will happily retract if it goes in that direction

 

[FreeBaGeL]

And guys......

Do you have ANY idea how labor intensive and capital intensive it is to establish a mining operation? The length it takes for geologists to find the right spot to mine? The success rate they hit at historically?

Let us please get real here and understand what is meant by mineral rights. To quote the great John Goodman from "Big Lebowski" - You're out of your depth here, Donnie!

The billions we spent in aid to Ukraine is a rounding error for what we'll spend mining for "iums" that aren't really there.

Educate yourselves.

Do you know how this comes across?
When did you acquire a mining engineering degree?
I'm not saying you're wrong

Can you imagine if they had just said to themselves they were out of their depth when they stormed the beaches of Normandy?
No need to get feisty, just joking w/you
Points well said and well taken

I don't know what GM's background in mineral mining is, but he has like 200 posts on this forum about it in other threads, so it's not like he just suddenly decided to read a wiki about it. He's our resident mining stock guy over in the stock thread.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

The fundamental thing I don't understand is the extreme reticence to even nod to the notion of a future security arrangement.

It would seem that would be axiomatic to the durability of any peace deal and something the vast majority of Americans would be not only accepting of but deem essential.

ETA: This is not meant to come across as a political stmt and I will happily retract if it goes in that direction

Isn't this likely for the same reason Zelensky was talking about in the interview? No one thinks Russia will actually honor any agreement, as they haven't in the past. So from Ukraine's perspective, what's the point in giving (large) concessions for an agreement that you know will ultimately just be ignored anyway?

 

[Stoneworker]

The fundamental thing I don't understand is the extreme reticence to even nod to the notion of a future security arrangement.

It would seem that would be axiomatic to the durability of any peace deal and something the vast majority of Americans would be not only accepting of but deem essential.

ETA: This is not meant to come across as a political stmt and I will happily retract if it goes in that direction

Isn't this likely for the same reason Zelensky was talking about in the interview? No one thinks Russia will actually honor any agreement, as they haven't in the past. So from Ukraine's perspective, what's the point in giving (large) concessions for an agreement that you know will ultimately just be ignored anyway?

Yes. If it was just on paper then you are absolutely correct.

But I was referring to the UK-French proposal for 30K peacekeeping troops (and perhaps additional EU) to be deployed after a peace deal was reached.

The UK prime minister was here the other day requesting that the U.S. "backstop" that in some way. That doesn't seem unreasonable especially if we have civilians on the ground involved in mining or other redevelopment operations.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

The fundamental thing I don't understand is the extreme reticence to even nod to the notion of a future security arrangement.

It would seem that would be axiomatic to the durability of any peace deal and something the vast majority of Americans would be not only accepting of but deem essential.

ETA: This is not meant to come across as a political stmt and I will happily retract if it goes in that direction

Isn't this likely for the same reason Zelensky was talking about in the interview? No one thinks Russia will actually honor any agreement, as they haven't in the past. So from Ukraine's perspective, what's the point in giving (large) concessions for an agreement that you know will ultimately just be ignored anyway?

So, what, were stuck giving Ukraine money until they somehow defeat Russia? That's kind of what is being said if Zelenskyy won't accept any brokered deal with Russia.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Zelenskyy won't accept any brokered deal with Russia

Maybe we could wait until he rejects one that's brokered in good faith before we worry Zelensky won't accept any deal.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Zelenskyy won't accept any brokered deal with Russia

Maybe we could wait until he rejects one that's brokered in good faith before we worry Zelensky won't accept any deal.

That's not what I said. Please don't parse my words like that.

 

[Chaz McNulty]

The fundamental thing I don't understand is the extreme reticence to even nod to the notion of a future security arrangement.

It would seem that would be axiomatic to the durability of any peace deal and something the vast majority of Americans would be not only accepting of but deem essential.

ETA: This is not meant to come across as a political stmt and I will happily retract if it goes in that direction

Isn't this likely for the same reason Zelensky was talking about in the interview? No one thinks Russia will actually honor any agreement, as they haven't in the past. So from Ukraine's perspective, what's the point in giving (large) concessions for an agreement that you know will ultimately just be ignored anyway?

So, what, were stuck giving Ukraine money until they somehow defeat Russia? That's kind of what is being said if Zelenskyy won't accept any brokered deal with Russia.

This depends on your view of Russia. If you view them as adversarial, then weakening their military and their world standing without the cost of lives can be viewed as a positive.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

The fundamental thing I don't understand is the extreme reticence to even nod to the notion of a future security arrangement.

It would seem that would be axiomatic to the durability of any peace deal and something the vast majority of Americans would be not only accepting of but deem essential.

ETA: This is not meant to come across as a political stmt and I will happily retract if it goes in that direction

Isn't this likely for the same reason Zelensky was talking about in the interview? No one thinks Russia will actually honor any agreement, as they haven't in the past. So from Ukraine's perspective, what's the point in giving (large) concessions for an agreement that you know will ultimately just be ignored anyway?

So, what, were stuck giving Ukraine money until they somehow defeat Russia? That's kind of what is being said if Zelenskyy won't accept any brokered deal with Russia.

This depends on your view of Russia. If you view them as adversarial, then weakening their military and their world standing without the cost of lives can be viewed as a positive.

It's costing plenty of lives right now.

And no, I'm not at all worried about Russia's military - or at least the one I am worried about, nukes, isn't the one that'll be weakened by continuing fighting in Ukraine.

 

[FarFromHome]

Ukraine knows the next best thing to joining NATO would be to have a United States presence in the country. Thats what would be different then previous treaty deals throughout Ukraines history. The United States presence is a big deterrent. What's the cost to acquire that deterrent? Something will get done. It's the only move they have. Imo

 

[djmich]

May have missed it if posted, but complete clip Here

 

[rockaction]

Here is a summary, country by country, of the reaction to today's events by world leaders per Al Jazeera (I know it's not a wonderful source, but the quotes I believe are authentic.) This sent shockwaves throughout the world today and demanded comment from world leaders, who certainly obliged. One went so far as to say that there needs to be a new leader of the Free World. Heavy day on the diplomacy front.

World reacts after Donald Trump, JD Vance berate Ukraine’s Zelenskyy

Trump wrote on social media that Volodymyr Zelenskyy was not 'ready for peace if America is involved'.

www.aljazeera.com

eta* any semblance of opinion removed.

 

[Chadstroma]

In 1994, Russia gave security guarantees to the Ukrainians in order for Ukraine to give up their nuclear weapons. The US, UK, France and China also were party to the security guarantee.

Everyone seems to have forgotten that.

 

[rockaction]

In 1994, Russia gave security guarantees to the Ukrainians in order for Ukraine to give up their nuclear weapons. The US, UK, France and China also were party to the security guarantee.

Everyone seems to have forgotten that.

If by everyone you're including me, then you're wrong. But who am I but a wretch?

 

[Ridgeback]

Here is a summary, country by country, of the reaction to today's events by world leaders per Al Jazeera (I know it's not a wonderful source, but the quotes I believe are authentic.) This sent shockwaves throughout the world today and demanded comment from world leaders, who certainly obliged. One went so far as to say that there needs to be a new leader of the Free World. Heavy day on the diplomacy front.

World reacts after Donald Trump, JD Vance berate Ukraine’s Zelenskyy

Trump wrote on social media that Volodymyr Zelenskyy was not 'ready for peace if America is involved'.

www.aljazeera.com

eta* any semblance of opinion removed.

Sad that any opinion needs to be removed.

 

[rockaction]

Here is a summary, country by country, of the reaction to today's events by world leaders per Al Jazeera (I know it's not a wonderful source, but the quotes I believe are authentic.) This sent shockwaves throughout the world today and demanded comment from world leaders, who certainly obliged. One went so far as to say that there needs to be a new leader of the Free World. Heavy day on the diplomacy front.

World reacts after Donald Trump, JD Vance berate Ukraine’s Zelenskyy

Trump wrote on social media that Volodymyr Zelenskyy was not 'ready for peace if America is involved'.

www.aljazeera.com

eta* any semblance of opinion removed.

Sad that any opinion needs to be removed.

I'm trying my hardest to abide board rules. The fewer words I type about this tonight and in the days ahead, the better off I'll be regarding keeping it cool.

 

[fatness]

Looking for a source but my buddy just read that Zelensky asked for US ground troops and said he may not sign the mineral deal otherwise.

Did you find a source for this? Thanks.

 

[fatness]

And guys......

Do you have ANY idea how labor intensive and capital intensive it is to establish a mining operation? The length it takes for geologists to find the right spot to mine? The success rate they hit at historically?

Let us please get real here and understand what is meant by mineral rights. To quote the great John Goodman from "Big Lebowski" - You're out of your depth here, Donnie!

The billions we spent in aid to Ukraine is a rounding error compared for what we'll spend mining for "iums" that aren't really there.

Educate yourselves.

Having US workers there working may also act as a deterent to Russian invading more

Putting US citizens there to prevent a Russian attack seems far less effective than putting US troops there, and nobody wants that.
And it seems cowardly.

 

[fatness]

I can't believe people are celebrating this as a victory.

Pure BS. Just exactly who is "celebrating this as a victory?"

So far, Russian media, members of the President's party, Fox News, and Viktor Orban.
Just answering your question.

 

[Stoneworker]

I can't believe people are celebrating this as a victory.

Pure BS. Just exactly who is "celebrating this as a victory?"

So far, Russian media, members of the President's party, Fox News, and Viktor Orban.
Just answering your question.

I'm quite sure the poster was referring to people in this thread

 

[Ridgeback]

I can't believe people are celebrating this as a victory.

Pure BS. Just exactly who is "celebrating this as a victory?"

So far, Russian media, members of the President's party, Fox News, and Viktor Orban.
Just answering your question.

Ah, so bird's of a feather.

 

[fatness]

State Department terminates U.S. support of Ukraine energy grid restoration

 

[Stoneworker]

Zelenskyy interview with Brett Baier up on YouTube. He did very well.

Hopefully this thing will survive all the ego-bruising and divisive partisan rhetoric and get back on track towards peace.

 

[fatness]

In my opinion, the link to describe what happened in the meeting is absolutely necessary because it's part of the discussion of the war. But it has to stop there. Now that we know what happened, the discussions have to be about the different scenarios, what happens going forward, etc. That's all we can talk about, again, in my opinion.

It CAN'T be about the motives of the administration or anything political. Those comments have to be left out.

We can and do discuss the motives of the leaders of Ukraine and Russia, so we have to be able to discuss the motives of the US.

 

[Tau837]

Educate yourselves.

This is such an arrogant, ******* comment. You can be better than this, and you should.

 

[[icon]]

I would recommend picking up listening to the Shawn Ryan podcast for those interested in this area of topics. He is an ex-SEAL teams guy and has a lot of ex-operators on but also many others. I started listening on my trip from Chicago to Atlanta and back and marathon listened to it over the roughly 24 hours of driving I did. Fascinating interviews that give a ton of insight in many subjects that those interested in this thread would likely also find interesting.

Shawn Ryan is a pretty good listen but I’d go ahead and keep a jar of grains of salt handy. That dude crossed the bridge into the neighborhood of make believe on occasion.

Was going to caution the same. Shawn has some interesting guests on that are legit and bring good info. He also has some whack jobs. Through it all, he just nods, fake laughs and doesn't really do much of insightful interviewing. What I do like about him is he doesn't constantly interrupt the guest, he lets them talk which is refreshing. Any of his interviews with Sarah Adams always make the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

Not to highjack this important thread but...

As much as I enjoy the operators and CIA etc on there it is refreshing to get other people and hear things I would never ever hear otherwise... whether I believe it or not. I am always game to have my horizons pushed out further and challenge my worldview or beliefs. I am not much of a conspiracy or UFO type guy- I use to be addicted to the History Channel back in the day and then basically stopped watching it because of all the UFO's built the Pyramids stuff so it isn't really up my alley so to speak but I still enjoyed the interview with the guy about remote viewing not too long ago.

I think Shawn does a great job of letting the guests talk and then asking prompting questions or redirect at times but really let's the guests tell their stories... and whether it is an operator that is now running a non-profit to save people from sex trafficking or Peter Berg talking about movie stuff or the dude about remote viewing.... I have gone through a bunch of episodes since my marathon listening on my long drive and have not yet come away with "well, that was a waste of time". You get glimpses into a world most of us really don't know about and it if heavily concetrated on military, national security, terrorism, geopolitics, etc.

Big fan.... and this is from someone who doesn't much every enjoy talk radio or listen to any other podcast. The nearest thing that I have got hooked on at all is the Pat McAfee show.

Like I said…

Very good listen…

But take care not to get sucked into the neighborhood of make believe