El Floppo
Footballguy
Pretty much agree- which is strange given the attacking mindset (historically) of the players in the starting 11.
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***Official Soccer Discussion Thread*** (3 Viewers)
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El Floppo
Footballguy
Ugh... what I've been trying to say about the game....The US started putting more pressure on the ball higher up and going after second balls for a couple of brief stints in the 2nd half- and they took over the game. If they had committed to that kind of game plan from the get-go, or after weathering the opening 15, and stuck with it to the bets of their fitness, I honestly believe they would have walked away with three fairly easy points. I do believe they are that much better than Honduras. But neither the commitment or the mindset were there, and THAT is the most disappointing thing for me from the game. I can accept poor touches and inability to hold the ball- I'm used to that. But this... ugh.
Mjolnirs
Footballguy
I don't have BeIN so I didn't get to watch how bad the US played today. But, I did record and watch the Germany v France friendly and at least that was an entertaining match.With the TV situation, without BeIN all of the away games in the hex will be unavailable for many. With ESPN now showing all Mexico matches though we should get that one right?
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Yes, ESPN acquired the rights to the US Mexico away game before they acquired the rights to the rest of the Mexican games.
Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
According to ESPN's Soccer Power Index (?), the US' chances of qualifying for the WC went from 62 to 52% today. 
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
The Jamaica, Panama, Costa Rica results do help some -- with no one getting three points.
I want to say 52% is low, but Nate Silver developed ESPN's power index for soccer and I expect it's in the ballpark.
Thought more about the game...
I don't think they were lazy and uninspired, I think they were confused. They didn't seem to know who was responsible for what. I liked the lineup selection, but in hindsight they weren't cohesive at all.
I want to say 52% is low, but Nate Silver developed ESPN's power index for soccer and I expect it's in the ballpark.
Thought more about the game...
I don't think they were lazy and uninspired, I think they were confused. They didn't seem to know who was responsible for what. I liked the lineup selection, but in hindsight they weren't cohesive at all.
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Steve Tasker
Footballguy
The CB (Cameron, I think? Gonzalez was on Bengston?) looked completely confused on that through ball for their 2nd goal. I wonder if Howard called him off. Horrible communication either way.
El Floppo
Footballguy
Definitely confused. Lots of looking around instead of acting.
Moe.
Footballguy
Sounds about right. If we can win all of our home games (I don't see any reason why we can't beat Mexico at home) then one win on the road should do it.According to ESPN's Soccer Power Index (?), the US' chances of qualifying for the WC went from 62 to 52% today.
The Gator
Footballguy
That home game needs to be as far norte as possibleSounds about right. If we can win all of our home games (I don't see any reason why we can't beat Mexico at home) then one win on the road should do it.According to ESPN's Soccer Power Index (?), the US' chances of qualifying for the WC went from 62 to 52% today.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
I taped the qualifier, but decided not to torture myself.I watched the Brazil / England friendly on replay instead. And that was an entertaining game. Other that a rough first 15 minutes getting into the game and a terrible five minutes adjusting to Brazil's high pressure at the beginning of the second half, England looked better than I've seen them. The starting midfield of Wilshere (who was titanic in the first half), Cleverly, and Gerrard worked great together. And Rooney was rocking the false nine. Kind of funny to see "dour" Roy Hodgson rocking an Ajax inspired 4-3-3, but it looked great. Walcott also played really well. Brazil also played well in spots, but Big Phil has his work cut out for him in cutting out the naive defending. They simply had no idea what to do when Rooney dropped deep and played 1-2's to overlapping runners.
That was a pretty fun game. Brazil looked almost as lost in the central defense as the US did yesterday.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
I wonder if we all need a bit of a reality check regarding the US? Many seem to think the US was preordained to win yesterday and it was only attitude/tactics/fitness/etc that kept them from winning. I think only one person predicted a possible loss yesterday in this thread. It could simply be that the US lost because the US is not a superior Concacaf side.I believe the US has improved over the years but the improvement has been small. But I also think the rest of Concacaf has been improving as well from top to bottom. Watching Panama yesterday was eye opening for me as they looked to be decent competent side, at least at home. I don't think the US is anywhere near superior enough in the hex to automatically assume qualification, at least for this cycle. I am still very hopeful the US will qualify but I think it will be a dog fight to the end and every single point should and will be scrutinized. The two teams who everyone hoped to get full points off of (Jamaica and Panama) showed last night that nothing will be easy.
AnchorageThat home game needs to be as far norte as possibleSounds about right. If we can win all of our home games (I don't see any reason why we can't beat Mexico at home) then one win on the road should do it.According to ESPN's Soccer Power Index (?), the US' chances of qualifying for the WC went from 62 to 52% today.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
We play Mexico at home in early September. Weather won't be a factor this time, like playing them in Columbus in February normally is.That home game needs to be as far norte as possibleSounds about right. If we can win all of our home games (I don't see any reason why we can't beat Mexico at home) then one win on the road should do it.According to ESPN's Soccer Power Index (?), the US' chances of qualifying for the WC went from 62 to 52% today.
The Gator
Footballguy
AnchorageThat home game needs to be as far norte as possibleSounds about right. If we can win all of our home games (I don't see any reason why we can't beat Mexico at home) then one win on the road should do it.According to ESPN's Soccer Power Index (?), the US' chances of qualifying for the WC went from 62 to 52% today.
yes
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
So who had the more disappointing result last night? The US or Mexico?I think an argument can be made that it was Mexico.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
I predicted a win, but admitted it was irrational confidence. I certainly think that the rest of CONCACAF have improved. And I know that Honduras is a quality side, playing at home. With that said, I honestly think that the US has the talent to start to expect to play well enough to beat a quality side playing at home. Admittedly, I haven't seen the game, but I'm a bit torn. On one side, I recognize that it's dangerous to throw an inexperienced back line in there in a tough early qualifying game like this. It's probably naive of JK to do it. But if the U.S. does manage to get through the hex, the upside in Brazil of a young and athletic backline with experience playing together could be huge (one caveat, because I think Castillo and Parkhurst are both capable, I'm beginning to really toy with the idea of playing Johnson in a more advanced role, because I still don't think he's a natural FB). I feel the same way about finding someone other than Bradley to play the 6. We know he can play the 6. But the US needs him forward to play better, even if there's a learning curve.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
I certainly think it was a bigger surprise even if I don't think the result is as dangerous. No, Mexico wasn't going to go 10-0-0. But it wasn't out of the question to think they'd go 5-0-0 at Azteca. And Jamaica is a team that I still don't think will come very close to qualifying.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
They put up a great stat last night late in the game once they realized the draw was likely and it showed how pedestrian Mexico's away record has been in qualifying, almost as if to point out that Mexico has traditionally needed close to 15 points at home. I could see some nervousness creeping in once they figure they have already dropped two at home and still have to host US, Costa Rica and Honduras. In the end though, this was simply Mexico being way too confident and Jamaica playing a very good game (the new guys looked very solid for Jamaica in the 30 minutes I watched).
jonessed
Footballguy
I don't follow the US as much as others, but the quality of play was pretty shocking. I really just want to see improvement. Some sense of progress with the US team. I really don't think we have advanced much in the last decade and that's a bit depressing.I remember cheering on a bunch of scrappers at the Rose Bowl in '94. That was almost two decades ago. On paper we have much better players now, but I'm not convinced the end product is much better. I'm beginning to understand what Klinsmann is talking about.
Moe.
Footballguy
Considering the result only (not necessarily how the teams looked) without question it's Mexico. Is losing at Honduras really that big of a deal? If we drop points at home to Jamaica I think everyone will (justifiably) start to panic. Not saying Mexico won't qualify as I'm sure they will but still. Mexico is good but I think we overrate them big-time here in this thread. There isn't really a huge gap between the six teams.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Those "bunch of scrapers" were much better than you remember I think and that group contained arguably the best generation of players the US has ever produced/borrowed.Off the top of my head that team had Wynalda, Ramos, Harkes, Stewart, Dooley, Friedel, Meola, Jones, Wegerle, Reyna and Caliguiri. Probably more hall of fame members in that group than is currently with the US now.
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Klinsman needs to pucker up and get him back on the squad. The US isn't good enough to get through without its best player.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
It has nothing to do with Klinsmann nor does it have anything to do with Arena. Until Landon starts playing at LA again, worrying about him for the national team is meaningless. I don't think he is going to out right retire but he still has not reported to camp yet and Arena expects him to be back "eventually", but who knows how much time he is going to take off. Best hope is that he is ready for US by the summer qualifiers.
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What is the reason then?
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
See above, I edited the post. I also responded to you the first time you asked yesterday.http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=305522&view=findpost&p=15290889
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NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Predicting Landon's actions has never been anyone's strong suit whether it be the media or fans like us. It became ubundantly clear last year when he did not let a single interview pass with out mentioning that he might retire this winter and move on to the next phase of his life, that he appeared conflicted with the sport at best and totally disillusioned at worst. I don't think Landon ever loved soccer the way most fans wanted him to.That being said I think he might play 2 more years and bow out at the end of he 2014 season.
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Yeah, I'm just trying to understand the reason behind this. It is the MLS offseason so I don't think it is odd he hasn't trained with a club since the end of it. Seems like his sabbatical is one from the national team.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
MLS training camps started up weeks ago. As for the reason, he is thinking about retirement from the sport, just google "Landon Donovan retire" to read the articles on his thought process. Most have been posted in the thread from last year when it all started with the interview with Wahl back in October with this quote and then he mentioned something similar in multiple interviews after that. Reading this quote below does not make it feel like it is just the national team he is avoiding but I guess it is up to ones own interpretation.
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Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
No one player will be a "savior" (unless Lionel Messi fakes his death and comes back with a US passport under the name Leo Messinger).Landon would be a nice piece, but it's still unclear exactly where to play him. And that's a problem with the US team in general. Dempsey probably needs to be played close to the goal because he does score regularly. But he also stops the ball a lot. I don't think he plays well with Jozy, but before Klinsmann, Jozy had an excellent goal scoring record with national team (and now has an excellent club scoring record). Jozy and Clint might Gerrard and Lampard for all I know. Maybe it can't work. Maybe it can if they're both central. But that means playing either a 4-4-2 or a 4-2-3-1, which would be a change in system. Klinsmann doesn't trust a dual pivot in the 4-2-3-1 (which is the formation I think works best for the Nats). He wants a dedicated 6 in front of the back four. If they play that formation (a 4-4-2), someone like Edu or Williams has to play, which IMO, means he's not playing his 11 best players. It also means that he either has to play a CM like Bradley or Jones on the flank, or sit one of them if he wants width.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
I think Mexico has earned their rep though. It is hard to see the following and not believe they are improving. Perhaps we do give them to much credit but I think we would be over the moon with some of these items for the US. U17 World Cup: ChampionsU20 World Cup: 3rd PlaceOlympics: Gold MedalQualifying: 6-0-0 record in last round
jonessed
Footballguy
I don't think Donovan wants to be a leader. His talent thrust him into the position and he relucatantly accepted, but I don't think he feels comfortable there.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
I think that is a fair assessment.
jonessed
Footballguy
On the international stage they were still scrappers.I think you proved my point anyway. Two decades later we are debating whether or not we have improved at all.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
I agree with your general point but disagree strongly with the notion that the US has much better players today than in 1994 as you claimed. We do not IMO. The US certainly has significantly more depth now than they did 20 years ago, but the apex of the talent has not changed in any measurable way. That goes from the seniors through the youth sides.
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sporthenry
Footballguy
Not to mention, for both of us going the same distance last WC, they had a much better showing. If I remember correctly, I believe Mexico was screwed by some calls against Argentina. And that doesn't include the Gold Cup where they thoroughly outplayed us after being up 2-0. I will agree that the gap between the 6 teams isn't huge. Honduras and Costa Rica are always there. US already lost to Jamaica is qualifying and last Gold Cup, we only beat Panama 1-0 on home turf. But the thing that seems to be holding Mexico back is just consistency. Last WC cycle, they fired Eriksson mid-qualifying. They always seem to have some controversy with who is in and out of the line up. You had Gio dos Santos threatening not to play and Vela maybe never playing again. And I guess this is the benefit of Donovan pulling this stunt in America where people don't care much. If he pulled this in England or Mexico or Brazil, he would be crucified by the media.
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CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Neymar failed to do anything to silence his critics. He's also been a huge disappointment on my son's FIFA 11 LA Galaxy team since we purchased him from Santos last summer (Juan Pablo Angel continues to steal the spotlight from Beckham and Landy). Loved Frankie's winner. If a Brazillian had scored a goal like that we'd be reading words today like "sublime" "genius" "creative" etc.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
I think there is a big difference between saying you don't want to play for your national team any more in your prime years vs thinking about retirement from the sport entirely when you are 30 in the media's eye. If Landon was 24 and said he only wanted to play club soccer, I think the media would be treating it differently than the way they are treating the full retirement talk IMO.
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jonessed
Footballguy
I think the rise in Brazilian club soccer has hurt the Brazilian national team. You have a lot of players that would have already moved up into bigger leagues sticking around and playing in Brazil.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Do you think Hodgens comments yesterday about Lampard may affect his choice of next team?
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
I don't really think our expectations are out of whack regarding the USMNT. The US should be the best or second-best team in the region - all the money, the infrastructure, the coaching - it's not a guarantee of success, but it should be a very disappointing thing when the US fails against CONCACAF opposition that isn't Mexico. On talent alone, aka "on paper", the US should have an advantage over every other team in the region other than Mexico. At the club level, only 3 players who played yesterday play in MLS, and the other 11 all play (and mostly make an impact) in arguably "better", more talented leagues. That's not taking anything away from MLS - MLS' quality is as high as I've ever seen it - but just a point that the US is producing quality talent. Like Andy said, other CONCACAF teams are getting better as well, but they're still not at the level that the US is capable of being at (if that makes sense).
I think it is foolish to expect to win/draw every game in the hex, but I don't think anyone here really thought that they were going to do that. We all know that road games in Central America are particularly hostile, that Central American teams play a notoriously violent game, etc. I also have my doubts about the communication of the US players and just how well some of the born-and-bred Germans are able to communicate with their born-and-bred American teammates. So there are certainly pitfalls, and every team goes through a rough stretch of games from time to time. Results don't always go your way, of course, and the best team doesn't always win. I don't think too many people would argue that the US is better than England, but they won the group at the 2010 Cup.
But that said, it will be absolutely embarrassing if they don't qualify for the World Cup. I know CONCACAF competition is better than ever, but so is the US. Anything less than qualification and they should be ashamed. They should realistically be the second-best team in the region, but the way they played yesterday....I wouldn't be surprised if they looked the worst (I didn't see the other games). That's not the real USMNT; that's not the way they're capable of playing. I just hope this was a wakeup call.
I think it is foolish to expect to win/draw every game in the hex, but I don't think anyone here really thought that they were going to do that. We all know that road games in Central America are particularly hostile, that Central American teams play a notoriously violent game, etc. I also have my doubts about the communication of the US players and just how well some of the born-and-bred Germans are able to communicate with their born-and-bred American teammates. So there are certainly pitfalls, and every team goes through a rough stretch of games from time to time. Results don't always go your way, of course, and the best team doesn't always win. I don't think too many people would argue that the US is better than England, but they won the group at the 2010 Cup.
But that said, it will be absolutely embarrassing if they don't qualify for the World Cup. I know CONCACAF competition is better than ever, but so is the US. Anything less than qualification and they should be ashamed. They should realistically be the second-best team in the region, but the way they played yesterday....I wouldn't be surprised if they looked the worst (I didn't see the other games). That's not the real USMNT; that's not the way they're capable of playing. I just hope this was a wakeup call.
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I agree that the 4-4-2 is a bad fit for the squad. I'm not even sure what the shape was yesterday as it seemed pretty confused. It did look better with the Edu for Williams swap. I haven't wathced much of Williams but I think Edu/Cameron should be prefered in the 6 since they both can drop well into the backline when needed. I think Fabian also needs to be more attack minded to pull it off.Hard to get around the lack of a creative midfielder.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
I think he's going to stay at Chelsea for another season. I'm biased and unsmart, but I also think he's better than Gerrard for England.
I think the talent level overall is lower, particularly in the attack.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Good post.I found it a bit ironic that MLS was responsible for the 3 man of the match performances yesterday in the 3 CONCACAF qualifiers, and none of them were US players. :(
It was also a bit disturbing that the out of season MLS based Honduran players performed better than the in season European US players.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
The goal was a little piece of brilliance. SuperFrank is the greatest goal scoring midfielder I've ever seen. I'm not sure I can think of anyone particularly close.I didn't like the cohesion in the offense as much after he came on, but it's hard to know how much of that is that Roy pulled the shape back a bit. Lamps also almost unleashed Lennon with a gorgeous 35 yard springing pass down the right flank, but Lennon was on his heels.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
For those of you who were disappointed in Chandlers performance yesterday (I thought he was beyond awful, even Costly made him look silly a couple of times), we may not be able to expect Cherundolo to ride in to help out in the March qualifiers.He has undergone arthroscopic surgery on his left knee and his return date is unknown.
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