***Official Soccer Discussion Thread*** (10 Viewers)

[El Floppo]

Saints *whoa*

 

[El Floppo]

Top teams could be playing in league, European cup CL, and two English cups (FA and league)

Ya - this is the #### I can't get my head around.

You will. Oh... you will [/yoda]

 

[Christo]

Top teams could be playing in league, European cup CL, and two English cups (FA and league)

Ya - this is the #### I can't get my head around.

You will. Oh... you will [/yoda]

Unless you're a QPR fan. Then you don't have to worry about all of that.

remierleagueproblems:

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

I'd like to learn about it.

Great Qs Bender... definitely the right ones to get started.

Soccer is split into two pieces -- professional/club teams and national teams. Think of it exactly like the Washington Capitals and the US Hockey team. Works the same way that the best pros from a country can be called together to their national teams.

Most countries in the world have a professional league. The biggest four, without question, are Spain, England, Germany, Italy. Those four ebb and flow relative to each other, but they've been the best four for a long time. Others leagues worth a mention are France, Russia, Portugal, Brazil, Argentina, Netherlands, Mexico, United States, Japan and a few others I'm probably forgetting.

Professional teams can play in as many as four competitions and, as Floppo pointed out, those competitions can run concurrently.

There are exceptions (Mexico, Argentina, Brazil for example), but the "regular season" for most leagues involves playing every other team twice -- once at home, and once away. And at the end of 38 games (to pick England's total games played) the team with the most points (3 for a win, 1 for a draw) at the end of the season is the champ. Simple, elegant and virtually always with the best team crowned as champion. This is the domestic champion.

One great feature of these leagues is that the top-x teams in each league qualify for pan-Continental competition. See below. And the worst-x teams are "relegated" -- basically kicked out of the league to make way for the best-x teams from the next rung down on the professional ladder. You won't find any Sixers' style tanking in world soccer.

Every domestic league also has a Cup competition which runs throughout the year. I'll use England's FA Cup as an example. Details will differ some in other countries, but the gist is the same. All however many hundred professional teams in England are drawn randomly in a single-elimination tournament. In US terms it'd be like a tournament with Major League Baseball, AAA teams, AA teams, A teams, all the way down to semi-pro clubs. The top two leagues (the EPL and the level below it) get byes into the 3rd round (so 3/4ths of the other teams have already been eliminated). And there is NO seeding -- the two best teams in England could be drawn against each other at any point. Lose and you're out, win and you go on.

The "League Cup" is exactly like the FA Cup except that it doesn't include teams outside the top two(?) divisions.

Everyone would agree that the order of importance for these is League > FA Cup >>>>>> League Cup.

On top of the importance of the league itself, you have the top six teams qualifying "for Europe". In England the top four go to the Champions League and the next two go to the Europa League. These competitions are run by UEFA -- the branch of FIFA responsible for running soccer in Europe.

The competitions are similar, but the Europa league is almost an afterthought compared to the Champions League, and there are some big teams that would actually prefer not to play in the Europa competition since it can lead to scheduling issues late in the season. The domestic league would be considered a much bigger win than the Europa league for example.

Winning the European Champions League is, hands down, the biggest thing you can win in professional soccer. Fans of some teams might wish their team won the domestic league instead if they haven't done it for a long time (like me with Liverpool), but generally this is the biggest trophy you can win. And it's no exaggeration to say that this is the highest quality soccer in the world. Juventus sort of crashed the party this year since a Barca v Real final would be much sexier, but both teams are absolute giants in the world of soccer.

At the national team level, there are two main tournaments for each team. The World Cup, which happens every four years, and the continental championships, which happen during one or two of the years in-between World Cups. So the European Championship is basically a World Cup for just Europe. The Copa America is the South American equivalent. The Gold Cup is for North America, Central America and the Carribean (CONCACAF -- the confederation the US is in). Winning those isn't as big a deal as winning the World Cup, but they're still huge tournaments and teams absolutely go all out to win them.

How teams qualify for each of those tournaments is very different, but qualifying for the World Cup will start very soon (if it hasn't already) and will continue for the next couple years. The "World Cup" you see on TV is really just the culmination of a three-year tournament that involves virtually every country in the world.

There are a lot more details, but that's the picture from 10,000 feet.

 

[John Bender]

wow

Thanks wdcrob - I'm going to read that a few times through and also probably hit you with some follow up questions

I would repeat one of my first questions though - the whole relegation format fascinates me. has there ever been a small club to rise from the 7th or 8th (or lower) level in a league to make it all the way to the top league? Is there a website that will literally just show me what each country calls their equivalent of the EPL?

Do the "seasons" for each countries league run at roughly the same time? From what month to what month do the Leagues run typically? I want to know when the season is starting and finishing (ie NFL starts in Sept and ends in February).

 

[bentley]

That was very thorough. I just have a couple things to add/clarify.

Participation in Chanpions League/Europa is based exclusively on performance in the previous season.

It gets a lot easier to follow once you watch it for a full year. I focused on figuring out the league format and UEFA tournaments first and then the domestic cups. It's very hard to take in all at once.

I remember asking someone when the playoffs started during my first year following the EPL and they laughed at me. Definitely a whole new experience from American sports.

 

[bentley]

League list for Europe

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_top-division_football_clubs_in_UEFA_countries

 

[bentley]

I think most leagues play from late August to late May.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

wow

Thanks wdcrob - I'm going to read that a few times through and also probably hit you with some follow up questions

I would repeat one of my first questions though - the whole relegation format fascinates me. has there ever been a small club to rise from the 7th or 8th (or lower) level in a league to make it all the way to the top league? Is there a website that will literally just show me what each country calls their equivalent of the EPL?

Do the "seasons" for each countries league run at roughly the same time? From what month to what month do the Leagues run typically? I want to know when the season is starting and finishing (ie NFL starts in Sept and ends in February).

Yep! There are a few teams that have risen from the very bottom of the ladder. Wimbledon (paging Eephus) in the 80s went from nothing to the top flight in 1986/87 and finished as high as 7th or 8th in the EPL (before it was called the EPL) a few years. They also won the FA Cup -- which is is considered one of the biggest Cinderella stories of all time in English footie. If Cinderella was a vicious drunk and wore biker chains.

On the flip side... Leeds -- historically a big club in England -- went from the semi-finals of the Champions League to the 3rd or 4th level down and haven't made it back up after a full decade.

The leagues don't all run at the same time. Most European league follow the same schedule as the EPL, but MLS here in the US runs from March to October. Mexico, Argentina and Brazil run on different schedules as well.

 

[John Bender]

League list for Europe

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_top-division_football_clubs_in_UEFA_countries

Rules - thank you.

What happens for the Champions League if a key player is signed away after the league season but before the Champions League play begins the next year? what team does he play for during the Champions League? His new team?

It seems pretty crappy if John Doe was the best player in England, played for Liverpool and led them an EPL championship and was signed by Bayern after the season. Does he play for Bayern in the Champions League the following year even if he didn't help them qualify for it?

 

[John Bender]

wow

Thanks wdcrob - I'm going to read that a few times through and also probably hit you with some follow up questions

I would repeat one of my first questions though - the whole relegation format fascinates me. has there ever been a small club to rise from the 7th or 8th (or lower) level in a league to make it all the way to the top league? Is there a website that will literally just show me what each country calls their equivalent of the EPL?

Do the "seasons" for each countries league run at roughly the same time? From what month to what month do the Leagues run typically? I want to know when the season is starting and finishing (ie NFL starts in Sept and ends in February).

Yep! There are a few teams that have risen from the very bottom of the ladder. Wimbledon (paging Eephus) in the 80s went from nothing to the top flight in 1986/87 and finished as high as 7th or 8th in the EPL (before it was called the EPL) a few years. They also won the FA Cup -- which is is considered one of the biggest Cinderella stories of all time in English footie. If Cinderella was a vicious drunk and wore biker chains.

On the flip side... Leeds -- historically a big club in England -- went from the semi-finals of the Champions League to the 3rd or 4th level down and haven't made it back up after a full decade.

The leagues don't all run at the same time. Most European league follow the same schedule as the EPL, but MLS here in the US runs from March to October. Mexico, Argentina and Brazil run on different schedules as well.

Is MLS set up the same as the European model with multiple leagues and relegation?

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Yes, he'd play for Bayern but you have to switch teams before you play a game in that year's competition or you're "cap tied".

btw... the Barca team that caught your attention is among the greatest club teams to ever play. And IMO Messi is the greatest player to ever play the game.

 

[bentley]

League list for Europe

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_top-division_football_clubs_in_UEFA_countries

Rules - thank you.What happens for the Champions League if a key player is signed away after the league season but before the Champions League play begins the next year? what team does he play for during the Champions League? His new team?

It seems pretty crappy if John Doe was the best player in England, played for Liverpool and led them an EPL championship and was signed by Bayern after the season. Does he play for Bayern in the Champions League the following year even if he didn't help them qualify for it?

Yes. Like Luis Suarez carrying Liverpool to 2nd last year and then moving to Barca this year in all competitions.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Nope... MLS has no promotion/relegation.

 

[Spartans Rule]

It seems pretty crappy if John Doe was the best player in England, played for Liverpool and led them an EPL championship and was signed by Bayern after the season. Does he play for Bayern in the Champions League the following year even if he didn't help them qualify for it?

Your hypothetical is pretty close to what actually happened. Just change John Doe to Luis Suarez, championship to 2nd place and Bayern to Barca.

 

[John Bender]

Good stuff.

Thanks to all. Where are we watching most of these matches in the US? I've been following EPL on the NBCSN most Saturday mornings. Is it pretty much catch as catch can otherwise?

 

[John Bender]

Real quick...so even leagues such as Andorra, Iceland or MAcedonia gets 4 teams into the Champions League?

 

[Spartans Rule]

Good stuff.

Thanks to all. Where are we watching most of these matches in the US? I've been following EPL on the NBCSN most Saturday mornings. Is it pretty much catch as catch can otherwise?

There's a channel called beIN that has the U.S. rights to the Spanish, Italian and French leagues. The German Bundesliga is coming to Fox soon I believe. Fox Sports 1 usually carries the midweek Champions League games.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Good stuff.

Thanks to all. Where are we watching most of these matches in the US? I've been following EPL on the NBCSN most Saturday mornings. Is it pretty much catch as catch can otherwise?

BEIN sports, FOX Sports 1/2, ESPN Deportivo, UNIVISION/TELEMUNDO, online streams -- you can drown in great soccer if you want to.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Real quick...so even leagues such as Andorra, Iceland or MAcedonia gets 4 teams into the Champions League?

No, UEFA has a measure of each league's strength and the spots are allocated on that basis. So Scotland gets one. England, Spain and Germany gets four. Italy gets three, but may take a fourth next year.

Additionally, there's brief qualification period for smaller teams prior to the main event each year. Sort of like the play-in games for the NCAA hoops tourney.

 

[John Bender]

Real quick...so even leagues such as Andorra, Iceland or MAcedonia gets 4 teams into the Champions League?

No, UEFA has a measure of each league's strength and the spots are allocated on that basis. So Scotland gets one. England, Spain and Germany gets four. Italy gets three, but may take a fourth next year.

Additionally, there's brief qualification period for smaller teams prior to the main event each year. Sort of like the play-in games for the NCAA hoops tourney.

Got it

Of all the things I tried to read before asking in the thread, the hardest thing to understand was qualifying and format for the Champions League.

Is there any reason to bother with MLS? It's pretty much an inferior product across the board, correct?

 

[Spartans Rule]

Real quick...so even leagues such as Andorra, Iceland or MAcedonia gets 4 teams into the Champions League?

No. Those tiny countries get 1 team each, and they have to go through a lengthy qualifying process that they have almost no chance to survive.

Only Spain, England and Germany get 4 teams. How many spots each country gets is determined by something called the UEFA coefficient, which is probably too complicated to worry about while you're still getting your head around the basics.

 

[NewlyRetired]

Is there any reason to bother with MLS? It's pretty much an inferior product across the board, correct?

it is certainly way below the 4 big leagues in Europe in terms of quality.

I love MLS though as I enjoy watching US players as I am a big fan of the US National team and I enjoy going to games live.

 

[Spartans Rule]

Is there any reason to bother with MLS? It's pretty much an inferior product across the board, correct?

Depends what you consider inferior. There's more parity in MLS, and the standard of play isn't terrible... it's no EPL or La Liga, but it would hold up OK against European leagues outside the top 6 or 7, and it continues to get better.

 

[NewlyRetired]

At the national team level, there are two main tournaments for each team. The World Cup, which happens every four years, and the continental championships, which happen during one or two of the years in-between World Cups. So the European Championship is basically a World Cup for just Europe. The Confederations Cup is the South American equivalent. The Gold Cup is for North America, Central America and the Carribean (CONCACAF -- the confederation the US is in). Winning those isn't as big a deal as winning the World Cup, but they're still huge tournaments and teams absolutely go all out to win them.

Just a typo here in bold.

The Copa America is the South American equivalent of the European Championship.

The Confederations Cup is a tournament that is run the year before the WC in the host country and typically involves the winners of each of the different confederation tournaments listed above.

 

[John Bender]

Cool. The more time I spend in Europe, the more I see how ubiquitous soccer is over there and get the spark to not let some of the fun pass me by. Much like the NFL, I don't have a squad or club, but it still seems like it can be fun to keep up with/watch. EPL has been my first experience...watching the games for a few years now waiting for College Football to start, but I didn't really follow up with anything beyond the games I saw.

Thanks to all.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Is there any reason to bother with MLS? It's pretty much an inferior product across the board, correct?

It's inferior, but a lot of the US national team players play in the league and you can actually go to the games.

 

[NewlyRetired]

Is there any reason to bother with MLS? It's pretty much an inferior product across the board, correct?

Depends what you consider inferior. There's more parity in MLS, and the standard of play isn't terrible... it's no EPL or La Liga, but it would hold up OK against European leagues outside the top 6 or 7, and it continues to get better.

following a growing league is pretty different. Most other leagues have been around forever and they are pretty much where they are always going to be in relative terms.

MLS has grown so much in just 10 years, it is fun to see where its path will land many years from now.

Bender, if you have time, just watch an MLS game or 2. You will instantly be able to see it is not Messi-Neymar-Suarez level (which is the tippy top of the world). But you still might find it interesting.

Oh and I see you are from Philly, the Union fans on this board might warn you away from the local side :(

Also, MLS runs through the summer, where the Euro leagues are shut down so if you are looking for a game, you could check them out then.

MLS national tv games typically run on Friday night (Univision family) and Sunday (ESPN2 and Fox Sports 1).

Try watching the Orlando LA game tomorrow on ESPN2 at 5:00pm if interested.

 

[John Bender]

Newly - been to a Philly game (I have access to lots of tickets in my current job) - and I will take a look at the game tomorrow and see what I see

What would be everyone's top 5 "things" to know going into European Football for a newcomer?

e.g.: if a European came over here and ask about the Top 5 things they SHOULD know if they wanted to get into the NFL you might say:

1 - Everyone hates the Cowboys and Patriots (their fans suck plus they were really good teams for decades, cheating, etc)

2 - There are big issues right now with off the field arrest issues, go wikipedia: Adrian Peterson, Ray Rice, etc.

3 - Eagles fans are known as the worst/meanest/etc

4 - The Jaguars are historically crap/league laughing stock

5 - Jameis Winston was just drafted, google him and check out all the off field stuff which has people worried

If anyone has some time/is bored and just wants to give me the 5 THINGS I need to know going in to European Soccer, I'd appreciate it. Heck - give me 10 if you want.

 

[NewlyRetired]

Bender I forgot to mention something.

If you watch the US National Team at all, please read the first post in this thread.

Tasker did an awesome job compiling information/history/fun facts/etc on the US National team using video clips.

https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?/topic/708312-us-men-national-teams-discussion-talking-all-levels-of-us-soccer/

 

[Slapdash]

After spending time in Barcelona last week (including visiting the FC in Barcelona), I really want to start getting more into footy.

Did you go on the tour or catch a game too?

 

[John Bender]

After spending time in Barcelona last week (including visiting the FC in Barcelona), I really want to start getting more into footy.

Did you go on the tour or catch a game too?

No game brother - just a little self guided tour while on Montjuic yesterday (I guess technically the club is just ENE of Montjuic). Bought a jersey just a souvenir. Nothing too fancy, but was very cool to see.

 

[Sebowski]

I'll give you one thing you need to know:

Messi and Ronaldo are two of the greatest players of all time. It is really a privilege to be watching them both at the same time. They are 1a and 1b of players at the moment. No one else is close. It is like watching Peyton and Brady if the 3rd best QB in the league was Andy Dalton and then everyone else was at Dalton's level or worse.

 

[NewlyRetired]

Newly - been to a Philly game (I have access to lots of tickets in my current job) - and I will take a look at the game tomorrow and see what I see

What would be everyone's top 5 "things" to KNOW going into European Football for a newcomer?

e.g.: if a European came over here and ask about the Top 5 things they SHOULD know if they wanted to get into the NFL you might say:

1 - Everyone hates the Cowboys and Patriots (their fans suck plus they were really good teams for decades, cheating, etc)

2 - There are big issues right now with off the field arrest issues, go wikipedia: Adrian Peterson, Ray Rice, etc.

3 - Patriots have been the standard and closest thing to a dynasty for the past 15-20 years or so

4 - The Jaguars are historically crap/league laughing stock

5 - Jameis Winston was just drafted, google him and check out all the off field stuff which has people worried

If anyone has some time/is bored and just wants to give me the 5 THINGS I need to know going in to European Soccer, I'd appreciate it. Heck - give me 10 if you want.

1) 95% of the best players in the world play in Europe.

2) European Football can be dirty.

a) racism is bad in some countries with fans throwing bananas at black players

b) violence (while less than years ago, it still exists in some countries)

c) corruption happens that makes deflate gate look moronic (blatant match fixing by players and or refs)

3) The top leagues are driven by TV money

4) You can watch more European Football in the US than you can in any European country

5) Extreme lack of parity. If you are not one of the rich clubs or you are not about to be purchased by a Shah, you have almost no long term hopes. Any good player you have on your team will almost always go to a bigger club.

 

[Sebowski]

There is always a tactics/style argument in soccer. Some managers prefer a great defense which gets criticized as boring and defended as effective when it works (think Trent Dilfer's Ravens). Others like to attack like the run and shoot, which can lead to getting burned and criticized for not playing sound defense.

 

[John Bender]

Newly - been to a Philly game (I have access to lots of tickets in my current job) - and I will take a look at the game tomorrow and see what I see

What would be everyone's top 5 "things" to KNOW going into European Football for a newcomer?

e.g.: if a European came over here and ask about the Top 5 things they SHOULD know if they wanted to get into the NFL you might say:

1 - Everyone hates the Cowboys and Patriots (their fans suck plus they were really good teams for decades, cheating, etc)

2 - There are big issues right now with off the field arrest issues, go wikipedia: Adrian Peterson, Ray Rice, etc.

3 - Patriots have been the standard and closest thing to a dynasty for the past 15-20 years or so

4 - The Jaguars are historically crap/league laughing stock

5 - Jameis Winston was just drafted, google him and check out all the off field stuff which has people worried

If anyone has some time/is bored and just wants to give me the 5 THINGS I need to know going in to European Soccer, I'd appreciate it. Heck - give me 10 if you want.

1) 95% of the best players in the world play in Europe.

2) European Football can be dirty.

a) racism is bad in some countries with fans throwing bananas at black players

b) violence (while less than years ago, it still exists in some countries)

c) corruption happens that makes deflate gate look moronic (blatant match fixing by players and or refs)

3) The top leagues are driven by TV money

4) You can watch more European Football in the US than you can in any European country

5) Extreme lack of parity. If you are not one of the rich clubs or you are not about to be purchased by a Shah, you have almost no long term hopes. Any good player you have on your team will almost always go to a bigger club.

This is perfect format for learning. Thanks Newly.

To the bolded: Just read about Portugal's "Big 3" - holy crap. You aren't kidding.

 

[NewlyRetired]

Newly - been to a Philly game (I have access to lots of tickets in my current job) - and I will take a look at the game tomorrow and see what I see

What would be everyone's top 5 "things" to KNOW going into European Football for a newcomer?

e.g.: if a European came over here and ask about the Top 5 things they SHOULD know if they wanted to get into the NFL you might say:

1 - Everyone hates the Cowboys and Patriots (their fans suck plus they were really good teams for decades, cheating, etc)

2 - There are big issues right now with off the field arrest issues, go wikipedia: Adrian Peterson, Ray Rice, etc.

3 - Patriots have been the standard and closest thing to a dynasty for the past 15-20 years or so

4 - The Jaguars are historically crap/league laughing stock

5 - Jameis Winston was just drafted, google him and check out all the off field stuff which has people worried

If anyone has some time/is bored and just wants to give me the 5 THINGS I need to know going in to European Soccer, I'd appreciate it. Heck - give me 10 if you want.

1) 95% of the best players in the world play in Europe.

2) European Football can be dirty.

a) racism is bad in some countries with fans throwing bananas at black players

b) violence (while less than years ago, it still exists in some countries)

c) corruption happens that makes deflate gate look moronic (blatant match fixing by players and or refs)

3) The top leagues are driven by TV money

4) You can watch more European Football in the US than you can in any European country

5) Extreme lack of parity. If you are not one of the rich clubs or you are not about to be purchased by a Shah, you have almost no long term hopes. Any good player you have on your team will almost always go to a bigger club.

This is perfect format for learning. Thanks Newly.

To the bolded: Just read about Portugal's "Big 3" - holy crap. You aren't kidding.

Many countries are the same. One of the extremes is Scotland. In the last 30 years, exactly 2 teams have won the championship.

 

[John Bender]

NBCSN seems pretty interesting right now.

Looks like it's already decided that Chelsea is winning the league so they are just hopping around between games that have impact on relegation, yes?

I can't imagine being relegated is very fun and probably viewed as one of the worst things for fans of a team.

 

[NewlyRetired]

I can't imagine being relegated is very fun and probably viewed as one of the worst things for fans of a team.

Yup.

It adds some wonderful entertainment though (both getting promoted or relegated) to games that would otherwise be meaningless.

Some teams yoy yo back and forth but others once they drop may not see the top division again for a long time.

 

[Christo]

NBCSN seems pretty interesting right now.

Looks like it's already decided that Chelsea is winning the league so they are just hopping around between games that have impact on relegation, yes?

I can't imagine being relegated is very fun and probably viewed as one of the worst things for fans of a team.

No, it's a blast!

 

[NewlyRetired]

Bender, if someone already mentioned this please ignore.

Go here and sign up for free and then choose "Soccer on TV" (and any other soccer topic that interests you enough) for a daily email.

Every day you will get an email showing you all the soccer on TV in the US. It is very helpful since there is so much on now a days.

http://www.socceramerica.com/join/

 

[NewlyRetired]

@TaylorTwellman: According to @ESPNDeportes, @HoustonDynamo forward Erick "Cubo" Torres is being charged with sexual abuse. http://t.co/6NuQRWMwO4

 

[Slapdash]

After spending time in Barcelona last week (including visiting the FC in Barcelona), I really want to start getting more into footy.

Did you go on the tour or catch a game too?

No game brother - just a little self guided tour while on Montjuic yesterday (I guess technically the club is just ENE of Montjuic). Bought a jersey just a souvenir. Nothing too fancy, but was very cool to see.

You should check out the Camp Nou tour if you have time.

 

[Good Posting Judge]

Barcelona could win three (or zero) titles in the next three weeks or so, two league games left and up four points, then the Copa Del Rey final against Athletic Bilbao, then the Champions League final on June 6 against Juventus. The CL final could be analogized as being Europe's Super Bowl.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

I remember a hard-core Liverpool lifer on an old message board singing the praises of a player in the youth system and saying he thought his ultimate position would be central mid. Looking up the dates it seems that would have been 1997.

So 18 years ago and Gerrard has been with Liverpool for the entirety of the time I've followed the club. Seeing him retire puts a lump in my throat not just because I won't get to watch a great player anymore, but because 18 years is a damn long time, over a third of my life, and measuring in that unit I probably have no more than about two of them left -- if I'm lucky.

I've gone from watching him on video tapes a friend would mail me each week from Kansas City, then watching on Fox Sports World in my one-bedroom apartment with a bagel and juice from the place up the street, then at my girlfriend's apartment, now watching in our house with my two kids running around.

There are some other constants across that whole time, but not many and losing one of them, however 'meaningless', is something worth thinking about. So here's to Steven Gerrard -- who always gave all he had, wore his team's shirt with pride, and was loyal to the end. We should all be so lucky to have people say the same of us when we go.

 

[JMon348]

I remember a hard-core Liverpool lifer on an old message board singing the praises of a player in the youth system and saying he thought his ultimate position would be central mid. Looking up the dates it seems that would have been 1997.

So 18 years ago and Gerrard has been with Liverpool for the entirety of the time I've followed the club. Seeing him retire puts a lump in my throat not just because I won't get to watch a great player anymore, but because 18 years is a damn long time, over a third of my life, and measuring in that unit I probably have no more than about two of them left -- if I'm lucky.

I've gone from watching him on video tapes a friend would mail me each week from Kansas City, then watching on Fox Sports World in my one-bedroom apartment with a bagel and juice from the place up the street, then at my girlfriend's apartment, now watching in our house with my two kids running around.

There are some other constants across that whole time, but not many and losing one of them, however 'meaningless', is something worth thinking about. So here's to Steven Gerrard -- who always gave all he had, wore his team's shirt with pride, and was loyal to the end. We should all be so lucky to have people say the same of us when we go.

Got to be tough, not looking forward to this with Kobe. Dirk and Duncan coming on their final days too.

Incredible to spend 18+ years on one team.

 

[Native]

Bender - if you want to get your mind blown, take a look at the English Football "Pyramid" for a fine example of promotion and relegation. The English Premier League (EPL) is the top league in England. If you get relegated, you move to the second league (called the Championship). Get relegated again, you are now in League 1. There are 24 levels in all, though once you get down to the 6th-7th levels, there are multiple leagues per level and players are semi-pro (and usually have day jobs to pay the bills!). Overall, there are 5000+ teams in the English system. Scroll down the link below to see a visual of the Pyramid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_football_league_system

In addition to the League schedules, England has several knockout competitions during the course of the season. The FA Cup is the most famous knock-out tournament in England. It was started in the 1870's and pits teams of different levels against one another. This year 736 teams participated ranging from Chelsea and Mancherster United (from the EPL) down to Ampthill Town FC (Founded in 1881, currently in the 11th Level of the English Pyramid).

 

[Native]

Bender - Here is a cheat sheet of the most popular and succesful teams (and Leagues) in Europe. Apologies if I missed anyones team!

I. Spain - La Liga

Real Madrid - Arguably the most succesful team in European soccer history and the most expensive team in the world, both in terms of player transfer (trade) value and overall valuation. They have won the Spanish League a record 32 times and the Champions League (formally called the European Cup) 10 times (including last year). Christiano Ronaldo plays here as does a host of the most expensive and talented players in the world.

Barcelona - Real's bitter rivals and probably the only team with more talent today. Plays an aesthetic style of tikki-taka football involving lots of passing and emphasis on the "beautiful game". Won La Liga 22 times and the Champions League/European Cup 4 times. Lionel Messi plays for Barca, as does Neymar, Luis Suarez and many others.

Atletico Madrid: The 'other' team in Madrid. (sorry Z). There is is a wide chasm between the top two and everyone else, though Atletico has closed the gap in recent years - they won the Spanish League last year and also reached the final of the Champions League. That said, there brand is nowhere near the top two

II. England: English Premier League

Manchester United: The NY Yankees of England. After Real and Barca, the most expensive team in the world. Won the English League 20 times and the Champions League/European Cup 4 times. Going through some turmoil after years of domination after their long time coach, Sir Alex Furgeson, retired.

Liverpool: At one time considered the best team in Europe and had a prolonged run in the 70's and 80's that were utterly superb. In recent years, they have hovered in and out of the top 4 of the EPL (and as such they have frequently failed to qualify for the Champions League). Their fanbase is amongst the best in the world. 18 English titles (though none in 25 years) and 5 Champions League/European Cups.

Chelsea: One of the newer European giants after getting bought by a Russian Oligarch. Lots of money spent over the last 15 years when the team has won 4 of its 5 English titles as well as its first Champions League title. Recently crowned as the new EPL Champions for 2014-2015. Their coach, Jose Mouinho is as polarizing as any figure in the sport.

Arsenal: Another London powerhouse, but with a longer history of sustained success. 13 English titles but never won in Europe, despite having finished in the top 4 in England for ~20 consecutive years. Their most recent league success came in 2004-2005 when they won back to back English titles. Currently the reigning FA Cup Winner (and playing in the final again this year - game is later this month)

Manchester City - Another new European power after the team was acquired by the Abu Dhabi United group in 2008. Won two English titles in the last four year after whirlwind spending. Still no success in Europe though, and their brand has not yet extended internationally like the other clubs on this list. Their recent ascension has created a bottle-neck in England - with 5 consistently strong teams but only 4 Champions League spots available each year.

III. Germany: Bundelisga

Bayern Munich - The most dominant team in Germany and the only German team with the money and talent to consistently stand up to the top English and Spanish sides. 25 domestic titles and 5 Champions League/European trophies. Won 12 of the last 18 German titles. Deeper pockets allows them to buy the best players from their rival German clubs which simultanously raises theil level of play and derails the compeition.

IV. Italy: Serie A

Juventus: Once considered by some to be the best league in the world, the Italian League has lost much of its presitge over the last 10 years due to corruption, financial struggles and poor attendence. Juventus, known as the Old Lady, are the only one of the traditional Italian powerhouses that remain on top of their game. They have won 31 Italian titles, (including 4 in a row) and also won the Chamoions League twice. Last week they stunned Real Madrid in the Champions League Semi-Final and now play Barcelona in the final on June 6. Were relegated for match-fixing back in 2006 and worked their way back to the Serie A.

AC Milan: Have had more European success than Juventus with seven European titles, though not as much domestic success (though 18 titles is nothing to sneeze at). Owned by former Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, this is another team wrought with controversy. Currently mid-table in Italy and will not qualify for the Champions League next year.

Inter Milan: Known as 'Inter', they've won 18 domestic titles along with three European crowns. Like their bitter rivals above, they have flounderd mid-table in recent years after curtailing their spending. Will miss the Champions League once again in 2015-2016.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Worth adding that Juventus were kicked out of Serie A in disgrace as part of a match-fixing scandal 10 years ago and were off the scene for about five years. They've won four straight Italian titles, but their return to the Champions League final this year truly proves they're "back".

 

[John Bender]

I'm out of likes for the day, but wanted to thank you too Native

Thanks in advance to anyone else who gives me their Top 5 things to know.

I'm sick this weekend, so having fun reading up while in bed here.