Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Omar Vizquel . . . HOFer? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter David Yudkin
- Start date
The Man With No Name
Footballguy
Yes, for sure.
All the Gold Gloves, the best fielding percentage of any shortstop EVER. And he always had great range, with spectacular plays being expected, not suprising.
All the Gold Gloves, the best fielding percentage of any shortstop EVER. And he always had great range, with spectacular plays being expected, not suprising.
Last edited by a moderator:
MrPhoenix
Ron Paul Soldier
He'll have one of the worst career BA's in the HOF, but his defensive wizardry cannot be denied access to the HOF. In the early 90's, the great debate was whether Ozzie Smith or Omar Vizquel was the better fielder at SS. Being the homer I am, I'd give Ozzie the edge from 1990-1993.
NY/NJMFDIVER
Footballguy
My inital argument would be to measure him against Conception, but he seems to out point him across the board. Omar played strong D in an unprecented era of offensive dominance at his position. The end result was him making 3 all star teams.
That said, its not like guys like Larkin, Ripken, Jeter, and A-Rod were butchers in the field. He's closer to Tony Fernandez than those guys, and he's not a HOFer to me, but a very compelling case. He'll benefit from perhaps a roid backlash, and I wouldn't go crazy if he made it, but to me, he's on the outside looking in.
Call me back though if he breaks 2700 hits.
That said, its not like guys like Larkin, Ripken, Jeter, and A-Rod were butchers in the field. He's closer to Tony Fernandez than those guys, and he's not a HOFer to me, but a very compelling case. He'll benefit from perhaps a roid backlash, and I wouldn't go crazy if he made it, but to me, he's on the outside looking in.
Call me back though if he breaks 2700 hits.
Darth Cheney
Footballguy
I think Omar is in. This is one of those HOF cases where a HOFer (Ozzie) has set the standard for others of his ilk to be inducted. With the general opinion of Ozzie making it as a defensive SS.... both Omar's career defensive and offensive numbers are better than the Wizards......
The Man With No Name
Footballguy
Just among the shortstops that are in, he has a higher average than Luis Aparicio, Rabbit Maranville, Phil Rizzuto, Pee Wee Reese, Ozzie Smith, Joe Tinker, Bobby Wallace, and the same as Ernie Banks.
MrPhoenix
Ron Paul Soldier
So, Omar would have 7 worse, one the same (who contributed much more as a hitter), and 14 better.The defense rests.Just among the shortstops that are in, he has a higher average than Luis Aparicio, Rabbit Maranville, Phil Rizzuto, Pee Wee Reese, Ozzie Smith, Joe Tinker, Bobby Wallace, and the same as Ernie Banks.
The Man With No Name
Footballguy
No. You can't count Negro league players.That's just the shortstops. I'm not looking up all the players, but I know Mike Schmidt and Brooks Robinson had lower than Vizquel's.So, Omar would have 7 worse, one the same (who contributed much more as a hitter), and 14 better.The defense rests.
TitusIII
Footballguy
Although, he will... 
NY/NJMFDIVER
Footballguy
You guys are easy graders. When Ozzie played, he was unrivaled for defense in his prime. We are debating a diminished Ozzie still being better than a young Omar, and during the late 90's Rey Ordonez was probably a better fielder than Omar, certainly in the argument at that point.
How many SS from Omar's era will make it?
We are up to 4 right now, not counting Ozzie
How many SS from Omar's era will make it?
We are up to 4 right now, not counting Ozzie
The Man With No Name
Footballguy
What? Ordonez has 3 gold gloves to Vizquel's 11, including 9 in a row, and the last 2 while being in the National league with Ordonez.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Alan Trammell>Omar Vizquel.
So no.
So no.
NY/NJMFDIVER
Footballguy
Hence, I highlighted the late 90's for Ordonez. Vizquel might have been more fundamentally sound, but Ordonez had the flash and range, as did Ozzie in the early 90's. If you are going to go in the hall for your D, I think you need to be a Sportscenter staple or anchor a few championship teams, ala Reese or Rizzuto. Those guys were a couple of coattail hall of famers, but they played on some great teams and were no small part of them.
dparker713
Footballguy
He got the last 2 on reputation alone. Adam Everett is a much better defensive player at this point. Its kinda like how Bonds kept winning Gold Gloves. While everyone wants to compare him to Ozzie, he really needs to be compared to the other short stops of his day. He's an old school SS in that hes a plus defensively but not offensively. That mold was changed with Ripken and has been shattered by the current crop of SS. Sorry, but in his generation, you need to be a complete SS to make the HOF.The Man With No Name said:
pigskin pimp
Footballguy
visquel = conception
Knightro
Footballguy
If you're going to get in on defense alone, you have to be an absolute stud without question. His range factor ( http://www.baseball-reference.com/v/vizquom01.shtml ) has consistently been above league average save the 2006 season.
As others have said, the chances for defensive specialists to get in is damn near impossible in this offensive era. Besides, I thought Tony Fernandez played the position better
As others have said, the chances for defensive specialists to get in is damn near impossible in this offensive era. Besides, I thought Tony Fernandez played the position better
Bobcat10
Footballguy
I'll just say this...I don't know if he'll get in or not, but he should be highly considered.
For those that mention that he only went to 3 All Star games...anyone that really thinks about that would say that in itself is amazing with Ripken, Tejada, Jeter, ARod, and Nomar all piling up All Star game appearances in the AL. Do you not think he'd have been to more if he played in the NL? Who was piling them up there, Larkin?
Some of you are out of your mind saying defense is overrated and guys like Fernandez and Everett play a better SS. C'mon, please.
For those that mention that he only went to 3 All Star games...anyone that really thinks about that would say that in itself is amazing with Ripken, Tejada, Jeter, ARod, and Nomar all piling up All Star game appearances in the AL. Do you not think he'd have been to more if he played in the NL? Who was piling them up there, Larkin?
Some of you are out of your mind saying defense is overrated and guys like Fernandez and Everett play a better SS. C'mon, please.
Last edited by a moderator:
Knightro
Footballguy
Really?Fernandez: year/his range factor/league range factor1985/4.76/3.931986/4.53/3.941987/4.56/4.021988/4.66/4.141989/5.25/4.111990/4.83/4.001991/4.74/3.881992/4.19/3.861993/4.85/4.101994/2.37/2.24 (at 3B)1995/4.03/4.161996 (out)1997/4.61/4.33 (at 2B)1998/4.27/4.14 (at 2B)career/4.22/3.77Vizquel career 4.40/4.11Vizquel has the higher career average and stayed at the same position but Fernandez outclassed his peers at the position. In years that Fernandez and Vizquel overlapped (year/Tony/Omar) at the same position:1989: 5.25/4.171990: 4.83/4.221991: 4.74/4.681992: 4.19/4.601993: 4.85/4.604 out of 5 years, Tony >> Omar.Fernandez was one hell of a player in his prime that unfortunately played in some small markets in the prime of his career.
Frenchy Fuqua
Footballguy
Tough call. I try to measure any HOF debate by grading a player against peers from his own era. Vizquel is certainly the best defensive SS of his era. But when you compare his offensive numbers to guys like A-Rod (when he was a SS), Jeter, Tejada, etc. I don't think he merits HOF induction. Guys like Vizquel or Barry Larkin were very good shortstops for a long time but never the best of their era. The SS position has changed since the Ozzie Smith/Cal Ripken days. Both guys would have had more difficulty getting in the HOF measured against today's top shortstops.
Bobcat10
Footballguy
Thanks. Do they also track downright amazing plays?
David Yudkin
Footballguy
I think McCarver is too caught up in current players to think this through clearly. Back in the day, I remember players like Jim Rice, Dwight Evans, Ted Simmons, and Steve Garvey were all considered "future Hall of Famers" and where are they now?
After further research, heck no.Even Concepcion era-adjusted still >> Vizquel. Omar could not compare to Ozzie in the field, and was an even more inept offensive player so this argument is overstated as well.
Bobcat10
Footballguy
Barring significant injury, it's a lock he'll be back somewhere in 2008, and it wouldn't suprise me to see him go two more. I saw an interview recently where he basically said he could go a few more.
shuke
Black Ice Skeptic
So is Steve Finley a lock if he plays about 3-4 more years?
the moops
Footballguy
Omar is a better offensive player than Ozzie. They both suck, but Ozzie was real bad at the plate.Ozzie slugged .328 and had an OBP of .337. Those are horrific numbersshuke said:
the moops
Footballguy
Does anyone mistake Finley for being the best defensive OF'er in baseball?I actually dont think that Omar is, or ever was the best defensive SS, but he certainly has that reputaion amongst sportswriters and has the gold gloves to somewhat prove them correct.
shuke
Black Ice Skeptic
To me, the HOF is reserved for stars of the game. Three all-star appearances just isn't cutting it for me. When I think of greats of the game, I don't think about guys like Vizquel or even Craig Biggio.You can compare stats all you want, but for an era, Ozzie definied the position.
I pretty much agree with Shuke....except as strong a Craig Biggio basher as I am...he is way, way, way better than Omar Vizquel. 7 times an all star, and 5 times in the top 20 in MVP voting (compared to 3 and 1 for Vizquel). As great as a defensive player Vizquel is/was, Biggio also had 4 gold gloves and his offensive accomplishments are much more heralded than Vizquel (5 silver sluggers, 286 hr's, 1800+ runs, 1400+ rbi's, 400+ sb's) vs (74 hr's, 1300+ runs, 800+ rbi's, 370+ sb's)Biggio for about 7-8 years or so was one of the best offensive players in the and more than adequate with the glove. Vizquel may have had a stretch of 10-12 years where he was the best defensive shortstop in the majors, but he was not at all an offensive force. Vizquel only batted one year over .300 and at 40 years old now, he'll be very hard pressed to get 3000 hits...considering he's NEVER had 200 hits in one year, and has averaged about 160/year over the last 7 years....he'd need to play until he was Julio Franco's age.
Bobcat10
Footballguy
If ARod, Tejada, Nomar, Jeter, etc all played in the NL, would Omar have about 10 ASG apps by now when he was in the AL? Let's say yes, then why would you say Omar shouldn't get in? You get to the ASG from popularity and offensive numbers (especially power). I'm not sure why that is such a huge factor in determining HOF players. Not saying it shouldn't be a factor, but circumstance has to be considered.
Last edited by a moderator:
The metrics you are using are way too simplistic. Advanced metrics (adjusting for league equivalent, baserunning etc) would show Ozzie was quite a bit better offensive player than Vizquel, and to say Ozzie is better than someone is saying a lot.Omar is a better offensive player than Ozzie. They both suck, but Ozzie was real bad at the plate.Ozzie slugged .328 and had an OBP of .337. Those are horrific numbersshuke said:After further research, heck no.Even Concepcion era-adjusted still >> Vizquel. Omar could not compare to Ozzie in the field, and was an even more inept offensive player so this argument is overstated as well.
NY/NJMFDIVER
Footballguy
Its an admittedly imperfect means of evaluating players against their contemporaries. We as much compare players by asking were they the best at their position when they played the game? We are in truly THE golden age of MLB shortstops, but if Vizquel were amongst the best at his position, you would assume you would see him better represented in ASG's. It's not like Cleveland was above stuffing the ballot box.
The Man With No Name
Footballguy
All Star voting is and has been a joke. It has been a popularity contest and offensive firepower (home run hitters) gets in over average and defense.
Big market teams have more fans to vote, and they will vote for their home team players over a small market team player with similar or even better stats. Fans want to see offense, and generally don't vote for the best defensive players.
Big market teams have more fans to vote, and they will vote for their home team players over a small market team player with similar or even better stats. Fans want to see offense, and generally don't vote for the best defensive players.
Last edited by a moderator:
stevegamer
Footballguy
Are you seriously trying to compare Omar Vizquel to Mike Schmidt offensively? I'm not sure Vizquel wasn't better defensively at SS than Schmidt was at 3B, but at the plate, it's a one-sided joke - and Vizquel is the joke:Vizquel: .274/.340/.358 BA/OBP/SLGNo. You can't count Negro league players.That's just the shortstops. I'm not looking up all the players, but I know Mike Schmidt and Brooks Robinson had lower than Vizquel's.So, Omar would have 7 worse, one the same (who contributed much more as a hitter), and 14 better.The defense rests.Just among the shortstops that are in, he has a higher average than Luis Aparicio, Rabbit Maranville, Phil Rizzuto, Pee Wee Reese, Ozzie Smith, Joe Tinker, Bobby Wallace, and the same as Ernie Banks.
Schmidt .267/.380/.527 BA/OBP/SLG in a harder era.
And before you take about steals: Vizquel is ahead: a 71% basestealer vs. 65% for Schmidt.
I won't discuss all-star appearances or MVP votes.
Robinson also owns Vizquel at the plate, but it's not such a big discrepancy in raw numbers, but his era was even harder.
So even if Vizquel is the greatest defensive shortstop ever, he's still not Schmidt or Robinson - who are your main candidates at 3b for that title, and they both could hit. Vizquel, not so much.
The Man With No Name
Footballguy
No, not at all. Phoenix said he would have one of the worst batting averages and I just noted 2 that I knew without looking that were lower than his.Are you seriously trying to compare Omar Vizquel to Mike Schmidt offensively? I'm not sure Vizquel wasn't better defensively at SS than Schmidt was at 3B, but at the plate, it's a one-sided joke - and Vizquel is the joke:Vizquel: .274/.340/.358 BA/OBP/SLGNo. You can't count Negro league players.That's just the shortstops. I'm not looking up all the players, but I know Mike Schmidt and Brooks Robinson had lower than Vizquel's.So, Omar would have 7 worse, one the same (who contributed much more as a hitter), and 14 better.The defense rests.Just among the shortstops that are in, he has a higher average than Luis Aparicio, Rabbit Maranville, Phil Rizzuto, Pee Wee Reese, Ozzie Smith, Joe Tinker, Bobby Wallace, and the same as Ernie Banks.
Schmidt .267/.380/.527 BA/OBP/SLG in a harder era.
And before you take about steals: Vizquel is ahead: a 71% basestealer vs. 65% for Schmidt.
I won't discuss all-star appearances or MVP votes.
Robinson also owns Vizquel at the plate, but it's not such a big discrepancy in raw numbers, but his era was even harder.
So even if Vizquel is the greatest defensive shortstop ever, he's still not Schmidt or Robinson - who are your main candidates at 3b for that title, and they both could hit. Vizquel, not so much.
shuke
Black Ice Skeptic
You do realize that only the starters are voted on by the fans, right?And it's not all about offensive firepower. Ozzie Smith appeared 15 ASGs, Roberto Alomar 12.
The Man With No Name
Footballguy
Roberto Alomar was an above average hitter for 2nd basemen. Smith was an all star his last 3 seasons because of his popularity- he didn't even play in half the games.It doesn't matter what we beleive, we have no say in Hall Of Fame voting. He probably won't get in based on his lack of power hitting among shortstops in his era.
Last edited by a moderator:
NY/NJMFDIVER
Footballguy
Would any of you guys have taken Omar over Barry Larkin? And Barry Larkin will have an uphill climb to make Cooperstown.
To me, it's not even close, Barry by a mile.
To me, it's not even close, Barry by a mile.
stevegamer
Footballguy
I'd take Larkin as well.
dparker713
Footballguy
![[scooter]](/data/avatars/m/22/22287.jpg?1659477690){kind=avatar}
