Older Davone Bess thread (1 Viewer)

[gianmarco]

--I'm quietly leading all of the 2nd year WR's in receptions this year.

--I was 3rd amongst all of the rookie WR's last year in receptions.

--At my current pace of receptions this year, I would end up 17th or 18th on the list of most receptions by a WR in their 1st 2 years in the NFL.

Here is the list of 2nd year WR's and their reception totals through 2 years:

1 Marques Colston wr 2006--2007 30 168 2240 13.33 19 338.002 Larry Fitzgerald wr 2004--2005 32 161 2189 13.60 18 332.403 Anquan Boldin wr 2003--2004 26 157 2000 12.74 9 256.304 Dwayne Bowe wr 2007--2008 32 156 2017 12.93 12 273.705 Wayne Chrebet wr 1995--1996 32 150 1635 10.90 7 205.606 Randy Moss wr 1998--1999 32 149 2726 18.30 28 445.307 Gary Clark wr 1985--1986 31 146 2191 15.01 12 292.108 Andre Johnson wr 2003--2004 32 145 2118 14.61 10 272.009 Sterling Sharpe wr 1988--1989 32 145 2214 15.27 13 301.7010 Isaac Bruce wr 1994--1995 28 140 2053 14.66 16 303.2011 Marvin Harrison wr 1996--1997 32 137 1702 12.42 14 255.0012 Jerry Rice wr 1985--1986 32 135 2497 18.50 18 379.5013 Torry Holt wr 1999--2000 32 134 2423 18.08 12 317.5014 Andre Rison wr 1989--1990 32 134 2028 15.13 14 288.6015 Keyshawn Johnson wr 1996--1997 30 133 1807 13.59 13 258.7016 Al Toon wr 1985--1986 31 131 1838 14.03 11 250.00(Some pretty good company)So........Who Am I? Answer in post #19 (and others)

 

[steviey]

Bess?

 

[jwb]

Yea, I would guess Bess.

 

[Onions]

Desean Jackson?

 

[Anonymous Internet User]

I'd have to think that even though he's stinking it up with Orton/Simms, Eddie Royal should be up there.

 

[bostonfred]

I can't remember if Steve Smith is a 2nd year?

 

[BRONG]

I can't remember if Steve Smith is a 2nd year?

WHAT!?I bet Bess.

 

[Utter Chaos]

I'd have to think that even though he's stinking it up with Orton/Simms, Eddie Royal should be up there.

I thought of Royal but he doesn't fit the first criteria....--I'm quietly leading all of the 2nd year WR's in receptions.

I'm thinking Bess is the guy as well.

 

[Utter Chaos]

I can't remember if Steve Smith is a 2nd year?

WHAT!?I bet Bess.

I'm thinking he means the Giants Steve Smith. Smith was drafted in the 2nd round in 2007 so this is his 3rd year.

 

[Anonymous Internet User]

I'd have to think that even though he's stinking it up with Orton/Simms, Eddie Royal should be up there.

I thought of Royal but he doesn't fit the first criteria....--I'm quietly leading all of the 2nd year WR's in receptions.

I'm thinking Bess is the guy as well.

well, the only other 2nd-yr WR starter that was a starter as a rookie as well that i recall in that group was Donnie Avery.

 

[bostonfred]

Desean Jackson?

Gotta be

 

[travdogg]

I'm guessing Donnie Avery

 

[Loan Sharks]

I think Bess is #1 it's gotta be Jackson or Bennett

 

[Anonymous Internet User]

I think Bess is #1 it's gotta be Jackson or Bennett

Earl Bennett?? He had 0 receptions last year.

 

[Anonymous Internet User]

[No message]

 

[Loan Sharks]

I think Bess is #1 it's gotta be Jackson or Bennett

Earl Bennett?? He had 0 receptions last year.

Sorry I missed the last year qualifier I thought it was just 2nd year guys this year.

 

[egg413]

What about Dwayne Bowe or Calvin Johnson?

 

[Anonymous Internet User]

What about Dwayne Bowe or Calvin Johnson?

not 2nd years

 

[Utter Chaos]

For those that want to know the answer you can look here...

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/tiny/yn6S5 (2008 and 2009 combined)

and here:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/tiny/wLJVM (2008 rookie wide receiver stats sort by receptions)

Also, notice in the 3rd point the OP says "at my current pace".

 

[Dragon1952]

Jackson's got almost double the yardage on 4 less catches, and 5 TD's. 0 TD's for the leader so far, and just 1 TD last year.

 

[mjohnell]

I'd rather have Sims-Walker of all the players on these lists though I'm biased as a Jags fan. Also, its debateable he should even be included since he was drafted in 2007.

 

[gianmarco]

The interesting thing is that if this guy has 4-5 TDs to his name, he would be generating SUBSTANTIAL buzz and value. Not only that, but he didn't even become a starter until week 13 of last year.

I don't think this guys is the next Colston or Fitzgerald, but I think he may be severely undervalued, especially in ppr leagues.

 

[BRONG]

I can't remember if Steve Smith is a 2nd year?

WHAT!?I bet Bess.

I'm thinking he means the Giants Steve Smith. Smith was drafted in the 2nd round in 2007 so this is his 3rd year.

Right, but wasn't he in Carolina his first year? BnB's favorite team, the Panthers...

 

[Fear & Loathing]

The interesting thing is that if this guy has 4-5 TDs to his name, he would be generating SUBSTANTIAL buzz and value.

If he had 4-5 TDs to his name, he'd be a completely different player ... and, thus, more valuable.

 

[gianmarco]

The interesting thing is that if this guy has 4-5 TDs to his name, he would be generating SUBSTANTIAL buzz and value.

If he had 4-5 TDs to his name, he'd be a completely different player ... and, thus, more valuable.

Can't say I can get behind this thinking. TDs are far more variable. Targets/Receptions/Yards are much more likely to remain somewhat constant. This is how you can find guys that are undervalued.T. Jones in 2007: 310/1119/1T. Jones in 2008: 290/1312/13Completely different player? Nah. Just an abnormally low TD count for the # of carries and yards he had. Same thing with SJax this year and not having any TDs for 1st half of the year. Sure, terrible offense, but the TDs would eventually come.Bess isn't a RZ threat, but it's not inconceivable for him to score 4-5 TDs for the year without being a RZ threat.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Isn't the answers MSW?

 

[The Man with the Plan]

I hate it when people do this. If you have a point to make then just make it. Stop screwing around.

 

[PolishNorbi]

Eddie Royal?

 

[strong]

I hate it when people do this. If you have a point to make then just make it. Stop screwing around.

i think he means besslook at reception leaders. msw has 47, bess has 46, and jackson has 42. but bess, on pace for 71, might have 125 for his career after this year, just behind al toon. msw, on a similar pace, would only have 88. jackson, though, will likely be higher than bess at the end of the year for career receptions. just my guess, but OP is probably suggesting bess is moving into very solid company for receivers, which is intriguing when considering he can be had pretty cheap in a lot of dynasty-type leagues. if the OP is talking about jackson, i have no idea what his point is since everyone pimps him all the time around here.

 

[Shaun]

It's Mike Sims-Walker - with that said, is this someone to put an asterisk next to for next year's draft? Is this a reliable statistic that has shown progression in the past?

 

[Dragon1952]

He's talking about Devone Bess. Walker's in his 3rd year.

 

[gianmarco]

MSW is in his 3rd year and yes, the answer is Bess.

 

[Football Jones]

Devone Bess is a great story. The piece they did on him Sunday morning was interesting. That said, I'm starting to wonder if any WR under that regime will be fantasy relevant. Talk about a QB/WR wasteland, LOL.

Maybe Bess will change that. I'm not super-high on him or anything, but he's got a chance to be decent with some upside in PPR leagues.

 

[FUBAR]

I like Bess enough but does anyone see upside here? He's a top 60 WR so certainly rosterable in most leagues but is he ever going to be a top 24 type WR or someone who will put up a big game somewhat often?

He's a decent starter in a pinch and won't cost a lot, I'd just like to see more potential than I do. FWIW, I drafted him late last year so I'd love to see him do well.

 

[gianmarco]

I hate it when people do this. If you have a point to make then just make it. Stop screwing around.

Hate when people do what? Offer up a little trivia? Possibly open up your eyes to someone you didn't realize? The point is obvious. The answer is listed multiple times. I even confirmed the answer when talking about his TDs. Who's "screwing around"?

 

[gianmarco]

I like Bess enough but does anyone see upside here? He's a top 60 WR so certainly rosterable in most leagues but is he ever going to be a top 24 type WR or someone who will put up a big game somewhat often?He's a decent starter in a pinch and won't cost a lot, I'd just like to see more potential than I do. FWIW, I drafted him late last year so I'd love to see him do well.

He's currently ranked ~WR60 but that's mostly because he has 0 TDs to his name. Some may argue that he'll never catch a lot of TDs and that's probably true, but he should start catching SOME. In terms of upside, I'm not exactly sure, but when you look at what he's done receptions-wise, particularly since he wasn't even listed as a starter until week 13 of last year, he falls into some pretty elite company. It's very possible he's just a blip on a list that he has no business being on, but given his ridiculously low price, he just seems like a prime buy-low. Factor in the demotion of Ginn and Henne getting promoted and looking his way often, and this is guy that could easily be a WR3/4 on a team in no time at all.Not everyone has to have WR1 upside to have value. Cotchery is never going to finish in the top 10 but it doesn't mean he's worthless. Even if WR2/3 is his upside, that's fine. At worst, he's a reasonable bye week fill-in.

 

[FUBAR]

I like Bess enough but does anyone see upside here? He's a top 60 WR so certainly rosterable in most leagues but is he ever going to be a top 24 type WR or someone who will put up a big game somewhat often?He's a decent starter in a pinch and won't cost a lot, I'd just like to see more potential than I do. FWIW, I drafted him late last year so I'd love to see him do well.

He's currently ranked ~WR60 but that's mostly because he has 0 TDs to his name. Some may argue that he'll never catch a lot of TDs and that's probably true, but he should start catching SOME. In terms of upside, I'm not exactly sure, but when you look at what he's done receptions-wise, particularly since he wasn't even listed as a starter until week 13 of last year, he falls into some pretty elite company. It's very possible he's just a blip on a list that he has no business being on, but given his ridiculously low price, he just seems like a prime buy-low. Factor in the demotion of Ginn and Henne getting promoted and looking his way often, and this is guy that could easily be a WR3/4 on a team in no time at all.Not everyone has to have WR1 upside to have value. Cotchery is never going to finish in the top 10 but it doesn't mean he's worthless. Even if WR2/3 is his upside, that's fine. At worst, he's a reasonable bye week fill-in.

fair enough and I obviously agree that he has value in large leagues. I'm just asking if anyone sees him as a top 24 / WR2 type. Is that his upside or is his upside more along the lines of Wayne Chrebet - some good years but never a guy who will be a lock in your lineup.

 

[cr8f]

I hate it when people do this. If you have a point to make then just make it. Stop screwing around.

Who cares if this receiver still sucks? He has 397 yards Manningham has over 600. No wonder he's doing this silently.

 

[FDC]

I think Bess is a product of:

1) noodle armed Chad and his 35+ 5 yd passes a game.

2) a complete lack of receiving threats in Miami.

I just don't think that Bess is a legitimate NFL talent. Sometimes stats open eyes, sometimes they deceive them.

There are rumors swirling that Ginn and his huge contract will be either traded for very cheap - or he could be completely dropped all together. I expect Parcells to bring in a WR1 and I also expect a TE to come in as well. Henning loves to throw to his TE and Fasano has shown he can't get it done. So a WR2 in a run first offense that loves to throw to their TE? Sounds like a WR 80-90 to me.

 

[MaddHatter]

I think Bess is a product of:1) noodle armed Chad and his 35+ 5 yd passes a game.2) a complete lack of receiving threats in Miami.I just don't think that Bess is a legitimate NFL talent. Sometimes stats open eyes, sometimes they deceive them.There are rumors swirling that Ginn and his huge contract will be either traded for very cheap - or he could be completely dropped all together. I expect Parcells to bring in a WR1 and I also expect a TE to come in as well. Henning loves to throw to his TE and Fasano has shown he can't get it done. So a WR2 in a run first offense that loves to throw to their TE? Sounds like a WR 80-90 to me.

He is doing what Welker did while Welker was in Miami.He is in his second year, catches a lot of passes, is dependable as hell, yet he is not a legitimate NFL talent?For being undrafted, he is playing great. I would take his services over Braylon Edwards, Bernard Berrian, T.J. Houshmandzadeh, or Roy Williams any day of the week.

 

[Michael Brown]

The interesting thing is that if this guy has 4-5 TDs to his name, he would be generating SUBSTANTIAL buzz and value.

If he had 4-5 TDs to his name, he'd be a completely different player ... and, thus, more valuable.

Can't say I can get behind this thinking. TDs are far more variable. Targets/Receptions/Yards are much more likely to remain somewhat constant. This is how you can find guys that are undervalued.T. Jones in 2007: 310/1119/1T. Jones in 2008: 290/1312/13Completely different player? Nah. Just an abnormally low TD count for the # of carries and yards he had. Same thing with SJax this year and not having any TDs for 1st half of the year. Sure, terrible offense, but the TDs would eventually come.Bess isn't a RZ threat, but it's not inconceivable for him to score 4-5 TDs for the year without being a RZ threat.

TDs are more variable, but there are also guys who just aren't good red zone threats either due to size, hands, route-running, ability to get off the line quickly, etc.And I don't think the Jones example is a good one, because he increased his YPC from 3.6 to 4.5 so it's not like he had similar seasons there.

 

[FDC]

I think Bess is a product of:1) noodle armed Chad and his 35+ 5 yd passes a game.2) a complete lack of receiving threats in Miami.I just don't think that Bess is a legitimate NFL talent. Sometimes stats open eyes, sometimes they deceive them.There are rumors swirling that Ginn and his huge contract will be either traded for very cheap - or he could be completely dropped all together. I expect Parcells to bring in a WR1 and I also expect a TE to come in as well. Henning loves to throw to his TE and Fasano has shown he can't get it done. So a WR2 in a run first offense that loves to throw to their TE? Sounds like a WR 80-90 to me.

He is doing what Welker did while Welker was in Miami.He is in his second year, catches a lot of passes, is dependable as hell, yet he is not a legitimate NFL talent?For being undrafted, he is playing great. I would take his services over Braylon Edwards, Bernard Berrian, T.J. Houshmandzadeh, or Roy Williams any day of the week.

Welker was pre-Henning. And lets not confuse Miami Wes Welker with NE Wes Welker. While in Miami Welker never totaled more than 67 receptions or over 700 yards in a season. And lets also not confuse the production of a possible WR1 compared to the production of a WR2 or 3 like Bess. I for one would much rather have the 4 mentioned over Bess.When I say legitmitate NFL talent... He clearly has a place in the NFl. But he is not a truly elite level guy that will make an impact no matter what.

 

[big0mar]

No way is Bess nearly as explosive or even as fast as Welker.

Bess is decent at getting open. But he isn't going to produce TDs in that offense, and will eventually not even be starting for Miami.

 

[Fear & Loathing]

The interesting thing is that if this guy has 4-5 TDs to his name, he would be generating SUBSTANTIAL buzz and value.

If he had 4-5 TDs to his name, he'd be a completely different player ... and, thus, more valuable.

Can't say I can get behind this thinking. TDs are far more variable. Targets/Receptions/Yards are much more likely to remain somewhat constant. This is how you can find guys that are undervalued.T. Jones in 2007: 310/1119/1T. Jones in 2008: 290/1312/13Completely different player? Nah. Just an abnormally low TD count for the # of carries and yards he had. Same thing with SJax this year and not having any TDs for 1st half of the year. Sure, terrible offense, but the TDs would eventually come.Bess isn't a RZ threat, but it's not inconceivable for him to score 4-5 TDs for the year without being a RZ threat.

Your comparison is apples and oranges. It's true that TDs are more variable (especially for carry-the-load RBs), but it's also true that some players are much better at getting into the end zone than others. A slow possession receiver with an extreme size disadvantage is not a good bet to suddenly start scoring TDs. It's no coincidence that the Dolphins go to their backs, taller WRs, and tight ends in the red zone instead of Bess. It's also no coincidence that Bess isn't breaking big plays that end up in a trip to paydirt. He's a limited role player.

 

[big0mar]

The interesting thing is that if this guy has 4-5 TDs to his name, he would be generating SUBSTANTIAL buzz and value.

If he had 4-5 TDs to his name, he'd be a completely different player ... and, thus, more valuable.

Can't say I can get behind this thinking. TDs are far more variable. Targets/Receptions/Yards are much more likely to remain somewhat constant. This is how you can find guys that are undervalued.T. Jones in 2007: 310/1119/1T. Jones in 2008: 290/1312/13Completely different player? Nah. Just an abnormally low TD count for the # of carries and yards he had. Same thing with SJax this year and not having any TDs for 1st half of the year. Sure, terrible offense, but the TDs would eventually come.Bess isn't a RZ threat, but it's not inconceivable for him to score 4-5 TDs for the year without being a RZ threat.

Your comparison is apples and oranges. It's true that TDs are more variable (especially for carry-the-load RBs), but it's also true that some players are much better at getting into the end zone than others. A slow possession receiver with an extreme size disadvantage is not a good bet to suddenly start scoring TDs. It's no coincidence that the Dolphins go to their backs, taller WRs, and tight ends in the red zone instead of Bess. It's also no coincidence that Bess isn't breaking big plays that end up in a trip to paydirt. He's a limited role player.

 

[Tau837]

The interesting thing is that if this guy has 4-5 TDs to his name, he would be generating SUBSTANTIAL buzz and value.

If he had 4-5 TDs to his name, he'd be a completely different player ... and, thus, more valuable.

Can't say I can get behind this thinking. TDs are far more variable. Targets/Receptions/Yards are much more likely to remain somewhat constant. This is how you can find guys that are undervalued.T. Jones in 2007: 310/1119/1T. Jones in 2008: 290/1312/13Completely different player? Nah. Just an abnormally low TD count for the # of carries and yards he had. Same thing with SJax this year and not having any TDs for 1st half of the year. Sure, terrible offense, but the TDs would eventually come.Bess isn't a RZ threat, but it's not inconceivable for him to score 4-5 TDs for the year without being a RZ threat.

Your comparison is apples and oranges. It's true that TDs are more variable (especially for carry-the-load RBs), but it's also true that some players are much better at getting into the end zone than others. A slow possession receiver with an extreme size disadvantage is not a good bet to suddenly start scoring TDs. It's no coincidence that the Dolphins go to their backs, taller WRs, and tight ends in the red zone instead of Bess. It's also no coincidence that Bess isn't breaking big plays that end up in a trip to paydirt. He's a limited role player.

He has played in 26 games and has 1 TD. To put it another way, he has 1 TD in 130 career targets. Given we can see reasons for this, as noted by F&L, I don't see any reason why this will change.I can't say I'm particularly impressed with his career 9.5 ypr average, either. Frankly, I'd have to be in quite a bind to consider rostering him, much less starting him.ETA: He is averaging less than 4.1 fantasy points per game this year. Ugh.

 

[gianmarco]

The interesting thing is that if this guy has 4-5 TDs to his name, he would be generating SUBSTANTIAL buzz and value.

If he had 4-5 TDs to his name, he'd be a completely different player ... and, thus, more valuable.

Can't say I can get behind this thinking. TDs are far more variable. Targets/Receptions/Yards are much more likely to remain somewhat constant. This is how you can find guys that are undervalued.T. Jones in 2007: 310/1119/1T. Jones in 2008: 290/1312/13Completely different player? Nah. Just an abnormally low TD count for the # of carries and yards he had. Same thing with SJax this year and not having any TDs for 1st half of the year. Sure, terrible offense, but the TDs would eventually come.Bess isn't a RZ threat, but it's not inconceivable for him to score 4-5 TDs for the year without being a RZ threat.

Your comparison is apples and oranges. It's true that TDs are more variable (especially for carry-the-load RBs), but it's also true that some players are much better at getting into the end zone than others. A slow possession receiver with an extreme size disadvantage is not a good bet to suddenly start scoring TDs. It's no coincidence that the Dolphins go to their backs, taller WRs, and tight ends in the red zone instead of Bess. It's also no coincidence that Bess isn't breaking big plays that end up in a trip to paydirt. He's a limited role player.

He has played in 26 games and has 1 TD. To put it another way, he has 1 TD in 130 career targets. Given we can see reasons for this, as noted by F&L, I don't see any reason why this will change.I can't say I'm particularly impressed with his career 9.5 ypr average, either. Frankly, I'd have to be in quite a bind to consider rostering him, much less starting him.ETA: He is averaging less than 4.1 fantasy points per game this year. Ugh.

That average is for non-ppr. I agree in non-ppr is essentially worthless. In PPR, it's a different story. He's gone over double digits the last 3 weeks in a row. He has a low ypr but so does Welker. That's more of an indication of how he's used and not so much his talent level. The TD issue is a real one. My point about bringing up T. Jones wasn't that their situations are comparable. The point was that, earlier in his career, T. Jones was able to score. He had one aberrant year where his TDs were essentially non-existent despite putting up a lot of yards. What if he STARTED his career with that year? Would it be safe to assume he wouldn't be a high TD scoring guy? I think it's still too early to say that Bess will never be able to score more than 1 TD/year. It's very possible that he continues to catch 60-70 balls/year and never score but he's still only in his 2nd year and hasn't even been a starter for a full year yet. It's quite possible that he changes that. Look, I'm not saying this guy is the next WR gem that is going to burst onto the scene. If I had to bet one way or the other, I'd easily bet that he likely never amounts to much and remains a bye week fill-in type guy at best. However, given what he's actually done in terms of catching the ball so far and the company he shares in that respect, it's POSSIBLE that he could actually be the next Wes Welker type. It may take a change of scenery. It may take different play calling. It may not take anything else than just a little more time. But the guy is dirt cheap right now and all I know is that he's catching a ton of balls for a 2nd year WR. There are similarly terrible situations in places like Tenn, Oakland, TB, etc. where young WR's aren't doing anything with their opportunities. Especially given the fact that Miami is a run-first team, it should at least make you take notice that he continues to catch a decent # of balls.

 

[Anarchy99]

With 6 games left to go in the season, Bess ranks 300th for most fantasy points after 2 NFL seasons (0 PPR). If he produces at the same rate as his career average the rest of the year, he could crack the Top 225.

 

[BRONG]

With 6 games left to go in the season, Bess ranks 300th for most fantasy points after 2 NFL seasons (0 PPR). If he produces at the same rate as his career average the rest of the year, he could crack the Top 225.

Yeah, but the first time he was targeted much was week 12 of last year, so half of your 20-game sample is meaningless. I realize the original question and all but that's still a selective statistic, to me anyway. His recency is what matters.

 

[MaddHatter]

I think Bess is a product of:1) noodle armed Chad and his 35+ 5 yd passes a game.2) a complete lack of receiving threats in Miami.I just don't think that Bess is a legitimate NFL talent. Sometimes stats open eyes, sometimes they deceive them.There are rumors swirling that Ginn and his huge contract will be either traded for very cheap - or he could be completely dropped all together. I expect Parcells to bring in a WR1 and I also expect a TE to come in as well. Henning loves to throw to his TE and Fasano has shown he can't get it done. So a WR2 in a run first offense that loves to throw to their TE? Sounds like a WR 80-90 to me.

He is doing what Welker did while Welker was in Miami.He is in his second year, catches a lot of passes, is dependable as hell, yet he is not a legitimate NFL talent?For being undrafted, he is playing great. I would take his services over Braylon Edwards, Bernard Berrian, T.J. Houshmandzadeh, or Roy Williams any day of the week.

Welker was pre-Henning. And lets not confuse Miami Wes Welker with NE Wes Welker. While in Miami Welker never totaled more than 67 receptions or over 700 yards in a season. And lets also not confuse the production of a possible WR1 compared to the production of a WR2 or 3 like Bess. I for one would much rather have the 4 mentioned over Bess.When I say legitmitate NFL talent... He clearly has a place in the NFl. But he is not a truly elite level guy that will make an impact no matter what.

I think you mean Henne.Next, not every receiver can come out of the league and in 2 years match Welker's NE-production. Welker built himself and kept improving on all of the little things, from breaking jams to selling his routes. Bess continues to improve on those facets as well. So, you retract your statement? I don't get it. Is Bess legitimate NFL talent or not? Not everyone steps in and is elite in their first two years but a lot of receivers would love to produce like Bess has in his first two years. He is accomplishing something that hundreds of WRs never were capable of. There is something to be said about that.