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*** Official Russia vs. Ukraine Discussion - Invasion has begun *** (5 Viewers)

PSKOV, Russia - Pskov shopping mall manager Nikolai Rassadin said
"Russia is a country that for all of its existence has been at war. War is in our blood." WSJ and paywall

Ok I agree with this 100% My question is WHY???
What exactly is your problem, Russia??!! Can't you chill out for a few hundred years??
 
Last edited:
leftcoastguy7 said:
PSKOV, Russia - Pskov shopping mall manager Nikolai Rassadin said
"Russia is a country that for all of its existence has been at war,” War is in our blood." WSJ and paywall

Ok I agree with this 100% My question is WHY???
What exactly is your problem, Russia??!! Can't you chill out for a few hundred years??
Click to expand...
To be fair it isn't all their fault. They have been invaded by Mongols, Swedes, Germans (at least three times), Poles, Ukranians, Romanians, Turks, British, French blah blah blah. It is a rough neighborhood and it is a hard sell to say that it will never happen again.
 
Hot Diggity Dog said:
leftcoastguy7 said:
PSKOV, Russia - Pskov shopping mall manager Nikolai Rassadin said
"Russia is a country that for all of its existence has been at war,” War is in our blood." WSJ and paywall

Ok I agree with this 100% My question is WHY???
What exactly is your problem, Russia??!! Can't you chill out for a few hundred years??
Click to expand...
To be fair it isn't all their fault. They have been invaded by Mongols, Swedes, Germans (at least three times), Poles, Ukranians, Romanians, Turks, British, French blah blah blah. It is a rough neighborhood and it is a hard sell to say that it will never happen again.
Click to expand...
How many of these invasions happened after they got nukes?
 
i keep seeing articles that Russia is overextending, wasting their manpower, about to break, etc. Yet all we've seen in 2023 is them pushing Ukraine bit by bit. Maybe it's me, but I'm afraid these reports are propaganda and that Ukraine are the ones that are about to break. The mild winter didn't result in the Russian army freezing to death and it appears they are coming out stronger after winter than they were coming in. I'm not sure Ukraine can say the same. Hope I'm wrong.
 
Hot Diggity Dog said:
leftcoastguy7 said:
PSKOV, Russia - Pskov shopping mall manager Nikolai Rassadin said
"Russia is a country that for all of its existence has been at war,” War is in our blood." WSJ and paywall

Ok I agree with this 100% My question is WHY???
What exactly is your problem, Russia??!! Can't you chill out for a few hundred years??
Click to expand...
To be fair it isn't all their fault. They have been invaded by Mongols, Swedes, Germans (at least three times), Poles, Ukranians, Romanians, Turks, British, French blah blah blah. It is a rough neighborhood and it is a hard sell to say that it will never happen again.
Click to expand...
Is there any country in Europe that has been invaded less frequently than Russia? Maybe Switzerland because of its topography and its obsessive neutrality. UK because it is an island nation, but they've been in plenty of wars not on their own soil. Anybody else? The former Warsaw Pact nations have basically been a nearly constant battleground for counties near them. And Russia has been the most recent aggressor against these countries, hence why they are so enthusiastic about helping Ukraine.
 
Orange&Blue said:
i keep seeing articles that Russia is overextending, wasting their manpower, about to break, etc. Yet all we've seen in 2023 is them pushing Ukraine bit by bit. Maybe it's me, but I'm afraid these reports are propaganda and that Ukraine are the ones that are about to break. The mild winter didn't result in the Russian army freezing to death and it appears they are coming out stronger after winter than they were coming in. I'm not sure Ukraine can say the same. Hope I'm wrong.
Click to expand...
Russia has been getting stronger in terms of shear numbers due to their mobilization. The question is how effective those numbers will be. Most of those conscripts received virtually no training, and are basically useless for a combined arms offensive, which requires a high degree of coordination among the various branches like tanks, infantry, artillery, air power, etc. They are perfectly fine for occupying a defensive trench, as we learned in WW1. Just sit there and if you see somebody coming your way then shoot them.

Ukraine has been receiving high quality training from NATO countries, as well as high quality equipment (with of course many limitations on that equipment). If anybody can launch a successful offensive, it is more likely to be Ukraine than Russia. But it is a very open question if Ukraine will be able to launch that successful offensive.

Russia will not break if Ukraine doesn't have a successful offensive. They'll be happy to run the meat grinder day by day until Ukraine runs out of troops. That's basically what happened in the American Civil War - the Confederacy collapsed once everybody that wanted to die for their country was given the chance to do so.

But if Ukraine can strike and take Mariupol (big if given all the defensive lines they would have to cross) then Crimea would be in a highly compromised position. This is because the rail lines from Russia to Crimea would be cut, so the supply of Crimea would be very problematic. If Ukraine pulls off that first offensive, then the chances of Russia falling apart become more realistic.
 
Ted Lange as your Bartender said:
Hot Diggity Dog said:
leftcoastguy7 said:
PSKOV, Russia - Pskov shopping mall manager Nikolai Rassadin said
"Russia is a country that for all of its existence has been at war,” War is in our blood." WSJ and paywall

Ok I agree with this 100% My question is WHY???
What exactly is your problem, Russia??!! Can't you chill out for a few hundred years??
Click to expand...
To be fair it isn't all their fault. They have been invaded by Mongols, Swedes, Germans (at least three times), Poles, Ukranians, Romanians, Turks, British, French blah blah blah. It is a rough neighborhood and it is a hard sell to say that it will never happen again.
Click to expand...
How many of these invasions happened after they got nukes?
Click to expand...
I'm not defending what they are doing I'm explaining their mentality. They are not going to forget history because they have nukes. Also they have nukes and their empire dissovled and the opposing alliance added countries up to their borders including areas that have been integral parts of their country. It's stupid to disregard their mindset.
 
themeistersinger said:
Hot Diggity Dog said:
leftcoastguy7 said:
PSKOV, Russia - Pskov shopping mall manager Nikolai Rassadin said
"Russia is a country that for all of its existence has been at war,” War is in our blood." WSJ and paywall

Ok I agree with this 100% My question is WHY???
What exactly is your problem, Russia??!! Can't you chill out for a few hundred years??
Click to expand...
To be fair it isn't all their fault. They have been invaded by Mongols, Swedes, Germans (at least three times), Poles, Ukranians, Romanians, Turks, British, French blah blah blah. It is a rough neighborhood and it is a hard sell to say that it will never happen again.
Click to expand...
Is there any country in Europe that has been invaded less frequently than Russia? Maybe Switzerland because of its topography and its obsessive neutrality. UK because it is an island nation, but they've been in plenty of wars not on their own soil. Anybody else? The former Warsaw Pact nations have basically been a nearly constant battleground for counties near them. And Russia has been the most recent aggressor against these countries, hence why they are so enthusiastic about helping Ukraine.
Click to expand...
I suppose we could go through but I would say very few countries have been invaded less then Russia, and certainly when you remember that Russia as a country has existed much longer and with the corresponding sense of self, for a very long time, in comparison. Germany has existed only since 1870 and has only really been invaded once where the country paid a terrible price, at the end of the Second World War. I think you are absolutely wrong to say Russia has been the least invaded country in Europe. That is just wrong.
Again, this isn't justification this is explanation. It isn't to say Russia hasn't invaded others throughout history. But their war mentality isn't the product of nothing or a fatal flaw in their society. The U.S. helped grind two countries to dust including the use of nuclear weapons and became the World's Policeman because Japan conducted a sneak attack that killed like 2,500 people and led to a war that killed about 600,000 citizens. Russia still has living memory of the same war and they entered because of a sneak attack that ended up killing 20 to 30 million. These events shape policies and assumptions of countries and result in "never again" mindsets.
 
Hot Diggity Dog said:
themeistersinger said:
Hot Diggity Dog said:
leftcoastguy7 said:
PSKOV, Russia - Pskov shopping mall manager Nikolai Rassadin said
"Russia is a country that for all of its existence has been at war,” War is in our blood." WSJ and paywall

Ok I agree with this 100% My question is WHY???
What exactly is your problem, Russia??!! Can't you chill out for a few hundred years??
Click to expand...
To be fair it isn't all their fault. They have been invaded by Mongols, Swedes, Germans (at least three times), Poles, Ukranians, Romanians, Turks, British, French blah blah blah. It is a rough neighborhood and it is a hard sell to say that it will never happen again.
Click to expand...
Is there any country in Europe that has been invaded less frequently than Russia? Maybe Switzerland because of its topography and its obsessive neutrality. UK because it is an island nation, but they've been in plenty of wars not on their own soil. Anybody else? The former Warsaw Pact nations have basically been a nearly constant battleground for counties near them. And Russia has been the most recent aggressor against these countries, hence why they are so enthusiastic about helping Ukraine.
Click to expand...
I suppose we could go through but I would say very few countries have been invaded less then Russia, and certainly when you remember that Russia as a country has existed much longer and with the corresponding sense of self, for a very long time, in comparison. Germany has existed only since 1870 and has only really been invaded once where the country paid a terrible price, at the end of the Second World War. I think you are absolutely wrong to say Russia has been the least invaded country in Europe. That is just wrong.
Again, this isn't justification this is explanation. It isn't to say Russia hasn't invaded others throughout history. But their war mentality isn't the product of nothing or a fatal flaw in their society. The U.S. helped grind two countries to dust including the use of nuclear weapons and became the World's Policeman because Japan conducted a sneak attack that killed like 2,500 people and led to a war that killed about 600,000 citizens. Russia still has living memory of the same war and they entered because of a sneak attack that ended up killing 20 to 30 million. These events shape policies and assumptions of countries and result in "never again" mindsets.
Click to expand...
I never said Russia has been invaded the least, only that all of Europe has basically been a battlefield for a thousand years. Russia invaded both Prussia and Austria-Hungary at the outbreak of World War 1. Their attacks were unsuccessful, but they were an aggressor there against what is now Germany.

And the former Warsaw Pact countries have very vivid memories of Russia attacking them (Poland and Finland were both invaded by Stalin while the Soviet Union was allied with Nazi Germany, before Hitler launched Operation Barbarossa). The Baltic states were annexed as part of the Molotov- Von Ribbentrop pact in 1940. Hungary was invaded in 1956. Czechoslovakia was invaded in 1968. Up until Gorbachev, there was a full expectation for any Warsaw Pact country that they would see Soviet tanks on their soil if they got out of line. There are a lot of people in that neck of the woods with very long memories, not just the Russians.
 
themeistersinger said:
Hot Diggity Dog said:
themeistersinger said:
Hot Diggity Dog said:
leftcoastguy7 said:
PSKOV, Russia - Pskov shopping mall manager Nikolai Rassadin said
"Russia is a country that for all of its existence has been at war,” War is in our blood." WSJ and paywall

Ok I agree with this 100% My question is WHY???
What exactly is your problem, Russia??!! Can't you chill out for a few hundred years??
Click to expand...
To be fair it isn't all their fault. They have been invaded by Mongols, Swedes, Germans (at least three times), Poles, Ukranians, Romanians, Turks, British, French blah blah blah. It is a rough neighborhood and it is a hard sell to say that it will never happen again.
Click to expand...
Is there any country in Europe that has been invaded less frequently than Russia? Maybe Switzerland because of its topography and its obsessive neutrality. UK because it is an island nation, but they've been in plenty of wars not on their own soil. Anybody else? The former Warsaw Pact nations have basically been a nearly constant battleground for counties near them. And Russia has been the most recent aggressor against these countries, hence why they are so enthusiastic about helping Ukraine.
Click to expand...
I suppose we could go through but I would say very few countries have been invaded less then Russia, and certainly when you remember that Russia as a country has existed much longer and with the corresponding sense of self, for a very long time, in comparison. Germany has existed only since 1870 and has only really been invaded once where the country paid a terrible price, at the end of the Second World War. I think you are absolutely wrong to say Russia has been the least invaded country in Europe. That is just wrong.
Again, this isn't justification this is explanation. It isn't to say Russia hasn't invaded others throughout history. But their war mentality isn't the product of nothing or a fatal flaw in their society. The U.S. helped grind two countries to dust including the use of nuclear weapons and became the World's Policeman because Japan conducted a sneak attack that killed like 2,500 people and led to a war that killed about 600,000 citizens. Russia still has living memory of the same war and they entered because of a sneak attack that ended up killing 20 to 30 million. These events shape policies and assumptions of countries and result in "never again" mindsets.
Click to expand...
I never said Russia has been invaded the least, only that all of Europe has basically been a battlefield for a thousand years. Russia invaded both Prussia and Austria-Hungary at the outbreak of World War 1. Their attacks were unsuccessful, but they were an aggressor there against what is now Germany.

And the former Warsaw Pact countries have very vivid memories of Russia attacking them (Poland and Finland were both invaded by Stalin while the Soviet Union was allied with Nazi Germany, before Hitler launched Operation Barbarossa). The Baltic states were annexed as part of the Molotov- Von Ribbentrop pact in 1940. Hungary was invaded in 1956. Czechoslovakia was invaded in 1968. Up until Gorbachev, there was a full expectation for any Warsaw Pact country that they would see Soviet tanks on their soil if they got out of line. There are a lot of people in that neck of the woods with very long memories, not just the Russians.
Click to expand...
What you said was Russia was maybe the 3rd least invaded country in Europe behind Switzerland and Great Britain. I would challenge that statement.

Yes, Russia has been an aggressor before, but every country there has been. But let's just do the 20th century for Russia to understand their point of view.
1904, Japan opens the Russian vs. Japanese war with a surprise attack on Port Arthur and Russia's Eastern Fleet. The result of this war was defeat, blocking the Russians from a warm water port in the Pacific and the emergence of a hostile Empire in Asia.
World War One ends in 1917 with the Germans getting control of the Ukraine, the Baltic countries, Finland becomes an independent country. This is only prevented from being permanent when Germany is defeated in 1918. They still lose Finland and the Baltic Countries.
Civil War breaks out and the Whites are supported with actual troops on the ground and supplies against the Communists.
1919 to 1921 Newly established Poland seeks to expand its borders east to take advantage of the Russian Civil War. At one point occupying Kiev. This is a back-and-forth war with Russians attacking Warsaw at one point but by the end Poland has pushed its borders further East. Ends 1922.
1939 Ribbentrop and Molotov pact. Spurned by France and Great Britain in its efforts to form an alliance against Nazi Germany and with a still hostile Poland, Finland, and the Baltic countries, on its Borders it makes a deal with the devil to get territory to protect its vital interior. If Germany would have been able to attack from positions further East like the borders of Poland and the Baltic Countries, they may very well have succeeded in capturing Moscow and Leningrad and won the war.
Then World War 2.
Then the Cold War.
Then the collapse of the Soviet Union and the slow March of the European Union and Nato into Eastern Europe. For what purpose?

Now yes that is the Russian point of view and covers up many cynical and horrible things that were done by the Russian Empire and Soviet Union. But many countries have done cynical and horrible things in service of defense of the country. From the Russian point of view this is a defensive war and if they lose it Russia will lose much more than the Ukraine. Most likely they would lose its influence in the Countries on the Turkey Border, in central Asia, and be open to Western influences it has resisted for like a century at least. Coupled with the Russian demographic collapse we could be looking at an end to Russia as anything more than a country centered around Moscow. Getting the Russians to accept that without a nuclear war is going to be the trick for the West and pressing too hard on Russia could be disastrous.
 
Since summer, about 800 T-62 tanks have been retrieved from Russian storage, the intelligence update said. Speculation that Moscow has tapped into its reserve of T-62s has been around since spring via video taken. These are 1960's tanks the production ended in the 1970's.
 
Hot Diggity Dog said:
themeistersinger said:
Hot Diggity Dog said:
themeistersinger said:
Hot Diggity Dog said:
leftcoastguy7 said:
PSKOV, Russia - Pskov shopping mall manager Nikolai Rassadin said
"Russia is a country that for all of its existence has been at war,” War is in our blood." WSJ and paywall

Ok I agree with this 100% My question is WHY???
What exactly is your problem, Russia??!! Can't you chill out for a few hundred years??
Click to expand...
To be fair it isn't all their fault. They have been invaded by Mongols, Swedes, Germans (at least three times), Poles, Ukranians, Romanians, Turks, British, French blah blah blah. It is a rough neighborhood and it is a hard sell to say that it will never happen again.
Click to expand...
Is there any country in Europe that has been invaded less frequently than Russia? Maybe Switzerland because of its topography and its obsessive neutrality. UK because it is an island nation, but they've been in plenty of wars not on their own soil. Anybody else? The former Warsaw Pact nations have basically been a nearly constant battleground for counties near them. And Russia has been the most recent aggressor against these countries, hence why they are so enthusiastic about helping Ukraine.
Click to expand...
I suppose we could go through but I would say very few countries have been invaded less then Russia, and certainly when you remember that Russia as a country has existed much longer and with the corresponding sense of self, for a very long time, in comparison. Germany has existed only since 1870 and has only really been invaded once where the country paid a terrible price, at the end of the Second World War. I think you are absolutely wrong to say Russia has been the least invaded country in Europe. That is just wrong.
Again, this isn't justification this is explanation. It isn't to say Russia hasn't invaded others throughout history. But their war mentality isn't the product of nothing or a fatal flaw in their society. The U.S. helped grind two countries to dust including the use of nuclear weapons and became the World's Policeman because Japan conducted a sneak attack that killed like 2,500 people and led to a war that killed about 600,000 citizens. Russia still has living memory of the same war and they entered because of a sneak attack that ended up killing 20 to 30 million. These events shape policies and assumptions of countries and result in "never again" mindsets.
Click to expand...
I never said Russia has been invaded the least, only that all of Europe has basically been a battlefield for a thousand years. Russia invaded both Prussia and Austria-Hungary at the outbreak of World War 1. Their attacks were unsuccessful, but they were an aggressor there against what is now Germany.

And the former Warsaw Pact countries have very vivid memories of Russia attacking them (Poland and Finland were both invaded by Stalin while the Soviet Union was allied with Nazi Germany, before Hitler launched Operation Barbarossa). The Baltic states were annexed as part of the Molotov- Von Ribbentrop pact in 1940. Hungary was invaded in 1956. Czechoslovakia was invaded in 1968. Up until Gorbachev, there was a full expectation for any Warsaw Pact country that they would see Soviet tanks on their soil if they got out of line. There are a lot of people in that neck of the woods with very long memories, not just the Russians.
Click to expand...
What you said was Russia was maybe the 3rd least invaded country in Europe behind Switzerland and Great Britain. I would challenge that statement.

Yes, Russia has been an aggressor before, but every country there has been. But let's just do the 20th century for Russia to understand their point of view.
1904, Japan opens the Russian vs. Japanese war with a surprise attack on Port Arthur and Russia's Eastern Fleet. The result of this war was defeat, blocking the Russians from a warm water port in the Pacific and the emergence of a hostile Empire in Asia.
World War One ends in 1917 with the Germans getting control of the Ukraine, the Baltic countries, Finland becomes an independent country. This is only prevented from being permanent when Germany is defeated in 1918. They still lose Finland and the Baltic Countries.
Civil War breaks out and the Whites are supported with actual troops on the ground and supplies against the Communists.
1919 to 1921 Newly established Poland seeks to expand its borders east to take advantage of the Russian Civil War. At one point occupying Kiev. This is a back-and-forth war with Russians attacking Warsaw at one point but by the end Poland has pushed its borders further East. Ends 1922.
1939 Ribbentrop and Molotov pact. Spurned by France and Great Britain in its efforts to form an alliance against Nazi Germany and with a still hostile Poland, Finland, and the Baltic countries, on its Borders it makes a deal with the devil to get territory to protect its vital interior. If Germany would have been able to attack from positions further East like the borders of Poland and the Baltic Countries, they may very well have succeeded in capturing Moscow and Leningrad and won the war.
Then World War 2.
Then the Cold War.
Then the collapse of the Soviet Union and the slow March of the European Union and Nato into Eastern Europe. For what purpose?

Now yes that is the Russian point of view and covers up many cynical and horrible things that were done by the Russian Empire and Soviet Union. But many countries have done cynical and horrible things in service of defense of the country. From the Russian point of view this is a defensive war and if they lose it Russia will lose much more than the Ukraine. Most likely they would lose its influence in the Countries on the Turkey Border, in central Asia, and be open to Western influences it has resisted for like a century at least. Coupled with the Russian demographic collapse we could be looking at an end to Russia as anything more than a country centered around Moscow. Getting the Russians to accept that without a nuclear war is going to be the trick for the West and pressing too hard on Russia could be disastrous.
Click to expand...
Not only that but it is all overly simplified with the boiling down supporting Russia. Such as the ridiculous demands in peace negotiations with the Japanese, the aggressive expansion of the Russian Empire leading up to war with numerous incidents such as the Tsushima incident and the ignoring the fact that Russia has no 'right' to a warm weather port in the Pacific. The entire push east was exerting 'sphere of influence' or outright taking over with territorial expansion.

Or the expansion of the EU which has no threat to Russia at all and NATO which is a purely defensive alliance that has gained members previously in the sphere of the Soviets because they feared Russian aggression. For what purpose? Look at Ukraine! Ukraine was given security assurances by the Russian Federation in exchange for giving up it's nuclear weapons. Look at Chechnya, Georgia and previously taking Crimea. What for?! Are you serious?! You think that the Fins, Swedes, Poles, Latvians, etc etc etc etc are all crazy and fear nothing? NATO is still viable and expanding BECAUSE of Russia.

How long has it been since you visited the motherland?
 
Chadstroma said:
These are 1960's tanks the production ended in the 1970's.
Click to expand...
I bet if you line up 20 of them, they all still lob things that go boom. Russia isn't going to win this war with technology. Ukraine might but Russia is gonna Russia and that means lots and lots of stuff, people, machinery, widgets.
 
www.cnbc.com

Russian jet downs U.S. Reaper drone over Black Sea

The U.S. called the downing of the drone by a Russian jet part of a pattern of reckless behavior by Russia.
www.cnbc.com www.cnbc.com

A Russian fighter jet downed a U.S. drone operating over the Black Sea on Tuesday, U.S. European Command said in a statement.

“Our MQ-9 aircraft was conducting routine operations in international airspace when it was intercepted and hit by a Russian aircraft, resulting in a crash and complete loss of the MQ-9,” said U.S. Air Force Gen. James Hecker, commander of U.S. Air Forces Europe and Air Forces Africa.


Prior to the collision, two Russian aircraft harassed the drone, he said.

“Several times before the collision, the Su-27s dumped fuel on and flew in front of the MQ-9 in a reckless, environmentally unsound and unprofessional manner,” the statement added.
Click to expand...

The incident “demonstrates a lack of competence” by Russia, the European Command said. The U.S> called the behavior “unsafe and unprofessional,” and part of a pattern of dangerous behavior by Russian pilots.

The MQ-9 Reaper drone system is designed to collect intelligence and carry out reconnaissance missions and is manufactured by General Atomics Aeronautical Systems.

The remotely piloted system can carry a combination of Hellfire missiles, Joint Direct Attack Munitions, and Laser Joint Direct Attack Munitions.
Click to expand...
 
"...the Su-27s dumped fuel on and flew in front of the MQ-9 in a reckless, environmentally unsound and unprofessional manner."

Gotta have priorities!
 
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