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***Official Soccer Discussion Thread*** (3 Viewers)

Everton sucks right now and I'm not happy about it.

Only one of two EPL teams without a W. They should be ashamed of how they have performed, especially considering they started the same way last year.

 
Tough week for AFC Wimbledon. They lost 3-0 away at Luton to fall out of first place in the Conference. The real Dons have a huge home game Thursday night vs. Crawley Town with first place on the line.

 
Don't the Spanish coaches look so suave on the sideline? So smooth and cool compared to the stodgy old UK types...Sir Alex, Roy Hodgson, etc.

 
Steve Tasker said:
Don't the Spanish coaches look so suave on the sideline? So smooth and cool compared to the stodgy old UK types...Sir Alex, Roy Hodgson, etc.
Click to expand...
It helps that both Quique and Pep are fairly young.The Spanish press debate which one is more dapper, although Quique does have better hair.BTW all 3 subs have been used by Atlético.
 
The Z Machine said:
I think that Barça is more dangerous with Villa up top rather than Eto'o or Ibra.
Click to expand...
Messi has been the one really in the CF spot so far this year, but I agree that the front looks alot more lethal with Villa than the other two. He can finish like Eto'o but is much better at creating chances for others. He is a better fit than Ibra in just about every respect.
 
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Desert_Power said:
The Z Machine said:
I think that Barça is more dangerous with Villa up top rather than Eto'o or Ibra.
Click to expand...
Messi has been the one really in the CF spot so far this year, but I agree that the front looks alot more lethal with Villa than the other two. He can finish like Eto'o but is much better at creating chances for others. He is a better fit than Ibra in just about every respect.
Click to expand...
:unsure: All about the fit. I love Ibra, but oof- looked out of sorts with them. Villa could've scored 4 goals yesterday- love the way he's always slipping around the field and finds the most lethal space. helps that Xavi and Iniesta get him the ball too. And that Messi is distracting the opponent's D.
 
Debt, Lies, and Cowboys

England's greatest soccer teams and American owners, a match made in hell.

By Brian Phillips

Posted Monday, Sept. 20, 2010, at 10:02 AM ET

For the past two years, the home crowd at Anfield, the larger and more reliably histrionic of Liverpool's two major soccer stadiums, has increasingly come to resemble a Tea Party rally from another dimension. Populist chants echo from the stands; angry signs bristle like javelins. But where the American resentment machine is fueled by anger at what's seen as European-style socialism, the Merseyside protesters are incensed by what's seen as American-style capitalism. "Yankee Liar$ Out," the placards blare. "Thanks But No Yanks." Liverpool Football Club, one of the most successful teams in English soccer history, is owned by a pair of American billionaires, and the fans absolutely hate their guts.

It's the same at Manchester United, Liverpool's fierce rival, who beat the Reds 3-2 in a chaotic game on Sunday. By a weird quirk of destiny, England's two greatest soccer clubs have both fallen under the control of American tycoons of a peculiar carpetbagging sort. These minor billionaires have gone to England like backward colonists, looking to reap the bounty of the Premier League's soaring global popularity by taking advantage of its lax financial regulations. The standoff between the clubs' owners and supporters hasn't merely led to innovations in signcraft. It has also thrown an unwitting light on some big differences in the way English fans and American fans view sports.

To line up the protagonists: On the Liverpool side, we have Tom Hicks, the anvil-headed Texas billionaire previously best known for signing Alex Rodriguez to his $252 million contract, and George Gillett, the pinch-mouthed Colorado billionaire who formerly owned the Montreal Canadiens. Hicks and Gillett joined portfolios to buy Liverpool in February of 2007, bringing along the delightful Tom Hicks Jr., who served under his father as a director of the club until a minor lapse of protocol—he responded to a critical e-mail from a fan by writing "blow me #### face"—precipitated his tragic resignation earlier this year. On the Manchester United side, we have the Glazer family of Tampa, Fla. (and, by way of an afterthought, of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers), who snapped the world's most valuable club off the vine in 2005. United has won three Premier League titles and one European Cup since the Glazers arrived. A lot of fans hate them anyway.

The problem, in a word, is debt. The sales of both Manchester United and Liverpool were structured as leveraged buyouts—the owners borrowed money to finance their purchases, then transferred the debt back onto the clubs. This means, first, that the fans, those obliging trickles of revenue, are effectively being made to buy soccer clubs for owners they despise. It also means the clubs are gushing out millions of dollars each month in interest payments, money that might otherwise be used to help them compete in the cash-maddened upper echelons of the Premier League.

If numbers in sports can still stagger, there are staggering numbers on these clubs' balance sheets. Hicks and Gillett borrowed about $550 million to purchase Liverpool FC. At Manchester United, the Glazers borrowed more than $800 million, much of it from high-interest hedge funds. Liverpool has struggled to make its payments—the economic crisis hit both the club's and the owners' finances—and the Royal Bank of Scotland moved its share of the loans to the bad debts division earlier this year. After being rebuked by everyone from bank executives to the former owner of the club to Parliament, Hicks and Gillett have moved to find a new buyer, but so far no one's biting. Hicks is now pursuing a deal that would give him at least two more years at the club, and see the triumphant return of Tom Hicks Jr. The Glazers have held on more doggedly in Manchester, but United has seen its interest burden swell to $500 million—and the club's total debt has geysered into 10 figures. The angry fans' view of this American financial sorcery is neatly expressed by the billboards that a Liverpool supporters' group hung around the city: "Debt, Lies, Cowboys: Not Welcome Here."

It's hard to imagine that kind of thing happening here: American fans protest losers, not financial mismanagement. In the United States, we've accepted that teams are businesses, even if we don't always like it. We see owners as profiteers whose interests we hope will align with ours. When the Pittsburgh Pirates had their books forcibly opened last month, fans weren't upset to learn that the team turned a profit. Rather, they were outraged that Pirates ownership pocketed money while fielding a losing ballclub. The prevailing philosophy: Line your pockets all you want, just score some damn runs.

In Europe, by contrast—and especially in England, where the league system goes hundreds of teams deep and every dell and hamlet has its own club—teams are seen as something much closer to community institutions. Spiritually if not practically, every English club is the publicly owned Green Bay Packers. Owners are expected to act as responsible stewards of teams that really belong to the fans. The word franchise, relatively innocuous in American sports, is hotly offensive in England. Other American Premier League owners have adopted the English model and found favor with their supporters. Randy Lerner has generally won praise for his term at Aston Villa, and Stan Kroenke, the largest shareholder at Arsenal, is at least preferred to the predatory Uzbek oligarch Alisher Usmanov. But it's not a stretch to say that the Liverpool and United owners' chip-raking behavior—six separate members of the Glazer family have taken out more than $30 million in personal loans and fees from Manchester United, while almost doubling ticket prices—represents the American model at an advanced stage of development.

When the Glazers bought Manchester United, the nature of the deal was public knowledge, and they were loathed before the ink on the contracts was dry. Hicks and Gillett were more wickedly canny at Liverpool. They entered from stage left declaiming promises—that they would build a new stadium, that there would be no debt—then draped themselves in red cloth and went to games. By the time the facts were known, the deal had already gone through. They pantomimed sympathy for the English view of soccer clubs, waxing in the epic mode about tradition and loyalty. "We believe that as custodians of this wonderful, storied club we have a duty of care to the tradition and legacies of Liverpool," Hicks cooed. Then they shifted into American high gear. "Liverpool will be the most profitable investment I've ever made," that careful custodian of tradition later crowed in the Wall Street Journal.

The irony here is that the American-style rapaciousness of Hicks and co. would be more strictly regulated in the United States. The top American sports leagues operate as monopoly cartels, and the conduct of teams as businesses is thus subject to more internal oversight. The NFL, the NBA, and MLB all limit the amount of debt teams can carry. Revenue-sharing agreements and salary caps exist not only to ensure competitive parity, but also to guarantee some degree of financial stability. (All of that didn't stop Tom Hicks from driving the Texas Rangers into bankruptcy, of course.) In England, partly because teams are so tied to their localities, there's less top-level oversight. Clubs are allowed to act largely as they please, which opens a dangerous gulf between what fans expect owners to do (keep ticket prices down while safeguarding the club's viability) and what owners are allowed to do (pillage, strip-mine, rob trains). To be sustainable, this culture requires a sort of gentleman's agreement between owner and supporters, one that might work well enough when the owner is a product of the community, but that falls apart completely when Tom Hicks canters in with his six-shooter and squirts tobacco juice all over your club's native honor.

So it's fallen to the fans to protest, which they've done using imagery that's sometimes nationalistic, sometimes class-based, and sometimes a combination of the two. Liverpool supporters have adopted a quasi-revolutionary style, burning American flags and waving Communist-style red banners. At Manchester United, unhappy fans have taken to wearing green and gold, the colors of United's 19th-century progenitor Newton Heath, a club founded by railway workers. Against Liverpool on Sunday, United fans staged "Old Shirts Day," wearing club gear that was manufactured before the Glazers took over. They've also made "Love United, Hate Glazer" into an inescapable populist refrain, stickered on countless street signs and graffittied on numberless walls. (The walls of the club's English CEO, whose home was vandalized in 2008, got a simpler slogan: "Judas.") Where the green-and-gold protesters haven't succeeded is in convincing their fellow fans to stop buying tickets.

This, then, is the state of the Premier League at the moment. As the world's only ubiquitous sports league, it's attracted owners from across the globe, some profiteering capitalists, some idle oligarchs, some the royal family of Abu Dhabi. But as an outgrowth of the intensely local English league system, it relies on a core of fans many of whom resent seeing their clubs become playthings of global commerce. The Premier League is in a painful state of transition between two ways of thinking about sports, and as such it's both exploitative and ripe for exploitation. Paradoxically, the only thing that will keep the league from becoming more "American" is American-esque regulation, and until that arrives, its teams will go on being vulnerable to Glazers and Gilletts. America can provide the cowboys, but the Premier League is the real Wild West.
Click to expand...
http://www.slate.com/id/2267454?wpisrc=newsletter
 
El Floppo said:
Desert_Power said:
The Z Machine said:
I think that Barça is more dangerous with Villa up top rather than Eto'o or Ibra.
Click to expand...
Messi has been the one really in the CF spot so far this year, but I agree that the front looks alot more lethal with Villa than the other two. He can finish like Eto'o but is much better at creating chances for others. He is a better fit than Ibra in just about every respect.
Click to expand...
:excited: All about the fit. I love Ibra, but oof- looked out of sorts with them. Villa could've scored 4 goals yesterday- love the way he's always slipping around the field and finds the most lethal space. helps that Xavi and Iniesta get him the ball too. And that Messi is distracting the opponent's D.
Click to expand...
Distracting?Messi HAS TO BE the focal point of the defensive game plan. You could see Atlético pouncing on him, roughing him up and not letting him see the ball as much as possible.Villa is quick and can range all over the attacking field, slipping into spaces created by Messi, Xavi, and Iniesta. Those 4 are absolutely lethal when they are flowing together. Villa had some many great chances to score.The main issue I see is that they simply aren't a threat in the air. None of those players are any taller than what? 5'9"? That's why Piqué and Puyol come up into the box on corners. But that leaves very little on defense if the ball squirts out into the midfield.I wanted Atlético to take advantage more on the counters and in the air. Forlán and Kun can both run the break, not to mention Reyes and Simao and their ability to make great crosses and opportunities. Atlético played best when they were keeping Barça honest by applying pressure up top. Doing so with rapid and fast paced action is critical to beating them for the non-elite teams like Atleti. They didn't get very many break aways or counters that they needed to make a game of it.But that said, I think Atlético played pretty well overall, and you could see some quality players making an impact. Reyes has come into his own a bunch (although he does go down too easy IMO), and Ujfalusi is finally learning to work himself into the attack on the wing without getting too far out of position. Godín played well, but Perea... man i hate that guy. Seems like he's always out of position or making a stupid tackle, challenge, or foul. Atlético could really stand another quality CB that they can rely on not to be stupid.Oh and Raúl García leaves something to be desired in the central midfield. He's decent, but nothing spectacular, and even though he scores, he rarely provides much for the team.
 
The Z Machine said:
Distracting?Messi HAS TO BE the focal point of the defensive game plan. You could see Atlético pouncing on him, roughing him up and not letting him see the ball as much as possible.
Click to expand...
I disagree with this. Messi is great. And he'll get his. But Villa is also great. Pedro is just a smidge below great. You direct your defense to one point of that attacking trident, and you'll get killed.I think Xavi has to be the focal point of the defensive game plan. He's the trigger man. Someway, somehow, I think you need to get him off the ball in midfield. Because if he has time to take his pick of three guys who run as well off the ball as Messi, Villa, and Pedro he's going to pick you to pieces.
 
That Slate article perpetuates the most galling form of financial illiteracy. Man U and Liverpool's debt load may be a problem, but they have nothing to do with ticket prices.

Old Trafford sells out every game at the current prices. Does the author really think the Glazers would lower the prices if they had no debt to service, even if it doesn't result in selling one extra seat?

 
The Z Machine said:
El Floppo said:
Desert_Power said:
The Z Machine said:
I think that Barça is more dangerous with Villa up top rather than Eto'o or Ibra.
Click to expand...
Messi has been the one really in the CF spot so far this year, but I agree that the front looks alot more lethal with Villa than the other two. He can finish like Eto'o but is much better at creating chances for others. He is a better fit than Ibra in just about every respect.
Click to expand...
:lmao: All about the fit. I love Ibra, but oof- looked out of sorts with them. Villa could've scored 4 goals yesterday- love the way he's always slipping around the field and finds the most lethal space. helps that Xavi and Iniesta get him the ball too. And that Messi is distracting the opponent's D.
Click to expand...
Distracting?Messi HAS TO BE the focal point of the defensive game plan. You could see Atlético pouncing on him, roughing him up and not letting him see the ball as much as possible.Villa is quick and can range all over the attacking field, slipping into spaces created by Messi, Xavi, and Iniesta. Those 4 are absolutely lethal when they are flowing together. Villa had some many great chances to score.The main issue I see is that they simply aren't a threat in the air. None of those players are any taller than what? 5'9"? That's why Piqué and Puyol come up into the box on corners. But that leaves very little on defense if the ball squirts out into the midfield.I wanted Atlético to take advantage more on the counters and in the air. Forlán and Kun can both run the break, not to mention Reyes and Simao and their ability to make great crosses and opportunities. Atlético played best when they were keeping Barça honest by applying pressure up top. Doing so with rapid and fast paced action is critical to beating them for the non-elite teams like Atleti. They didn't get very many break aways or counters that they needed to make a game of it.But that said, I think Atlético played pretty well overall, and you could see some quality players making an impact. Reyes has come into his own a bunch (although he does go down too easy IMO), and Ujfalusi is finally learning to work himself into the attack on the wing without getting too far out of position. Godín played well, but Perea... man i hate that guy. Seems like he's always out of position or making a stupid tackle, challenge, or foul. Atlético could really stand another quality CB that they can rely on not to be stupid.Oh and Raúl García leaves something to be desired in the central midfield. He's decent, but nothing spectacular, and even though he scores, he rarely provides much for the team.
Click to expand...
I was talking about those three players relative to Villa's play/role. But allaround great posting, Z. I noticed their lack of dead-ball threat too.
 
El Floppo said:
The Z Machine said:
El Floppo said:
Desert_Power said:
The Z Machine said:
I think that Barça is more dangerous with Villa up top rather than Eto'o or Ibra.
Click to expand...
Messi has been the one really in the CF spot so far this year, but I agree that the front looks alot more lethal with Villa than the other two. He can finish like Eto'o but is much better at creating chances for others. He is a better fit than Ibra in just about every respect.
Click to expand...
:lmao: All about the fit. I love Ibra, but oof- looked out of sorts with them. Villa could've scored 4 goals yesterday- love the way he's always slipping around the field and finds the most lethal space. helps that Xavi and Iniesta get him the ball too. And that Messi is distracting the opponent's D.
Click to expand...
Distracting?Messi HAS TO BE the focal point of the defensive game plan. You could see Atlético pouncing on him, roughing him up and not letting him see the ball as much as possible.

Villa is quick and can range all over the attacking field, slipping into spaces created by Messi, Xavi, and Iniesta. Those 4 are absolutely lethal when they are flowing together. Villa had some many great chances to score.

The main issue I see is that they simply aren't a threat in the air. None of those players are any taller than what? 5'9"? That's why Piqué and Puyol come up into the box on corners. But that leaves very little on defense if the ball squirts out into the midfield.

I wanted Atlético to take advantage more on the counters and in the air. Forlán and Kun can both run the break, not to mention Reyes and Simao and their ability to make great crosses and opportunities. Atlético played best when they were keeping Barça honest by applying pressure up top. Doing so with rapid and fast paced action is critical to beating them for the non-elite teams like Atleti. They didn't get very many break aways or counters that they needed to make a game of it.

But that said, I think Atlético played pretty well overall, and you could see some quality players making an impact. Reyes has come into his own a bunch (although he does go down too easy IMO), and Ujfalusi is finally learning to work himself into the attack on the wing without getting too far out of position. Godín played well, but Perea... man i hate that guy. Seems like he's always out of position or making a stupid tackle, challenge, or foul. Atlético could really stand another quality CB that they can rely on not to be stupid.

Oh and Raúl García leaves something to be desired in the central midfield. He's decent, but nothing spectacular, and even though he scores, he rarely provides much for the team.
Click to expand...
I was talking about those three players relative to Villa's play/role. But allaround great posting, Z. I noticed their lack of dead-ball threat too.
Click to expand...
Not sure which team you are referring too, but I disagree either way(Alves and Forlan have to qualify as big dead ball threats).
 
scoobygang said:
The Z Machine said:
Distracting?Messi HAS TO BE the focal point of the defensive game plan. You could see Atlético pouncing on him, roughing him up and not letting him see the ball as much as possible.
Click to expand...
I disagree with this. Messi is great. And he'll get his. But Villa is also great. Pedro is just a smidge below great. You direct your defense to one point of that attacking trident, and you'll get killed.I think Xavi has to be the focal point of the defensive game plan. He's the trigger man. Someway, somehow, I think you need to get him off the ball in midfield. Because if he has time to take his pick of three guys who run as well off the ball as Messi, Villa, and Pedro he's going to pick you to pieces.
Click to expand...
Agreed, shutting down Xavi is key. Particularly when Iniesta is down with injury.
 
Desert_Power said:
Not sure which team you are referring too, but I disagree either way(Alves and Forlan have to qualify as big dead ball threats).
Click to expand...
Barcelona looked hopeless on attacking deadballs, and susceptible to defending them. I definitly don't mean hitting a good free-kick... I mean winning one in the air. :hot: hope that's clear. brain exploding.
 
Desert_Power said:
scoobygang said:
The Z Machine said:
Distracting?

Messi HAS TO BE the focal point of the defensive game plan. You could see Atlético pouncing on him, roughing him up and not letting him see the ball as much as possible.
Click to expand...
I disagree with this. Messi is great. And he'll get his. But Villa is also great. Pedro is just a smidge below great. You direct your defense to one point of that attacking trident, and you'll get killed.I think Xavi has to be the focal point of the defensive game plan. He's the trigger man. Someway, somehow, I think you need to get him off the ball in midfield. Because if he has time to take his pick of three guys who run as well off the ball as Messi, Villa, and Pedro he's going to pick you to pieces.
Click to expand...
Agreed, shutting down Xavi is key. Particularly when Iniesta is down with injury.
Click to expand...
:hot: but good luck with that. I just remember my Sneijder is best #10 in the world gaffe... lol- Xavi has my vote as best player in the world right now.

 
El Floppo said:
Desert_Power said:
Not sure which team you are referring too, but I disagree either way(Alves and Forlan have to qualify as big dead ball threats).
Click to expand...
Barcelona looked hopeless on attacking deadballs, and susceptible to defending them. I definitly don't mean hitting a good free-kick... I mean winning one in the air. :unsure: hope that's clear. brain exploding.
Click to expand...
Oh ok gotcha, I'll agree with that. I will point out, atleast in my point-of-view for watching nearly every match they have, Barcelona does score off of more set pieces than you would expect given their collective height.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Desert_Power said:
El Floppo said:
Desert_Power said:
Not sure which team you are referring too, but I disagree either way(Alves and Forlan have to qualify as big dead ball threats).
Click to expand...
Barcelona looked hopeless on attacking deadballs, and susceptible to defending them. I definitly don't mean hitting a good free-kick... I mean winning one in the air. :blackdot: hope that's clear. brain exploding.
Click to expand...
Oh ok gotcha, I'll agree with that. I will point out, atleast in my point-of-view for watching nearly every match they have, Barcelona does score off of more set pieces than you would expect given their collective height.
Click to expand...
No doubt.Puyol plays a LOT bigger than his height would indicate. We say that in the WC. Piqué is a big dude up there too, (and even though he pushed off to make that header) he has the handling skills to make something happen on corners.Yet, a lot of the scoring on set pieces doesn't come in the traditional sense, from a player rising above and striking a good header. Rather, they happen like Piqué did... ball comes down and Barça's players are quick enough and accurate enough to score on a ricochet / loose ball.Or maybe it's that the other team is tired from chasing those midgets around all game.Or maybe these players just have a nose for the net.
 
The Z Machine said:
Desert_Power said:
El Floppo said:
Desert_Power said:
Not sure which team you are referring too, but I disagree either way(Alves and Forlan have to qualify as big dead ball threats).
Click to expand...
Barcelona looked hopeless on attacking deadballs, and susceptible to defending them. I definitly don't mean hitting a good free-kick... I mean winning one in the air. :lmao: hope that's clear. brain exploding.
Click to expand...
Oh ok gotcha, I'll agree with that. I will point out, atleast in my point-of-view for watching nearly every match they have, Barcelona does score off of more set pieces than you would expect given their collective height.
Click to expand...
No doubt.Puyol plays a LOT bigger than his height would indicate. We say that in the WC. Piqué is a big dude up there too, (and even though he pushed off to make that header) he has the handling skills to make something happen on corners.Yet, a lot of the scoring on set pieces doesn't come in the traditional sense, from a player rising above and striking a good header. Rather, they happen like Piqué did... ball comes down and Barça's players are quick enough and accurate enough to score on a ricochet / loose ball.Or maybe it's that the other team is tired from chasing those midgets around all game.Or maybe these players just have a nose for the net.
Click to expand...
Agree with all of that. These guys are so good, that they're able to get the ball to where it needs to be for the smaller players to win it- which they often do because they're freaking amazing.But just saying- that game yesterday... full credit to AM for doing their best to pressure Xavi and his team-mates high up the field and/or rough them up if needed, but they were outclassed on the day and a great GK away from letting in a lot of goals. That said- it was still only a one goal game, and I definitely held my breath every free/corner kick, as that was an area... THE area... that AM had a distinct advantage.And funny to see Reyes playing- had completely forgotten about him since he left the EPL. How long has he been with AM?
 
Some random news

1) Vancouver Whitecaps are talking contract with Jay Demerit. Vancouver will join MLS next season

2) US is to play South Africa later this year (November 17)

3) Two big changes coming to MLS next year:

a) Season to expand to 34 games

b) Rosters to expand to 30.

This means a massive 150 new players in the league next season.

4) Klinnesman has had some interesting quotes yesterday. More info here including the full 18 minute interview http://soccer.fanhouse.com/2010/09/20/jurg...g-gig-criticiz/

"It's obviously always about authority when you have conversations with a club team or a national team. It's who has the last word in what issues, and that's where we couldn't get into the written terms. Verbally we agreed on that the technical side is my side and I should have 100 percent control of it, and written terms they couldn't commit to it. And then at that point I said, "Well then I can't get the job done because I have to have the last say as a head coach for my entire staff, for all the players issues, for everything that happens with the team. And unfortunately they couldn't commit to that and that was basically the end of our talks, and then they agreed then to continue with Bob as the head coach, and that's totally fine."

 
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hey guys- quick question for La Liga buffs...

Bigger rivalry:

Real Madrid v Barceona

Real Madrid v Atletico Madrid

The Barca version just got drafted in the greatest sports draft for best rivalry- but I thought, maybe mistaknly, that it was the Atleti version that bunched the collective Madrid fans' panties more.

 
El Floppo said:
hey guys- quick question for La Liga buffs...Bigger rivalry:Real Madrid v BarceonaReal Madrid v Atletico MadridThe Barca version just got drafted in the greatest sports draft for best rivalry- but I thought, maybe mistaknly, that it was the Atleti version that bunched the collective Madrid fans' panties more.
Click to expand...
The Old Firm trumps them both IMO as do Boca-River, Galatasary-Fenerbache, Lazio-Roma and a handful others
 
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