*** Official Russia vs. Ukraine Discussion - Invasion has begun *** (2 Viewers)

[Psychopav]

Thing the goal was to goad Zelenskyy into blowing up the deal. Trumps comment at the end about making good tv shows what the goal was and why this was played out in front of the cameras. Things were going ok until JD threw out the “not thankful” international law. comment knowing it would get under his skin. Yes he has some facial reactions that should have been controlled better, I’m not sure how easy that is when someone is belittling your efforts if the last 3 years after seeing/living in all the devastation of the war, all in all not a good look for either country.

The other weird things before everything went completely off the rails was when Zelinsky pulled out the pictures to show to Trump on camera. What was that about?

To show how Russians treat prisoners in violation of international law.

That turned the event from a discussion with the media to a confrontation with Trump in front of the cameras, and that's where I think Zelensky miscalculated.

 

[TennesseeJed]

I am a strong supporter of Ukraine but Zelenskyy messed up this meeting. You need to feed Trump’s ego and let him bash Biden, etc. the relationship is to important for Ukraine to not play by those rules and get in an argument.

Yes and no.

Long term, Ukraine needs the support of Europe more than it needs the support of the US.

The European reaction has been overwhelmingly positive.

For the US, this is one more step towards losing its voice in world matters - and maybe thats a good thing, only time will tell.

 

[Harry Manback]

So peace above all else, even if it results in the party who broke the peace being rewarded for doing so?

 

[[icon]]

Do we continue to support Ukraine in fighting a proxy war with Russia in hopes that Russia gives up before we run out of Ukrainians?

The inability/unwillingness to put forth an alternative end game is glaringly missing from all those denouncing the current (admittedly imperfect) peace initiative.

I think the endgame for Zelensky is complete withdrawal from Ukraine and Russia rebuilds Ukraine, or the destruction of Ukraine. He said as much during the press conference.

Has everyone watched all 50 minutes of the fireside chat? The last 7 minutes was a disaster, but Zelensky very much brought it to that point during the prior 40 minutes. Whatever objective he had going in, he did a terrible job.

I very much admire Zelensky for many reasons, not the least of which is his transparency, authenticity and honesty.

That said, in this particular instance IMO he needed to apply more of a "slippery statesman" skillset similar to what Macron and UK PM Starmer used in the days prior.

Evidently Zelensky and Starmer are meeting today so hopefully there will be some coaching in that regard. Unfortunately, a little sucking up and ego-flattery may be required to get this over the finish line.

I agree with this but also acknowledge we haven’t lived in this guys shoes watching his countrymen die and living like they have the last three years. Once JD started inserting himself and making some unnecessary comments, that is when Zelensky lost a bit of his polish.

JD addressed a reporter question, to the reporter, and nothing in his response said anything about Zelensky or Ukraine. Zelensky then initiated contact. That's not losing polish, that's royally ****ing up.

I don’t think we watched the same interview. What channel were you watching?

Video

Reporter asks question at 38:24
JD begins speaking at 39:59
Zelensky confronts JD at 40:35

I see a leader speaking outside his native language trying to very calmly explain that they’ve tried diplomacy. They tried a ceasefire and it showed Putin cannot be trusted as he invaded again.

Then JD got confrontational and shouted over Zelensky

Remember that saying about the definition of insanity?

Zelensky is smart enough to know a cease fire with Putin isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on, and will only serve as a chance for Russia to re-arm for the next attack.

Trump and Vance seem to lack that wisdom, and would be wise to listen to the voice of experience.

 

[Stoneworker]

I am a strong supporter of Ukraine but Zelenskyy messed up this meeting. You need to feed Trump’s ego and let him bash Biden, etc. the relationship is to important for Ukraine to not play by those rules and get in an argument.

Agreed. He should have understood he needed to brown-nose, and keep thanking. Clearly, he did not read the room. Hopefully everyone sees the gravity of the situation at hand and comes back to the negotiating table.

Brown nosing doesn't hurt. But if you watch the whole video (all 50 minutes) it's pretty clear that Zelensky is saying things that Trump believes is destructive to the negotiation. Hold aside whether you think Zelensky should say those things, or has a right to...this was about a lot more than brown nosing.

I watched the whole video. The conversation went off the rails when JD opened his yap.

I would agree with this. As others have said, it takes two to tango.

 

[uwillbsoon]

Thing the goal was to goad Zelenskyy into blowing up the deal. Trumps comment at the end about making good tv shows what the goal was and why this was played out in front of the cameras. Things were going ok until JD threw out the “not thankful” international law. comment knowing it would get under his skin. Yes he has some facial reactions that should have been controlled better, I’m not sure how easy that is when someone is belittling your efforts if the last 3 years after seeing/living in all the devastation of the war, all in all not a good look for either country.

The other weird things before everything went completely off the rails was when Zelinsky pulled out the pictures to show to Trump on camera. What was that about?

To show how Russians treat prisoners in violation of international law.

That turned the event from a discussion with the media to a confrontation with Trump in front of the cameras, and that's where I think Zelensky miscalculated.

By showing pictures? That's confrontational?

That was early on the conversation. Like during his opening statement where both leaders stated their goals. And he asked Trump if he could share them now and Trump said yes.

Trump didn't seem to care. Or view it as confrontational.

Edit to add: I rewatched it and Trump did really well with his opening statement, I thought. He got off track a bit blaming Biden, but that's Trump. He was careful with his words and didn't say some of the inflammatory things he's said in the past.

 

[Stoneworker]

So peace above all else, even if it results in the party who broke the peace being rewarded for doing so?

It's simply not living in reality to believe that the clock can simply be rewound four years.

 

[BassNBrew]

Do we continue to support Ukraine in fighting a proxy war with Russia in hopes that Russia gives up before we run out of Ukrainians?

The inability/unwillingness to put forth an alternative end game is glaringly missing from all those denouncing the current (admittedly imperfect) peace initiative.

I think the endgame for Zelensky is complete withdrawal from Ukraine and Russia rebuilds Ukraine, or the destruction of Ukraine. He said as much during the press conference.

Has everyone watched all 50 minutes of the fireside chat? The last 7 minutes was a disaster, but Zelensky very much brought it to that point during the prior 40 minutes. Whatever objective he had going in, he did a terrible job.

I very much admire Zelensky for many reasons, not the least of which is his transparency, authenticity and honesty.

That said, in this particular instance IMO he needed to apply more of a "slippery statesman" skillset similar to what Macron and UK PM Starmer used in the days prior.

Evidently Zelensky and Starmer are meeting today so hopefully there will be some coaching in that regard. Unfortunately, a little sucking up and ego-flattery may be required to get this over the finish line.

I agree with this but also acknowledge we haven’t lived in this guys shoes watching his countrymen die and living like they have the last three years. Once JD started inserting himself and making some unnecessary comments, that is when Zelensky lost a bit of his polish.

JD addressed a reporter question, to the reporter, and nothing in his response said anything about Zelensky or Ukraine. Zelensky then initiated contact. That's not losing polish, that's royally ****ing up.

I don’t think we watched the same interview. What channel were you watching?

Video

Reporter asks question at 38:24
JD begins speaking at 39:59
Zelensky confronts JD at 40:35

I see a leader speaking outside his native language trying to very calmly explain that they’ve tried diplomacy. They tried a ceasefire and it showed Putin cannot be trusted as he invaded again.

Then JD started acting like a toddler who had his cookie taken away

Remember that saying about the definition of insanity?

Zelensky is smart enough to know a cease fire with Putin isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on, and will only serve as a chance for Russia to re-arm for the next attack.

Trump and Vance seem to lack that wisdom, and would be wise to listen to the voice of experience.

Still can’t follow the rules and insist on taking a dump in J’s house. Please go cook some BBQ instead.

 

[HellToupee]

I am a strong supporter of Ukraine but Zelenskyy messed up this meeting. You need to feed Trump’s ego and let him bash Biden, etc. the relationship is to important for Ukraine to not play by those rules and get in an argument.

Agreed. He should have understood he needed to brown-nose, and keep thanking. Clearly, he did not read the room. Hopefully everyone sees the gravity of the situation at hand and comes back to the negotiating table.

Brown nosing doesn't hurt. But if you watch the whole video (all 50 minutes) it's pretty clear that Zelensky is saying things that Trump believes is destructive to the negotiation. Hold aside whether you think Zelensky should say those things, or has a right to...this was about a lot more than brown nosing.

I watched the whole video. The conversation went off the rails when JD opened his yap.

Rashomon . I see it starting to go off the rails when Zelensky interjects and completely explodes when he passively aggressively throws in the “speak very loudly”. It didn’t work. He screwed up and Donald should’ve shut both Zelensky and JD down and ended it until they were behind the scenes. Two to tango

 

[TennesseeJed]

So peace above all else, even if it results in the party who broke the peace being rewarded for doing so?

It's simply not living in reality to believe that the clock can simply be rewound four years.

The danger in this line of thinking is that it rewards countries that escalate tensions through violence.

Putin will be paying attention, China will have its eye on international expansion. Middle Eastern countries may also be interested in annexing some smaller, but wealthy, neighbors.


As a species we really need to get beyond territorial disputes/wars and learn to live and work together - that is progress. There are no actual lines on the globe - only man-made ones. We should all be working towards making the planet a better place - and not focused on one country over another. Every country is just temporary - but the planet is going to last a lot longer.

 

[Stoneworker]

So peace above all else, even if it results in the party who broke the peace being rewarded for doing so?

It's simply not living in reality to believe that the clock can simply be rewound four years.

The danger in this line of thinking is that it rewards countries that escalate tensions through violence.

Putin will be paying attention, China will have its eye on international expansion. Middle Eastern countries may also be interested in annexing some smaller, but wealthy, neighbors.

As a species we really need to get beyond territorial disputes/wars and learn to live and work together - that is progress. There are no actual lines on the globe - only man-made ones. We should all be working towards making the planet a better place - and not focused on one country over another. Every country is just temporary - but the planet is going to last a lot longer.

It's quite ironic to claim that achieving peace is a dangerous line of thinking...and then turn around and give a sermon about how we should all be trying to make the planet a better place

Yes. It's tragic that Russia invaded Ukraine. But for the most part they've been repelled and Ukraine should maintain its sovereignty.

So unless you're willing to put US and EU boots on the ground that will be the best possible outcome

 

[TennesseeJed]

It's quite ironic to claim that achieving peace is a dangerous line of thinking

Except that is not what was said...


Pursuing peace on terms set by the aggressors is dangerous.


Peace, in these circumstances should require a bit of give and take.

For Putin - I assume his non-negotiables are Crimea - since he needs a warm-water port for economic and military reasons, and a portion of Ukraine that has Russian roots - since that was the purported reason for the destruction of Ukraine.

So, let's say we give him those - what is he giving up in return? And what assurances will there be that Putin does not simply regroup, and attack again later? Right now, I don't see Russia giving up anything.

I would think a negotiated settlement along those lines would require a few things - first, would be economic - providing the resources for Ukraine to rebuild from the destruction - those costs should be borne by Russia - not the US, not Ukraine, and not Europe. Now, Russia may not have a lot of money, but they have natural resources to barter with.

The second non-negotiable from Ukraine should be NATO membership. That provides a better security agreement than was forced on Ukraine when she gave up nuclear weapons and military assets in exchange for "security" at the break of the Soviet Union. That agreement clearly did not work.

 

[Zeppelin]

So, let's say we give him those - what is he giving up in return? And what assurances will there be that Putin does not simply regroup, and attack again later? Right now, I don't see Russia giving up anything.

This is the biggest issue to overcome in my opinion.

 

[The Dude]

The second non-negotiable from Ukraine should be NATO membership. That provides a better security agreement than was forced on Ukraine when she gave up nuclear weapons and military assets in exchange for "security" at the break of the Soviet Union. That agreement clearly did not work.

NATO has to be included if you are Ukraine. Putin appears to be planning to come for more - its just a matter of when

 

[The Dude]

I don't know if its been mentioned but we should also be concerned about China. They would likely plan to fill the whole of US world leadership and become an economic powerhouse while doing so - while our economy suffers in the process

 

[fatness]

So peace above all else, even if it results in the party who broke the peace being rewarded for doing so?

It's simply not living in reality to believe that the clock can simply be rewound four years.

The danger in this line of thinking is that it rewards countries that escalate tensions through violence.

Putin will be paying attention, China will have its eye on international expansion. Middle Eastern countries may also be interested in annexing some smaller, but wealthy, neighbors.

As a species we really need to get beyond territorial disputes/wars and learn to live and work together - that is progress. There are no actual lines on the globe - only man-made ones. We should all be working towards making the planet a better place - and not focused on one country over another. Every country is just temporary - but the planet is going to last a lot longer.

It's quite ironic to claim that achieving peace is a dangerous line of thinking...and then turn around and give a sermon about how we should all be trying to make the planet a better place

That's not what was said. Most people want to achieve peace. He was questioning re-using a failed strategy to achieve it.

 

[Stoneworker]

I would think a negotiated settlement along those lines would require a few things - first, would be economic - providing the resources for Ukraine to rebuild from the destruction - those costs should be borne by Russia - not the US, not Ukraine, and not Europe. Now, Russia may not have a lot of money, but they have natural resources to barter with.

The second non-negotiable from Ukraine should be NATO membership. That provides a better security agreement than was forced on Ukraine when she gave up nuclear weapons and military assets in exchange for "security" at the break of the Soviet Union. That agreement clearly did not work.

With respect, it is sheer fantasy to expect Russia to either pay for war reparations or agree to NATO membership for Ukraine. The West has no leverage to force that without boots on the ground.

So if those are the terms, Russia will simply keep fighting the war.

And if the war continues, it has been strongly signaled that U.S. support will completely dry up. Zelensky has said flat out that Ukraine cannot win without US.

So then the Ukrainian people are at escalating risk to lose everything. Everything.

We can wish all we want for turning back the clock, but that is the reality of the here and now

 

[Stoneworker]

So peace above all else, even if it results in the party who broke the peace being rewarded for doing so?

It's simply not living in reality to believe that the clock can simply be rewound four years.

The danger in this line of thinking is that it rewards countries that escalate tensions through violence.

Putin will be paying attention, China will have its eye on international expansion. Middle Eastern countries may also be interested in annexing some smaller, but wealthy, neighbors.

As a species we really need to get beyond territorial disputes/wars and learn to live and work together - that is progress. There are no actual lines on the globe - only man-made ones. We should all be working towards making the planet a better place - and not focused on one country over another. Every country is just temporary - but the planet is going to last a lot longer.

It's quite ironic to claim that achieving peace is a dangerous line of thinking...and then turn around and give a sermon about how we should all be trying to make the planet a better place

That's not what was said. Most people want to achieve peace. He was questioning re-using a failed strategy to achieve it.

I've stated ad nauseum that some form of security agreement is paramount so have no idea what is this "failed strategy."

 

[Ridgeback]

Do we continue to support Ukraine in fighting a proxy war with Russia in hopes that Russia gives up before we run out of Ukrainians?

The inability/unwillingness to put forth an alternative end game is glaringly missing from all those denouncing the current (admittedly imperfect) peace initiative.

I think the endgame for Zelensky is complete withdrawal from Ukraine and Russia rebuilds Ukraine, or the destruction of Ukraine. He said as much during the press conference.

Has everyone watched all 50 minutes of the fireside chat? The last 7 minutes was a disaster, but Zelensky very much brought it to that point during the prior 40 minutes. Whatever objective he had going in, he did a terrible job.

I very much admire Zelensky for many reasons, not the least of which is his transparency, authenticity and honesty.

That said, in this particular instance IMO he needed to apply more of a "slippery statesman" skillset similar to what Macron and UK PM Starmer used in the days prior.

Evidently Zelensky and Starmer are meeting today so hopefully there will be some coaching in that regard. Unfortunately, a little sucking up and ego-flattery may be required to get this over the finish line.

I agree with this but also acknowledge we haven’t lived in this guys shoes watching his countrymen die and living like they have the last three years. Once JD started inserting himself and making some unnecessary comments, that is when Zelensky lost a bit of his polish.

JD addressed a reporter question, to the reporter, and nothing in his response said anything about Zelensky or Ukraine. Zelensky then initiated contact. That's not losing polish, that's royally ****ing up.

I don’t think we watched the same interview. What channel were you watching?

Video

Reporter asks question at 38:24
JD begins speaking at 39:59
Zelensky confronts JD at 40:35

I see a leader speaking outside his native language trying to very calmly explain that they’ve tried diplomacy. They tried a ceasefire and it showed Putin cannot be trusted as he invaded again.

Then JD started acting like a toddler who had his cookie taken away

Remember that saying about the definition of insanity?

Zelensky is smart enough to know a cease fire with Putin isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on, and will only serve as a chance for Russia to re-arm for the next attack.

Trump and Vance seem to lack that wisdom, and would be wise to listen to the voice of experience.

This.

 

[thecatch]

The second non-negotiable from Ukraine should be NATO membership. That provides a better security agreement than was forced on Ukraine when she gave up nuclear weapons and military assets in exchange for "security" at the break of the Soviet Union. That agreement clearly did not work.

NATO has to be included if you are Ukraine. Putin appears to be planning to come for more - its just a matter of when

I don't think that's necessarily true. There's been discussion of maintaining a permanent European peacekeeping force/military presence. If Europe writ large can get its act together, I don't think they absolutely have to have direct US involvement to deter Russia.

 

[[icon]]

Do we continue to support Ukraine in fighting a proxy war with Russia in hopes that Russia gives up before we run out of Ukrainians?

The inability/unwillingness to put forth an alternative end game is glaringly missing from all those denouncing the current (admittedly imperfect) peace initiative.

I think the endgame for Zelensky is complete withdrawal from Ukraine and Russia rebuilds Ukraine, or the destruction of Ukraine. He said as much during the press conference.

Has everyone watched all 50 minutes of the fireside chat? The last 7 minutes was a disaster, but Zelensky very much brought it to that point during the prior 40 minutes. Whatever objective he had going in, he did a terrible job.

I very much admire Zelensky for many reasons, not the least of which is his transparency, authenticity and honesty.

That said, in this particular instance IMO he needed to apply more of a "slippery statesman" skillset similar to what Macron and UK PM Starmer used in the days prior.

Evidently Zelensky and Starmer are meeting today so hopefully there will be some coaching in that regard. Unfortunately, a little sucking up and ego-flattery may be required to get this over the finish line.

I agree with this but also acknowledge we haven’t lived in this guys shoes watching his countrymen die and living like they have the last three years. Once JD started inserting himself and making some unnecessary comments, that is when Zelensky lost a bit of his polish.

JD addressed a reporter question, to the reporter, and nothing in his response said anything about Zelensky or Ukraine. Zelensky then initiated contact. That's not losing polish, that's royally ****ing up.

I don’t think we watched the same interview. What channel were you watching?

Video

Reporter asks question at 38:24
JD begins speaking at 39:59
Zelensky confronts JD at 40:35

I see a leader speaking outside his native language trying to very calmly explain that they’ve tried diplomacy. They tried a ceasefire and it showed Putin cannot be trusted as he invaded again.

Then JD started acting like a toddler who had his cookie taken away

Remember that saying about the definition of insanity?

Zelensky is smart enough to know a cease fire with Putin isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on, and will only serve as a chance for Russia to re-arm for the next attack.

Trump and Vance seem to lack that wisdom, and would be wise to listen to the voice of experience.

Still can’t follow the rules and insist on taking a dump in J’s house. Please go cook some BBQ instead.

Gotcha. Deleted the colored language around JD and went factual only.

The post is on topic

 

[[icon]]

I would think a negotiated settlement along those lines would require a few things - first, would be economic - providing the resources for Ukraine to rebuild from the destruction - those costs should be borne by Russia - not the US, not Ukraine, and not Europe. Now, Russia may not have a lot of money, but they have natural resources to barter with.

The second non-negotiable from Ukraine should be NATO membership. That provides a better security agreement than was forced on Ukraine when she gave up nuclear weapons and military assets in exchange for "security" at the break of the Soviet Union. That agreement clearly did not work.

With respect, it is sheer fantasy to expect Russia to either pay for war reparations or agree to NATO membership for Ukraine. The West has no leverage to force that without boots on the ground.

So if those are the terms, Russia will simply keep fighting the war.

And if the war continues, it has been strongly signaled that U.S. support will completely dry up. Zelensky has said flat out that Ukraine cannot win without US.

So then the Ukrainian people are at escalating risk to lose everything. Everything.

We can wish all we want for turning back the clock, but that is the reality of the here and now

I wish the option to put boots on the ground would be there. Europe is considering it, it seems. I do understand the lack of appetite for U.S. involvement.

I agree with you that it’s going to be tough to get Crimea or Donetsk back. Payback could be via not returning frozen assets but won’t cover it.

If not NATO then needs to be EU. They need security guarantees.

We are no longer trusted at our word even when formalized on paper. If not we all know Putin is going to make another pass at him and won’t underestimate them again.

 

[Tau837]

Educate yourselves.

This is such an arrogant, ******* comment. You can be better than this, and you should.

You're right, I'm sorry.

Sorry, GM, I overreacted. I shouldn't post at 2 am. Thanks for reacting better than I did.

 

[Harry Manback]

I don’t care what your politics are or what you think of this war - that press conference was embarrassing.

I for one am mentally prepared to be embarrassed for several more years.

 

[BrutalPenguin]

The EU is funding both sides of this war. They are not going to be the answer.

EU spends more on Russian oil and gas than financial aid to Ukraine – report

Europe estimated to have bought €22bn of fossil fuels from Russia in 2024 but gave €19bn to support Kyiv

www.theguardian.com

 

[Harry Manback]

The EU is funding both sides of this war. They are not going to be the answer.

EU spends more on Russian oil and gas than financial aid to Ukraine – report

Europe estimated to have bought €22bn of fossil fuels from Russia in 2024 but gave €19bn to support Kyiv

www.theguardian.com

This is highly misleading.

 

[BrutalPenguin]

The EU is funding both sides of this war. They are not going to be the answer.

EU spends more on Russian oil and gas than financial aid to Ukraine – report

Europe estimated to have bought €22bn of fossil fuels from Russia in 2024 but gave €19bn to support Kyiv

www.theguardian.com

This is highly misleading.

In what way?

 

[Dezbelief]

Russia says repelled Ukrainian drone attack on Turkstream pipeline compressor station

"In repelling the attack, Russian air defences downed three Ukrainian drones at a safe distance from the compressor station," the statement said, referring to the "Russkaya" station in southern Russia's Krasnodar region. "The compressor station is now carrying out the flow of gas on the...

www.yahoo.com

 

[Harry Manback]

The EU is funding both sides of this war. They are not going to be the answer.

EU spends more on Russian oil and gas than financial aid to Ukraine – report

Europe estimated to have bought €22bn of fossil fuels from Russia in 2024 but gave €19bn to support Kyiv

www.theguardian.com

This is highly misleading.

In what way?

Continuing to buy LNG and not immediately severing ties is far from the same thing as directly funding war efforts. This is a stream of finance that has existed for years, it does not offset net new funding to Ukraine and there are plans to reduce reliance on Russian LNG.

 

[Dezbelief]

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russian-drone-strike-hits-medical-facility-other-targets-kharkiv-mayor-says-2025-02-28/

 

[General Malaise]

Educate yourselves.

This is such an arrogant, ******* comment. You can be better than this, and you should.

You're right, I'm sorry.

Sorry, GM, I overreacted. I shouldn't post at 2 am. Thanks for reacting better than I did.

All good, my man. I was getting pretty chippy and needed to tone it back.

 

[FarFromHome]

Be interesting to know if Zelensky is taking heat to step down from those around him.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

According to the US Treasury Secretary, who was central in brokering this deal, this was the third time that Zelenskyy had refused to sign on the dotted line.

Not really surprising that patience with him had worn thin. Still unfortunate that it happened that way and that publicly - but it helps explain.

 

[McBokonon]

According to the US Treasury Secretary, who was central in brokering this deal, this was the third time that Zelenskyy had refused to sign on the dotted line.

Was it the same deal all three times?

 

[sho nuff]

According to the US Treasury Secretary, who was central in brokering this deal, this was the third time that Zelenskyy had refused to sign on the dotted line.

Not really surprising that patience with him had worn thin. Still unfortunate that it happened that way and that publicly - but it helps explain.

Was the first when they handed him a deal and wanted him to sign. Not negotiated the deal…just presented him the deal giving up mineral rights.

Did any deal contain the security assurances that he appears to be needing to make such a deal? Why would they then just expect him to sign?

 

[Harry Manback]

According to the US Treasury Secretary, who was central in brokering this deal, this was the third time that Zelenskyy had refused to sign on the dotted line.

Not really surprising that patience with him had worn thin. Still unfortunate that it happened that way and that publicly - but it helps explain.

To sign what? What were the terms? Why is he refusing?

 

[Andy Dufresne]

To my ears it was the same deal each time. Watch the video for yourself.

Treasury sec reveals Zelenskyy nixed Trump's mineral deal twice prior to Oval Office blowup

Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent revealed that Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy had already twice refused to sign a minerals deal with the United States.

www.foxnews.com

 

[Andy Dufresne]

To my ears it was the same deal each time. Watch the video for yourself.

Treasury sec reveals Zelenskyy nixed Trump's mineral deal twice prior to Oval Office blowup

Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent revealed that Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy had already twice refused to sign a minerals deal with the United States.

www.foxnews.com

Reading this, it admittedly doesn't sound that cut and dried.

Ukraine working on new potential deal with US over mineral resources: Sources

A U.S. official with knowledge of the negotiations said a new version of the deal between the two countries has been put on the table.

abcnews.go.com

Seems like the US side feels like it's a genuinely good deal for Ukraine and Ukraine maybe feels coerced. I think there's a giant communication breakdown going on.

 

[sho nuff]

Sounded like a very slanted version (which isn’t surprising given the interviewer or outlet). Also doesn’t seem like any deal was agreed upon or contained what Ukraine needs as far as any assurances. Was the administration expecting the cameras would pressure him into agreeing that which is not in his beat interest?

 

[Stoneworker]

To my ears it was the same deal each time. Watch the video for yourself.

Treasury sec reveals Zelenskyy nixed Trump's mineral deal twice prior to Oval Office blowup

Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent revealed that Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy had already twice refused to sign a minerals deal with the United States.

www.foxnews.com

Reading this, it admittedly doesn't sound that cut and dried.

Ukraine working on new potential deal with US over mineral resources: Sources

A U.S. official with knowledge of the negotiations said a new version of the deal between the two countries has been put on the table.

abcnews.go.com

Seems like the US side feels like it's a genuinely good deal for Ukraine and Ukraine maybe feels coerced. I think there's a giant communication breakdown going on.

The first time was definitely attempted coercion. Bessent put the document in front of Zelensky with very little notice and suboptimal terms then put immense pressure on him to sign. Zelensky appropriately said no and his team reviewed it and both sides refined it over the period of about a week.

I believe the second time was earlier last week when the document was ready and agreed to. The US wanted Zelensky to sign in the presence of Sec State Rubio and maybe Bessent. But Zelensky refused and instead wanted to come to the WH to sign, but also b/c he wanted to speak w/ Prez directly in another attempt to get assurances on an accompanying security agreement

The third time will live in infamy...but did not involve any changes to Version 2.0 to my knowledge

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Sounded like a very slanted version (which isn’t surprising given the interviewer or outlet). Also doesn’t seem like any deal was agreed upon or contained what Ukraine needs as far as any assurances. Was the administration expecting the cameras would pressure him into agreeing that which is not in his beat interest?

Disregarding that this does give some clarity on the viewpoint of the administration directly from someone central to the making of the deal.

It is difficult sorting through the trainwreck of the press conference to figure out what happened. Seems to me somehow someones thought Zelenskyy was ready to go through with a deal when he obviously (obvious NOW) wasn't. Hopefully once the fingers stop pointing things can progress from here.

 

[sho nuff]

Sounded like a very slanted version (which isn’t surprising given the interviewer or outlet). Also doesn’t seem like any deal was agreed upon or contained what Ukraine needs as far as any assurances. Was the administration expecting the cameras would pressure him into agreeing that which is not in his beat interest?

Disregarding that this does give some clarity on the viewpoint of the administration directly from someone central to the making of the deal.

It is difficult sorting through the trainwreck of the press conference to figure out what happened. Seems to me somehow someones thought Zelenskyy was ready to go through with a deal when he obviously (obvious NOW) wasn't. Hopefully once the fingers stop pointing things can progress from here.

Hard to comment without getting too political. I think they did expect he would agree to that which he already turned down.

 

[Navin Johnson]

I don't know if its been mentioned but we should also be concerned about China. They would likely plan to fill the whole of US world leadership and become an economic powerhouse while doing so - while our economy suffers in the process

We've been screwing things up pretty good for several decades. Maybe it's time to step aside and let someone else give it a shot

 

[uwillbsoon]

Sounded like a very slanted version (which isn’t surprising given the interviewer or outlet). Also doesn’t seem like any deal was agreed upon or contained what Ukraine needs as far as any assurances. Was the administration expecting the cameras would pressure him into agreeing that which is not in his beat interest?

Disregarding that this does give some clarity on the viewpoint of the administration directly from someone central to the making of the deal.

It is difficult sorting through the trainwreck of the press conference to figure out what happened. Seems to me somehow someones thought Zelenskyy was ready to go through with a deal when he obviously (obvious NOW) wasn't. Hopefully once the fingers stop pointing things can progress from here.

Hard to comment without getting too political. I think they did expect he would agree to that which he already turned down.

Are we sure he wasn't going to sign it? Seemed the plan was press conference, lunch, signing?

In the presser, he seemed to clearly be pushing for security - in the form of air support - in exchange for their drone technology. So maybe he wasn't going to sign.

The administration seemed to think he would, though.

But this is an interesting paragraph:

"Zelenskyy was due to meet two days later with Vice President JD Vance and Secretary of State Marco Rubio in Munich, Germany. But after Zelenskyy sent a revised proposal ahead of the meeting, Vance and Rubio threatened to cancel it, a Ukrainian official said. Zelenskyy's team asked them to read it first, the official said, and the meeting eventually went ahead. A U.S. official familiar with the discussions denied these details."

Based on how they interacted, it was clear Vance and Zelensky were not on good terms. I'm guessing there was some airing of grievances in that meeting.

And it explains why Vance out of the blue got mad at him for litigating in front of the press. They didn't want a counter proposal and got mad.

Also explains Zelensky's reaction to Vance's pontification about diplomacy. Because the US wasn't being diplomatic. They were trying to strong arm him by cancelling meetings with his counter proposals.

And this is a US ally. Talk about dysfunction.

 

[the moops]

I don't know if its been mentioned but we should also be concerned about China. They would likely plan to fill the whole of US world leadership and become an economic powerhouse while doing so - while our economy suffers in the process

We've been screwing things up pretty good for several decades. Maybe it's time to step aside and let someone else give it a shot

I think we have screwed things up plenty, but this is ridiculous. China and/or Russia are not what we want or need

 

[culdeus]

I don't know if its been mentioned but we should also be concerned about China. They would likely plan to fill the whole of US world leadership and become an economic powerhouse while doing so - while our economy suffers in the process

We've been screwing things up pretty good for several decades. Maybe it's time to step aside and let someone else give it a shot

Most of the screwing up is just meddling with world affairs. We finally get someone wanting to fight the bad guys for us (and it isn't Afghanistan) for 10c on the dollar and we can't wait to kneecap them.

 

[gianmarco]

Norway petrol giant refuses to refuel US Navy moving forward due to treatment of Ukraine by the US.

 

[fatness]

According to the US Treasury Secretary, who was central in brokering this deal, this was the third time that Zelenskyy had refused to sign on the dotted line.

Not really surprising that patience with him had worn thin. Still unfortunate that it happened that way and that publicly - but it helps explain.

I have no confidence that the US version of events is correct, due to all the incorrect information coming out of the US government lately about a number of important matters. And I don't think Ukraine will broadcast their own version of events because they're trying to build support and get help while their country is getting the **** bombed out of it. There was a severe breakdown in communication before the press conference, that's for sure, but I don't think there ever will be "one true version" of how that happened.

 

[fatness]

For those who think the press conference ambush of Zelensky was planned (and perhaps influenced by Russia), here's some fodder.

A TASS reporter was admitted to the press conference (Russian state media), and was only made to leave when someone recognized and reported him. TASS has been on the banned media list for years. And it's not like you can walk up to a White House press conference and let yourself in; it's a secure setting where the press have to prove who they are before getting in. Someone approved that reporter to attend. I doubt we'll ever know who or why.

 

[fatness]

But Zelensky refused and instead wanted to come to the WH to sign, but also b/c he wanted to speak w/ Prez directly in another attempt to get assurances on an accompanying security agreement

Thanks for that information, first of all.

To add to it, after the press conference blowup Zelensky wanted to keep the talks going. The request was turned down.