***Official Soccer Discussion Thread*** (4 Viewers)

[Ted Lange as your Bartender]

Here's an interesting what if question:

What does MLS 2011 look like if South Korea takes the cynical route and plays out a draw with Portugal in 2002, clinching advancement for both teams and eliminating the US at the group stage?

Are there 18 teams today, most playing in their own SSS? Does the league even survive? The league was still on shaky ground back then, and that QF run by the Nats, with a number of key players from MLS, was a gigantic turning point for the league and soccer in general in this country. Should we thank South Korea for all of this?

 

[NewlyRetired]

Good posting Ted.

I believe some of the young foreign talent is better these days. MLS certainly seems to have a real solid pipeline into Colombia of all countries. Have not done a count but there seems to be a ton of Colombian players in the league right now which is a welcome site considering their natural skill level.

The academies are going to be very important to MLS as it continues to strive for bigger items like the CCL in the need for added depth the squads. And the academies are producing some interesting stories. I believe I read last week that Dallas has a very good youth Mexican international in it's academy group now. The academies are certainly going to be more than just another avenue for American players it seems.

 

[Christo]

Well tickle my taint! My lads from Fulham have the pleasure of putting the last dagger in the Gunners' hearts this weekend!

Couple that with a Chelsea win over Everton and the Cottagers take 7th with a likely Fair Play spot in Europe next season

 

[NewlyRetired]

Here's an interesting what if question:

What does MLS 2011 look like if South Korea takes the cynical route and plays out a draw with Portugal in 2002, clinching advancement for both teams and eliminating the US at the group stage?

Are there 18 teams today, most playing in their own SSS? Does the league even survive? The league was still on shaky ground back then, and that QF run by the Nats, with a number of key players from MLS, was a gigantic turning point for the league and soccer in general in this country. Should we thank South Korea for all of this?

It is a question that has haunted me for years. And forget the fact that, god bless SK, even when approached at half time for the draw by Portugal in the tunnel, continued to play for the win. Even with the rare show of class in a corrupt sport, the fate of US club soccer may very well have been decided by one inch late in the game.If people remember, Portugal was pressing very late in the game for the draw. A shot hit off the inside of the left post, and went BEHIND the SK keeper rolling across the face of the goal. One inch more to the right and that goes off the post and in.

Damn it, you had to bring this up

The good will generated by the quarterfinal run after this one inch let off will never be known fully but the shear terror at thinking places like Portland or Seattle may never have been given the chance to germinate is downright scary.

Watch here at the 4:35ish mark. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-ZBagSjQxI

 

[Ted Lange as your Bartender]

CONCACAF Champions League draw. At first glance, Galaxy with the toughest draw of the MLS American teams. FC Dallas should be in good shape if they qualify for the group. Colorado and Seattle could go either way.

The Preliminary Round matches were drawn as follows (home team for first leg listed first):

Isidro Metapán (SLV) vs. CFU 1

Club Motagua (HON) vs. CSD Municipal (GUA)

Alianza FC (SLV) vs. FC Dallas (USA)

Santos Laguna (MEX) vs. CD Olimpia (HON)

Toronto/Vancouver (CAN) vs. Real Estelí/Walter Ferreti (NCA)

San Francisco (PAN) vs. Seattle Sounders (USA)

Monarcas Morelia/Pumas UNAM (MEX) vs. CFU 2

CS Herediano (CRC) vs. CFU 3

The four groups are as follows:

Group A

LA Galaxy (USA)

LD Alajuelense (CRC)

Monarcas Morelia or Pumas UNAM (MEX) / CFU 2

Club Motagua (HON) / CSD Municipal (GUA)

Group B

Colorado Rapids (USA)

Real España (HON)

Santo Laguna (MEX) / Olimpia (HON)

Isidro Metapan (SLV) / CFU 1

Group C

Monarcas Morelia or Pumas UNAM (MEX)

Tauro FC (PAN)

Alianza FC (SLV) / FC Dallas (USA)

Toronto or Vancouver (CAN)/Estelí or Ferreti(NCA)

Group D

Monterrey (MEX)

CD Comunicaciones (GUA)

Seattle Sounders (USA) / San Francisco (PAN)

CS Herediano (CRC) / CFU 3

The Caribbean Football Union's three representatives will be chosen from Alpha United (Guyana), Defence Force (Trinidad & Tobago), Puerto Rico Islanders (Puerto Rico Islanders), Tempete (Haiti), which are competing in the region's Club Champions Cup

 

[NewlyRetired]

CONCACAF Champions League draw. At first glance, Galaxy with the toughest draw of the MLS American teams. FC Dallas should be in good shape if they qualify for the group. Colorado and Seattle could go either way.The Preliminary Round matches were drawn as follows (home team for first leg listed first):Isidro Metapán (SLV) vs. CFU 1Club Motagua (HON) vs. CSD Municipal (GUA)Alianza FC (SLV) vs. FC Dallas (USA)Santos Laguna (MEX) vs. CD Olimpia (HON)Toronto/Vancouver (CAN) vs. Real Estelí/Walter Ferreti (NCA)San Francisco (PAN) vs. Seattle Sounders (USA)Monarcas Morelia/Pumas UNAM (MEX) vs. CFU 2CS Herediano (CRC) vs. CFU 3The four groups are as follows:Group A LA Galaxy (USA)LD Alajuelense (CRC) Monarcas Morelia or Pumas UNAM (MEX) / CFU 2 Club Motagua (HON) / CSD Municipal (GUA)Group B Colorado Rapids (USA)Real España (HON) Santo Laguna (MEX) / Olimpia (HON) Isidro Metapan (SLV) / CFU 1Group C Monarcas Morelia or Pumas UNAM (MEX) Tauro FC (PAN) Alianza FC (SLV) / FC Dallas (USA)Toronto or Vancouver (CAN)/Estelí or Ferreti(NCA) Group D Monterrey (MEX) CD Comunicaciones (GUA)Seattle Sounders (USA) / San Francisco (PAN)CS Herediano (CRC) / CFU 3The Caribbean Football Union's three representatives will be chosen from Alpha United (Guyana), Defence Force (Trinidad & Tobago), Puerto Rico Islanders (Puerto Rico Islanders), Tempete (Haiti), which are competing in the region's Club Champions Cup

Thanks, was just coming to post this myself. Still funny to look at these teams and not see Saprissa in the mix.Are the quarter finals still in the MLS offseason?

 

[NewlyRetired]

If RSL won the final, would they have had a slot in the CCL?

 

[Ted Lange as your Bartender]

If RSL won the final, would they have had a slot in the CCL?

I don't think so - There is no "holders" spot. Monterrey earned their way in again.

 

[El Floppo]

I guess I take a different tack. I absolutely think that a lot of the "stars" of the nascent MLS would have nowhere near the same impact in the league today. I don't think the MLS of 1997 was so much teeming with otherworldly talented #10s so much as midfielders in the nascent MLS were given way more time and space on the ball and facing much less tactically sophisticated defenders than their counterpoints today. In the same way, a guy like Roy Lassiter scored tons of goals in the early MLS, but he was one of the least tactically astute strikers I've ever seen. I've never seen a guy get caught offside more.

This is a good point. While I will still argue the number 10's back then were significantly better than today, I think it is also fair to say that they would not dominate like they did back then.Lassiter was absolute perfect foil for first Valderamma and then Etch in that he was strong and athletic and feasted on the service those wonderful players (with way too much space as you mentioned) were able to deliver. But yeah in general, Lassiter was not a great player by any means no matter how many goals he scored.

Easy to agree with Scooby- even though I think the game has changed a bit in general around the world (much faster), so it's hard to compare. But yeah- all those piss-poor players on the field made it easier for guys like those mentioned to shine. Plus, IIRC, those muck-abouts tended to not fly into tackles against the bigger names (as opposed to Beckham's first game, where he got clobbered)- it almost seemed like an edict from the brass, it was that obvious to me at the time... or maybe it was just an unspoken thing.And Valderama... sweet jeebus- the old goat. It was like he was tethered to a stake with a 5 yard chain- just put the ball within range for him and he ate everything up. Outside that radius- couldn't be bothered to run.Lassiter seems to me like a Taylor Twellman type guy who had a nose for the goal but wasn't what anybody would ever call a "class" player- so, IMO, that type of player hasn't changed that much over the years.

 

[El Floppo]

CONCACAF Champions League draw. At first glance, Galaxy with the toughest draw of the MLS American teams. FC Dallas should be in good shape if they qualify for the group. Colorado and Seattle could go either way.The Preliminary Round matches were drawn as follows (home team for first leg listed first):Isidro Metapán (SLV) vs. CFU 1Club Motagua (HON) vs. CSD Municipal (GUA)Alianza FC (SLV) vs. FC Dallas (USA)Santos Laguna (MEX) vs. CD Olimpia (HON)Toronto/Vancouver (CAN) vs. Real Estelí/Walter Ferreti (NCA)San Francisco (PAN) vs. Seattle Sounders (USA)Monarcas Morelia/Pumas UNAM (MEX) vs. CFU 2CS Herediano (CRC) vs. CFU 3The four groups are as follows:Group A LA Galaxy (USA)LD Alajuelense (CRC) Monarcas Morelia or Pumas UNAM (MEX) / CFU 2 Club Motagua (HON) / CSD Municipal (GUA)Group B Colorado Rapids (USA)Real España (HON) Santo Laguna (MEX) / Olimpia (HON) Isidro Metapan (SLV) / CFU 1Group C Monarcas Morelia or Pumas UNAM (MEX) Tauro FC (PAN) Alianza FC (SLV) / FC Dallas (USA)Toronto or Vancouver (CAN)/Estelí or Ferreti(NCA) Group D Monterrey (MEX) CD Comunicaciones (GUA)Seattle Sounders (USA) / San Francisco (PAN)CS Herediano (CRC) / CFU 3The Caribbean Football Union's three representatives will be chosen from Alpha United (Guyana), Defence Force (Trinidad & Tobago), Puerto Rico Islanders (Puerto Rico Islanders), Tempete (Haiti), which are competing in the region's Club Champions Cup

I always love seeing T&T names.

 

[El Floppo]

Great discussion Flop and Andy!For years I was a casual follower of MLS, wanting the league to succeed, watching the occasional games on TV but refusing to fully jump in and commit until Philly got a team (just stubborn I guess). I do agree with both you conceptually in that the league is deeper top to bottom than before, but there would still be places in many starting lineups today for some of the original pioneers like Valderamma, Etchevery, etc. As a Union fan I'd kill for one of those guys right now...I think where the league is head and shoulders better today (correct me if im wrong) apart from the marked improvement of the domestic players is attracting the young foreign players with upside - I'm thinking guys like Fredy Montero and Fabian Castillo, among others. It's also a savvy use of DP slots by clubs, though probably not the original intention of "the Beckham rule".And I really think this league can go much higher once the academy system takes off. We're at the the tip of the iceberg right now and have already seen some very good talent produced like Najar, Hamid, etc.

Good stuff. I seem to recall there always being CONCACAF players in MLS- Jamaican college teammates of mine younger brother played for the MetroStars for a bit. But maybe it wasn't as plentiful as it is today.Yeah- the academies have been working out fantastically, for club and country. Don't forget Agudelo is a product of the BullStars' academy too. I need to look more into how these things work, but I agree- now that we're seeing some positive results, it can only go uphill from there.I wonder though, if the single-entity ownership is ultimately the right system for growing the league beyond just being sustainable and into the viable, world-wide competitive league will all hope it can become?

 

[NewlyRetired]

I wonder though, if the single-entity ownership is ultimately the right system for growing the league beyond just being sustainable and into the viable, world-wide competitive league will all hope it can become?

I used to wonder about this too, but MLS is not the single entity league it was years ago. Teams are significantly more responsible for players now than back in the day.With so many new stadiums producing revenue that only the team benefits from and not the league, individual teams have more input and control thanks to the DP rule and the academy/home grown player rule. I fear though that MLS is nearing it's peak with the current model. The league likely won't be able to make the next leap with out real TV money and there is no indication that it is coming. Whether or not the league continues to be single entity should not affect things. In the end it will come down to the salary cap being able to significantly grow.

 

[Christo]

The Caribbean Football Union's three representatives will be chosen from Alpha United (Guyana), Defence Force (Trinidad & Tobago), Puerto Rico Islanders (Puerto Rico Islanders), Tempete (Haiti), which are competing in the region's Club Champions Cup

I always love seeing T&T names.

Sweet!

Defence Force F.C.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Full name Defence Force Football Club

Nickname(s) Teteron Boys

Founded in 1974, Defence Force F.C. is the nation's most successful football club, having won a total of 20 national championships. The first 15 titles coming in twenty-two season from the National League from 1974 to 1995, 2 titles in the Semi-Professional League between 1996 and 1998, and 1 championship since the Trinidad and Tobago league became professional in 1999 with the Pro League. They are also the only team from Trinidad and Tobago to have ever won the CONCACAF Champions' Cup, having won the title in 1978 and 1985. In 1985, Defense Force F.C. achieved the treble, winning the TT Pro League, Trinidad and Tobago Cup, and CONCACAF Champions Cup. They are the only team in the CONCACAF Federation to have achieved this feat.

Since the club is composed of the Trinidad and Tobago's protective forces, they are named Defence Force F.C. Usually included are officers, soldiers, and sailors from the Trinidad and Tobago Army and Coast Guard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_Force_F.C.

 

[El Floppo]

I wonder though, if the single-entity ownership is ultimately the right system for growing the league beyond just being sustainable and into the viable, world-wide competitive league will all hope it can become?

I used to wonder about this too, but MLS is not the single entity league it was years ago. Teams are significantly more responsible for players now than back in the day.With so many new stadiums producing revenue that only the team benefits from and not the league, individual teams have more input and control thanks to the DP rule and the academy/home grown player rule. I fear though that MLS is nearing it's peak with the current model. The league likely won't be able to make the next leap with out real TV money and there is no indication that it is coming. Whether or not the league continues to be single entity should not affect things. In the end it will come down to the salary cap being able to significantly grow.

And the salary cap will grow with... ? Increased revenues from TV? I'm hoping all the buzz that the EPL and La Liga are generating on ESPN will pull people more into soccer and MLS here... as with everything, this will take time and a still better product on the field (catch 22).

 

[El Floppo]

The Caribbean Football Union's three representatives will be chosen from Alpha United (Guyana), Defence Force (Trinidad & Tobago), Puerto Rico Islanders (Puerto Rico Islanders), Tempete (Haiti), which are competing in the region's Club Champions Cup

I always love seeing T&T names.

Sweet!

Defence Force F.C.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Full name Defence Force Football Club

Nickname(s) Teteron Boys

Founded in 1974, Defence Force F.C. is the nation's most successful football club, having won a total of 20 national championships. The first 15 titles coming in twenty-two season from the National League from 1974 to 1995, 2 titles in the Semi-Professional League between 1996 and 1998, and 1 championship since the Trinidad and Tobago league became professional in 1999 with the Pro League. They are also the only team from Trinidad and Tobago to have ever won the CONCACAF Champions' Cup, having won the title in 1978 and 1985. In 1985, Defense Force F.C. achieved the treble, winning the TT Pro League, Trinidad and Tobago Cup, and CONCACAF Champions Cup. They are the only team in the CONCACAF Federation to have achieved this feat.

Since the club is composed of the Trinidad and Tobago's protective forces, they are named Defence Force F.C. Usually included are officers, soldiers, and sailors from the Trinidad and Tobago Army and Coast Guard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_Force_F.C.

Joe Public is one of my favorite team names evah.

 

[NewlyRetired]

And Valderama... sweet jeebus- the old goat. It was like he was tethered to a stake with a 5 yard chain- just put the ball within range for him and he ate everything up. Outside that radius- couldn't be bothered to run.

Lol. So true. He literally ran less than any player in history but he some how always got the ball, and his incredible ability to shield still allowed him the time to make killer passes every where. His MLS tapes should be a class in how to conserve energy as a player. Next time US plays South Korea, they should send them a tape and watch them self combust in confusion

 

[NewlyRetired]

I wonder though, if the single-entity ownership is ultimately the right system for growing the league beyond just being sustainable and into the viable, world-wide competitive league will all hope it can become?

I used to wonder about this too, but MLS is not the single entity league it was years ago. Teams are significantly more responsible for players now than back in the day.With so many new stadiums producing revenue that only the team benefits from and not the league, individual teams have more input and control thanks to the DP rule and the academy/home grown player rule. I fear though that MLS is nearing it's peak with the current model. The league likely won't be able to make the next leap with out real TV money and there is no indication that it is coming. Whether or not the league continues to be single entity should not affect things. In the end it will come down to the salary cap being able to significantly grow.

And the salary cap will grow with... ? Increased revenues from TV? I'm hoping all the buzz that the EPL and La Liga are generating on ESPN will pull people more into soccer and MLS here... as with everything, this will take time and a still better product on the field (catch 22).

Yeah, really only tv revenue can help MLS take the next step and I don't see it happening. The great World Cup numbers have not translated. That is why I said the league is likely nearing it's peak. They have maximized the stadiums, sponsorships etc. Attendance could grow a bit but not enough to affect the cap significantly.I don't think La Liga or EPL is going to make too much of a difference as those audiences are even smaller than MLS numbers on ESPN.

 

[Ted Lange as your Bartender]

I wonder though, if the single-entity ownership is ultimately the right system for growing the league beyond just being sustainable and into the viable, world-wide competitive league will all hope it can become?

I used to wonder about this too, but MLS is not the single entity league it was years ago. Teams are significantly more responsible for players now than back in the day.With so many new stadiums producing revenue that only the team benefits from and not the league, individual teams have more input and control thanks to the DP rule and the academy/home grown player rule. I fear though that MLS is nearing it's peak with the current model. The league likely won't be able to make the next leap with out real TV money and there is no indication that it is coming. Whether or not the league continues to be single entity should not affect things. In the end it will come down to the salary cap being able to significantly grow.

And the salary cap will grow with... ? Increased revenues from TV? I'm hoping all the buzz that the EPL and La Liga are generating on ESPN will pull people more into soccer and MLS here... as with everything, this will take time and a still better product on the field (catch 22).

Yeah, really only tv revenue can help MLS take the next step and I don't see it happening. The great World Cup numbers have not translated. That is why I said the league is likely nearing it's peak. They have maximized the stadiums, sponsorships etc. Attendance could grow a bit but not enough to affect the cap significantly.I don't think La Liga or EPL is going to make too much of a difference as those audiences are even smaller than MLS numbers on ESPN.

It's possible they're at their peak, but increased TV revenue is a chicken or the egg thing. Continuing to improve the product and the fan experience increases eyeballs, live and on TV, which theoretically increases revenue. Problem is it takes time, years, decades even, to cultivate the fanbase and get MLS ingrained into their lives and viewership patterns. The one thing I hope the league doesn't do while seeking these increased revenues is get addicted to the recent wave of expansion fees as a means of income and start making short-sighted decisions and over-expanding the league. To their credit, every expansion team since 2005 with the exception of Chivas has been resounding success, though even Chivas was understandable at the time since it was another investor in the league when AEG and Hunt still owned a bunch of teams. Montreal should follow in those footsteps. Hopefully someone emerges soon as #20 because 19 teams is just a strange league size, but it is what it is. Don't add a 20th team just for the sake of it.After that I hope they stop growing for awhile and let these markets mature and grow. Hopefully the product continues to improve on the field (that includes the refs, another BIG reason why I hope they don't expand much more, the player pool isn't nearly as diluted with more teams as the ref pool is).I think the league is now in just about every part of the country they need to be (maybe the SE gets addressed someday). Next step is time for these fanbases to solidify.

 

[NewlyRetired]

World Football Challenge

Beginning on July 13 and concluding on July 30, four of the best soccer teams in Europe – Manchester United, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Juventus and Manchester City– will face top North American teams – Club America, New England Revolution, Los Angeles Galaxy, Vancouver Whitecaps, Toronto FC, Chicago Fire, Chivas and Chivas USA- at some of the most recognized stadiums across the U.S.

Under the agreement, ESPN will air more than 10 live matches of the tournament across four different platforms including: ESPN, ESPN2, ESPN3.com and ESPN Deportes.

 

[Ted Lange as your Bartender]

World Football ChallengeBeginning on July 13 and concluding on July 30, four of the best soccer teams in Europe – Manchester United, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Juventus and Manchester City– will face top North American teams – Club America, New England Revolution, Los Angeles Galaxy, Vancouver Whitecaps, Toronto FC, Chicago Fire, Chivas and Chivas USA- at some of the most recognized stadiums across the U.S.Under the agreement, ESPN will air more than 10 live matches of the tournament across four different platforms including: ESPN, ESPN2, ESPN3.com and ESPN Deportes.

Not listed above is that the Union-Real Madrid friendly you posted about here last week was finalized today. July 23 at the Linc.

 

[NewlyRetired]

World Football ChallengeBeginning on July 13 and concluding on July 30, four of the best soccer teams in Europe – Manchester United, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Juventus and Manchester City– will face top North American teams – Club America, New England Revolution, Los Angeles Galaxy, Vancouver Whitecaps, Toronto FC, Chicago Fire, Chivas and Chivas USA- at some of the most recognized stadiums across the U.S.Under the agreement, ESPN will air more than 10 live matches of the tournament across four different platforms including: ESPN, ESPN2, ESPN3.com and ESPN Deportes.

Not listed above is that the Union-Real Madrid friendly you posted about here last week was finalized today. July 23 at the Linc.

Sweet! What a great summer for people who want to see the big name teams.

 

[Steve Tasker]

Not to be a hater, because I do like the MLS, but aren't television ratings for soccer in the US (with the exception of the World Cup) horrible? I seem to remember not too long ago that primetime MLS games on ESPN/ESPN2 would routinely get smoked by equestrian events in the ratings.

 

[Steve Tasker]

World Football ChallengeBeginning on July 13 and concluding on July 30, four of the best soccer teams in Europe – Manchester United, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Juventus and Manchester City– will face top North American teams – Club America, New England Revolution, Los Angeles Galaxy, Vancouver Whitecaps, Toronto FC, Chicago Fire, Chivas and Chivas USA- at some of the most recognized stadiums across the U.S.Under the agreement, ESPN will air more than 10 live matches of the tournament across four different platforms including: ESPN, ESPN2, ESPN3.com and ESPN Deportes.

Not listed above is that the Union-Real Madrid friendly you posted about here last week was finalized today. July 23 at the Linc.

Sweet! What a great summer for people who want to see the big name teams.

How hard will it be to get tickets to the Union/Real Madrid game. Can't imagine it'll be sold out, right? I think it'd be easier to convince my friends to take a road trip to Philly to see RM than it would be to see the Colorado Rapids...

 

[Ted Lange as your Bartender]

World Football ChallengeBeginning on July 13 and concluding on July 30, four of the best soccer teams in Europe – Manchester United, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Juventus and Manchester City– will face top North American teams – Club America, New England Revolution, Los Angeles Galaxy, Vancouver Whitecaps, Toronto FC, Chicago Fire, Chivas and Chivas USA- at some of the most recognized stadiums across the U.S.Under the agreement, ESPN will air more than 10 live matches of the tournament across four different platforms including: ESPN, ESPN2, ESPN3.com and ESPN Deportes.

Not listed above is that the Union-Real Madrid friendly you posted about here last week was finalized today. July 23 at the Linc.

Sweet! What a great summer for people who want to see the big name teams.

How hard will it be to get tickets to the Union/Real Madrid game. Can't imagine it'll be sold out, right? I think it'd be easier to convince my friends to take a road trip to Philly to see RM than it would be to see the Colorado Rapids...

IIRC, Union-Man Utd got about 45k last year so prob not a sellout, though that was on the heels of much more soccer at the Linc (2 Union league matches and a US friendly). Also this is Real Madrid's only East Coast game so I wouldn't wait until the week of to get tix just in case.

 

[Good Posting Judge]

World Football ChallengeBeginning on July 13 and concluding on July 30, four of the best soccer teams in Europe – Manchester United, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Juventus and Manchester City– will face top North American teams – Club America, New England Revolution, Los Angeles Galaxy, Vancouver Whitecaps, Toronto FC, Chicago Fire, Chivas and Chivas USA- at some of the most recognized stadiums across the U.S.Under the agreement, ESPN will air more than 10 live matches of the tournament across four different platforms including: ESPN, ESPN2, ESPN3.com and ESPN Deportes.

Not listed above is that the Union-Real Madrid friendly you posted about here last week was finalized today. July 23 at the Linc.

Sweet! What a great summer for people who want to see the big name teams.

How hard will it be to get tickets to the Union/Real Madrid game. Can't imagine it'll be sold out, right? I think it'd be easier to convince my friends to take a road trip to Philly to see RM than it would be to see the Colorado Rapids...

IIRC, Union-Man Utd got about 45k last year so prob not a sellout, though that was on the heels of much more soccer at the Linc (2 Union league matches and a US friendly). Also this is Real Madrid's only East Coast game so I wouldn't wait until the week of to get tix just in case.

The good news is that because this is a meaningless friendly, Ronaldo will probably score like 7 times.

 

[TwinTurbo]

And Valderama... sweet jeebus- the old goat. It was like he was tethered to a stake with a 5 yard chain- just put the ball within range for him and he ate everything up. Outside that radius- couldn't be bothered to run.

Lol. So true. He literally ran less than any player in history but he some how always got the ball, and his incredible ability to shield still allowed him the time to make killer passes every where. His MLS tapes should be a class in how to conserve energy as a player. Next time US plays South Korea, they should send them a tape and watch them self combust in confusion

I remember meeting Valderama in the gym at a hotel in San Diego a few years back. He was jogging lightly on the treadmill, but in a way that made it look like the treadmill was doing most of the work.

 

[NewlyRetired]

And Valderama... sweet jeebus- the old goat. It was like he was tethered to a stake with a 5 yard chain- just put the ball within range for him and he ate everything up. Outside that radius- couldn't be bothered to run.

Lol. So true. He literally ran less than any player in history but he some how always got the ball, and his incredible ability to shield still allowed him the time to make killer passes every where.

His MLS tapes should be a class in how to conserve energy as a player. Next time US plays South Korea, they should send them a tape and watch them self combust in confusion

I remember meeting Valderama in the gym at a hotel in San Diego a few years back. He was jogging lightly on the treadmill, but in a way that made it look like the treadmill was doing most of the work.

 

[NewlyRetired]

Not to be a hater, because I do like the MLS, but aren't television ratings for soccer in the US (with the exception of the World Cup) horrible? I seem to remember not too long ago that primetime MLS games on ESPN/ESPN2 would routinely get smoked by equestrian events in the ratings.

Regular season MLS games on ESPN2 average roughly the same amount of viewers that regular season NHL games do on VS. But NHL's numbers grow a ton for the playoffs where MLS's do not. Also obvious is that the NHL has a million more time outs for commercial time allowing their relatively small tv ratings to still generate a healthy $200M a year TV contract.

Neither the NHL or MLS numbers are great but they are not horrible either. There is a reason there is a ton of soccer and hockey on TV every week and only a small handful of equestrian events on TV per year. You can't compare single events with league matches, they don't translate.

Remember that most times when the NHL, NBA or MLS play on national TV, many fans are busy watching their local sides which play at the same time taking away rating.

Also, not all soccer tv ratings are small, just the English language ones. The MFL general draws more eyes than MLS and EPL games combined.

 

[Steve Tasker]

Not to be a hater, because I do like the MLS, but aren't television ratings for soccer in the US (with the exception of the World Cup) horrible? I seem to remember not too long ago that primetime MLS games on ESPN/ESPN2 would routinely get smoked by equestrian events in the ratings.

Regular season MLS games on ESPN2 average roughly the same amount of viewers that regular season NHL games do on VS. But NHL's numbers grow a ton for the playoffs where MLS's do not. Also obvious is that the NHL has a million more time outs for commercial time allowing their relatively small tv ratings to still generate a healthy $200M a year TV contract.

Neither the NHL or MLS numbers are great but they are not horrible either. There is a reason there is a ton of soccer and hockey on TV every week and only a small handful of equestrian events on TV per year. You can't compare single events with league matches, they don't translate.

Remember that most times when the NHL, NBA or MLS play on national TV, many fans are busy watching their local sides which play at the same time taking away rating.

Also, not all soccer tv ratings are small, just the English language ones. The MFL general draws more eyes than MLS and EPL games combined.

I guess. Soccer just doesn't feel to me like a "casual fan" sport, though. I can honestly say that I don't know anyone that I would consider a casual soccer fan. I know diehards like myself, who'll watch a number of games a week and can hold an honest conversation about the game, and I know folks who'll only watch the World Cup (and a bit of the Euros). I don't know anyone in-between, save for people like "Good Posting Judge" who are actively trying to get into the game more.Perhaps it's because I live in a hockey market, but I'm by no means a diehard hockey fan and I'll still watch an occasional game on VS or NBC.

I think MLS really needs to hammer home the fanbases in Seattle/Portland/Toronto/etc. and the whole "overall experience" idea. There's a lot of soccer fans in this country (hell, in this thread) who watch the EPL all weekend and can't name an MLS player who doesn't play for the USMNT or isn't named David Beckham. MLS needs to reach these people first and foremost, IMO.

 

[NewlyRetired]

I think MLS really needs to hammer home the fanbases in Seattle/Portland/Toronto/etc. and the whole "overall experience" idea. There's a lot of soccer fans in this country (hell, in this thread) who watch the EPL all weekend and can't name an MLS player who doesn't play for the USMNT or isn't named David Beckham. MLS needs to reach these people first and foremost, IMO.

I am jaded. I don't think the "soccer snobs" are ever going to be reached. It would be awesome if all EPL fans and all MFL fans would watch MLS every week but for various reasons I don't see it happening. For the Mexicans, it is cultural, for the EPL fans it is the feeling of watching "the best league". I have been watching this dynamic for 16 years and very little has changed for tv even if I think the in stadium experience is the best it ever has been.

 

[LHUCKS]

I think MLS really needs to hammer home the fanbases in Seattle/Portland/Toronto/etc. and the whole "overall experience" idea. There's a lot of soccer fans in this country (hell, in this thread) who watch the EPL all weekend and can't name an MLS player who doesn't play for the USMNT or isn't named David Beckham. MLS needs to reach these people first and foremost, IMO.

I am jaded. I don't think the "soccer snobs" are ever going to be reached. It would be awesome if all EPL fans and all MFL fans would watch MLS every week but for various reasons I don't see it happening. For the Mexicans, it is cultural, for the EPL fans it is the feeling of watching "the best league". I have been watching this dynamic for 16 years and very little has changed for tv even if I think the in stadium experience is the best it ever has been.

fans will follow the players and players will follow the money. MLS has been increasing its revenue at a rapid pace...we'll see how long it can be sustained.

 

[Steve Tasker]

I think MLS really needs to hammer home the fanbases in Seattle/Portland/Toronto/etc. and the whole "overall experience" idea. There's a lot of soccer fans in this country (hell, in this thread) who watch the EPL all weekend and can't name an MLS player who doesn't play for the USMNT or isn't named David Beckham. MLS needs to reach these people first and foremost, IMO.

I am jaded. I don't think the "soccer snobs" are ever going to be reached. It would be awesome if all EPL fans and all MFL fans would watch MLS every week but for various reasons I don't see it happening. For the Mexicans, it is cultural, for the EPL fans it is the feeling of watching "the best league". I have been watching this dynamic for 16 years and very little has changed for tv even if I think the in stadium experience is the best it ever has been.

I think that the stadium experience thing is really important, though. I remember going to Buffalo Blizzard NPSL games when I was a kid, and of course I loved it, but there wasn't much of an atmosphere. When I first went to a TFC game though....wow. I was really in awe. It's one thing to see it on TV, but to actually experience it is completely different.I guess my point is that the MLS isn't going to win over the "snobs" with the play on the field; the MLS can't afford (both literally and figuratively) to go the NASL route. It's not an overnight thing, obviously, and sadly, some people will never care. But I think it is possible to get people watching by really highlighting the experience. It worked for me.That said, though, I've been to games in both Toronto and Chicago, and no offense Chicago fans (not sure if we have many...Christo?), but the atmosphere is completely the opposite. Going to the Fire game, while fun of course, wasn't the kind of thing that'd make a fan out of a hater. But Toronto (and, presumably, Seattle and Portland as well) is the kind of experience that can do that.

 

[bentley]

I think MLS really needs to hammer home the fanbases in Seattle/Portland/Toronto/etc. and the whole "overall experience" idea. There's a lot of soccer fans in this country (hell, in this thread) who watch the EPL all weekend and can't name an MLS player who doesn't play for the USMNT or isn't named David Beckham. MLS needs to reach these people first and foremost, IMO.

I am jaded. I don't think the "soccer snobs" are ever going to be reached. It would be awesome if all EPL fans and all MFL fans would watch MLS every week but for various reasons I don't see it happening. For the Mexicans, it is cultural, for the EPL fans it is the feeling of watching "the best league". I have been watching this dynamic for 16 years and very little has changed for tv even if I think the in stadium experience is the best it ever has been.

fans will follow the players and players will follow the money. MLS has been increasing its revenue at a rapid pace...we'll see how long it can be sustained.

Are you still taking requests to not post in threads?

 

[NewlyRetired]

I think MLS really needs to hammer home the fanbases in Seattle/Portland/Toronto/etc. and the whole "overall experience" idea. There's a lot of soccer fans in this country (hell, in this thread) who watch the EPL all weekend and can't name an MLS player who doesn't play for the USMNT or isn't named David Beckham. MLS needs to reach these people first and foremost, IMO.

I am jaded. I don't think the "soccer snobs" are ever going to be reached. It would be awesome if all EPL fans and all MFL fans would watch MLS every week but for various reasons I don't see it happening. For the Mexicans, it is cultural, for the EPL fans it is the feeling of watching "the best league". I have been watching this dynamic for 16 years and very little has changed for tv even if I think the in stadium experience is the best it ever has been.

I think that the stadium experience thing is really important, though. I remember going to Buffalo Blizzard NPSL games when I was a kid, and of course I loved it, but there wasn't much of an atmosphere. When I first went to a TFC game though....wow. I was really in awe. It's one thing to see it on TV, but to actually experience it is completely different.I guess my point is that the MLS isn't going to win over the "snobs" with the play on the field; the MLS can't afford (both literally and figuratively) to go the NASL route. It's not an overnight thing, obviously, and sadly, some people will never care. But I think it is possible to get people watching by really highlighting the experience. It worked for me.That said, though, I've been to games in both Toronto and Chicago, and no offense Chicago fans (not sure if we have many...Christo?), but the atmosphere is completely the opposite. Going to the Fire game, while fun of course, wasn't the kind of thing that'd make a fan out of a hater. But Toronto (and, presumably, Seattle and Portland as well) is the kind of experience that can do that.

If you think Chicago is bad try coming to the morgue some day here in Foxboro . You would never want to watch a game again.Best atmospheres are Seattle, Toronto, Portland, and Vancouver. Phili and DC can be crackling at times as well. If Dc had their own stadium, I think they would move up a notch to the upper tier.Houston has a better chance of a great fan base with their new stadium. I expect KC to have more fans with their new stadium, but be more of the sedate variety. Notice that all of those teams are new outside of DC. The new teams have launched very nicely, better than really any team ever has in terms of consistent solid fan support in stadium. Hopefully it continues. There are signs of cracks already in Toronto but year after year of a crappy team will do that to a fan base. No one who goes to a NE game today could ever believe we got 20k in the building almost every night back in 1997.

 

[bentley]

Also, I'm pretty sure that the EPL outdraws the MLS on TV. This article from December talks about the EPL passing MLS. Can't find anything newer, but there are several articles from this spring talking about record-breaking numbers for Premier League telecasts on ESPN2 and FSC.

 

[NewlyRetired]

I think someone mentioned the comparison between Nery Castillo and Freddy Adu. Castillo some how did it again in making Chicago not want him back. Like Freddy, the guy seemingly is loaded with talent and teams can't stop tossing him aside as soon as they can.

 

[LHUCKS]

There are signs of cracks already in Toronto but year after year of a crappy team will do that to a fan base. No one who goes to a NE game today could ever believe we got 20k in the building almost every night back in 1997.

why wouldn't MLS teams go through the same cycles of fan support that most other pro franchises do?

 

[NewlyRetired]

Also, I'm pretty sure that the EPL outdraws the MLS on TV. This article from December talks about the EPL passing MLS. Can't find anything newer, but there are several articles from this spring talking about record-breaking numbers for Premier League telecasts on ESPN2 and FSC.

It is pretty close over the past 5 years but the EPL did grow a bit. MLS numbers are also up this season for the few that have been reported. The recent Seattle Portland game drew about 350k viewers which is similar to an EPL game.Although to be fair, I think the EPL would do much better than MLS in a better time slot.

 

[NewlyRetired]

There are signs of cracks already in Toronto but year after year of a crappy team will do that to a fan base. No one who goes to a NE game today could ever believe we got 20k in the building almost every night back in 1997.

why wouldn't MLS teams go through the same cycles of fan support that most other pro franchises do?

They already have and likely will continue. It is the nature of the beast. Unfortunately MLS is not positioned quite the same way other leagues are. Fan support can cycle locally, but the national revenue driven by TV contracts is the golden support. MLS does not have that same support mechanism which is hampering it's growth of the salary cap.

 

[LHUCKS]

I don't really think MLS is competing with EPL as much as some posts are suggesting. Look at the passion for the local teams in Argentina for example.

I went to a Boca Juniors game in Buenos Aires in a year they weren't that good and the passion was off the charts...I see no reason why that kind of local support can't be built here in the states. Expanding to cities like Portland and Seattle is a good start.

You get the local support, revenues increase and over time MLS will be able to compete for talent...we are afterall the richest nation in the world and it's not close.

 

[Sebowski]

1) How has the quality of the MLS improved (if at all) since its inception? Someone on another board said it was comparable to bottom 2nd/top 3rd English football, did it used to be worse? What's the ceiling?

I would rate it slightly higher. Players like Howard, Bolden, Dempsey etc were good MLS players but by no means superstars in the league and they seem to be fitting in very well in the EPL.The worst MLS teams would probably be at the top of the 3rd tier in England. The best MLS teams I would put near the top of the 2nd division.

I have been following MLS for all 16 seasons. The quality has not changed a ton from the early days but it is slightly better today I would gauge, specifically in the depth of the American player.

As I just posted, I totally disagree with this.

People sometimes forget how good the early years were. The league today would kill for number 10's like Valderamma, Cienfuegos, Nowak, Etchevery etc. I would put the top DC teams of the 90's up against any of the good teams today.

Even though the talent was less deep back then, there were only 10 teams and it was much easier to have a good starting 11. Look at what DC put on the field. In their prime Moreno, Etch, Agoos, Pope, Sanneh, Lassiter and Diaz Arce, and still very good older players like John Harkes.

What many people remember were the dog days of the early 2000's when the league was at it's low point when the initial stars got old and the replacements were a disaster like Mattheus.

The league is INFINITELY better today than it was 10 years ago. But I still don't think the top of the league is better today than it was in 1996, 1997. DC/LA of those years I think would fair pretty well against RSL/LA/NY today IMO.

Those are the players I mentioned, and that's just one team, Andy. My opinion still stands- most of the rest were filled with just a couple of those guys and a bunch of wide-eyed, head-down, running-around types. I remember those days being really grim to watch as a cautiously hopeful, but still neutral former player. The stars were literally men amongst boys, and I- like the stars- just hoped the boys would stay out of things as much as possible. It had the feel of the pick-up games I'd play in after college, where there'd always be a few of us who had played a comparatively high level previously and the rest were HS level players or immigrants who never really played organized ball. We'd always find the other guys who could play and do our best to mitigate the others' inclusion.

No wonder its hard to get people to pass to me.

 

[NewlyRetired]

I don't really think MLS is competing with EPL as much as some posts are suggesting.

Not a single person is taking about competing with the EPL. We are talking about eye balls and the incredibly fractured soccer tv audience in the US and the affect it has on TV ratings which affects the lack of tv revenue (which is really the only way MLS can really make a step up).

 

[LHUCKS]

I don't really think MLS is competing with EPL as much as some posts are suggesting.

Not a single person is taking about competing with the EPL. We are talking about eye balls and the incredibly fractured soccer tv audience in the US and the affect it has on TV ratings which affects the lack of tv revenue (which is really the only way MLS can really make a step up).

I think you build the local fanbases before you start worrying about tv ratings too much. If you have 20 Portlands the ratings will come.

 

[NewlyRetired]

I don't really think MLS is competing with EPL as much as some posts are suggesting.

Not a single person is taking about competing with the EPL. We are talking about eye balls and the incredibly fractured soccer tv audience in the US and the affect it has on TV ratings which affects the lack of tv revenue (which is really the only way MLS can really make a step up).

I think you build the local fanbases before you start worrying about tv ratings too much. If you have 20 Portlands the ratings will come.

Here is a sobering thought for your plan. Soccer seems incredibly popular in Portland right? The recent Portland Seattle game was termed the biggest soccer game in decades from the local media.A grand total of 23k households in Portland watched that away game in Seattle. That is in a city of 1,197,780 tv households.~34k people viewed the game in Portland, less than was even in the stadium itself.I also don't think you have a grasp of the details. When ESPN signed the deal with MLS their goal was to grow the audience to 1 million viewers per game. They were 1/4 of that last season. The contract is up in 3 years. Unless you know something we don't, there are not going to be 20 Portland's in that time frame. Garber knows this, which is why he continues to leave the door open for the Cosmos which if done correctly, could deliver the NY market like the NJ MetroBulls never could dream of.I am unsure what the future holds. I don't know if ESPN is going to reup. I doubt MLS wants to return to time buys either.

 

[Christo]

That said, though, I've been to games in both Toronto and Chicago, and no offense Chicago fans (not sure if we have many...Christo?), but the atmosphere is completely the opposite. Going to the Fire game, while fun of course, wasn't the kind of thing that'd make a fan out of a hater. But Toronto (and, presumably, Seattle and Portland as well) is the kind of experience that can do that.

Other than Section 8, it's pretty tame.

 

[LHUCKS]

Here is a sobering thought for your plan. Soccer seems incredibly popular in Portland right? The recent Portland Seattle game was termed the biggest soccer game in decades from the local media.A grand total of 23k households in Portland watched that away game in Seattle. That is in a city of 1,197,780 tv households.~34k people viewed the game in Portland, less than was even in the stadium itself.I also don't think you have a grasp of the details. When ESPN signed the deal with MLS their goal was to grow the audience to 1 million viewers per game. They were 1/4 of that last season. The contract is up in 3 years. Unless you know something we don't, there are not going to be 20 Portland's in that time frame. Garber knows this, which is why he continues to leave the door open for the Cosmos which if done correctly, could deliver the NY market like the NJ MetroBulls never could dream of.I am unsure what the future holds. I don't know if ESPN is going to reup. I doubt MLS wants to return to time buys either.

that is rather sobering

 

[GoFishTN]

I don't really think MLS is competing with EPL as much as some posts are suggesting.

Not a single person is taking about competing with the EPL. We are talking about eye balls and the incredibly fractured soccer tv audience in the US and the affect it has on TV ratings which affects the lack of tv revenue (which is really the only way MLS can really make a step up).

I think you build the local fanbases before you start worrying about tv ratings too much. If you have 20 Portlands the ratings will come.

Here is a sobering thought for your plan. Soccer seems incredibly popular in Portland right? The recent Portland Seattle game was termed the biggest soccer game in decades from the local media.A grand total of 23k households in Portland watched that away game in Seattle. That is in a city of 1,197,780 tv households.~34k people viewed the game in Portland, less than was even in the stadium itself.I also don't think you have a grasp of the details. When ESPN signed the deal with MLS their goal was to grow the audience to 1 million viewers per game. They were 1/4 of that last season. The contract is up in 3 years. Unless you know something we don't, there are not going to be 20 Portland's in that time frame. Garber knows this, which is why he continues to leave the door open for the Cosmos which if done correctly, could deliver the NY market like the NJ MetroBulls never could dream of.I am unsure what the future holds. I don't know if ESPN is going to reup. I doubt MLS wants to return to time buys either.

Aren't MLS games tied up with the World Cup rights in SUM?

 

[NewlyRetired]

I don't really think MLS is competing with EPL as much as some posts are suggesting.

Not a single person is taking about competing with the EPL. We are talking about eye balls and the incredibly fractured soccer tv audience in the US and the affect it has on TV ratings which affects the lack of tv revenue (which is really the only way MLS can really make a step up).

I think you build the local fanbases before you start worrying about tv ratings too much. If you have 20 Portlands the ratings will come.

Here is a sobering thought for your plan. Soccer seems incredibly popular in Portland right? The recent Portland Seattle game was termed the biggest soccer game in decades from the local media.A grand total of 23k households in Portland watched that away game in Seattle. That is in a city of 1,197,780 tv households.~34k people viewed the game in Portland, less than was even in the stadium itself.I also don't think you have a grasp of the details. When ESPN signed the deal with MLS their goal was to grow the audience to 1 million viewers per game. They were 1/4 of that last season. The contract is up in 3 years. Unless you know something we don't, there are not going to be 20 Portland's in that time frame. Garber knows this, which is why he continues to leave the door open for the Cosmos which if done correctly, could deliver the NY market like the NJ MetroBulls never could dream of.I am unsure what the future holds. I don't know if ESPN is going to reup. I doubt MLS wants to return to time buys either.

Aren't MLS games tied up with the World Cup rights in SUM?

Pretty much. The deal was signed in 2006 and will expire in 2014 for both World Cup and MLS rights.

 

[GoFishTN]

I don't really think MLS is competing with EPL as much as some posts are suggesting.

Not a single person is taking about competing with the EPL. We are talking about eye balls and the incredibly fractured soccer tv audience in the US and the affect it has on TV ratings which affects the lack of tv revenue (which is really the only way MLS can really make a step up).

I think you build the local fanbases before you start worrying about tv ratings too much. If you have 20 Portlands the ratings will come.

Here is a sobering thought for your plan. Soccer seems incredibly popular in Portland right? The recent Portland Seattle game was termed the biggest soccer game in decades from the local media.A grand total of 23k households in Portland watched that away game in Seattle. That is in a city of 1,197,780 tv households.~34k people viewed the game in Portland, less than was even in the stadium itself.I also don't think you have a grasp of the details. When ESPN signed the deal with MLS their goal was to grow the audience to 1 million viewers per game. They were 1/4 of that last season. The contract is up in 3 years. Unless you know something we don't, there are not going to be 20 Portland's in that time frame. Garber knows this, which is why he continues to leave the door open for the Cosmos which if done correctly, could deliver the NY market like the NJ MetroBulls never could dream of.I am unsure what the future holds. I don't know if ESPN is going to reup. I doubt MLS wants to return to time buys either.

Aren't MLS games tied up with the World Cup rights in SUM?

Pretty much. The deal was signed in 2006 and will expire in 2014 for both World Cup and MLS rights.

I'm sure ESPN will want the World Cup back. So, I assume that means they continue with MLS.

 

[NewlyRetired]

I don't really think MLS is competing with EPL as much as some posts are suggesting.

Not a single person is taking about competing with the EPL. We are talking about eye balls and the incredibly fractured soccer tv audience in the US and the affect it has on TV ratings which affects the lack of tv revenue (which is really the only way MLS can really make a step up).

I think you build the local fanbases before you start worrying about tv ratings too much. If you have 20 Portlands the ratings will come.

Here is a sobering thought for your plan. Soccer seems incredibly popular in Portland right? The recent Portland Seattle game was termed the biggest soccer game in decades from the local media.A grand total of 23k households in Portland watched that away game in Seattle. That is in a city of 1,197,780 tv households.~34k people viewed the game in Portland, less than was even in the stadium itself.I also don't think you have a grasp of the details. When ESPN signed the deal with MLS their goal was to grow the audience to 1 million viewers per game. They were 1/4 of that last season. The contract is up in 3 years. Unless you know something we don't, there are not going to be 20 Portland's in that time frame. Garber knows this, which is why he continues to leave the door open for the Cosmos which if done correctly, could deliver the NY market like the NJ MetroBulls never could dream of.I am unsure what the future holds. I don't know if ESPN is going to reup. I doubt MLS wants to return to time buys either.

Aren't MLS games tied up with the World Cup rights in SUM?

Pretty much. The deal was signed in 2006 and will expire in 2014 for both World Cup and MLS rights.

I'm sure ESPN will want the World Cup back. So, I assume that means they continue with MLS.

Not necessarily. I misspoke earlier. SUM did not hold the tv rights in 2006/2010 like they did in 2002. They only provided assistance to Disney in their bid. Disney took on MLS on their own in the hopes of growing the viewership, which has not happened.As I said, there is no way to predict what will happen in 3 years but ESPN already has proof that broadcasting the World Cup with great ratings has little affect on MLS and that could affect the next contract.MLS and soccer in general could not have a better friend in John Skipper who is the vice president in charge of content. He absolutely loves the sport. It was he himself that stated that they intended to grow the MLS viewership to 1 million. If he is not in charge in 3 years and a less soccer friendly person is in his place, I fear MLS could be stuck on FSC with maybe some time buys on ESPN, which would be crushing to say the least in the business plan.