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Open Senior Bowl Thread for Night owls (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Sigmund Bloom
- Start date
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
Tony Hunt?
Pat Patriot
Footballguy
Did Tom Brady play in the Senior Bowl? How did he do?
As we've been saying, too upright, lacks burst, lacks short area quickness, not living up to his New Year's Day performance. Out of contention for 3rd RB in our opinion.
I don't remember him playing in the Senior Bowl, but I can't say 100%.
This might make you go
, but he looked like Reggie Bush without the spectacular individual plays, and we expect him to be used similarly in the NFL.
Pat Patriot
Footballguy
What does that even mean? Bush without the great plays? What is Bush without the great plays?This might make you go
See North practice thread - eye popping quickness, speed, strength (in blitz pickup - his agent says he'll be the strongest RB at the combine), great natural RB skills such as vision, setting up 2nd level defenders, acceleration, second gear in open field. On a different level than any of the other RBs for playmaking ability.
Capella
Footballguy
wannabee
Footballguy
this clip made meThis might make you go, but he looked like Reggie Bush without the spectacular individual plays, and we expect him to be used similarly in the NFL.
when I first saw it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvPumoZFpl4Sorry if hijack. I just think Booker could be a Bush/Westbrook type of RB if used right.
It means that Bush makes transcendental creative plays that it seems like only Bush could make - Booker has the same kind of change of direction, acceleration, vision, and natural running ability as Bush, without the unbelievable creativity on the fly (edit to add: ok wannabee's youtube clip makes me think maybe he can make Bush type plays....) - now that doesn't mean he can't do it, just that we haven't seen it at Florida St, which was a offensive black hole while Booker was there.What does that even mean? Bush without the great plays? What is Bush without the great plays?This might make you go
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Capella
Footballguy
he was the top recruit in the nation four years ago, and had the misfortune of being put in an offense run by chuckles the clown.I guarantee you if he was wise and went to USC like he was considering, he'd be looking at a top-20 pick at worst right now. He has breakaway speed, very good vision, soft hands and great cutback ability, like Bloom has mentioned. I've seen it in spurts. Unfortunately, the moron running the offense the past four years didn't know how to cultivate his talent.Going to be a steal for some NFL team, and some dynasty team picking at 10-12.
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Frenchy Fuqua
Footballguy
I saw Gruden was pumped up about Troy Smith...last time he was this excited about a player he drafted Caddy. Have you noticed Gruden spending an inordinant amount of time with TS?
Smith because of better intangibles, less bust risk, better consistency/accuracy, more adept at making something out of nothing when play breaks down - although Stanton has a higher upside
EBF
Footballguy
atsselfonback:
Cecil and I were just talking about this! Carriker is so huge that he would almost be wasted as a 4-3 DE - he's even got some room to add 10-20 more pounds and will be a terror in a 3-4. Carriker would be a fine 4-3 DE, but better in a 3-4.
We weren't watching Gruden closely, but we've been talking to the Pewter Report guys all week, and we'll ask them this tomorrow, look for an extended interview with Jim and Scott from the Pewter Report coming soon on the Audible.
EBF
Footballguy
He's 188 pounds.188 pounds!The local recruiting guru was huge on his prospects back in his St. Bonny days, but he always looked so damn skinny for a RB. I wondered if he really had much of an NFL future given his slight frame. No doubt the kid has skills. He looked great in FSU's bowl game, but there hasn't been a starting RB in the NFL under 190 pounds in recent memory. He'll probably be a third-down/slot guy. Everyone says he's a workout warrior, so you can expect some monster numbers at the combine. 2nd-3rd round seems right. Some team will think they can make a Maurice Drew or Reggie Bush out of him. He doesn't have the size of either of those guys and he's not as fluid or gifted as Bush, but I suppose he could make an impact.
Capella
Footballguy
not going to be a pilemover. going to be a poor man's reggie bush -- return kicks, split out wide, get 10-15 carries a game and make a difference.
did all that stuff at state (including playing as the slot receiver -- was even going to start there the final two games until antoine smith got hurt) -- he's gifted, going to be fun to watch in the pros.
did all that stuff at state (including playing as the slot receiver -- was even going to start there the final two games until antoine smith got hurt) -- he's gifted, going to be fun to watch in the pros.
poor... that's maybe a bit harsh... how about moderately wealthy?
EBF
Footballguy
I don't doubt that he's strong. Nor do I doubt that he's talented. He was a very well-known prospect coming out of high school. I think he broke some CA records and I think he may have been Gatorade Player of the Year. However, it will be tough for him to be a full-time guy in the NFL at that weight. Smallish pass-catching backs have been very effective in the NFL lately (Bush, Barber, Westbrook, Drew, etc.), but 188 pounds will be pushing the limits. Maybe he can be kind of like a hyped up Amp Lee. He's definitely an interesting prospect in PPR leagues. Thanks for the notes. Would you say he has looked better than Kenny Irons? I feel like the race for the RB3 slot will come down to Irons, Booker, and M. Bush. Not a very exciting group, IMO. They all have size issues. Booker and Irons are too small. Bush is too big.
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Clearly more talented than Irons and any other RB here. To say that Booker and Irons are too small, and that Bush is too big is assuming that every team wants a 25 touch a game feature back, but we are in the new age of the RBBC where teams have more than one talented RB with different skillsets and different plays and sets to highlight their abilities. Booker and Irons are only too small and Bush is only too big if they are used incorrectly.
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EBF
Footballguy
Any talented player will find his niche. My point is that the vast majority of the top RBs in FF fall somewhere in the range of (5'8" to 6'2" and 200 to 235 pounds). I start to get very worried when someone is outside that range. Can Booker and Irons be good third down backs? Probably. Can they be do-it-all wonders like LaDainian Tomlinson or Steven Jackson? Probably not. Ditto M. Bush. He might be able to assume a Brandon Jacobs role and in the absolutely perfect scenario he might be able to put up Stephen Davis-like numbers, but I see him as more of a role player. That will hurt his FF value. I'm not saying these guys aren't worth considering. I'm just saying that I don't expect this group of second tier backs to yield a Frank Gore or an Ahman Green. I just don't see that guy out there this year. Of course, things might get interesting if Denver decides to play the RB lotto on draft day. We'll have to wait and see how the pieces fall in April.
EBF
Footballguy
Dunn has been a solid player throughout his career. But I think it's worth noting that he has always shared carries. Yea, he's been a starter and an effective one, but he's not like an Edge/Alexander/LT/Faulk. Booker can be good. I'm not denying that. He was listed in my overall rookie draft top 12 a couple weeks back and I've gone on record as saying he could make a run at the RB3 slot. All I'm saying is that his weight is cause for pause. He seems destined for a RBBC career.
Ok, you are talking FF and we are talking straight draft stock, sorry for the confusion. Still, Westbrook was an excellent fantasy RB even when he wasnt being used as a classic feature back, so I wouldnt write Booker off too quickly - although for fantasy, yes, he won't be a top 5 RB. I don't think anyone was saying that he would be.Agreed on Denver being interesting, especially if they take Irons. I would even toy with Irons as high as the top 5 or 6 if he's a Bronco.
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EBF
Footballguy
When I was talking about the second tier RBs I forgot to mention Antonio Pittman. He's one of the only guys in the group of lesser backs who might have the right combination of skills and build to assume full-time starter duties.
Anyhow, I appreciate the info. It sounds like Booker is making himself some money down there.
Anyhow, I appreciate the info. It sounds like Booker is making himself some money down there.
Ok everyone, we have to hit the hay to prepare for our last day here (dang real lives to get back to!)
EBF
Footballguy
It kind of seems like a good fit. They had a lot of success with Portis and he wasn't much bigger or more highly-regarded than Irons is at this point.
just because we can find one exception (i thought immediately of dunn, too, but didn't know about his number of carries relative to faulk in his prime), doesn't all of a sudden blow up the useful heuristic of looking at physical prototypes & how comp players of varying size translate to NFL...
if size was really overrated, there would be lots of 150 lb starting RBs... there aren't...
if anything, dunn is the exception that proves the rule...
though with the success of drew, i'm taking a hard look at the need to be 5'8" or bigger... westbrook is that size, & i think drew is 5'7" tops... but he has a massive lower body with tree trunk legs (westbrook also has deceptive lower body & tackle breaking strength)...
its still tough to be a feature RB if you are less than 190 lb (i think portis entered the league around that weight, but has bulked up considerably... & he has still been banged up a lot recently)... impossible? of course not... but the odds would seem to be stacked against it (to be a feature RB... being part of RBBC is different story)...
if size was really overrated, there would be lots of 150 lb starting RBs... there aren't...
if anything, dunn is the exception that proves the rule...
though with the success of drew, i'm taking a hard look at the need to be 5'8" or bigger... westbrook is that size, & i think drew is 5'7" tops... but he has a massive lower body with tree trunk legs (westbrook also has deceptive lower body & tackle breaking strength)...
its still tough to be a feature RB if you are less than 190 lb (i think portis entered the league around that weight, but has bulked up considerably... & he has still been banged up a lot recently)... impossible? of course not... but the odds would seem to be stacked against it (to be a feature RB... being part of RBBC is different story)...
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pizzatyme
Footballguy
I've been telling that to my wife for years!
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
With the emergence of the 1a/1b rotation of backs in the league, I think Booker has the chance to have a great career in the NFL.
Hey Vikings! Anderson in the first, Higgins in the second, and Booker in the third, please! Booker would be a great compliment to Chester Taylor, and would easily replace the China Doll known as Mewelde Moore.
Hey Vikings! Anderson in the first, Higgins in the second, and Booker in the third, please! Booker would be a great compliment to Chester Taylor, and would easily replace the China Doll known as Mewelde Moore.
THE UNDERCOVER BROTHA
Footballguy
Hey Bloom
Is D.Wynn from florida there? I like what i saw of him this year in spurts and in this rb class, he have the look of a real RB to me. whats your take on him. I love his size, center of gravity, he has nice moves as well. I know he's been somewhat of a headcase but seeing whats in this class i think he could very well be a nice suprise next year.
Also, how you rate Pittman compared to Hurt/Irons/Bush/ and Booker.
I have him rated above all of them. I think he's more of a natural rb than all of them and i think he will translate well to the NFL.
whats your take.
Is D.Wynn from florida there? I like what i saw of him this year in spurts and in this rb class, he have the look of a real RB to me. whats your take on him. I love his size, center of gravity, he has nice moves as well. I know he's been somewhat of a headcase but seeing whats in this class i think he could very well be a nice suprise next year.
Also, how you rate Pittman compared to Hurt/Irons/Bush/ and Booker.
I have him rated above all of them. I think he's more of a natural rb than all of them and i think he will translate well to the NFL.
whats your take.
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
My HS alma mater plays Saint Bonny every year in a non league game that has developed into an interesting rivalry. Bonny is in a higher division. Bonny will not travel our way. They have never lost to us. It should always be a blow out, but the games have mostly tight white knucklers in the fourth quarter. A ton of respect has grown between the two programs and we pull hard for each other come CIF with lots of love on the message boards.I saw Booker as a senior. It was unreal. I saw Bush and Drew as a seniors that same year. Those three were hotly debated with most, including myself, falling in Booker's camp.
They were all blazing fast, had great hands, had moves like few I've ever seen. The only thing that I thought separated Booker from Bush, was Bush looked skinnier and Booker had better power. Reggie broke a lot tackles in space, but not in a crowd. Booker had many plays where he disappeared in the crowd and popped out for big yards, shedding tacklers, literally fighting and tearing his way through. Noel Divine and Lorenzo Booker are very similar HS backs.
Booker cried when Reggie won the Heisman. I don't know exactly why, but I read that as regret. He wished he'd gone to USC, or anywhere that would have used him properly. The thing about Booker now, is he never got the experience that Drew and Bush had. It was a problem with arguing against Leinart. You cannot replace the experience and it is valuable. Booker missed out on so much that he has to be behind regardless of talent level. I doubt he can catch up.
It was always hard to notice a discernible difference between Booker and Washington at FSU. When I read someone take one side, ala Booker was lightyears ahead of Leon (or visa versa more commonly), I have to discard that person's opinion. They were very very similar.
EBF knows I own Washington and drafted him a little early last year. I like these kind of backs. I have no concern for Booker's size. It's just talent in the end, and he has plenty to play in the NFL. We never know when a 3rd down back incapable of carrying the load, like Tiki, or Dunn (remember Tampa), or Westbrook is gong to be asked to do so. Booker can if asked. The little guys are more durable than the big guys. Booker has always had excellent power. I think he runs with too much zip, needs patience and lacks vision. I blame FSU for all of that.
boubucarow
Footballguy
I am watching the d-line vs o-line one on one and two on two drills this morning. Carriker looks like gold in a 3-4 but would also be a good 4-3. But my eyes were stuck on Okoye. In another thread here, it was mentioned that he lost weight recently and may not be strong enough right away. However, he destroyed Moses from West Virginia and also a guard with explosive disruption a la Tommie Harris. Of course, his stamina and run game strength would be the concern his first couple years
Guapote
Footballguy
Re. D. Wynn
Yes, he does look great, and I'm sure he'll be drafted based on his build and measurables. The guy just doesn't have the drive to succeed in the NFL, IMO. Fason was a much better back on the field, and he's not exactly having an impact with the Vikings. Wynn had every opportunity to become a significant part of the Florida offense this year and just hasn't stepped up. His whole career at UF has been a failure to live up the expectations based on one play against Miami his freshman year. I hope he gets it together and succeeds, but I wouldn't hold my breath on this. He doesn't appear to have the maturity or drive to become an elite player. Granted, he has had some injury issues, but he's also had issues being in the doghouse with two different coaching staffs.
Yes, he does look great, and I'm sure he'll be drafted based on his build and measurables. The guy just doesn't have the drive to succeed in the NFL, IMO. Fason was a much better back on the field, and he's not exactly having an impact with the Vikings. Wynn had every opportunity to become a significant part of the Florida offense this year and just hasn't stepped up. His whole career at UF has been a failure to live up the expectations based on one play against Miami his freshman year. I hope he gets it together and succeeds, but I wouldn't hold my breath on this. He doesn't appear to have the maturity or drive to become an elite player. Granted, he has had some injury issues, but he's also had issues being in the doghouse with two different coaching staffs.
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EBF
Footballguy
Height is overrated in RBs, but I don't think size is overrated. There isn't a star RB in the league under 200 pounds. I think that's a meaningful fact. Dunn is not a great example to prove your point. He's never been an elite FF back and has always split carries. Faulk is listed at 211 pounds on NFL.com. He's not a comparable player in terms of build. The only recent star FF RB of comparable size to Booker is Portis, and even he was about 10 pounds heavier entering the league. Now he's much bigger. The real problem with the little guys seems to be a lack of goal line work. Low TD numbers are largely to blame for Dunn's inability to break into the elite ranks. If Booker is used like I think he's going to be used then he'll probably get a decent amount of yards and catches, but he won't ever be like Tiki or Westbrook. I see him as being a better version of Amp Lee/an inferior version of Reggie Bush. He's an intriguing option in PPR, but I'm not too excited about his non-PPR prospects. If he does manage to become a premiere FF back then he'll certainly be defying the odds.
EBF
Footballguy
I agree completely. I always thought it was stupid when people assumed that Reggie Bush would never be a 20+ carry per game back just because he split time in college. However, I'm a big believer in trends and I've definitely noticed that the vast majority of the top RBs in the NFL seem to fall in the 5'8" to 6'2" and 200 to 235 pounds range. It is very unusual for guys who don't fit that mold to achieve lasting FF success.
That doesn't mean Booker won't break the mold. But it appears as if recent history is stacked against him.
But he can still be very useful as part of a RBBC. Like I said, kind of a poor man's Bush or a rich man's Amp Lee. If he's very lucky then maybe he can be like Charlie Garner.
EBF
Footballguy
You mean the guy who's listed as 5'10" and 205 pounds? http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1782
There's a big difference between 200 or 205 and 188. That's 12-17 pounds. It's the difference between Ahman Green and Steven Jackson.
CalBear
Footballguy
Have you visisted the USS Alabama; eaten any seafood on the bay or made the drive out to the FloraBama?Bloom, have you all figured out Austin and Mobile are two very different places?
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Cecil Lammey
Footballguy
There are several places in Mobile that are my favorites. We ate at Saucy Q Barbeque, Ruths Chris Steakhouse, and Skips (seafood restaurant by the Bay). Also had plenty of Starbucks to keep us going during our late night recording/writing/drinking sessions.Fat Drunk and Stupid said:Have you gone drinking on Dauphin Street?
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