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***Official Soccer Discussion Thread*** (6 Viewers)

I think if MLS uses pro/rel in the future it is going to be an extremely limited version like what Argentina uses.

Argentina's top division has 30 teams and only 1 gets relegated.  And the one team relegated is based on three years worth of average results.

 
NewlyRetired said:
I am not going to argue "real" or not because that definition borders on snobbery to me, but I think if you attended games in quite a few MLS cities, you would find a very strong soccer culture.  

I think very few fans going to games in Seattle, Portland, Toronto, KC, Montreal, Orlando, Salt Lake etc are thinking, "damn, if we only had promotion relegation" we would have a real culture here.
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This does not address the fans in Altoona. For all we know, Altoona is an American Brackley Town waiting to happen.

NewlyRetired said:
I think if MLS uses pro/rel in the future it is going to be an extremely limited version like what Argentina uses.

Argentina's top division has 30 teams and only 1 gets relegated.  And the one team relegated is based on three years worth of average results.
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I don't care how crooked and narrow the path upwards is as long as there's a path that you can climb at all.

 
I think it's perfectly acceptable to prefer leagues with pro/rel.  Or leagues with single-table championships.  I like those leagues too.  But I think it's important to recognize that for what it is.  Which is just a preference.  European football evolved in a certain direction.  It has produced a product with some virtues.  Pro/rel does a lot to create a sense of parity in leagues that would otherwise never be described as promoting parity (Leceister and Kaiserslautern are great stories precisely because they were gigantic aberrations).  Teams in Europe also have problems that are much, much rarer in the United States.  There are teams in La Liga where players might not get paid on time.  Even the FIRE! manages to pay its players.  A team going bankrupt is a very rare occasion in the top US sports leagues.  Teams like Portsmouth or Leeds going into administration is a common occurrence overseas. 

I'm just always puzzled that we treat the risk tolerance of the people putting tens to hundreds of millions of investment dollars at risk as irrelevant.  I'm a pretty passionate fan, but Erik Thorhir has a lot more skin in this game than I do. 

 
more Cosmos non-news/news...

Barring a last-minute miracle between Sunday night and Monday morning, it appears the Cosmos have played their final soccer game.The two-time defending North American Soccer League champions have ceased operations, a source with knowledge of their situation told BigAppleSoccer.com Sunday night.The club also has released their players, who have been paid through the end of November, but won't be compensated for December because they were not with the team anymore, according to the source.The staff has not been paid, the source added.According to a source, the Cosmos have been in negotiations with a New York group interested in purchasing the team. As of Sunday night, no deal had been reached and it was not immediately known whether one could be finalized by Monday."It's not a signed deal yet," the source said. "They are still negotiating."The NASL and the other owners are trying to make it happen," before Monday's board meeting of U.S. Soccer.If a deal is completed to sell the team, the new owners would have to pick up a debt of several million dollars, a source said.The board is scheduled to meet in New York City Monday to determine second division status for the United Soccer League.The NASL, which started its 2016 season with 12 teams, has been the second division of pro soccer in this country. However, it has dwindled down to nine teams after Minnesota United moved up to Major League Soccer, and the Tampa Bay Rowdies and Ottawa Fury decided to join the USL.A Cosmos spokesman said that "no decision has been made."
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A good example of this is the Montreal / Toronto playoff series that just concluded.

On an intellectual level, I find the European single-table championship model most satisfying.  But I can really only recall one super amazing championship moment in a European league over the last 10 years or so, and that's Aguero's stoppage time winner to win the league for City.  We wouldn't have crazy ties like we saw in Canada under the European model.  We have a playoff culture in America.  It's something that we bring to the game to make it ours.  That doesn't make a playoff system better.  It's just different, and different systems can have advantages and disadvantages.  I'm just content largely leaving the decision between those systems to those who are making the investment. 

 
Aguero gets an extra game for his tackle on Luis (4 games total).  Fernandindo gets 3.  I think Cesc should get a game or two for instigating it.

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
Don't really see Miki and Fellaini as being in direct competition for minutes unless Jose endorses the patented David Moyes tactic of employing Fellaini as a target #10, which is still one of the weirdest things ever.  Miki seems to mostly be in competition with Mata and Rooney. 

United are playing a bit better than their results, but I think what they're really missing is a natural winger.  They have a surfeit of decent strikers who can play on the wings, but they could (ironically) use a DiMaria type.  I'm sure Jose would love Willian, but I can't imagine Chelsea letting that happen. 
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shader said:
I've been hearing that for the last month with United, yet they keep slipping down the table.  Granted, I didn't watch the game yesterday as I was too angry with the LIV loss.  I think right now the pressure is getting to them, and to me that is on Mourinho.  In the League Cup and the Europa League, they've seemed ok recently.  But I think Jose and thus the team are under so much pressure to win in the league that it's affecting them in a negative way. 

He's got to figure out a way to get them to play loose and care-free and I think that team can unlock and become really good.  But now they face Tottenham, who in my opinion are a nightmare opponent for them right now.  Tott can defend and Kane is hot.  This has 2-1 Tott written all over it.  That's a result that would put Jose under immense pressure, I'd imagine. 
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Anyone watching can see they are a better team under Jose then under Moyes and LVG.  Although the haters and pundits love to show Jose having less points then either predecessor, watching you know they are better. The game is more attractive overall (not always).  They have been unlucky to not score and the reffing decisions overall have been insanely against them.  Yes all teams suffer through bad referees so I hate to use that, but there have been some howlers that would make any fan base upset.  

As for wingers, Martial and Mkhy have been great there lately and both have history doing it well.  But for some reason they get subbed off or sat the next game and get no run.  Then Mata gets sat.  Pogba needs to play between Carrick and Mata.  Free him up and let him play off Martial, Mkhy, Mata, Zlatan.  He is not good in the 10 or holding MF.  

Jose has recently said that Fellaini is the "natural replacement for Pogba" whatever that means.  We all know Jose would rather park the bus up 1-0 then hold the ball or even get that 2nd goal to see out a game.  For some reason he believes that the Fro is a great idea late in the game to do that.  But if we have learned anything is that the Fro is best at missing headers, chest traps and passes to the other team and giving away fouls in dangerous areas.  WHY would you want that in there trying to hold 1-0?

This team should be competing with the top 4 and the title.  They have the players to do it but TSO wont play his best XI consistently.  And he seems to think the Fro and the Fro Plugs should play.  Rooney may have a time and place, but the Fellaini should never see the field again.  

Best quotes I saw yesterday

Former Everton player Osman on fellaini "Hes always been clumsy like that.  When he played for us we wanted him as far away from our box as possible"

Roy Keane "An injured Bastian Schweinsteiger is better then a fit Fellaini"

Man United's EPL win % since start of 2015/2016 With the Fro 34.4%, without 60.8%

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
I think it's perfectly acceptable to prefer leagues with pro/rel.  Or leagues with single-table championships.  I like those leagues too.  But I think it's important to recognize that for what it is.  Which is just a preference.  European football evolved in a certain direction.  It has produced a product with some virtues.  Pro/rel does a lot to create a sense of parity in leagues that would otherwise never be described as promoting parity (Leceister and Kaiserslautern are great stories precisely because they were gigantic aberrations).  Teams in Europe also have problems that are much, much rarer in the United States.  There are teams in La Liga where players might not get paid on time.  Even the FIRE! manages to pay its players.  A team going bankrupt is a very rare occasion in the top US sports leagues.  Teams like Portsmouth or Leeds going into administration is a common occurrence overseas. 

I'm just always puzzled that we treat the risk tolerance of the people putting tens to hundreds of millions of investment dollars at risk as irrelevant.  I'm a pretty passionate fan, but Erik Thorhir has a lot more skin in this game than I do. 
Click to expand...
As the board's resident pinko, I also don't think individuals or corporations should be allowed to own professional footy clubs. The game belongs to the people, not the robber barons. Those teams in Europe go broke over-reaching and that's a lot harder to do if you're supporter-owned.

Oh, #######it, I almost forgot the most important reason of them all for opposing closed leagues -- open leagues remove the leverage that franchises have in extracting public monies. I know there are exceptions to this rule but Arsenal ain't going anywhere if the City of London doesn't pony up whatever funds they want it to.

 
roadkill1292 said:
As the board's resident pinko, I also don't think individuals or corporations should be allowed to own professional footy clubs. The game belongs to the people, not the robber barons. Those teams in Europe go broke over-reaching and that's a lot harder to do if you're supporter-owned.
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Then you need to start the 50+1 rule movement in North America.  I don't see how open leagues solve the problem of leverage of franchise movement.  Doesn't seem to have protected Wimbledon fans. 

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
A good example of this is the Montreal / Toronto playoff series that just concluded.

On an intellectual level, I find the European single-table championship model most satisfying.  But I can really only recall one super amazing championship moment in a European league over the last 10 years or so, and that's Aguero's stoppage time winner to win the league for City.  We wouldn't have crazy ties like we saw in Canada under the European model.  We have a playoff culture in America.  It's something that we bring to the game to make it ours.  That doesn't make a playoff system better.  It's just different, and different systems can have advantages and disadvantages.  I'm just content largely leaving the decision between those systems to those who are making the investment. 
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I was thinking about this over the last week.  I was watching the Montreal/Toronto series and contemplating the fact that Montreal had been a relatively average team over the course of the season from the standpoint of their league standings.

It's obvious that in the MLS, the regular season isn't as important as it is in the EPL or La Liga.  It still has value, but  not nearly as much.

But then, isn't that true of most American sports?  The closest thing to the MLS in terms of the % of overall teams going to the playoffs is the NBA which has one of the most meaningless regular seasons of any sport, in terms of the importance of each game.  

But the NBA finals?  Spectacular to watch.  

The EPL, La Liga, Bundesliga...I love that format.  It really makes the entire season so much fun.  What mid-season MLS or NBA game could be considered a crushing defeat?  You just move on to the next game.  

But is it better?  I have no idea.  I know that Montreal-Toronto game was a ton of fun to watch, and I kind of found myself wishing for something like that in the EPL, aside from the random season where the schedule works out well..but then that disrupts the importance and fun of the regular season.

So in the end, it's kind of cool to have two different formats to enjoy.  If we can get the overall quality of the MLS to continue to rise, it's the best of both worlds.

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
A good example of this is the Montreal / Toronto playoff series that just concluded.

On an intellectual level, I find the European single-table championship model most satisfying.  But I can really only recall one super amazing championship moment in a European league over the last 10 years or so, and that's Aguero's stoppage time winner to win the league for City.  We wouldn't have crazy ties like we saw in Canada under the European model.  We have a playoff culture in America.  It's something that we bring to the game to make it ours.  That doesn't make a playoff system better.  It's just different, and different systems can have advantages and disadvantages.  I'm just content largely leaving the decision between those systems to those who are making the investment. 
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I've been hearing some of the visiting players that seem to like the playoff system- along the lines of... normally, there's nothing to play for over the last half of the season or whatever- now, you're fighting to make it to the playoffs, and then anything can happen. 

fwiw- the aguero (feed from why always me) goal is definitely way up there in terms of drama. I liked last year with spur's stumble vs chelsea sealing it for leicester. the stevie g slilp was another moment/game that sealed a championship. 

 
El Floppo said:
fwiw- the aguero (feed from why always me) goal is definitely way up there in terms of drama. I liked last year with spur's stumble vs chelsea sealing it for leicester. the stevie g slilp was another moment/game that sealed a championship. 
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Both of these were before the last game.  As great as Leicester's story was, it would have been even better if the team hadn't clinched the championship while they were in Jamie Vardy's kitchen. 

 
AAABatteries said:
Aguero gets an extra game for his tackle on Luis (4 games total).  Fernandindo gets 3.  I think Cesc should get a game or two for instigating it.
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I think these are both the minimum - 3 games for a violent conduct red and Aguero gets an extra game because he had a red earlier this year.

Otamendi will also miss a game due to his 5th yellow. I think they've got Leicester City next. Good news for the Champs. City is pretty deep for the most part, but not so much at CB.

 
CletiusMaximus said:
I don't think so, based on the video I've seen, which I guess is what the FA will use. Its all handbags, other than the initial Aguero tackle which was a pretty clear red. I could see Challobah getting some discipline for shoving Aguero.
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If the slap was handbags, then so was Fernandinho's reaction.  The idea that those "pushes" sent Cesc over the advertising boards is ridiculous. 

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
Then you need to start the 50+1 rule movement in North America.  I don't see how open leagues solve the problem of leverage of franchise movement.  Doesn't seem to have protected Wimbledon fans. 
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If anything, the main effect of pro/rel is to encourage poor teams to invest, or at least not to tank their season, by providing a financial penalty for failure. There is potential some teams could spend beyond their means to stay up, as we've seen with QPR and others recently.

 
CletiusMaximus said:
If anything, the main effect of pro/rel is to encourage poor teams to invest, or at least not to tank their season, by providing a financial penalty for failure. There is potential some teams could spend beyond their means to stay up, as we've seen with QPR and others recently.
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I think it's ambiguous as to whether that's actually the case.  It is true that it presumably solves the problem of the sports owner spending way below the league average on payroll in a closed league and just taking his television profits.  That has happened in MLB at times before they instituted a salary floor.  But for all we know, investment across the league could be higher with less risk and more certainty.  Does it really make sense for Swansea to invest in January when that investment is way riskier if they go down (admittedly mitigated by the parachute payments).  Pro/rel probably doesn't hurt a Newcastle.  They're established enough to keep a high level or investment when relegated and have a pretty good idea they'll come back up.  But a Norwich?  It could be a death sentence and the investment made to try to stay up could start a death spiral if they don't rebound in a season or two.  That's pretty much what happened to Leeds and Portsmouth. 

 
Last edited by a moderator:
AAABatteries said:
http://www.givemesport.com/930652-footage-explains-why-fernandinho-was-so-angry-with-cesc-fabregas

not really sure how anyone could say Cesc didn't instigate more - I'm willing to accept I'm "wrong" since the FA didn't charge him but I think the FA ####ed up.  Putting your hands on someone while breaking things up is one thing - a slap to the face is quite different 
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I dunno, looks to me like none of that happens if Fernandinho doesn't put his hands on Cecs' neck while Cesc was trying to break things up initially. :shrug:  

Also, not pictured there, but was Nacho throwing hands right before that clip started?

 
Sinn Fein said:
Its still a hand to the face - you can't allow that.*

*admittedly I have not seen all the angles, but I thought the "slap" came before the hands to the throat... 
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Hands to the neck / loving facial caress /  hands to the throat / hands to the throat 

 
Sinn Fein said:
Its still a hand to the face - you can't allow that.*

*admittedly I have not seen all the angles, but I thought the "slap" came before the hands to the throat... 
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according to the rules, it's supposed to be an auto-red, right? didn't this happen to a US player in the last year... or maybe at the copa?

 
Ya know, this got me thinking...... A couple years ago I thought y'all were some weird ### mother#######.  Then I found myself more and more sucked into these soccer threads.  And now today I find myself seeking them out first and laughing at 90% of the posts.

You guys are an acquired taste.....Or I'm just coming to realize I'm a weirdo too.  :unsure:  

 
Ned said:
Ya know, this got me thinking...... A couple years ago I thought y'all were some weird ### mother#######.  Then I found myself more and more sucked into these soccer threads.  And now today I find myself seeking them out first and laughing at 90% of the posts.

You guys are an acquired taste.....Or I'm just coming to realize I'm a weirdo too.  :unsure:  
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It all changes once you learn to decipher @Kafka suddenly parts of these threads makes sense. Oh, and it also helps that we all hate @The Gator

 
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