Oilers/Titans Historical Draft Question (1 Viewer)

[Bob Magaw]

To any homers or those in the know, did ex-HC Fisher have final personnel decision in the draft during his tenure, or former GM Floyd Reese?

* searched, didn't find a dedicated general Titans thread.

 

[Bob Magaw]

I just looked it up and found this article by ESPN's John Clayton from 2003. Fisher's last year in TEN was in 2010, and he coached there for 16 years, so that would have been close to halfway into his tenure.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfldraft/columnist?id=1541900

Excerpt - Floyd Reese: "General manager Reese has the final decision on any player coming to the team. He runs the draft. He manages the cap. He does it all. Having a coach as talented as Jeff Fisher, Reese's system has been a consistent success in keeping the Titans in playoff and championship contention."

There ya go. While he may have had input with Reese (and probably did), this seems to put the "Fisher never takes an OL in the first round" meme in a new light, and effectively blow it up.

* Floyd Reese's wiki page. Reese overlapped Fisher exactly the first twelve years, leaving in 2006 (in part over Fisher wanting more say). So Fisher may have only had more say in the last four of those 16 years. Which might explain rumblings that he wasn't too keen on VY.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floyd_Reese

 

[Sweet Love]

Without getting too philosophical, it doesn't mean he is opposed to taking O-Line in Round 1...he may have been on the same page as Reese when it came to that. With that said, it will be interesting to see how they view Matthews, and how far he falls (potentially). They could trade up from 13, or down from 2 and get him plus Clowney.

 

[JohnnyU]

To any homers or those in the know, did ex-HC Fisher have final personnel decision in the draft during his tenure, or former GM Floyd Reese?

* searched, didn't find a dedicated general Titans thread.

I'm pretty sure Fisher had total control early in his tenure.

 

[Bob Magaw]

Without getting too philosophical, it doesn't mean he is opposed to taking O-Line in Round 1...he may have been on the same page as Reese when it came to that. With that said, it will be interesting to see how they view Matthews, and how far he falls (potentially). They could trade up from 13, or down from 2 and get him plus Clowney.

Sure, agreed, but the fact that Reece ran the draft for 3/4 of Fisher's tenure, at least gives me pause to think we shouldn't automatically attribute said "philosophy" 100% to Fisher (which I think many have previously, unaware that Reece ran the draft for 12 of his 16 years). Uncertainty is introduced that wouldn't be there if Fisher had control for the duration.

In fact, a power struggle over personnel matters was reportedly the wedge that ripped the partnership apart in an ugly divorce. If Fisher was in complete harmony with Reece's choices, seemingly this would have been unnecessary.

Some other observations and comments.

1) Fisher had Hopkins at LT for about 12 of the 16 years he was there. No need to draft one high when you already have one. It is possible he does have such a philosophy (or maybe adopted Reece's?) on the interior OL, if there was more need and occasion to draft one there and they passed repeatedly (but they also had Matthews for a long time, though that leaves two other interior OL positions - I think Matthews also may have played some OT?).

2) Blue chip elite LTs typically go high in the draft. While 18 years as a HC without drafting an OL is an impressive number, in only three of the 16 seasons in HOU/TEN did they pick as high as top 10 (1.3 twice and 1.6 once). And in those instances, I didn't check to see who they had at the time (Roos has been pretty good, too, so again, if you don't need to draft a high first round LT for long stretches of time, isn't to me synonymous with saying that a HC categorically WON'T, I don't think we know that - that wasn't directed at you, Sweet Love, but to the thread in general, in case some do hold that belief), who they passed on, etc. But it is possible they just needed a QB (twice) and CB (once) more? In which case, it may be misplaced to make inferences or sweeping generalizations based on that.

3) While Fisher was hired first, I think Snead has at least some say over personnel and the draft. No doubt Fisher has input, but that works both ways, and Snead might, too. So the grand total of history we can draw on from the Fisher/Snead partnership is two years, not 18. For instance, I think Fisher only took one WR (Kevin Dyson?) in 16 years in HOU/TEN, and never seemed to prioritize the position as much as a running game and defense. Yet in year two here, not only does he take Tavon Austin, but spends the 1.16 and 2.16 to move up to 1.8. After one first round WR in the previous 17 years, that seemed to break a trend. And if it can happen in one position, maybe it can happen in others.

4) STL has to take a player from SOME position. By process of elimination, let's say they trade with ATL and move to 1.6. HOU takes a QB, ATL takes Clowney, JAX and CLE each take a QB and OAK takes Watkins. Lets say their scouts grade Robinson and Matthews as the third and fourth best prospects in the draft, after Clowney at first, Bridgewater second, and ahead of Watkins at fifth and the rest of the QBs. Lets say the LBs (Mack and Barr) aren't as highly graded. Perhaps they don't prioritize LB if he will be a two down player, and Barr is a scheme misfit (3-4 OLB could be best, most natural pro position?). Lets say the DBs, whether safeties Clinton-Dix and Pryor or CBs Dennard and Gilbert, grade outside the top 10 (in some cases, significantly lower). Other WRs grade lower (Evans, Lee), and maybe they don't think they need one and are happy with who they have at the position. They aren't likely to take a QB. So again, they have to take a position from SOMEWHERE. If the LTs grade high and are sitting on the board at 1.6, to not get one of them and opt for a lower graded player at another position would be an example of positional reaching. And both have the versatility that they could be long term LTs when needed, and play RT or guard in the interim. Given all the OL injuries in recent years, and the uncertainty with several players either recovering from more injuries, approaching their mid-thirties, maybe being cap casualties or moving on in free agency, that kind of athletic versatility and positional flexibility could be hugely important for STL.

 

[Sweet Love]

Bob,

To your fourth point (which I think is great), I see teams actually "feeding" their strengths versus sitting on them. Detroit's strength was D-Line, so they draft Ziggy, the Giants strength is D-Line, so they draft JPP, the Jets' is overall Defense and they use two firsts on D-line and CB in Millner and Richardson. If I am in STL's shoes, I take Clowney to rotate with Quinn and Long (they could be relentless) and move up from 13 to get Matthews in the 8-9 spot.

 

[starks]

Not too sure. He was pissed the Titan's drafted Vince Young but I think the owner had more to do with that instead of Reese.

 

[Bob Magaw]

Bob,

To your fourth point (which I think is great), I see teams actually "feeding" their strengths versus sitting on them. Detroit's strength was D-Line, so they draft Ziggy, the Giants strength is D-Line, so they draft JPP, the Jets' is overall Defense and they use two firsts on D-line and CB in Millner and Richardson. If I am in STL's shoes, I take Clowney to rotate with Quinn and Long (they could be relentless) and move up from 13 to get Matthews in the 8-9 spot.

I would love that draft. Previously I thought in terms of ideally getting Robinson and Watkins. I like the idea of a trade down because Clowney's motor and hustle concern me, but I fully appreciate the upside. If they don't trade up from the second pick, I prefer Robinson or Matthews to Watkins, but like all of them with first pick. Than a DB with the second. The secondary seems like a gaping hole to me, the biggest on the team. Possibly the Giants were a more complete team when they added JPP (already having won a recent Super Bowl?). They also may have been thinking of the future, and in their case, I think their best pass rushers Osi and Tuck were older than Quinn is now (just 23).

You could make a case that one reason Schwartz got fired is that as strong as the DL was, it didn't compensate for the weaknesses of the secondary (as well as not prioritizing the OL enough).

You make excellent points, though, that is the interesting thing about the draft and roster architecting, there isn't one mono-solution. It is possible that Clowney makes the team best. I would be more comfortable with him if not for the questions on such a high pick. Also, if they trade down and add a second and third, it could be like getting 2-3 starters for the price of one. So far, they have traded every pick from the RG3 trade for more picks.

 

[Bob Magaw]

Not too sure. He was pissed the Titan's drafted Vince Young but I think the owner had more to do with that instead of Reese.

I heard that to and believe it, but don't think the owner routinely made picks. I still think that was Reece (with presumed input from Fisher).

 

[Bri]

He did not have final say and it was a considerable issue. They lost a real lot of "solid" talent to replace them with rooks.

The belief that their great line coaches could "make something out of nothing" actually worked but it was frustrating. Roos and Stewart were 1st and 2nd team All Pros one year and both were excellent for 4-5 years.

They often seemed to draft top DL.

Britt was the first first round WR (they might not have drafted 2nd round even) in a llllong time.

Reese was very very good at drafting defensive backs-one of the best maybe. I thought he did a very nice job of drafting solid TEs. For a good long while, Wychek and his backups were all solid.

Reese would feel the team has a need and keep drafting that spot til he nailed it. On the one hand, they replaced Eddie George OK til doing well with CJ, on the other...it took a bunch of free agent $ and picks.

They built a good team and couldn't keep it together. They had real good LBers at one point and they slowly all signed elsewhere in free agency. It didn't feel like they re-signed many which makes it hard to make progress.

The biggest issue was that if he loved a guy(generally fans did too) the GM didn't care. You can rationalize it with "it's a business" but over and over it's frustrating. Of all those he adored, I felt like Bullock was the final straw for him. Not in a dramatic way, just that when they asked him about him signing with the Giants he looked sad as he said how he wishes him well there.

Back to this because it's important- they had two of the best line coaches and no matter what every game (and offseason) opposing teams knew they were going against a tough unit. They seemed to believe if the lines were solid, they could easily fill in the rest. Not bad in theory I suppose, but it didn't work. Examples- a RB getting bottled up, play almost dead, gets free for 7-10 yards til the safety gets him. QB has all day but is a poor decision maker. WRs that are just fast or can only go deep. Their line for Lendale (and CJ around Mawae's retirement) was five across of guys that made the pro bowl, some all pro. If Lendale only gets four with a hole you can drive a car through, does it matter?

 

[Bri]

Not too sure. He was pissed the Titan's drafted Vince Young but I think the owner had more to do with that instead of Reese.

I heard that to and believe it, but don't think the owner routinely made picks. I still think that was Reece (with presumed input from Fisher).

Adams didn't draft many players. A football fan too, sometimes he fell in love and they had to take his guy. It was not often at all and IIRC usually a Texas kid.

Young is part of a bad time too.

Heimerdinger left-terrible decision. Norm Chow came from an impressive list of USC QBs that were in the NFL and....Vince wouldn't listen to him. Steve McNair died; McNair did spend some time with Vince and the two of them seemed friends. Heimerdinger returned and he died too. Chow...I think he was at Brigham Young when they could really throw the rock and if I'm not mistaken he's been part of Hawaii offenses. The guy definitely knew how to create a good passing offense and had a nice background. Fans everywhere were curious with Vince not listening. What do you do then? Fisher battled with him and tried to iron it out, but Vince took this as a personal attack and eventually seemed to lose it mentally. He became very unprofessional and undisciplined and nothing like the guy Mack sent to the NFL.

In hindsight, keeping Kerry Collins and grooming another should have been the move but Vince's (half) rookie season was so impressive they figured he arrived.

 

[Bob Magaw]

Thanks for the TEN intel, Bri.

Much appreciated.

 

[Bri]

Bob,

To your fourth point (which I think is great), I see teams actually "feeding" their strengths versus sitting on them. Detroit's strength was D-Line, so they draft Ziggy, the Giants strength is D-Line, so they draft JPP, the Jets' is overall Defense and they use two firsts on D-line and CB in Millner and Richardson. If I am in STL's shoes, I take Clowney to rotate with Quinn and Long (they could be relentless) and move up from 13 to get Matthews in the 8-9 spot.

I think Matthews family name will move him up a smidge on draft day. GMs gotta nail the first round pick and that surname offers some reassurance in work ethic, demeanor, class, character etc.