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***OFFICIAL: Will Vince Young be a bust or not?*** (1 Viewer)

Okay, everyone on the board is heavily divided on the prospect of VY's success in the NFL. It sure looks to me like he's either going to adjust and flourish at a pro bowl level or just completely crap the bed. Either way, if the side you pick is the wrong one, you're likely to be eating crow for a long time while he either tears up the league or collects sales checks from an Austin car dealership.So let's hear a firm "yea" or "nay" and why.For my money, I'm going with "yea." He's a project, sure, and if he refuses to alter his mechanics at all, then I'm screwed, but I believe he'll take a year or two and get things right(ish).Beyond that, Vince Young will succeed b/c:1) He's improved dramatically as a passer each year, particularly in terms of touch and accuracy. I don't think he's done developing by a long shot.2) He can already make several NFL throws. For example, remember that throw with 39 secs left in the Rose Bowl to the corner of the endzone to 6'5" Limas Sweed? He put it where *only* his guy could get it, and while the USC DB made a nice play to break it up, it was either a TD or incomplete. He makes a lot of throws like that, believe it or not.3) He won't be a scrambling star, but he will get a lot of 5-8 yard runs for crucial, game-changing first downs when some critical third down play breaks down and he has to bolt. Could I be wrong? You betcha. But I'm taking a stand. Are you? :boxing:

 

JohnnyU

Footballguy
Just like the Realty market of location, location, location, VY's future rides on coaching, confidence, scheme.

 

Austin Rams Fan

Footballguy
Just like the Realty market of location, location, location, VY's future rides on coaching, confidence, scheme.
Agreed, if they try to make him into a traditional QB, then his learning curve will be steep. Impatience will lead to a bad start to his career.If an O-coordinator is creative and designs a non-traditional pro style offense in which Vince is allowed to improvise and doesn't try to mess with his mechanics too much, then he's got a chance to be very successful. Improvisation doesn't seem to be a big part of being a QB in the NFL, though. Maybe its because defenders are faster, more disciplined, and better tacklers than college.

 

Rev

Footballguy
Gotta love his Culpepper-like ability to take a hit and still throw the ball, his Vick-like ability to scramble, and his Brady-like composure. Not to mention his size. I think he succeeds. Leftwich at worst... with the sky as the limit.

 

Pat Patriot

Footballguy
BUSTHe is not a good thrower of the football. I didnt see him make a SINGLE NFL throw in the Rose Bowl. Nothing beyond 10 yards and he didnt have to ZIP in a single pass. USC was playing such loose coverage, the Texas WR's were wide open every play. I dont think USC covered the TE all night.He is very big and strong but I dont see him so much as a scrambler as a VERY STRONG runner on designed QB runs. These runs only work once or twice a game in the NFL.

 

UrlacherIsGod

Footballguy
BUST

He is not a good thrower of the football. I didnt see him make a SINGLE NFL throw in the Rose Bowl. Nothing beyond 10 yards and he didnt have to ZIP in a single pass. USC was playing such loose coverage, the Texas WR's were wide open every play. I dont think USC covered the TE all night.

He is very big and strong but I dont see him so much as a scrambler as a VERY STRONG runner on designed QB runs. These runs only work once or twice a game in the NFL.
Apparantly you didn't see the OU game. :bag:
 

Pat Patriot

Footballguy
If by OU you mean the Oklahoma game this year, then NO I didnt see it.This is about opinion. I think VY will be a Bust in the NFL. I could be wrong. I'm sure a majority of the board would disagree with me.I dont see the guy as a legitimate NFL passer. I have seen approximately 10 of his college games including both the Michigan and USC Bowl games.

 

S.K.A.

Trout Bum
BUSTI hope this is not the case. He seems like a good kid, but I don't like his throwing motion and accuracy. Those may be important if you are going to be a quarterback. Both things are coachable, whereas his instinct and ability to run are not. He has a lot going for him, but I think that he will not get enough consistent coaching to suceed.

 

DoctorDetroit

Chocolate Thunder
What is a bust? Akili Smith bust? Heath Shuler bust? Vinny Testaverde bust? Joey Harrington bust? If he stays healthy, he'll be no worse than Steve McNair who I do not think is a bust. I think he'll be better than Michael Vick/Pennington/Harrington, as good or better than McNair/Brunell/Collins, but not quite as good as Culpepper or Palmer. No he will not be a bust but it's going to take about three years to figure it out. :blackdot:

 

nygiants56

Footballguy
BUST

I hope this is not the case. He seems like a good kid, but I don't like his throwing motion and accuracy. Those may be important if you are going to be a quarterback. Both things are coachable, whereas his instinct and ability to run are not. He has a lot going for him, but I think that he will not get enough consistent coaching to suceed.
:goodposting: I thought people said that coaches would take out the hitch from Kerry Collins throwing motion, but that still hasn't happened!!

VY has a bad hitch in his throwing motion. He might be fast in college, but in the pros, EVERYONE is fast..I'm still waiting for Vick to live up to his hype, now I have to deal with VY being overrated/overhyped too? uggh..VY has Kordell Stewart written all over him..

don't forget, USC's Defense allowed Fresno St. to run up 42 pts against them this year, Washington scored 24, ND scored 31, AZ State scored 28, so I take that Rose Bowl game with a grain of salt. Even Brady Quinn looked like Joe Montana against USC's defense!

Leinhart will be a much better pro QB than VY, IMO.. he's more NFL ready

 

jcjets

Footballguy
I'll put my vote in for a bust. The odds of any college player coming into the pros and being a star are slim as it is. I'll play the odds and say he will be a bust becasue he will be drafted in the top 10.You really should set the ground rules though. Would you consider Eli Manning as a bust so far since he was the #1 pick? Is Roethlisberger a star, or is he living up to expectations as the #11 pick?How would you consider Vick? Bust or star? He sells tickets, and thats a big deal in the NFL, I dont think he is a star QB, but he isn't a bust either.I think V.Young will have a lot of problems like 98% of the rookie QBs. He wont be turning corners so easily when scrambling in the NFL due to the speed of the OLBs. I see him somewhere in between bust and star, but not worthy of a team to build around with a top 5 pick.

 

-OZ-

Footballguy
Just like the Realty market of location, location, location, VY's future rides on coaching, confidence, scheme.
:yes: I'm hoping Bush declares so Young doesn't get picked by the Texans.

In Tennessee with a very good coach, good TEs, and a good fan base, he'll thrive.

I won't go as far as to say "CPep + Vick", but it isn't far off if he has a top go-to WR.

At worst, Vick, at best the #1 QB in FF.

Also, does he get thrown to the wolves as a rookie, or does he follow the McNair-plan?

IOW, no, not a bust - watch my rookie drafts. ;)

 
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Chaos Commish

Footballguy
2) He can already make several NFL throws. For example, remember that throw with 39 secs left in the Rose Bowl to the corner of the endzone to 6'5" Limas Sweed? He put it where *only* his guy could get it, and while the USC DB made a nice play to break it up, it was either a TD or incomplete. He makes a lot of throws like that, believe it or not.
He hasn't been given enough credit for what I have observed is an uncanny ability to do what you describe-- place the ball exactly where it needs to be. A throw to the corner of the endzone against Colorado was just perfect, the one you describe to Sweed, a couple very deep (50+ yard throws) to Pittman during the season, all three throws on the game winning drive against Ohio State-- these were all extraordinary throws, perfectly placed. It sure is intriguing to see them come from such an impressive athlete with a bizarre delivery. He led the nation in yards per reception. He goes down the field plenty. A year ago he had a very erratic arm and less than mediocre accuracy. This year, somehow, he just tightened it all up and became very accurate. Of course, he'll look awful in the NFL for a year or so, but he's such a competitor, I'd still put the ball in his hand with confidence. He'll be a star.
 

Bloom

Moderator
YEA, but it will take some time.Things Vince needs to do/learn:1) Stop throwing sidearm. It just won't work in the NFL, DLineman are too good at batting passes down. It negates a big part of his ideal NFL QB height. This part of his development is where the biggest risk of busting is, because it really involves tearing down and rebuilding part of his game. I believe they tried to tinker with his mechanics when he showed up at UT and it went horribly, so they just let him "do his thing" but he'll have a lot better teachers in the NFL than Greg Davis.2) 3 step, 5 step, and 7 step drop timing patterns. UT really did not ask him to run any of these bread and butter NFL passing plays. 3) reading and breaking down defenses, especially at NFL game speed. VY was TERRIFYING for college DCs. It was basically a choice of how you were going to let Vince kill you, on the ground or through the air - just ask OSU, who has 3 if not more future NFL starters on their defense this year. Now, I give a lot of credit to Vince for adjusting to the defensive game plan on a game by game basis, but NFL DCs have the athletes, schemes, and experience to attack Vince instead of having a scared game plan against him. The weaknesses to exploit will be smaller and Vince will have to be more cerebral and less instinctive in his approach. Basically, he'll need to go through NFL QB school, because his style of play at UT did not prepare him for the NFL 4) decision making/ball security - at least a few times a game vince will try to do something that just isnt there and overestimate his abilities. He made a throw in the last drive of the Rose Bowl that is intercepted every time in the NFL, and got lucky that it was an inexperienced DB that knocked the ball down instead of catching it. Even this year, he made 4-5 "WTF?" throws a game - that would usually hit a defender in the back or bounce off of his hands. that wont happen in the NFL. He also carries the ball like a loaf of bread when he runs. that wont fly against NFL defenders. Despite these things, I feel confident Vince will be a major success in the NFL. He's got the frame and strength. He's got the arm (dude can "flick" the ball 40-50 yards on the run). He's got the "fire in the belly" and dedication to his craft. He's smart enough to absorb NFL coaching and take the plays from the board to the field. He's got possibly the best leadership qualities in a QB I've ever seen at the college level and will instantly get the respect and backing of his teammates.Oh, and if he does fail at a QB, he'll just become an elite NFL WR. Like Reggie Bush, he's a born football player who was blessed with singular physical talent. One way or the other, he'll be a star at the next level.

 
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wannabee

Footballguy
for me, I know this may sound cheesy, but it will depend on the situation which he is drafted into. In addition, the coaching and scheme, along with other personnel (OLine and weapons) will go much further in judging his fate than his pure talent.He is the type of QB that, used in the wrong manner, will bus. But, otoh, he could fluorish within the confines of a system utilizing his strengths and minimizing his weaknesses.So, I say neither boom nor bust. Rather, a solid, good, not great NFL QB.

 

Gr00vus

Footballguy
Despite these things, I feel confident Vince will be a major success in the NFL. He's got the frame and strength. He's got the arm (dude can "flick" the ball 40-50 yards on the run). He's got the "fire in the belly" and dedication to his craft. He's smart enough to absorb NFL coaching and take the plays from the board to the field. He's got possibly the best leadership qualities in a QB I've ever seen at the college level and will instantly get the respect and backing of his teammates.
:goodposting:
 

Billy Ball Thorton

Footballguy
VY will be a S.T.U .D. He has so muct nutural talent is almost hard to even grasp. He's also a good person from what ive seen and read about him.

 
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matt jones

Footballguy
Vince Young is my fullproof bonafide NFL bust. He's a running quarterback that doesn't have great speed (I'd guess somewhere between 4.5-4.6) and lacks agility. In the NFL the defensive players are so fast, so I don't see his 'running ability' helping him too much; it will only get him injured. Every game I've watched of his didn't impress me with his throwing the ball. He seems to float too many balls, the passes lack velocity. Now, if he is drafted by the Titans and gets a year or two to work on his mechanics and bulks up, maybe he has a chance. I just try to picture him being sucessful in the NFL and I just don't see it. I'm usually pretty good at evaluating quarterbacks, I hate to brag but I was on the Roethlisberger wagon in 2004 and on the Alex Smith sucks ### wagon, too. Those are two good wagons to be on. Also, am I the only one that sees similarities between Peyton Manning and Matt Leinhart? :banned:

 

kingmalaki

Footballguy
BUST

He is not a good thrower of the football. I didnt see him make a SINGLE NFL throw in the Rose Bowl. Nothing beyond 10 yards and he didnt have to ZIP in a single pass. USC was playing such loose coverage, the Texas WR's were wide open every play. I dont think USC covered the TE all night.

He is very big and strong but I dont see him so much as a scrambler as a VERY STRONG runner on designed QB runs. These runs only work once or twice a game in the NFL.
Did you really watch the USC game? Their CB's were playing deep and VY took what they gave him.I think he will be a stud!!!! :boxing:

 

Colin Dowling

Footballguy
1. Saying YOung is "at worst Leftwich" is terrible. They are nothing alike, except for their skin color. Leftwich may be the 2nd most immobile QB on earth (Bledsoe) and has a cannon for an arm. Young will enter the league as one of the top-3 or 4 most mobile QBs in the league and while his arm is strong, it's not like Leftwich's.2. Comparing Manning and Leinart is equally silly. Manning is wound tighter than drum and has perhaps the most versatile arm in the NFL. Manning derives his confidence from studying film and preparing with OCD style intensity. TO date, Leinart has appeared loose and calm, and lacks the arm of Manning. Leinart is also much more mobile than he's given credit for. Manning rarely left the pocket in the first few years of his career.Young's speed and agility are ridiculous for a person of his size. The prognostications about his speed on boards across the internet are insane. He hasn't been timed in the forty in more than 30 months that I'm aware of, so "guessing" he's a 4.4 or 4.5 or 4.6 is silly. However, I'll point out that being "somewhere between 4.5 and 4.6" makes him faster than most every NFL Dlineman and the bulk of the Linebackers. THat kind of speed makes 2 yard gains 8 yard gains, which made Steve McNair so dangerous early in his career. As has been stated, both Young and Leainart will succeed or fail based on the system around them. With a little luck, one of them will end up in Nashville which will be a good thing: the Titans have LONG had a history of putting versatile systems together that allow the quarterback to WIN GAMES, which is the ultimate determinant of success. I think the key to Leinart's success is having a strong running game in place (a la New Orleans). I think Young's key to success is a strong O-line. I know that seems backwards, but in my view, much of Leinart's success was tied to the fact that he knew exactly when to "manage the game" and when to turn loose and win the game for his team (like last year's Orange Bowl). Having another competent offensive player in the bakfield goes a long way towards that. For Young, if you'll notice, a much larger number of his runs and scrambles actually came between the tackles. For him to continue having that as a weapon, he needs an Oline in front of him that can pass-block and run-block well, often seamlessly shifting between the two in a single play.Good thread. :thumbup:

 
I say he will be a good QB at the NFL level. I agree he needs to be in the right situation to have that happen. He needs to sit and watch for a year like Carson Palmer did for sure. He's raw.If thrown to wolves early he'll struggle mightily. He does have loads of talent and is a very good runner. I think his passing ability is underrated. Remember, the 'Horns receivers weren't all that great. How would he have done if he had receivers like Bush, Garrett and Smith? Put him on a team with good WR's and a quality running game and he'll do just fine. Ask him to be the focal point and he'll struggle. Like anyone else.TRG

 

bagger.

The One Play Quiz
Dude won his last 20 games and has as much athleticism and natural talent as any QB out there.

VY = STUD + Winner
Athleticism. Yes.Too bad they don't run the spread option in the NFL.

You saying that VY winning his past 20 games inferring that somehow correlates to NFL success is a little curious.

He'll be a BUST.

You don't get faster in the NFL. Everyone else does. You have to throw deep and I have not seen his ability to do that at all with the exception of throwing jump balls to his WRs against inferior talent like Baylor CBs.

VY did not complete one pass over 20 yards against USC and looked atrocious throwing the ball anytime they blitzed. He'll be seeing a lot more of that with bigger, faster players in the NFL.

He'll be a great WR in 3 years.

 

malaka

Footballguy
Just curious, those who think he will be a bust, or a so-so qb, is there a team you can see right now, who can draft him and give him the best shot of being a franchise qb? Whose system is he the perfect or almost perfect fit for?

 

Chase Stuart

Footballguy
Dude won his last 20 games and has as much athleticism and natural talent as any QB out there.

VY = STUD + Winner
Athleticism. Yes.Too bad they don't run the spread option in the NFL.

You saying that VY winning his past 20 games inferring that somehow correlates to NFL success is a little curious.

He'll be a BUST.

You don't get faster in the NFL. Everyone else does. You have to throw deep and I have not seen his ability to do that at all with the exception of throwing jump balls to his WRs against inferior talent like Baylor CBs.

VY did not complete one pass over 20 yards against USC and looked atrocious throwing the ball anytime they blitzed. He'll be seeing a lot more of that with bigger, faster players in the NFL.

He'll be a great WR in 3 years.
It's silly that so many people criticize a player for not winning the way they want him too. Sure, he didn't pass for tons of yards (but he led the nation in YPA and YPC); the smart move for him was to run often since defenses couldn't stop him. Sure, he didn't complete any long passes against USC (but he dominated them and his team won the NC), but the smart move was to take what the defense gave him.With all that raw talent, I see no reason why he won't be able to adjust and dominate at the pro level.

 

Nihilist Pig

Footballguy
I'll play the odds and say he will be a bust becasue he will be drafted in the top 10.
I'll take the flip side of the failure coin. Although I'm quite confident he'll fail at the next level, I don't think he'll be considered a Shuler/Akili/Leaf level bust.When the workouts roll around, teams will realize that he's fast...but not Vick fast. They'll realize he has mechanical issues that make Kerry Collins look like Marino. And they'll realize that the simplistic "make something happen" system put in place to allow him to excel in the NCAA where he was a man among boys will leave him completely unprepared to take the reins of an NFL offense. When it all shakes out, his stock will drop like a stone, and I don't see him staying near the top of anybody's QB draft board. So I doubt he'll come in with nearly the expectations of immediate franchise glory that the megabusts have had.

When he fails, it'll be just another late-1st/early-2nd QB who never quite panned out. No big deal. What we're seeing now is typical afterglow, where memory of his recent conquest is inflating his draft expectations. That'll come back down to earth when the workout numbers and opinions are tallied.

 

bagger.

The One Play Quiz
Dude won his last 20 games and has as much athleticism and natural talent as any QB out there.

VY = STUD + Winner
Athleticism. Yes.Too bad they don't run the spread option in the NFL.

You saying that VY winning his past 20 games inferring that somehow correlates to NFL success is a little curious.

He'll be a BUST.

You don't get faster in the NFL. Everyone else does. You have to throw deep and I have not seen his ability to do that at all with the exception of throwing jump balls to his WRs against inferior talent like Baylor CBs.

VY did not complete one pass over 20 yards against USC and looked atrocious throwing the ball anytime they blitzed. He'll be seeing a lot more of that with bigger, faster players in the NFL.

He'll be a great WR in 3 years.
It's silly that so many people criticize a player for not winning the way they want him too. Sure, he didn't pass for tons of yards (but he led the nation in YPA and YPC); the smart move for him was to run often since defenses couldn't stop him. Sure, he didn't complete any long passes against USC (but he dominated them and his team won the NC), but the smart move was to take what the defense gave him.With all that raw talent, I see no reason why he won't be able to adjust and dominate at the pro level.
We'll see obviously.Of course the easy comeback to saying the reason he didn't throw any deep passes is because that is what was there. But USC's pass defense was vulnerable to the deep ball all year long. When he was down 12 why didn't he attack deep?

Is it because USC runs a Tampa 2 (very similar to what many pro teams are running) and he couldn't find any deep open WRs?

Just to be clear, is your argument for Vince Young really predicated on the fact that Texas' defense stopped USC on a 4th and 2 (thus winning the NC)?

VY is a tremendous athlete. However, he is going to have to line up under center in the NFL and play a system completely different than the spread option.

How can this not concern people?

 

Chase Stuart

Footballguy
Dude won his last 20 games and has as much athleticism and natural talent as any QB out there.

VY = STUD + Winner
Athleticism. Yes.Too bad they don't run the spread option in the NFL.

You saying that VY winning his past 20 games inferring that somehow correlates to NFL success is a little curious.

He'll be a BUST.

You don't get faster in the NFL. Everyone else does. You have to throw deep and I have not seen his ability to do that at all with the exception of throwing jump balls to his WRs against inferior talent like Baylor CBs.

VY did not complete one pass over 20 yards against USC and looked atrocious throwing the ball anytime they blitzed. He'll be seeing a lot more of that with bigger, faster players in the NFL.

He'll be a great WR in 3 years.
It's silly that so many people criticize a player for not winning the way they want him too. Sure, he didn't pass for tons of yards (but he led the nation in YPA and YPC); the smart move for him was to run often since defenses couldn't stop him. Sure, he didn't complete any long passes against USC (but he dominated them and his team won the NC), but the smart move was to take what the defense gave him.With all that raw talent, I see no reason why he won't be able to adjust and dominate at the pro level.
We'll see obviously.Of course the easy comeback to saying the reason he didn't throw any deep passes is because that is what was there. But USC's pass defense was vulnerable to the deep ball all year long. When he was down 12 why didn't he attack deep?

Is it because USC runs a Tampa 2 (very similar to what many pro teams are running) and he couldn't find any deep open WRs?

Just to be clear, is your argument for Vince Young really predicated on the fact that Texas' defense stopped USC on a 4th and 2 (thus winning the NC)?

VY is a tremendous athlete. However, he is going to have to line up under center in the NFL and play a system completely different than the spread option.

How can this not concern people?
Tons of guys that were supposed to be NFL ready turned out to be horrible. I know lots of people thought McNabb was a bust because all he could do was run (my brother went to school with him, and the feeling was by many that he would be a bust in the pros). Sure, if the UT D doesn't come up big, VY doesn't get a chance to make history. But there have been QBs that were studs in college in pro offenses, and then stunk in the NFL. Then there were QBs in gimmicky, division II offenses that dominated in the pros. Other QBs have been horrible for one team, then great for another. Some QBs were studs for one team, and then totally fizzled once they left.

I'm not a college football expert, and everyone knows this is anything but an exact science. But Young has all the physical tools you want: strong-arm, big body, elusiveness, mobility and accuracy. His throwing motion is weird for sure, but that can be corrected. But when a guy has all the skills + all the intangibles (plays at his best in big games, extremely likeable, good guy) I don't see much reason to doubt him.

 

cstu

Footballguy
Dude won his last 20 games and has as much athleticism and natural talent as any QB out there.

VY = STUD + Winner
Athleticism. Yes.Too bad they don't run the spread option in the NFL.

You saying that VY winning his past 20 games inferring that somehow correlates to NFL success is a little curious.

He'll be a BUST.

You don't get faster in the NFL. Everyone else does. You have to throw deep and I have not seen his ability to do that at all with the exception of throwing jump balls to his WRs against inferior talent like Baylor CBs.

VY did not complete one pass over 20 yards against USC and looked atrocious throwing the ball anytime they blitzed. He'll be seeing a lot more of that with bigger, faster players in the NFL.

He'll be a great WR in 3 years.
It's silly that so many people criticize a player for not winning the way they want him too. Sure, he didn't pass for tons of yards (but he led the nation in YPA and YPC); the smart move for him was to run often since defenses couldn't stop him. Sure, he didn't complete any long passes against USC (but he dominated them and his team won the NC), but the smart move was to take what the defense gave him.With all that raw talent, I see no reason why he won't be able to adjust and dominate at the pro level.
We'll see obviously.Of course the easy comeback to saying the reason he didn't throw any deep passes is because that is what was there. But USC's pass defense was vulnerable to the deep ball all year long. When he was down 12 why didn't he attack deep?

Is it because USC runs a Tampa 2 (very similar to what many pro teams are running) and he couldn't find any deep open WRs?

Just to be clear, is your argument for Vince Young really predicated on the fact that Texas' defense stopped USC on a 4th and 2 (thus winning the NC)?

VY is a tremendous athlete. However, he is going to have to line up under center in the NFL and play a system completely different than the spread option.

How can this not concern people?
Tons of guys that were supposed to be NFL ready turned out to be horrible. I know lots of people thought McNabb was a bust because all he could do was run (my brother went to school with him, and the feeling was by many that he would be a bust in the pros). Sure, if the UT D doesn't come up big, VY doesn't get a chance to make history. But there have been QBs that were studs in college in pro offenses, and then stunk in the NFL. Then there were QBs in gimmicky, division II offenses that dominated in the pros. Other QBs have been horrible for one team, then great for another. Some QBs were studs for one team, and then totally fizzled once they left.

I'm not a college football expert, and everyone knows this is anything but an exact science. But Young has all the physical tools you want: strong-arm, big body, elusiveness, mobility and accuracy. His throwing motion is weird for sure, but that can be corrected. But when a guy has all the skills + all the intangibles (plays at his best in big games, extremely likeable, good guy) I don't see much reason to doubt him.
I've said this before, but I don't buy the Vince/McNabb comparision. McNabb was more of a pocket passer in college than people realize and mainly ran to escape pressure when he had to. He's was drafted because he was a decent passer with mobility.I'm not convinced that Young is even a decent passer by NFL standards. He's probably better than Matt Jones, but not as good as Vick. While he's a great runner on the college level, he doesn't have the escapability that makes Vick effective in the NFL. I really think Young will have trouble in the NFL since he'll find out that he not as evasive as he was in college and his passing won't be able to get the job done.

 

Colin Dowling

Footballguy
Why is the most basic premise regarding Young's scrambling so hard to "get" for people? He's NOT Michael Vick. Nor is he McNabb or even Cunningham of old. The best example is someone like McNair or even Jeff Garcia.

Young's running ability is valuable not becuase he'll average 20 yards a carry, but because he is big enough, strong enough, fast enough, and evasive enough to turn 2 yard losses in to 6 yard gains.

It's like people want something out a video game, and when it doesn't appear to be the case, there's a problem. Are people already forgetting that he was a MAN AMONG BOYS against a team that had won 34 straight games? Are people forgetting that no fewer than 5 times in the last two seasons, Vince took over games when none of his teammates were doing anything?

The point is that he's a good enough passer, a better-than-good-enough scrambler, and a fiery competitor.

 

cstu

Footballguy
Why is the most basic premise regarding Young's scrambling so hard to "get" for people? He's NOT Michael Vick. Nor is he McNabb or even Cunningham of old. The best example is someone like McNair or even Jeff Garcia.

Young's running ability is valuable not becuase he'll average 20 yards a carry, but because he is big enough, strong enough, fast enough, and evasive enough to turn 2 yard losses in to 6 yard gains.

It's like people want something out a video game, and when it doesn't appear to be the case, there's a problem. Are people already forgetting that he was a MAN AMONG BOYS against a team that had won 34 straight games? Are people forgetting that no fewer than 5 times in the last two seasons, Vince took over games when none of his teammates were doing anything?

The point is that he's a good enough passer, a better-than-good-enough scrambler, and a fiery competitor.
USC had never faced a mobile QB like VY and had no idea how to handle him. They had lost a lot of talent on defense, especially on the front seven with Patterson, Cody and Tatupu. All year USC made excuses for their defense - "the PAC-10 is a offensive league, blah, blah, blah", but the fact remains that they just weren't that good and couldn't pressure VY without blitzing while their LB's weren't able to contain a guy as fast as VY.
 

-OZ-

Footballguy
The point is that he's a good enough passer, a better-than-good-enough scrambler, and a fiery competitor.
Fiery competitor and true leader are where I see him avoiding being a bust. Many players bust who have talent, but few are true busts who have the leadership and drive VY does. I won't call him a "can't miss", because he has work to do, but everything that I've seen indicates that he will work for success.
 

rabidfireweasel

Footballguy
He's a running quarterback that doesn't have great speed (I'd guess somewhere between 4.5-4.6) and lacks agility.
You are wrong. He has excellent speed and agility. If he was 4.5-4.6 he would not consistantly have people taking a wrong pursuit angle.
 

-OZ-

Footballguy
He's a running quarterback that doesn't have great speed (I'd guess somewhere between 4.5-4.6) and lacks agility.
You are wrong. He has excellent speed and agility. If he was 4.5-4.6 he would not consistantly have people taking a wrong pursuit angle.
I have no idea what his 40 time is, but he is deceptively fast and extremely quick for a big guy. I'd like to see him in an obstacle course race against Matt Jones.
 

newteech

Footballguy
There is an article in this week's Sporting News where the author thinks he will be a huge bust.The reason?Vince has had success out of the shotgun and is used to reading defenses from that view.No NFL team uses the shotgun the way Texas did, and Vince will have trouble analyzing defenses from under center.

 

Colin Dowling

Footballguy
There is an article in this week's Sporting News where the author thinks he will be a huge bust.

The reason?

Vince has had success out of the shotgun and is used to reading defenses from that view.

No NFL team uses the shotgun the way Texas did, and Vince will have trouble analyzing defenses from under center.
That's ridiculous. He operated out of the shotgun no more than Byron Leftwich and many other QBs. And, just for the record, the shotgun is a legal formation in the NFL.
 

newteech

Footballguy
There is an article in this week's Sporting News where the author thinks he will be a huge bust.

The reason?

Vince has had success out of the shotgun and is used to reading defenses from that view.

No NFL team uses the shotgun the way Texas did, and Vince will have trouble analyzing defenses from under center.
That's ridiculous. He operated out of the shotgun no more than Byron Leftwich and many other QBs. And, just for the record, the shotgun is a legal formation in the NFL.
I don't remember the exact numbers, but I believe he said that Texas used the shotgun up to 70% of the time, whereas no NFL team used the shotgun more than 20% of the time.
 

BigJim®

Footballguy
For my money, I'm going with "yea." He's a project, sure, and if he refuses to alter his mechanics at all, then I'm screwed, but I believe he'll take a year or two and get things right(ish).
:goodposting: To me, all he needs is to wind up with good coaching and a decent surrounding cast to be taken seriously as a 2007 contributor. I fear he's winding up in Houston instead of Tennessee though, and that will impact my expectations of him.

 

-OZ-

Footballguy
There is an article in this week's Sporting News where the author thinks he will be a huge bust.

The reason?

Vince has had success out of the shotgun and is used to reading defenses from that view.

No NFL team uses the shotgun the way Texas did, and Vince will have trouble analyzing defenses from under center.
That's ridiculous. He operated out of the shotgun no more than Byron Leftwich and many other QBs. And, just for the record, the shotgun is a legal formation in the NFL.
I don't remember the exact numbers, but I believe he said that Texas used the shotgun up to 70% of the time, whereas no NFL team used the shotgun more than 20% of the time.
Interesting if true, but good coaches have this skill called "adaptation". If he truly cannot learn to play from a different formation, they just may run the shotgun more. They also have this thing called "coaching". ;)

 

Pat Patriot

Footballguy
Nothing beyond 10 yards and he didnt have to ZIP in a single pass. 
then you watched the game with blinders on
Ok, smartguy. I still have the game on TIVO. You tell me the time when Vince Young completed a pass to a WR that wasnt ABSOLUTELY wide open. The fact that USC was playing an extremely SOFT zone does not equate me to thinking that VY is an accurate passer or that he can make NFL caliber throws into tight coverage.
 

Colin Dowling

Footballguy
Nothing beyond 10 yards and he didnt have to ZIP in a single pass. 
then you watched the game with blinders on
Ok, smartguy. I still have the game on TIVO. You tell me the time when Vince Young completed a pass to a WR that wasnt ABSOLUTELY wide open. The fact that USC was playing an extremely SOFT zone does not equate me to thinking that VY is an accurate passer or that he can make NFL caliber throws into tight coverage.
You are seeing what you want to see. Watch the playoffs this weekend and tell me how many passes are "into tight coverage" and how many are wide open. Picking the correct guy to throw it to is a skill lots of QBs haven't mastered, including David Carr.
 
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WhoDat

Footballguy
This is such a tough call.

His delivery point is problematic but, given his size, it is not as bad as it could be otherwise. That can be fixed in time. Young will get that coaching. If he is willing to learn, this is easily fixed.

The arm strength...there was a lot of air under many of Young's passes this year. A college program does not rely on the out and in pattern. As P. Patriot made mention earlier, the NFL passing game is built around the post; skinny post, out and in. Guys can either make those throws or they cannot. Physically speaking, that is the deal breaker for most guys attempting to make that jump from Saturdays to Sundays. For me the jury is out on Young with this item but it can be addressed and, perhaps, corrected with coaching. This is not so easy to fix.

However, I have been on the field for a few of his games. Seeing that kid grin in the huddle, when all is breaking loose around him, is something else. The camera caught him a few times doing it last week against the Trojans. That it factor cannot be measured but in the grand scheme of things it does matter....tremendously. Guys will play hard for him. Guys will listen to him. Guys will protect him. You can't teach nor can you coach that out of someone. You either have it or you don't. Young's got plenty of it.

Ultimately, I agree with JohnnyU. If Young ends up with a team that realizes he is going to need to be developed and brought along; with an offensive coordinator that will build a scheme around Young versus forcing him into an established playbook and Young is not expected to save a starving franchise from Day 1 (Saints, for example), he has a great shot at shocking some people.

I keep thinking of B. Kosar. That guy looked like he should be delivering pizzas. There was nothing athletic about him. His delivery and motion were horrific. He was slower than slow. However, the kid just won games and could command a huddle.

Young's got an infinite amount more of God given talent, when compared to Kosar, but one of the same major problems...quirky motion and bad delivery point. They do share the same intangible qualities, which in opinion have great value, and that will make a difference.

 

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