Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
The Dolphins wide receivers are awful. What happens to Bess when they bring in upgrades? He had a hard time getting past Greg Camarillo and Brian Hartline for the first half of the season.
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Older Davone Bess thread (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter gianmarco
- Start date
cr8f
Footballguy
2nd year PPR WR projections going forward, I think this is correct.
9 DeSean Jackson 23 2 10 8 125 1 42 728 17.3 5 163.30
25 Mario Manningham 23 2 9 0 0 0 40 617 15.4 4 125.70
37 Pierre Garcon 24 2 10 2 10 0 32 511 16.0 3 102.107.00
44 Earl Bennett 22 2 10 0 0 0 40 511 12.8 0 91.10
48 Andre Caldwell 24 2 10 3 22 0 36 330 9.2 3 89.20
51 Davone Bess 24 2 10 1 11 0 46 397 8.6 0 86.80
71 Eddie Royal 23 2 10 0 0 0 31 282 9.1 0 59.20
9 DeSean Jackson 23 2 10 8 125 1 42 728 17.3 5 163.30
25 Mario Manningham 23 2 9 0 0 0 40 617 15.4 4 125.70
37 Pierre Garcon 24 2 10 2 10 0 32 511 16.0 3 102.107.00
44 Earl Bennett 22 2 10 0 0 0 40 511 12.8 0 91.10
48 Andre Caldwell 24 2 10 3 22 0 36 330 9.2 3 89.20
51 Davone Bess 24 2 10 1 11 0 46 397 8.6 0 86.80
71 Eddie Royal 23 2 10 0 0 0 31 282 9.1 0 59.20
gianmarco
Footballguy
I admit I don't follow the Dolphins every move, but when did he have a hard time getting past Camarillo and Hartline for the 1st half of the season? From my understanding, he's been the starter since day 1 this year.What happens to Bess if they don't bring in upgrades?What happens to Bess if he gets traded to a much better situation than Miami?And, most importantly, why are you thinking that I'm supporting Bess because of his situation? I haven't even really discussed his situation, neither as a positive nor a negative. Whether or not they bring in people or don't or whether or not he remains a Dolphin or doesn't is irrelevant for where we stand on this. It seems you don't think he has any talent at all. I'm saying that he has to have at least SOME talent to do what he's doing, even if it isn't THAT much. There have been numerous WR's in the history of the NFL in better situations, worse situations, better talent, and worse talent that haven't done what he's doing in terms of # of receptions. I understand that simply catching a lot of balls is not the only metric to measure a WR but it shouldn't be completely dismissed, especially when he's extremely high up on the list for catches by a WR in his 1st 2 years. Top 20 in receptions for a WR in his first 2 years in the HISTORY OF THE NFL is noteworthy. Even more so when you look at the names that surround him on that list. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree that it means he has no talent. I don't think you catch 130+ balls in your first 2 yrs in the NFL, ESPECIALLY on a run-first team, without having SOME talent. I just don't buy it or many other WRs would be doing the same thing. The guy is also catching > 70% of his targets.We'll just agree to disagree on him. It seems you're content closing the book on him in terms of having any type of potential to improve after < 1 full season of being a starter. I'll give the guy a little bit more of a looksie in a few leagues as a prospect. From what I've seen from him on the field, which admittedly isn't a huge body of work, I like how he looks out there. Doesn't wow you but just seems to get open and catches the ball. There's a place for guys like that, both in the NFL and on FF teams. He reminds me a lot of Lance Moore but with higher upside, IMO.
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No I mean Dan Henning- Fins Offensive Coord. A run first OC that loves to throw to his TE and do FF WR killing things such as the wildcat.I do not retract my statement. Main Entry: 1le·git·i·mate Pronunciation: \li-ˈji-tə-mət\Function: adjective 2 : being exactly as purposed : neither spurious nor false <a legitimate grievance> <a legitimate practitioner>I do not think he is a legitmitate talent in the same league as Eddie Royal, Desean Jackson, Donnie Avery, Mike Simms-Walker and others as the OP suggested. That is my opinion and it seems that most of the people responding to this thread agree with me.
gianmarco
Footballguy
Whoa, whoa, whoa. I NEVER suggested he was the same talent as any of those guys. If you're reading that out of anything I've posted, please quote it as that was NOT what I was saying. The guy does NOT have WR1 upside whatsoever. That doesn't mean he's worthless. And again, he's playing for a coach that is a run first OC who throws to his TE and kills FF WRs and he's STILL catching a substantial # of balls in his 1st 2 yrs in the league. Enough balls to put him extremely high on that list for WR's in their 1st 2 yrs. How is he doing that without any talent whatsoever? Why aren't other WR's doing the same?
KellysHeroes
Footballguy
Hes becoming a lot more dependable and seems to be getting better...
ThaPenguin
Footballguy
I think you are confusing him with Dwayne Jarrett, who came out of USC the same time as Steve Smith, the Giant.
Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
Well, first of all: No, he wasn't starting for much of the first half of the season. He was splitting time opposite Ginn, then he was splitting time opposite Hartline, then he had the slot all to himself, now he's pretty much the only reliable receiver.And I didn't say he didn't have any talent. You made that up to create an argument.I said he's slow (for an NFL WR) and has a pretty big size disadvantage. That won't stop him from doing the two things he does well: get open and catch passes. But it will stop him from getting in the end zone, which is the point I've been making from the beginning. He's a limited role player. There's nothing wrong with that, but it caps his upside in fantasy leagues.Edit to add: He's not close to Lance Moore. Moore is just as good as a route runner and pass catcher, and he has much better speed and athletic ability. Bess will never have a season as good as Moore's 2008 season. Moore had 10 TDs last season, and there's a good chance Bess won't reach 10 in his entire career.
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gianmarco
Footballguy
Well, you said the Miami WR's are awful and that he had a hard time beating out Camarillo and Hartline. So you may not have come out and said he had no talent, but that's not necessarily a ringing endorsement. So yes, I implied from your statement that you don't think much of his talent. If that's an error, I'm sorry. As for him being slow, he ran a 4.6 at the NFL combine and ran a 4.49 at his pro day. Lance Moore ran a 4.55 and a 4.51. Also, Moore had a whopping 2 TDs, a career high, in his 3rd year. He then went on to score 10 TDs the following year (his 4th in the NFL) despite being undersized (5'9, 190) and not very fast (4.55 speed). Not your prototypical redzone target. And Bess is 1 inch taller. So I completely disagree that he has "much better speed".
Being a Saints fan and also a Lance Moore fan before most even knew who he was, I've watched him quite a bit and he is not a guy that is oozing with athletic ability. Bess is just as athletic as he is from what I've seen if not more so. Both guys rely on quickness, not speed and both have good hands. The fact that Moore was able to catch 10 TDs at his size and speed is a testament that it's possible Bess catches a few more TDs. He will never be a 6-7+ TD catch guy. But, being a 70-80/900/3-4 guy has its merits. That's all I'm saying.
ETA -- Bess breaks Ed Reed's ankle on his cutback move Plenty of athletic ability seen on that run.
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gianmarco
Footballguy
Let me also add something:
Wes Welker is also 5'9, 190 lbs. His Combine 40 time: 4.61. His Pro Day 40 time: 4.65
He went undrafted
Lance Moore also went undrafted.
Both of those guys, despite being slow for NFL WR's, do what they do well and landed in ideal situations. Because of this, they were able to rack up big reception totals and even score TDs despite not being redzone targets or guys with top end speed to run away from defenders. Ironically, Welker was also with the Dolphins and mired in a bad situation until he was traded to the Patriots and we all know the rest of the story. At the time, it looked like the most ridiculous signing.
There are a ton of similarities between these guys. I am NOT saying Bess is the next Wes Welker or even the next 2008 Lance Moore. Those guys have excelled not only due to their talent but because of their situation. If Welker doesn't go to the Patriots in 2007, I don't think he ever cracks a FF roster at this point.
The beauty is that Bess is showing that he can do the same things as those guys. Who knows if he remains a Dolphin. He may very well end up in a much friendlier passing situation and put up some nice #'s. And he might even score a few TDs like these other slow, undersized guys.
Wes Welker is also 5'9, 190 lbs. His Combine 40 time: 4.61. His Pro Day 40 time: 4.65
He went undrafted
Lance Moore also went undrafted.
Both of those guys, despite being slow for NFL WR's, do what they do well and landed in ideal situations. Because of this, they were able to rack up big reception totals and even score TDs despite not being redzone targets or guys with top end speed to run away from defenders. Ironically, Welker was also with the Dolphins and mired in a bad situation until he was traded to the Patriots and we all know the rest of the story. At the time, it looked like the most ridiculous signing.
There are a ton of similarities between these guys. I am NOT saying Bess is the next Wes Welker or even the next 2008 Lance Moore. Those guys have excelled not only due to their talent but because of their situation. If Welker doesn't go to the Patriots in 2007, I don't think he ever cracks a FF roster at this point.
The beauty is that Bess is showing that he can do the same things as those guys. Who knows if he remains a Dolphin. He may very well end up in a much friendlier passing situation and put up some nice #'s. And he might even score a few TDs like these other slow, undersized guys.
Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
The Miami WR's are awful -- one of the worst groups in the NFL. The "not necessarily a ringing endorsement" comes from the Dolphins coaching staff not from me. Who cares what I think? The fact that he couldn't earn major playing time until the past three weeks says a lot more about what his coaches think about him.Moore plays much faster on the field than Bess does, and he has better leaping ability. I stand by my evaluation that he has much better speed. See here for what Moore can do that Bess can't. Here's a better one.
Bess can't even average 10.0 yards per reception, so he's going to need at least 90 receptions to get to 900 -- not 70-80. The bigger problem is that he's going to have to convince a coaching staff to give him full playing time when he's nothing more than a limited role player.
BRONG
FOR A LIMITED TIME ONLY
Yep. I'm also confusing bostonfred with BassNBrew.
gianmarco
Footballguy
Your 1st paragraph completely missed the point. I stated that your stance was that he had no talent. You replied saying you never said that and that I made that up to create an argument. I simply pointed out your reference that the Miami WR's are awful and he couldn't even win a job amongst them and that I took it as an implication that you didn't think he was very good. From your numerous posts about him, it seems pretty obvious you don't think much of him at all. Not sure why you took issue with me claiming that you don't think he has talent. You may not have come out and said those exact words but it certainly seems you think that. If I'm misinterpreting you, then I apologize. I don't think I am though.As to whether or not Moore "plays faster" than Bess on the field, again we'll just have to disagree. We have objective measurements from the combine and pro days that neither one is very fast. 4.55 vs. 4.6 isn't good either way. As I pointed out, I've watched pretty much every single catch of Lance Moore's career. I'm a fan of his. I stated early on before he won the starting job that he was the 2nd best WR the Saints had. So, I know what he can do on the field. That being said, I do not see him being more athletic or faster than Bess. As there's nothing but our eyes to judge that on, we'll just have to agree to disagree there. Check out the link I posted above. Bess looks pretty fast there as well and also seems to play faster than his timed speed. So, I can appreciate you standing by your evaluation from what you see. Likewise, I'll do the same. I think they are very comparable players in terms of size, speed, athletic ability, hands, and route running. Moore's advantage comes from playing in New Orleans vs. Miami.
As to Bess not being able to average 10 yds per reception, now you're just being short-sighted. Are we going to base his future NFL career on just 1 year? Last year he averaged 10.3 ypr on 54 catches. So sorry, but he CAN average 10.0 yards per reception. He's just not this year. A big reason for his low YPC is the way he's used as well as the current offense that he's a part of. It doesn't mean he's not capable of it.
In the end, you see him as nothing more than a limited role player. Quite possible and likely that's all he ends up being. Just keep in mind, that's all Wes Welker was before he went to New England. That's all Lance Moore was until he cracked the starting lineup in his 4th year with New Orleans. That's all Wayne Chrebet was either. Another 5'10, undersized, undrafted WR who didn't score many TDs early on.
ETA--Julian Edelman is yet another 5'10, slow (4.63), undrafted WR who has shown the same traits as these other guys and can likely be productive in the right situation. Right now, he's just a limited role player as well.
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gianmarco
Footballguy
Wes Welker 2005/2006 as a Miami Dolphin: 96 catches, 1121 yards and 1 TD in 32 games. 5'9, 185 lbs, 4.61 40 timeDavone Bess 2008/2009 as a Miami Dolphin: 100 catches, 951 yards and 1 TD in 26 games. 5'10, 190 lbs, 4.60 40 timeI can safely say that NO ONE would predict Welker would go on to score 8 TDs, 4 TDs, and now already 4 TDs in just 8 games the following year based on his size and speed. All it took was a chance in scenery. I can also safely say that I was glad I had picked up Welker midway through that 2006 season when I noticed all the balls he was catching and was thrilled when he went to a better passing situation. The rest is history.To say he will NEVER be a guy to catch TDs because he's undersized and "slow" means that Welker's 8 TD season and Lance Moore's 10 TD season defy all odds. I can't say one way or the other whether he's as talented as those guys as I haven't watched him enough, but the numbers are certainly making me want to pay attention and take notice.He has played in 26 games and has 1 TD. To put it another way, he has 1 TD in 130 career targets. Given we can see reasons for this, as noted by F&L, I don't see any reason why this will change.I can't say I'm particularly impressed with his career 9.5 ypr average, either. Frankly, I'd have to be in quite a bind to consider rostering him, much less starting him.ETA: He is averaging less than 4.1 fantasy points per game this year. Ugh.
gianmarco
Footballguy
Well, we can do this all day:Welker--Shuttle -- 4.023 cone drill -- 7.09Lance Moore -- Shuttle -- 4.323 cone drill -- 7.12D. Bess --Shuttle -- 4.273 cone drill -- 6.97So Bess actually had the quickest 3 cone drill. Bess also outjumped Welker in the broad jump and the vertical. Lance Moore outjumped both, particularly in the vertical. Either way, all 3 of these guys rely on quickness, route running, agility, and hands to succeed in the NFL. They aren't big, they aren't strong, they aren't going to blow by defenders. This caused all 3 of them to go undrafted. Yet, they've all shown they can catch balls at the NFL level. The 2 that have been the most successful so far did so because of talent but also because of situation. Wes Welker had an amazingly similar start as Davone Bess and there was nothing to demonstrate from how he started that he'd be able to catch as many TD's as he did or be so successful in New England except for whatever they may have seen that caused them to trade for him. He also started off simply catching a lot of balls, not going for a high YPC and definitely not scoring but once in 2 years. Again, I have a very hard time believing a guy that can catch over 100 balls in his 1st 1 1/2 yrs has limited talent and is doomed to be nothing more than a role player. It's just a matter of opportunity. Can't get much worse than Miami right now. Being as small and "slow" as he is, he's gotta have some quickness and ability to be able to get open and catch balls against NFL caliber DB's.
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Tau837
Footballguy
gianmarco, are you in fact Davone Bess? Or his agent? You are investing an awful lot of effort in promoting an absolutely marginal candidate here. Kudos to you if you're right, but I think it's an extreme long shot.
Regardless of the merits of the comparisons to Welker and Moore, that's only two datapoints, and those two guys really only emerged when they went to one of the few best situations in the league. Are you banking on Bess moving to the Pats, Saints, or Colts? But even then, the problem is that I don't see how he would get substantial playing time on those teams.
For me, I have more valuable players at the end of every one of my benches, redraft and dynasty, and I'll take the minimal risk there is in passing on Bess and missing out if he emerges with real fantasy value.
Regardless of the merits of the comparisons to Welker and Moore, that's only two datapoints, and those two guys really only emerged when they went to one of the few best situations in the league. Are you banking on Bess moving to the Pats, Saints, or Colts? But even then, the problem is that I don't see how he would get substantial playing time on those teams.
For me, I have more valuable players at the end of every one of my benches, redraft and dynasty, and I'll take the minimal risk there is in passing on Bess and missing out if he emerges with real fantasy value.
gianmarco
Footballguy
I am.....Davone Bess
No, but in all seriousness, and as I've already admitted, the chances of him becoming useful are pretty slim. He doesn't have the pedigree. He lacks most of the physical tools. And he's in a terrible situation. I understand all of this. Despite this, I found it pretty interesting how quietly he's racking up catches and when I looked further into it, the list and company that surrounds that achievement is impressive to say the least. Of course, he's likely to be Wayne Chrebet at best, but that's fine. I think there's little downside to him as he can still be useful. I agree that he's likely going to need some change of scenery to have any type of upside but if there's something we all should know by now is that things DO change and they can change fast. I wasn't making it up when I said I grabbed Welker the year before he went off to New England and it turned out to be a very fortunate move for me. Mostly blind luck but what caught my eye was the receptions he was racking up. I simply see the same thing here and that's probably why I'm as interested as I am. The more I looked at what he's done, that interest went up even more. The nice thing is that the guy is dirt cheap right now. Honestly, there isn't much more for me to say about him as I've spent more than enough time on a long-shot guy. I just hope this turns out to be a thread that can bumped sometime in the future 
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
He's having a nice day. I liked him a lot in college and am happy he is being productive.
However, it seems like Bess and Camarillo are similar possession or slot (generic usage) receivers. Great for bubble screens and quick slants, but neither has the speed to be a deep outside threat.
Fins fans - safe to say Ginn is done? What's the contract situation? Elite speed, but he has never developed in terms of doing all the little things it takes to be a quality NFL starting WR. Will they bring someone in (FA) or address it in the draft? Or are their other needs more pressing that will make a WR in rounds 1-3 unlikely?
I like Bess a lot, but I think he will be more effective if they can get a big WR or speedster to play opposite him.
However, it seems like Bess and Camarillo are similar possession or slot (generic usage) receivers. Great for bubble screens and quick slants, but neither has the speed to be a deep outside threat.
Fins fans - safe to say Ginn is done? What's the contract situation? Elite speed, but he has never developed in terms of doing all the little things it takes to be a quality NFL starting WR. Will they bring someone in (FA) or address it in the draft? Or are their other needs more pressing that will make a WR in rounds 1-3 unlikely?
I like Bess a lot, but I think he will be more effective if they can get a big WR or speedster to play opposite him.
FUBAR
Footballguy
Trade Ginn to Al Davis. Sign or draft a real WR1.
jwb
Footballguy
Gian would've traded him to me yesterday for what I think is fair (not inflated) value, so I don't think he's promoting him or anything. I think it's more just interesting discussion (which Gian does well, I might add).Nice day by Bess today. I probably should have accepted
(seems to be the story of my year this year.)
gianmarco
Footballguy
Well, he ended up finishing 15th in the NFL amongst WR's in receptions. 76 catches for 758 yds and 2 TDs.
He finished as WR31 in my 1 ppr league. That's not too shabby.
So, in 2 years, he has 130 receptions for 1312 yds and 3 TDs. Not a bad start. He ended up 17th on the list of all WR's for catches in their first 2 years in the league. If he remains in Miami, his upside will remain limited to pretty much what we see now for the most part. A solid WR4 option for bye weeks/injuries in a ppr league. But, if this guy changes scenery and goes to a pass happy offense, his numbers have a chance to go up a good bit I think. Great stash at a very cheap price right now.
He finished as WR31 in my 1 ppr league. That's not too shabby.
So, in 2 years, he has 130 receptions for 1312 yds and 3 TDs. Not a bad start. He ended up 17th on the list of all WR's for catches in their first 2 years in the league. If he remains in Miami, his upside will remain limited to pretty much what we see now for the most part. A solid WR4 option for bye weeks/injuries in a ppr league. But, if this guy changes scenery and goes to a pass happy offense, his numbers have a chance to go up a good bit I think. Great stash at a very cheap price right now.
Wadsworth
Footballguy
While those numbers aren't bad, Matt Jones had 65 catches for 761 yards and 2 TDs in 12 games in 2008 and was out of the NFL in 2009. They aren't exactly numbers that are blowing me away. But it's still interesting that he's done it under the radar for the most part and he could become a fantasy force if the pecking order is cleared up in Miami. Of course with the Welker injury the Phins might trade him to NE.
gianmarco
Footballguy
As discussed above, Wes Welker is also only 5'10 and ran a 4.6. He DID land in a perfect situation. The thing is, Bess is the kind of guy a perfect situation might look for if the spot opens up. Like an ACL and MCL tear or something......
Also, not every player needs WR1 to have value or to be worthwhile in acquiring. If what you see is what you get with him, WR31 with 10 ppg/week has value to most every team.
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Anthony Borbely
Footballguy
Welker and Bess may have the same 40 times, but Welker plays a lot faster. If I never knew the 40 times and just watched them on the field, I would never guess their times were the same because Welker looks a lot faster on the field.
BigTex
Don't mess with Texas
40 times is the most abused stat in ALL of Football. Here's an old article which as great value to 40 times:
http://texastech.scout.com/2/564503.html
I know this Bess argument was beat to death but with Miami not getting a Wr in free agency and the only thing out there is Owens which Parcells would never add I think Bess can be a good number 3 fantasy Wr. The one thing that I kept hearing in these argument is Welker and Moore and how they look so much faster which I disagree with. The reason those two look faster is the have Brady and Brees where Bess has Penny and Henne. Moore and Welker get the ball throw to them in stride the minute they get open where Henne will get better but isn't there. You think theres a reason player like Eldeman, Henderson, Garcon, Collie, Welker, and Moore all look like they are faster then they are. Branch is a good example of a player who looked like a star with Brady but looks like an average Wr with even a good Qb like Hass. I hope people keep hating on him because as Henne improves so will Bess.
buster c
Footballguy
STOP BUMPING OLD THREADS LIKE THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2ND YEAR WR'S?
NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2ND YEAR WR'S?
NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
thecardiackid
Footballguy
fixed.buster, relax dude. it was a good call for anyone in ppr dynasty - looking better by the week. so it's actually relevant.
jwb
Footballguy
Agreed - nice PPR wr. He's not a TD or yardage machine or anything, but he's a solid weekly play in start 3 wr leagues. And yea, it seems he's getting better.
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