RGIII HTTR
Footballguy
Right and that should help provide some better depth, but is very dangerous situation where the lame duck head coach makes the decisions on who and how much we should spend.
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***Official*** Washington Redskins 2013 Thread (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter dgreen
- Start date
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
Yes- the worst case senerio is they go out and draft personnel to fit their scheme then a new regime comes in and makes those players obsolete. Not unlike what the Cowboys did with their corners prior to the switch to a 4-3.
Ted Mullins
Footballguy
Who knows how good the sources are, but apparently Stephen A. Smith is saying that he was told Shanny did not want to trade up for Griffin and wanted to draft Tannehill instead.
I think this is going to get ugly.
I think this is going to get ugly.
MattFancy
Footballguy
Not sure why Stephen A would know that. If you go back and watch RG3's workout, Shanny seemed to be pretty chummy with him there. Not saying that doesn't mean he didn't want him, but I don't know if what Stephen A is saying is 100% true.
RGIII HTTR
Footballguy
Stephen A. Smith has never had a real pulse on the 'Skins or has any inside sources, so doubt it's anything more than just pure speculation or stirring the pot.
RGIII HTTR
Footballguy
So now there are reports that Trent Williams says one of the ref's cursed him out and supposedly Josh Morgan is said the coach told him to not talk about being inactive. Pretty soon we'll be talking about everything except for the play on the field.
dgreen
Footballguy
With very few exceptions, that's been our world for a while now. I'd rather discuss poor play on the field than a soap opera off the field.
Ted Mullins
Footballguy
Yeah, I obviously can't really back Stephen A. Smith's sources one way or the other - mainly just saying that this might get nasty as Shanny is likely on his way out. I agree that it'd be strange for that rumor to not come out sooner - the season started to go into a tailspin last year too with the comments about "evaluating players". It does feel like RG3 has some tension with the coaches at times - his comments from yesterday seem to insinuate they were outcoached? Always a soap opera...
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24246749/robert-griffin-iii-eagles-kind-of-knew-what-was-coming
The thing about Trent and the refs is very weird. I am curious what will come from that...I saw Lichtensteiger corroborated what Trent was saying and he was mic'd up apparently.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24246749/robert-griffin-iii-eagles-kind-of-knew-what-was-coming
The thing about Trent and the refs is very weird. I am curious what will come from that...I saw Lichtensteiger corroborated what Trent was saying and he was mic'd up apparently.
fatness
Footballguy
There's so much that you guys have posted that I agree with I can't possibly quote it all. I'll just quote this one, since it's really what we're talking about at this point -- who runs things.
Almost the entire roster has been turned over in 4 years, yet we seem the same things. That's all you need to know to figure out why there's been no improvement. The players change, the play remains the same.
There was the somewhat-valid excuse of Cerrato leaving the team bereft of talent. But look at their bench players now and you won't see much improvement. There's the excuse of the salary cap hit, but you have to remember that that hit occurred because the front office (Allen, Shanahan, Snyder) decided to use the uncapped year in a way other teams did not. The people responsible for that decision don't deserve the benefit of the "league was unfair to the Skins" excuse. They knew there was risk, they knew they were trying something different, it was hailed as a genius move, it failed, that's on them.
If you want to see a summary of how the 3-4 defense that Shanahan demanded has worked, watch the replay of Ryan Kerrigan covering LeSean McCoy deep on a pass play yesterday. 4 years of that crap and it still doesn't work.
If they don't have the players that's on Mike Shanahan. If they don't coach well that's on Mike Shanahan. If they're unprepared that's on Mike Shanahan. The guy with total control gets the blame, there isn't another place to put it. Every other person you could put the blame on is one of his choices, except of course the owner.
We've had almost 4 seasons and we see the same things now we saw in other years --- a team looking flatfooted and unprepared; undisciplined play; terrible defense and special teams; a disorganized offense that can't get plays in on time; flashes of great play mixed with stretches of horrible play, and great gobs of mediocre play.
Almost the entire roster has been turned over in 4 years, yet we seem the same things. That's all you need to know to figure out why there's been no improvement. The players change, the play remains the same.
There was the somewhat-valid excuse of Cerrato leaving the team bereft of talent. But look at their bench players now and you won't see much improvement. There's the excuse of the salary cap hit, but you have to remember that that hit occurred because the front office (Allen, Shanahan, Snyder) decided to use the uncapped year in a way other teams did not. The people responsible for that decision don't deserve the benefit of the "league was unfair to the Skins" excuse. They knew there was risk, they knew they were trying something different, it was hailed as a genius move, it failed, that's on them.
If you want to see a summary of how the 3-4 defense that Shanahan demanded has worked, watch the replay of Ryan Kerrigan covering LeSean McCoy deep on a pass play yesterday. 4 years of that crap and it still doesn't work.
If they don't have the players that's on Mike Shanahan. If they don't coach well that's on Mike Shanahan. If they're unprepared that's on Mike Shanahan. The guy with total control gets the blame, there isn't another place to put it. Every other person you could put the blame on is one of his choices, except of course the owner.
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fatness
Footballguy
Shanahan has been known for 4 years to selectively, anonymously, leak things to the media about players he was having trouble with. If that has started already this season, hang on to your hats. Shanahan has a lot of sources who will report the "dirt" he wants circulated anonymously.
Smith has never been in the Redskin loop. He may or may not be in the "Shanahan loop", I just don't know. My guess is that it was just something he heard somewhere awhile back and reported now since it's headline-grabbing.
fatness
Footballguy
When Jordan Reed went out with a concussion yesterday, and Paulsen had a couple catchable passes bonk off his hands, wasn't it great that Fred Davis was on the inactive list?
When Hankerson went out hurt yesterday, and the guy from the practice squad (no disrespect meant but I don't remember his name) became a repeated target for 3-yard out passes, wasn't it great that Josh Morgan was on the inactive list?
When Hankerson went out hurt yesterday, and the guy from the practice squad (no disrespect meant but I don't remember his name) became a repeated target for 3-yard out passes, wasn't it great that Josh Morgan was on the inactive list?
fatness
Footballguy
That would be truly bad, yeah. It would set the team back multiple years. Again. It's so ### #### hard to be a fan of this team sometimes.
fatness
Footballguy
MattFancy
Footballguy
I was always a Shanahan defender. But it's getting harder and harder to defend him each passing week. I just don't know where else to look on this team. There's some core guys to build around: RG3, Morris, Garcon, Reed, Williams, Young, Kerrigan, Riley, Amerson. I just don't know what happened from last year to this year. It's essentially the same team. Yes RG3 is coming back from major knee suregery, but that doesn't excuse the defense, special teams, or the play calling.
No RG3 hasn't been himself this season. I think deep down, all of us fans thought that could happen. He was set up for a Sophmore slump from the beginning, but the ACL surgery certainly isn't helping. There's time he's made some plays and I've thought, "wow RG3 looks like he's back". Then he makes some stupid plays like the INT yesterday or overthrowin a WIDE OPEN Paulsen by 10-15yds. The inconsistency is what is driving me nuts. But again, with him having no offseason to really work on his game, it is to be expected. Again, he's not even a year removed from his ACL injury.
The defense has had some good moments, but definitely more bad. They seemed to make adjustments too late in games. In both Eagles games, we've shut them down in the 2nd half, but it's too little, too late. The defense can't seem to put together a full game. They either look great in the 1st half or the 2nd half. I honestly don't see how Haslett can come back next season. Our defense has gone no where with him. It's not even like he has a good track record has a DC. Shanahan and Allen have to do something on defense next year.
Now the disaster that is special teams. Just blow it all up. Burns is in over his head, Rocca is old, we have ZERO return game, we can't block, and we are constantly losing the field position battle. I've lost track of how many drives we've had start inside our own 10 this year. That's on the special teams.
And lastly, Kyle Shanahan. What to do with the coach's son. If you look at just the numbers, our offense hasn't been terrible with him here. I will say, this season especially, the play calling has been questionable at times, but the offense is a top 10 offense in the league right now. I think we're a few pieces away on the OL from having a really good offense. Get RG3 back to 100% and work him like crazy in the offseason. Add a WR or 2 and the offense will be just fine.
No RG3 hasn't been himself this season. I think deep down, all of us fans thought that could happen. He was set up for a Sophmore slump from the beginning, but the ACL surgery certainly isn't helping. There's time he's made some plays and I've thought, "wow RG3 looks like he's back". Then he makes some stupid plays like the INT yesterday or overthrowin a WIDE OPEN Paulsen by 10-15yds. The inconsistency is what is driving me nuts. But again, with him having no offseason to really work on his game, it is to be expected. Again, he's not even a year removed from his ACL injury.
The defense has had some good moments, but definitely more bad. They seemed to make adjustments too late in games. In both Eagles games, we've shut them down in the 2nd half, but it's too little, too late. The defense can't seem to put together a full game. They either look great in the 1st half or the 2nd half. I honestly don't see how Haslett can come back next season. Our defense has gone no where with him. It's not even like he has a good track record has a DC. Shanahan and Allen have to do something on defense next year.
Now the disaster that is special teams. Just blow it all up. Burns is in over his head, Rocca is old, we have ZERO return game, we can't block, and we are constantly losing the field position battle. I've lost track of how many drives we've had start inside our own 10 this year. That's on the special teams.
And lastly, Kyle Shanahan. What to do with the coach's son. If you look at just the numbers, our offense hasn't been terrible with him here. I will say, this season especially, the play calling has been questionable at times, but the offense is a top 10 offense in the league right now. I think we're a few pieces away on the OL from having a really good offense. Get RG3 back to 100% and work him like crazy in the offseason. Add a WR or 2 and the offense will be just fine.
Ted Mullins
Footballguy
This was what I was thinking. Shanahan strikes me as very weasel-ish, I could see the spin being that he didn't want RG3, that trade put them in the hole, then the salary cap hit, the roster he inherited, etc. - basically he won't have anything to hang his hat on other than the winning streak last season but there will be an attempt to spin it as there wasn't much he could do.
I think I already posted something similar in this thread before, but the contrast is staggering - before RG3 went down in the playoff game vs Seattle they looked awesome and Seattle was killing teams at the end of last year, probably the hottest team in the league. Not sure there are many teams in the league that look worse right now.
fatness
Footballguy
Nick Williams is the punt returner whose name I couldn't remember.
BTW according to ESPN980 out of the last 71 drives the Redskins have started, exactly 1 of them has started in the opponents' territory. Either 6 or 7 of those 71 drives began inside the Redskin 10.
http://espn.go.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/2969/upon-further-review-redskins-week-11
BTW according to ESPN980 out of the last 71 drives the Redskins have started, exactly 1 of them has started in the opponents' territory. Either 6 or 7 of those 71 drives began inside the Redskin 10.
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fatness
Footballguy
I keep forgetting this compilation is there every week. Tons of stuff to read: http://www.hogshaven.com/2013/11/18/5117764/daily-slop-redskins-media-links-roundup
RGIII HTTR
Footballguy
This is scary, when you really think about it. As bad as the Raiders have been the past several years, we've done absolutely nothing to distance ourselves. Yikes!fatness said:
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
Posted this somewhere else and thought it fit into the discussion. Kind of an argument for Shanahan being the right guy to "steward" this team out of the Vinny/Zorn years, but not the right guy to continue forward with:
In a lot of ways, I don't really blame Shanahan for the fact that we're kind of a "high floor, low ceiling" team, at best. We're short on elite players, and deep with JAG's (Just A Guy). Because really, that's the team he set out to build, possibly until this most recent draft where he took some risks--coming into a situation with a shallow, top-heavy, old, untalented roster, the best way to turn around the culture and the team was to fill it with safe, hard working guys. Unfortunately he hasn't been able to keep them disciplined on the field, but his entire plan revolved around drafting solid, high character, hard working leadership types with plenty of starting experience in college. Not explosive playmakers or speed merchants or difference makers with other questions marks, or raw players filled with potential. Just safe, "high floor, low ceiling" guys that would mesh well. And so, that explains why our roster is the way it is.
In short, considering a new regime could come to D.C. with the franchise QB and some other offensive pieces already in place and TONS of cap space to spend on their own guys, as well as plenty of decent (if boring) young depth, Shanahan may have been a great "Steward" for this roster. He was able to pull us out of the abyss, but not enough to lift us to the highest reaches of success we now aspire to. And that's fine. That can be for the next guy.
In a lot of ways, I don't really blame Shanahan for the fact that we're kind of a "high floor, low ceiling" team, at best. We're short on elite players, and deep with JAG's (Just A Guy). Because really, that's the team he set out to build, possibly until this most recent draft where he took some risks--coming into a situation with a shallow, top-heavy, old, untalented roster, the best way to turn around the culture and the team was to fill it with safe, hard working guys. Unfortunately he hasn't been able to keep them disciplined on the field, but his entire plan revolved around drafting solid, high character, hard working leadership types with plenty of starting experience in college. Not explosive playmakers or speed merchants or difference makers with other questions marks, or raw players filled with potential. Just safe, "high floor, low ceiling" guys that would mesh well. And so, that explains why our roster is the way it is.
In short, considering a new regime could come to D.C. with the franchise QB and some other offensive pieces already in place and TONS of cap space to spend on their own guys, as well as plenty of decent (if boring) young depth, Shanahan may have been a great "Steward" for this roster. He was able to pull us out of the abyss, but not enough to lift us to the highest reaches of success we now aspire to. And that's fine. That can be for the next guy.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
And something else I posted, an argument against Shanahan's drafting (because for some bizarre reason, many here think Shanahan's coaching is BY FAR the biggest issue, and that Shanahan the GM is pretty good)--
His hits have been our highest draft picks in their respective years (Trent, Kerrigan, Griffin, Amerson), Morris, and Reed. Maybe Cousins. That's it.
That's not acceptable. Our OL is horrific, and Shanahan's entire philosophy is to acquire the athletic OL he needs in the mid-late rounds of the draft. Not a SINGLE one of our draft picks spent on the OL have panned out other than Trent. Not one. We're starting mediocre FA's across the board, with a C he inherited.
Our defense is horrific, and the only decent players he's drafted have been with our highest picks in their respective years--Kerrigan and Amerson. He's brought in nobody else of note on that entire side of the ball.
Our WR corps is awful. Hankerson is mediocre, and every other WR he's drafted, frankly has been terrible and hasn't developed.
Our ST's are horrible--Shanny has CONSISTENTLY traded back for multiple picks in the 5th, 6th, and 7th, in order to cheaply infuse our roster with depth. Not only have almost none of those picks panned out, they haven't even yielded enough depth players with ST's prowess to allow us to field a competitive, hell competent, unit!
Shanahan being in control of our drafts has been nothing but an unmitigated disaster, almost across the board, other than our highest pick every season (which even Vinny managed to almost always hit on). Because it's on him either way--either he's not drafting talent, or he's not developing the talent he drafted. It all falls at his feet--that's the beauty with a HC/GM being the same guy. You know exactly who to blame, and where to place the accountability.
His hits have been our highest draft picks in their respective years (Trent, Kerrigan, Griffin, Amerson), Morris, and Reed. Maybe Cousins. That's it.
That's not acceptable. Our OL is horrific, and Shanahan's entire philosophy is to acquire the athletic OL he needs in the mid-late rounds of the draft. Not a SINGLE one of our draft picks spent on the OL have panned out other than Trent. Not one. We're starting mediocre FA's across the board, with a C he inherited.
Our defense is horrific, and the only decent players he's drafted have been with our highest picks in their respective years--Kerrigan and Amerson. He's brought in nobody else of note on that entire side of the ball.
Our WR corps is awful. Hankerson is mediocre, and every other WR he's drafted, frankly has been terrible and hasn't developed.
Our ST's are horrible--Shanny has CONSISTENTLY traded back for multiple picks in the 5th, 6th, and 7th, in order to cheaply infuse our roster with depth. Not only have almost none of those picks panned out, they haven't even yielded enough depth players with ST's prowess to allow us to field a competitive, hell competent, unit!
Shanahan being in control of our drafts has been nothing but an unmitigated disaster, almost across the board, other than our highest pick every season (which even Vinny managed to almost always hit on). Because it's on him either way--either he's not drafting talent, or he's not developing the talent he drafted. It all falls at his feet--that's the beauty with a HC/GM being the same guy. You know exactly who to blame, and where to place the accountability.
RGIII HTTR
Footballguy
P. Riley was a good find...of course not world beater, but good find non the less. K. Robinson was to be primed to start taking Fletch's spot this season, but he got hurt and now who knows...You make some decent points though ConnSKINS.
MattFancy
Footballguy
I'm still torn on which direction this team needs to go in. Outside of the 7 game winning streak last season, Shanahan has been a failure here. Some his doing, some not. I know people keep pointing to the cap penalty, but it's a vaild excuse. Do you think we would've traded those picks to St. Louis had we known we were about to lose a ton of salary cap? I don't think we would have because the FO would have had no choice but to build through the draft. I'm not mad at them making the trade, I just think that if the league told us about the penalty before the trade, things would've been different.
Now we're at a point where you either a) keep a lame duck coach and hope he has a good season next year or b)cut ties and sort of start over. Do I think Shanny can get this thing figured out? Yeah I think so. Will he? No idea. We will have a bunch of cap space to go shopping with this offseason. Plus, we still have a good amonut of draft picks, minus our #1.
Our offense isn't a problem and I think it will be better next season when RG3 has a full offseason to work on his game instead of rehabbing an ACL. We have some solid core guys on offense with RG3, Garcon, Morris, Reed, and Williams. All of which are pretty young and should be here for the next few years. If we can address the OL in FA and add a decent #2 WR, the offense will be in really good shape going forward.
The problem with Shanny in Denver and now here, has been his defense. Last year our offense was efficient enough to mask our defensive problems. But with RG3 still not right, it puts more pressure on the defense and they have not been answering the call. Now our defense certainly needs work. Outside of Kerrigan and Amerson, this isn't much good young talent there. Orakpo is a complete toss up at this point as to whether he stays or goes. I'd like to bring him back, but I think he'll want too much money. The entire draft should be spent on the defensive side of the ball. We need LB, DL, and DB help. We can address some in FA, but we need young play makers on defense. If Haslett comes back next year, our defense will be a disaster again. I think if Shanny is going to stay next year, he HAS to get rid of Haslett. There is no good reason for bringing him back.
Now we're at a point where you either a) keep a lame duck coach and hope he has a good season next year or b)cut ties and sort of start over. Do I think Shanny can get this thing figured out? Yeah I think so. Will he? No idea. We will have a bunch of cap space to go shopping with this offseason. Plus, we still have a good amonut of draft picks, minus our #1.
Our offense isn't a problem and I think it will be better next season when RG3 has a full offseason to work on his game instead of rehabbing an ACL. We have some solid core guys on offense with RG3, Garcon, Morris, Reed, and Williams. All of which are pretty young and should be here for the next few years. If we can address the OL in FA and add a decent #2 WR, the offense will be in really good shape going forward.
The problem with Shanny in Denver and now here, has been his defense. Last year our offense was efficient enough to mask our defensive problems. But with RG3 still not right, it puts more pressure on the defense and they have not been answering the call. Now our defense certainly needs work. Outside of Kerrigan and Amerson, this isn't much good young talent there. Orakpo is a complete toss up at this point as to whether he stays or goes. I'd like to bring him back, but I think he'll want too much money. The entire draft should be spent on the defensive side of the ball. We need LB, DL, and DB help. We can address some in FA, but we need young play makers on defense. If Haslett comes back next year, our defense will be a disaster again. I think if Shanny is going to stay next year, he HAS to get rid of Haslett. There is no good reason for bringing him back.
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
So tired of reading and hearing about the cap penalty as an excuse.
I agree it's bs and collusion but for the love of Christ, it was a risk they knowingly took and they lost. It's their fault, nobody else's.
I agree it's bs and collusion but for the love of Christ, it was a risk they knowingly took and they lost. It's their fault, nobody else's.
MattFancy
Footballguy
Don't get me started on this one. How is it thair fault the owners came back 2 years later and said they violated the "spirit of the cap"? The league approved all those contracts. How in the world is it their fault?
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
And even if you set that aside and assume they somehow could have contemplated the possibility that the league would penalize them for not breaking any rules, it's still a completely valid explanation. SImply knowing there's a risk of something doesn't mean you can't cite to it as a reason for a bad season. For example they knew Garcon had some injury issues when they signed him; does that mean that nobody was allowed to discuss his injury problems as a reason for their struggles in September/October of 2012?
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
The league told them not to do and they did. Again, total BS but they took the chance.
And even if you set that aside and assume they somehow could have contemplated the possibility that the league would penalize them for not breaking any rules, it's still a completely valid explanation. SImply knowing there's a risk of something doesn't mean you can't cite to it as a reason for a bad season. For example they knew Garcon had some injury issues when they signed him; does that mean that nobody was allowed to discuss his injury problems as a reason for their struggles in September/October of 2012?
MattFancy
Footballguy
I'm sure the league tells teams a bunch of things. Again not going to rehash this thing, but we were not the only team to do it but were the ones most severly punished. Chicago and New Orleans also were dumping salary and Tampa was WAY below the salary floor. Why did they get away with it and we didn't?The league told them not to do and they did. Again, total BS but they took the chance.
And even if you set that aside and assume they somehow could have contemplated the possibility that the league would penalize them for not breaking any rules, it's still a completely valid explanation. SImply knowing there's a risk of something doesn't mean you can't cite to it as a reason for a bad season. For example they knew Garcon had some injury issues when they signed him; does that mean that nobody was allowed to discuss his injury problems as a reason for their struggles in September/October of 2012?
Swing 51
Footballguy
Because of John ####### MaraWhy did they get away with it and we didn't?The league told them not to do and they did. Again, total BS but they took the chance.
And even if you set that aside and assume they somehow could have contemplated the possibility that the league would penalize them for not breaking any rules, it's still a completely valid explanation. SImply knowing there's a risk of something doesn't mean you can't cite to it as a reason for a bad season. For example they knew Garcon had some injury issues when they signed him; does that mean that nobody was allowed to discuss his injury problems as a reason for their struggles in September/October of 2012?
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
The league didn't tell them not to do it, it asked them not to do it. If its not in the rulebook or any other governing document, you can't really say you're "taking a chance" if you disregard the request. If Goodell said to Snyder that he'd really prefer it if they changed the name of the team but he's not going to formally request it, and then subsequently penalized the team $50 million in cap space, would you say that wasn't a legitimate excuse for the team's play? The league asked them not to keep the name and they refused?The league told them not to do and they did. Again, total BS but they took the chance.
And even if you set that aside and assume they somehow could have contemplated the possibility that the league would penalize them for not breaking any rules, it's still a completely valid explanation. SImply knowing there's a risk of something doesn't mean you can't cite to it as a reason for a bad season. For example they knew Garcon had some injury issues when they signed him; does that mean that nobody was allowed to discuss his injury problems as a reason for their struggles in September/October of 2012?
Not that your point makes sense anyway. Regardless of culpability, it's totally reasonable to point to the cap space penalties as a reason for the team not being very good.
RGIII HTTR
Footballguy
Regardless of that, the actual amount of cap space taken on such short notice was crippling. Last game vs Eagles, they threw up 7-8 starters for the Eagles that fit in the missing space. Excuse or not, it is devastating to a franchise and think anything other than that is purely insane. Even if penalizing a team's cap was fair, getting a witching hour notice before FA starts had almost as much impact as the actual penalty.The league told them not to do and they did. Again, total BS but they took the chance.
And even if you set that aside and assume they somehow could have contemplated the possibility that the league would penalize them for not breaking any rules, it's still a completely valid explanation. SImply knowing there's a risk of something doesn't mean you can't cite to it as a reason for a bad season. For example they knew Garcon had some injury issues when they signed him; does that mean that nobody was allowed to discuss his injury problems as a reason for their struggles in September/October of 2012?
MattFancy
Footballguy
Exactly. Would've been different if they knew ahead of time, but telling the team hours before FA was about to start was terrible and almost seemed calculated. That is what really pisses me off about it.Regardless of that, the actual amount of cap space taken on such short notice was crippling. Last game vs Eagles, they threw up 7-8 starters for the Eagles that fit in the missing space. Excuse or not, it is devastating to a franchise and think anything other than that is purely insane. Even if penalizing a team's cap was fair, getting a witching hour notice before FA starts had almost as much impact as the actual penalty.The league told them not to do and they did. Again, total BS but they took the chance.
And even if you set that aside and assume they somehow could have contemplated the possibility that the league would penalize them for not breaking any rules, it's still a completely valid explanation. SImply knowing there's a risk of something doesn't mean you can't cite to it as a reason for a bad season. For example they knew Garcon had some injury issues when they signed him; does that mean that nobody was allowed to discuss his injury problems as a reason for their struggles in September/October of 2012?
RGIII HTTR
Footballguy
If it walks and quacks like a duck...it's a duck! Shanny seems to know offense and is clueless on defense.
Fletcher should be a TOP priority to replace, the tread is well off those tires. I agree YOUTH, YOUTH, YOUTH and much needed speed at the LB spot! Love to keep RAK if the price is right, but he is not a priority and I'd rather see him walk than get big contract. Real safety help is a real need, so we don't have to put CB's in as FS would be nice too. Amerson looks like has some decent tools to be a good CB, but we are going to need another legit CB and I am one for keeping D. Hall. Most of all, we need a coach that can actually call up effective blitzes. Tired of seeing 6 B&G defensive players get no where near the opposing QB.
Ted Mullins
Footballguy
I am really starting to come around to this notion as well.
Initially I really thought Shanny should get a bit of a pass for their struggles because of the cap hit. Not sure it's a good idea to give a longer leash for a punishment that was his own doing, though. FWIW, I do agree it's BS and collusion, etc. - but I just don't agree with giving Shanny more leeway because of it.
Not sure if I am a sucker for the media narrative or what, but I am kinda buying the whole tension between RG3 and Shanny angle - if that's the case, I'd imagine there's really no chance he makes it past the end of his contract short of something insane next year.
fatness
Footballguy
The Skins took a risk, knowingly. It didn't work. I agree what the league did was ####ed up but that doesn't change anything about the Skins decision to do what they did. And by "the Skins decision" I mean Allen, Shanahan, and Snyder. They risked, they lost, they bear responsibility for their choice. Anger at the league (which I share) doesn't obscure that.
The cap money they shifted to the uncapped year ---- how much of it was from what other years? In other words, how much of it would have hit them in 2012 and how much in 2013? Anyone know? Thanks.
Edited to add: I do agree the league timed it to hurt Washington.
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TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Sorry, I'm not gonna characterize the disregarding of a verbal request as a "risk." You don't think the league asks teams and owners to do things all the time, and that some of those requests are disregarded because they're not in the best interests of the team?
And that's saying nothing of the fact that the league approved the contract. Even if you are right that they took a "risk" in restructuring those deals, the only reasonably foreseeable risk was that the league would reject them. Asking them to have ESP and foresee the possibility that the league would first approve contracts and then subsequently impose a penalty for those approved contracts that didn't break any league rules is asking far, far too much. It's totally unrealistic to think they should have seen that coming as a real possibility.
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
The league approving the contracts is absolutely something to be upset about but whether is was verbal, said with a wink or written in invisible ink , the league warned them about dumping salary.
It's one thing if they skirted the leagues request, they straight went all in dumping enormous amounts of salary.
It's one thing if they skirted the leagues request, they straight went all in dumping enormous amounts of salary.
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
The league approving the contracts is absolutely something to be upset about but whether is was verbal, said with a wink or written in invisible ink , the league warned them about dumping salary.
It's one thing if they skirted the leagues request, they straight went all in dumping enormous amounts of salary.
It's one thing if they skirted the leagues request, they straight went all in dumping enormous amounts of salary.
MattFancy
Footballguy
But again, we weren't the only team doing it. So why did we get punished the most? Funny how Mara and Lorie were the ones pushing it and the only teams to lose money were both in the NFC East.
fatness
Footballguy
Tobias, I think you're confusing anger with the league with the actual decisions and results from Bruce Allen and Mike Shanahan.
It doesn't matter what the league said, or did, prior to the Redskins moving all the cap money to the uncapped year. The front office was well aware that very few other teams were doing this, and that the ones doing it were doing so on a much more limited basis than the Redskins. They do not work in a vacuum; they keep an eye on what their competition does; they attempt to gain competitive advantage when they can. They knew they were outliers, by a mile. And they knew the reason --- fear of league repercussion.
Dan Snyder also knew he would never take the NFL to court over the issue. You can be sure that the legalities of using the uncapped year as a salary dump were checked out and discussed in advance by the front office, unless the defense of them is that they were inoocent dummies. When the time came to challenge the NFL after the cap hit was applied, they hemmed and hawed and folded. Snyder was never going to challenge the league legally. That's on him.
The salary-dump-in-uncapped-year idea, however, is directly on Allen who came up with it and Shanahan who signed off on it. It failed. They're responsible. They sold and signed off on the idea, respectively.
Now, back to the real question. We talk about a $36 million cap hit over 2 years. What was the cap hit without all the salary cap maneuvering, and without the resulting league penalty? What years were they previously obligated to pay that $36 million in salary, and how much each year? Some of it would have been in 2012, some in 2013, and probably some in future years. Anyone know?
It doesn't matter what the league said, or did, prior to the Redskins moving all the cap money to the uncapped year. The front office was well aware that very few other teams were doing this, and that the ones doing it were doing so on a much more limited basis than the Redskins. They do not work in a vacuum; they keep an eye on what their competition does; they attempt to gain competitive advantage when they can. They knew they were outliers, by a mile. And they knew the reason --- fear of league repercussion.
Dan Snyder also knew he would never take the NFL to court over the issue. You can be sure that the legalities of using the uncapped year as a salary dump were checked out and discussed in advance by the front office, unless the defense of them is that they were inoocent dummies. When the time came to challenge the NFL after the cap hit was applied, they hemmed and hawed and folded. Snyder was never going to challenge the league legally. That's on him.
The salary-dump-in-uncapped-year idea, however, is directly on Allen who came up with it and Shanahan who signed off on it. It failed. They're responsible. They sold and signed off on the idea, respectively.
Now, back to the real question. We talk about a $36 million cap hit over 2 years. What was the cap hit without all the salary cap maneuvering, and without the resulting league penalty? What years were they previously obligated to pay that $36 million in salary, and how much each year? Some of it would have been in 2012, some in 2013, and probably some in future years. Anyone know?
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TobiasFunke
Footballguy
No, I understand what you're saying- you think that the league was wrong but that Snyder et al should have reasonably foreseen the possibility of the league acting as it did, and therefore we can hold Snyder et al accountable too. I'm saying that's wrong. I think it's ridiculous to think that the actual decisions and results made by the organization should have contemplated the reasonable possibility of lost cap space. Sure, they could have foreseen the league not allowing them to make these moves ... but that would have meant the league rejecting the contracts. Once the league approved the deals they probably (and justifiably) thought they were in the clear. They had no way to see the league taking action later, and I'm not going to hold them to that standard.
Also they were not really outliers. Several other teams did it, most notably the Cowboys of course. And as far as the other teams who didn't do it, the Skins may well have thought that some of them weren't doing it for financial reasons. They didn't save any real dollars by frontloading deals; in fact it cost them a lot of money.
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STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
Because the Skins dumped 40 million dollars. IIRC, the Cowboys were the second most egregious offenders and dumped roughly 10 million.
Tampa and the Raiders were the other two I think.
MattFancy
Footballguy
Actually I think the teams were Washington, Dallas, New Orleans, Oakland, Chicago that were all over the "salary cap" (quotations since it was an uncapped year). Oakland and New Orleans didn't get any of the redistributed money from Washington or Dallas as their penalty. Tampa was something like $30 million under the salary floor. Yet didn't get punished and ended up going on a spending spree during Free Agency.
The bottomline like Tobias said, is that no one could have forseen the penalty coming. Sure you can argue the Skins took a risk after being warned by the other owners not to do it, but when almost a 1/4 of the league was doing it, why would they think they were doing something wrong?
fatness
Footballguy
I'd like to know, but don't know where to look for, what salary was "dumped" in the uncapped year. My understanding is that it was money already owed to players by existing contracts, and the dumping just concentrated all of it into one year. Without the dumping, what was due in what year?
In other words, The $18 million cap hit each year isn't really an $18 million hit. Before they did the dumping they were already getting hit with owed money counted against the cap in both 2012 on 2013, right?
Anyway, here's why I'm so interested in this now. For the first 2 years Shanahan was in "I'm cleaning up the mess Cerrato and Zorn made" mode, and was given slack for that. Now he's in "I got hit with $18 million penalties two years in a row" mode. I don't think he gets slack for that. We've seen him for almost 4 years now, and still having excuses this far into his tenure is a bit pitiful.
In other words, The $18 million cap hit each year isn't really an $18 million hit. Before they did the dumping they were already getting hit with owed money counted against the cap in both 2012 on 2013, right?
Anyway, here's why I'm so interested in this now. For the first 2 years Shanahan was in "I'm cleaning up the mess Cerrato and Zorn made" mode, and was given slack for that. Now he's in "I got hit with $18 million penalties two years in a row" mode. I don't think he gets slack for that. We've seen him for almost 4 years now, and still having excuses this far into his tenure is a bit pitiful.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/mike-shanahan-with-his-job-under-scrutiny-defends-his-tenure-says-cap-penalty-hurt/2013/11/18/234463ba-50a9-11e3-9e2c-e1d01116fd98_story.html
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Chicago was over the salary cap in part because they signed Peppers to a ridiculously front-loaded deal. They gained just as much of a competitive advantage from the situation as the Redskins. And as you say, Tampa gained a competitive advantage as well. They saved real dollars to spend on future free agent binges, which they subsequently did.
