The Commish
Footballguy
exactly why I asked what his definition of "opportunity" was...never clarified. Then the second post appears to offer the same use of the term. I'd like to know what he means when he says "opportunity".
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Opportunity - The gift our country gives to all (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter tonysmiles
- Start date
The Commish
Footballguy
Conversation has shifted so far, I don't even know what the point is anymore. All I can say is, at this point, it seems the reality that because of their wealth they even have the "opportunity" to flop is completely lost....just a complete disconnect as we meander from one point to the next.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Yeah I just stuck him on ignore with the other trolls. I don’t have time for people who won’t even engage in an actual conversation.
Grace Under Pressure
Footballguy
I tend to agree with this. I wouldn’t classify it as the same opportunity for all though. Can people work hard and do better? Sure. I just find the framing of “they all have the same opportunity” to be almost incredulous when it comes to socioeconomic status.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
and it's absurdity to now talking about fiscal responsibility. Best part of this whole "discussion" though is howis the measure......just not the source
I wouldn't attempt that sort of maneuver in my mental prime. No amount of stretching could get me prepared for that one. And don't think I don't appreciate the "look at all that mobility they squandered after accumulating it through money because they aren't financially responsible" shtick....not lost on me at all. Well done
its never anybody's fault is it? people working hard and making decisions are tossed under the bus and people not working hard, making poor decisions, they get every excuse in the world to why they're the victims
its amazing to watch threads like this - truly
Stealthycat
Footballguy
do you see the irony ?
you don't want to converse so you put them on ignore and your reason is they won't engage/converse?
wow
Stealthycat
Footballguy
its so easy to label people who have more as not hard working, that it all just fell into their laps
sometimes it does - but don't discount just how hard people work in their lives .... even people like Kardashians IMO
The Commish
Footballguy
I gave up trying to figure out what your narrative is...sorryand it's absurdity to now talking about fiscal responsibility. Best part of this whole "discussion" though is how
I wouldn't attempt that sort of maneuver in my mental prime. No amount of stretching could get me prepared for that one. And don't think I don't appreciate the "look at all that mobility they squandered after accumulating it through money because they aren't financially responsible" shtick....not lost on me at all. Well done
its never anybody's fault is it? people working hard and making decisions are tossed under the bus and people not working hard, making poor decisions, they get every excuse in the world to why they're the victims
its amazing to watch threads like this - truly
This started with your comment about the ONLY way for "social mobility" being X,Y,Z. The conversation shifted three or four times away from that to other things once the first statement was shown to be false, and now you're talking about fiscal responsibility. When you're done shoving the goalposts around, let me know and maybe we can have a new conversation about whatever the next thought is that pops into your head.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
I said "social mobility only happens when people have (A) opportunity and (B) hard work and (C) good decisions and choices"
Its not false I don't think ........... inheritance is opportunity, education is opportunity, simply being able to move to another city/state is opportunity
You will not show me many people who are lazy and make poor decisions that are far better off than their parents were
The Commish
Footballguy
ah....ok...got it now. Yes, when damn near everything is labeled "opportunity" I see your point. I was using common definitions...thus the disconnect. Understanding where you are coming from now I'll rephrase my assertion from
TO:In THIS country, the primary driver for "social mobility" is
In THIS country, the primary opportunity for "social mobility" is
Stealthycat
Footballguy
lot of countries don't have opportunity
you're born poor - that's where you stay. You don't get the chances we have here in the USA
In THIS country, the primary opportunity for "social mobility" is
do you mean you have to be born with $$ in order to be better off than you were?
or do you mean that $$ is how we gauge people ??
I mean having wealth IS the way most people measure if they're better off ..... isn't it? that's obvious
FairWarning
Footballguy
Only if they inherit well.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
many people who were born with nothing are middle and middle/upper class today ............ hard work, good decision making
many people who were born with nothing are still poor and don't have nothing ..... they didn't work hard, they didn't make good decisions
in the USA you can choose either route - many countries you cannot - we have OPPORTUNITY here
The Commish
Footballguy
I meant exactly what I said using YOUR definition of "opportunity".
In THIS country, the primary opportunity for "social mobility" is
Sand
Footballguy
Not to get caught up in the nuances of the definition of social mobility and
In THIS country, the primary opportunity for "social mobility" is
, but it is important to point out that:Most of today’s millionaires weren’t born into their wealth, research shows. A 2019 study published by Wealth-X found that around 68% of those with a net worth of $30 million or more made it themselves. Further, a second study by Fidelity Investments found that 88% of all millionaires are self-made, meaning they did not inherit their wealth.
There is tremendous social mobility in this country by the numbers. It isn't perfect and some of the blockage points are very frustrating, but on the whole there is no better place to be blessed to be born than this country.
Reference:
How Do Millionaires Get Their Money?
Millionaires don’t always receive their wealth from family. Some are self-made and earn their fortune through hard work and ingenuity.
The Commish
Footballguy
These aren't the only "routes" we have in this country:
Many people who were born with everything still have everything....no meaningful hard work, good decision making
Many people who were born with everything have nothing....busted their butts, made good decisions, but life's ***** and **** happens sometimes.
Many people who were born with nothing and still have nothing....doing everything in their power to get out of their situation, but can't because life's a ***** and **** happens....can't catch a break.
......we can go on and on and on with "routes" but you should get the point with the above...if not, I suspect no amount of more "routes" will make it click.
The Commish
Footballguy
I think it's very important to understand the definition. As defined by SC, this isn't "social mobility". Though, I will point out, again, that it's interesting we useNot to get caught up in the nuances of the definition of social mobility and
In THIS country, the primary opportunity for "social mobility" is
Most of today’s millionaires weren’t born into their wealth, research shows. A 2019 study published by Wealth-X found that around 68% of those with a net worth of $30 million or more made it themselves. Further, a second study by Fidelity Investments found that 88% of all millionaires are self-made, meaning they did not inherit their wealth.
There is tremendous social mobility in this country by the numbers. It isn't perfect and some of the blockage points are very frustrating, but on the whole there is no better place to be blessed to be born than this country.
Reference:
How Do Millionaires Get Their Money?
Millionaires don’t always receive their wealth from family. Some are self-made and earn their fortune through hard work and ingenuity.www.businessnewsdaily.com
as the key indicator of "social mobility" yet I receive pushback saying the key factor in "social mobility" is You're now the second or third person to do this.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
Stealthycat
Footballguy
what are you talking about now ??
The Commish
Footballguy
Think what you like. This doesn't negate anything I said above unless you believe these sorts of "routes" don't exist in America. If that is indeed what you believe/think, then we're done here. I know people like to believe they are in complete control of their path in life. Reality is, sometimes **** happens and you have absolutely NO control over it.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
"I made it out, you did not so it must be your fault" is most certainly "blame everyone else".
Stealthycat
Footballguy
Think what you like. This doesn't negate anything I said above unless you believe these sorts of "routes" don't exist in America. If that is indeed what you believe/think, then we're done here. I know people like to believe they are in complete control of their path in life. Reality is, sometimes **** happens and you have absolutely NO control over it.
what you DO have control over is reactions
I was born poor - I could have been like half my classmates and cousins and partied hard, graduate with a 2.0 gpa, work factory jobs whatever and been 53 years old, a mobile home and a 1985 truck and hey, that's ok if that's what you want . but don't tell me that had no control over how they reacted to being born into poverty
do you really believe that when things happen you have no control over how you respond? I remember reading once about how many failures successful people had before hitting a very successful idea/business
26 times, I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed." Jordan certainly knew what it was like to fail.Jan 26, 2022
Stealthycat
Footballguy
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
This can be true at the same time there are being too many frustrating blockage points.
I also think that our opportunity skews towards certain "personality types" and some of these are the wrong types to be incentivizing. Maybe I'm making the same mistake as others of using well known exceptions as a rule but the Gates and the Jobs and Zuckerburgs and others that quickly come to mind all had some pretty strong unethical scheming in the mix along the way. How many others have seen opportunity slip away because they wouldn't sell a product that didn't actually exist or screw over their friends and family?
Also, I think when you went from 30 million to 1 million your back to mainly those that made their million with their 401Ks and haven't so much made it to a new class but will be one of lucky ones that don't drop as much in lifestyle post retirement.
Sand
Footballguy
For me, at least, I would say that social mobility and income level in the US are irretrievably intertwined. I wasn't trying to get into a semantic discourse on definitions. I was simply, in an overarching sense, trying to point out there is a tremendous amount of opportunity here - those numbers are pretty compelling.I think it's very important to understand the definition. As defined by SC, this isn't "social mobility". Though, I will point out, again, that it's interesting we useNot to get caught up in the nuances of the definition of social mobility and
In THIS country, the primary opportunity for "social mobility" is
Most of today’s millionaires weren’t born into their wealth, research shows. A 2019 study published by Wealth-X found that around 68% of those with a net worth of $30 million or more made it themselves. Further, a second study by Fidelity Investments found that 88% of all millionaires are self-made, meaning they did not inherit their wealth.
There is tremendous social mobility in this country by the numbers. It isn't perfect and some of the blockage points are very frustrating, but on the whole there is no better place to be blessed to be born than this country.
Reference:
How Do Millionaires Get Their Money?
Millionaires don’t always receive their wealth from family. Some are self-made and earn their fortune through hard work and ingenuity.
whoknew
Footballguy
People cite hard work all the time as if its some magic elixir. "You just work hard enough and you'll have a nice house in the suburbs and money for a big turkey dinner on Sundays."
Its just not true. Maybe it was in 1950. But its not anymore. Its WHAT you work on - WHERE you work - that determines if you will climb out of poverty. If a person is not that smart and grew up poor with no access to the benefits that wealthy people have, he can work 70 hours per week at the McDonalds. He's not going to climb into middle class or upper middle class.
Meanwhile, a lazy, really smart wealthy person can glide through the best schools and go to work as a business analyst somewhere. He can work 40 hours per week and start out making more money than the first guy will ever make.
That's reality. Yet it seems like some folks would blame the first guy for being dumb or lazy or something.
Its just not true. Maybe it was in 1950. But its not anymore. Its WHAT you work on - WHERE you work - that determines if you will climb out of poverty. If a person is not that smart and grew up poor with no access to the benefits that wealthy people have, he can work 70 hours per week at the McDonalds. He's not going to climb into middle class or upper middle class.
Meanwhile, a lazy, really smart wealthy person can glide through the best schools and go to work as a business analyst somewhere. He can work 40 hours per week and start out making more money than the first guy will ever make.
That's reality. Yet it seems like some folks would blame the first guy for being dumb or lazy or something.
(HULK)
(Smash)
Do you know that social mobility has been steadily decreasing in the United States for the past 50 years? In the 1970s, what you are saying about this country was significantly more true than it is today.
(HULK)
(Smash)
Leaving other countries out of it, it was MUCH better to be born in the USA in 1950 than it was to be born in 2000, in terms of social mobility.Not to get caught up in the nuances of the definition of social mobility and
In THIS country, the primary opportunity for "social mobility" is
Most of today’s millionaires weren’t born into their wealth, research shows. A 2019 study published by Wealth-X found that around 68% of those with a net worth of $30 million or more made it themselves. Further, a second study by Fidelity Investments found that 88% of all millionaires are self-made, meaning they did not inherit their wealth.
There is tremendous social mobility in this country by the numbers. It isn't perfect and some of the blockage points are very frustrating, but on the whole there is no better place to be blessed to be born than this country.
Reference:
How Do Millionaires Get Their Money?
Millionaires don’t always receive their wealth from family. Some are self-made and earn their fortune through hard work and ingenuity.
Grace Under Pressure
Footballguy
Those with higher socioeconomic status, particularly at the highest end, have far more opportunity. Can people still work hard and make good decisions? Sure. But to claim the opportunity is equal is borderline absurd.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
I don't know about late '80's for you 53-year-olds for obvious reasons, but early '80's getting that union factory job was still very much seen as a ticket for success. Then the "union busting", "right to work", etc. for the jobs that remained combined with moving factory work "overseas" meant the promise of a comfortable middle existence turned into the resentment of 2020s politics. That along with the technological revolution wiping out some of the better paying "skilled craftsmen" jobs of the recent past causes every parent to think the skilled jobs of today are next up pushing most everyone towards college and those resulting issues.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
factory union job was never a ticket for me or anyone I knew - there were no union factory jobs within 125 miles of me or more
Sand
Footballguy
No doubt. WWII had a dramatic effect on our social structure and economy and was a unique time.Leaving other countries out of it, it was MUCH better to be born in the USA in 1950 than it was to be born in 2000, in terms of social mobility.Not to get caught up in the nuances of the definition of social mobility and
In THIS country, the primary opportunity for "social mobility" is
Most of today’s millionaires weren’t born into their wealth, research shows. A 2019 study published by Wealth-X found that around 68% of those with a net worth of $30 million or more made it themselves. Further, a second study by Fidelity Investments found that 88% of all millionaires are self-made, meaning they did not inherit their wealth.
There is tremendous social mobility in this country by the numbers. It isn't perfect and some of the blockage points are very frustrating, but on the whole there is no better place to be blessed to be born than this country.
Reference:
How Do Millionaires Get Their Money?
Millionaires don’t always receive their wealth from family. Some are self-made and earn their fortune through hard work and ingenuity.
Last edited:
The Commish
Footballguy
Tons of opportunity in this country. No one should question that. Not everyone can tap into it easily and, unfortunately there is a direct correlation between amount of money and ease of accessFor me, at least, I would say that social mobility and income level in the US are irretrievably intertwined. I wasn't trying to get into a semantic discourse on definitions. I was simply, in an overarching sense, trying to point out there is a tremendous amount of opportunity here - those numbers are pretty compelling.I think it's very important to understand the definition. As defined by SC, this isn't "social mobility". Though, I will point out, again, that it's interesting we useNot to get caught up in the nuances of the definition of social mobility and
In THIS country, the primary opportunity for "social mobility" is
Most of today’s millionaires weren’t born into their wealth, research shows. A 2019 study published by Wealth-X found that around 68% of those with a net worth of $30 million or more made it themselves. Further, a second study by Fidelity Investments found that 88% of all millionaires are self-made, meaning they did not inherit their wealth.
There is tremendous social mobility in this country by the numbers. It isn't perfect and some of the blockage points are very frustrating, but on the whole there is no better place to be blessed to be born than this country.
Reference:
How Do Millionaires Get Their Money?
Millionaires don’t always receive their wealth from family. Some are self-made and earn their fortune through hard work and ingenuity.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
how would one tap into it ?
hard work? good choices/decision ? or by being lazy, not working hard, bad choices, bad decisions ??
The Commish
Footballguy
Again...easiest way is
Am I speaking a different language or are you just not taking the time to read and understand what im saying? The avenues you mention are also ways.
Sand
Footballguy
Sure - no doubt that there is a disparity. Same as time immemorial and there is no way to level that playing field completely.Tons of opportunity in this country. No one should question that. Not everyone can tap into it easily and, unfortunately there is a direct correlation between amount of money and ease of accessFor me, at least, I would say that social mobility and income level in the US are irretrievably intertwined. I wasn't trying to get into a semantic discourse on definitions. I was simply, in an overarching sense, trying to point out there is a tremendous amount of opportunity here - those numbers are pretty compelling.I think it's very important to understand the definition. As defined by SC, this isn't "social mobility". Though, I will point out, again, that it's interesting we useNot to get caught up in the nuances of the definition of social mobility and
In THIS country, the primary opportunity for "social mobility" is
Most of today’s millionaires weren’t born into their wealth, research shows. A 2019 study published by Wealth-X found that around 68% of those with a net worth of $30 million or more made it themselves. Further, a second study by Fidelity Investments found that 88% of all millionaires are self-made, meaning they did not inherit their wealth.
There is tremendous social mobility in this country by the numbers. It isn't perfect and some of the blockage points are very frustrating, but on the whole there is no better place to be blessed to be born than this country.
Reference:
How Do Millionaires Get Their Money?
Millionaires don’t always receive their wealth from family. Some are self-made and earn their fortune through hard work and ingenuity.
A huge amount, though, comes in with regards to education and what we've seen over the last many years is massive rent seeking behavior from those running the system for their own benefit. This shows what has happened succinctly. There is no correlation with better outcomes for students with more staff or more principals. There is for more instructors. That we have what you see is an abomination and driven by government hand in hand with the education unions to drive more money into the system. It's worked - lots and lots of largesse in the system now for absolutely no payoff.
The Commish
Footballguy
Not sure what this has to do with what I was talking about. Do I think the way we pay for public education in this country sucks? Absolutely....it grows the divide between the haves and the have nots. It's one of those systemic problems with origins in the race wars prior to the 1960s that persists today even though some (not you) claim that sort of thing doesn't exist anymore....schooling opportunity is anything but "equal" in this country unfortunately.Sure - no doubt that there is a disparity. Same as time immemorial and there is no way to level that playing field completely.Tons of opportunity in this country. No one should question that. Not everyone can tap into it easily and, unfortunately there is a direct correlation between amount of money and ease of accessFor me, at least, I would say that social mobility and income level in the US are irretrievably intertwined. I wasn't trying to get into a semantic discourse on definitions. I was simply, in an overarching sense, trying to point out there is a tremendous amount of opportunity here - those numbers are pretty compelling.I think it's very important to understand the definition. As defined by SC, this isn't "social mobility". Though, I will point out, again, that it's interesting we useNot to get caught up in the nuances of the definition of social mobility and
In THIS country, the primary opportunity for "social mobility" is
Most of today’s millionaires weren’t born into their wealth, research shows. A 2019 study published by Wealth-X found that around 68% of those with a net worth of $30 million or more made it themselves. Further, a second study by Fidelity Investments found that 88% of all millionaires are self-made, meaning they did not inherit their wealth.
There is tremendous social mobility in this country by the numbers. It isn't perfect and some of the blockage points are very frustrating, but on the whole there is no better place to be blessed to be born than this country.
Reference:
How Do Millionaires Get Their Money?
Millionaires don’t always receive their wealth from family. Some are self-made and earn their fortune through hard work and ingenuity.
A huge amount, though, comes in with regards to education and what we've seen over the last many years is massive rent seeking behavior from those running the system for their own benefit. This shows what has happened succinctly. There is no correlation with better outcomes for students with more staff or more principals. There is for more instructors. That we have what you see is an abomination and driven by government hand in hand with the education unions to drive more money into the system. It's worked - lots and lots of largesse in the system now for absolutely no payoff.
Grace Under Pressure
Footballguy
Thanks for sharing this. I think it would be informative to also see this on a state and local level, as school district budgets are controlled at that level. Would be curious to see which states and municipalities are most guilty of this bloat.
I also agree with the idea posted upthread that school district disparity is a big issue as well. Haves and have nots.
Shula-holic
Footballguy
Some of our state's highest spending per student happens in some of our most underperforming schools. There's a myriad of factors that money can't make up for. Some of it is having a two parent home with importance being placed on education, sometimes it's just which kids are born with more ability than others, but here at least putting money into those schools isn't really changing the results.Not sure what this has to do with what I was talking about. Do I think the way we pay for public education in this country sucks? Absolutely....it grows the divide between the haves and the have nots. It's one of those systemic problems with origins in the race wars prior to the 1960s that persists today even though some (not you) claim that sort of thing doesn't exist anymore....schooling opportunity is anything but "equal" in this country unfortunately.Sure - no doubt that there is a disparity. Same as time immemorial and there is no way to level that playing field completely.Tons of opportunity in this country. No one should question that. Not everyone can tap into it easily and, unfortunately there is a direct correlation between amount of money and ease of accessFor me, at least, I would say that social mobility and income level in the US are irretrievably intertwined. I wasn't trying to get into a semantic discourse on definitions. I was simply, in an overarching sense, trying to point out there is a tremendous amount of opportunity here - those numbers are pretty compelling.I think it's very important to understand the definition. As defined by SC, this isn't "social mobility". Though, I will point out, again, that it's interesting we useNot to get caught up in the nuances of the definition of social mobility and
In THIS country, the primary opportunity for "social mobility" is
Most of today’s millionaires weren’t born into their wealth, research shows. A 2019 study published by Wealth-X found that around 68% of those with a net worth of $30 million or more made it themselves. Further, a second study by Fidelity Investments found that 88% of all millionaires are self-made, meaning they did not inherit their wealth.
There is tremendous social mobility in this country by the numbers. It isn't perfect and some of the blockage points are very frustrating, but on the whole there is no better place to be blessed to be born than this country.
Reference:
How Do Millionaires Get Their Money?
Millionaires don’t always receive their wealth from family. Some are self-made and earn their fortune through hard work and ingenuity.
A huge amount, though, comes in with regards to education and what we've seen over the last many years is massive rent seeking behavior from those running the system for their own benefit. This shows what has happened succinctly. There is no correlation with better outcomes for students with more staff or more principals. There is for more instructors. That we have what you see is an abomination and driven by government hand in hand with the education unions to drive more money into the system. It's worked - lots and lots of largesse in the system now for absolutely no payoff.
The Commish
Footballguy
Understood.....still don't understand what any of this has to do with the conversation that was being had. This seems like a completely different conversation on the education system....most of which, I agree with you two on. Our education system needs a major overhaul. If one is in a public school, the education quality should be pretty close to identical regardless of living in a mansion or affordable housing. It's one of the most obvious (and pathetic) problems we have as a nation and the kids are getting punished as a result. States need to step up IMO.Some of our state's highest spending per student happens in some of our most underperforming schools. There's a myriad of factors that money can't make up for. Some of it is having a two parent home with importance being placed on education, sometimes it's just which kids are born with more ability than others, but here at least putting money into those schools isn't really changing the results.Not sure what this has to do with what I was talking about. Do I think the way we pay for public education in this country sucks? Absolutely....it grows the divide between the haves and the have nots. It's one of those systemic problems with origins in the race wars prior to the 1960s that persists today even though some (not you) claim that sort of thing doesn't exist anymore....schooling opportunity is anything but "equal" in this country unfortunately.Sure - no doubt that there is a disparity. Same as time immemorial and there is no way to level that playing field completely.Tons of opportunity in this country. No one should question that. Not everyone can tap into it easily and, unfortunately there is a direct correlation between amount of money and ease of accessFor me, at least, I would say that social mobility and income level in the US are irretrievably intertwined. I wasn't trying to get into a semantic discourse on definitions. I was simply, in an overarching sense, trying to point out there is a tremendous amount of opportunity here - those numbers are pretty compelling.I think it's very important to understand the definition. As defined by SC, this isn't "social mobility". Though, I will point out, again, that it's interesting we useNot to get caught up in the nuances of the definition of social mobility and
In THIS country, the primary opportunity for "social mobility" is
Most of today’s millionaires weren’t born into their wealth, research shows. A 2019 study published by Wealth-X found that around 68% of those with a net worth of $30 million or more made it themselves. Further, a second study by Fidelity Investments found that 88% of all millionaires are self-made, meaning they did not inherit their wealth.
There is tremendous social mobility in this country by the numbers. It isn't perfect and some of the blockage points are very frustrating, but on the whole there is no better place to be blessed to be born than this country.
Reference:
How Do Millionaires Get Their Money?
Millionaires don’t always receive their wealth from family. Some are self-made and earn their fortune through hard work and ingenuity.
A huge amount, though, comes in with regards to education and what we've seen over the last many years is massive rent seeking behavior from those running the system for their own benefit. This shows what has happened succinctly. There is no correlation with better outcomes for students with more staff or more principals. There is for more instructors. That we have what you see is an abomination and driven by government hand in hand with the education unions to drive more money into the system. It's worked - lots and lots of largesse in the system now for absolutely no payoff.
Sand
Footballguy
Yeah, sorry. I jumped onto an adjacent track.Understood.....still don't understand what any of this has to do with the conversation that was being had. This seems like a completely different conversation on the education system....most of which, I agree with you two on. Our education system needs a major overhaul. If one is in a public school, the education quality should be pretty close to identical regardless of living in a mansion or affordable housing. It's one of the most obvious (and pathetic) problems we have as a nation and the kids are getting punished as a result. States need to step up IMO.Some of our state's highest spending per student happens in some of our most underperforming schools. There's a myriad of factors that money can't make up for. Some of it is having a two parent home with importance being placed on education, sometimes it's just which kids are born with more ability than others, but here at least putting money into those schools isn't really changing the results.Not sure what this has to do with what I was talking about. Do I think the way we pay for public education in this country sucks? Absolutely....it grows the divide between the haves and the have nots. It's one of those systemic problems with origins in the race wars prior to the 1960s that persists today even though some (not you) claim that sort of thing doesn't exist anymore....schooling opportunity is anything but "equal" in this country unfortunately.Sure - no doubt that there is a disparity. Same as time immemorial and there is no way to level that playing field completely.Tons of opportunity in this country. No one should question that. Not everyone can tap into it easily and, unfortunately there is a direct correlation between amount of money and ease of accessFor me, at least, I would say that social mobility and income level in the US are irretrievably intertwined. I wasn't trying to get into a semantic discourse on definitions. I was simply, in an overarching sense, trying to point out there is a tremendous amount of opportunity here - those numbers are pretty compelling.I think it's very important to understand the definition. As defined by SC, this isn't "social mobility". Though, I will point out, again, that it's interesting we useNot to get caught up in the nuances of the definition of social mobility and
In THIS country, the primary opportunity for "social mobility" is
Most of today’s millionaires weren’t born into their wealth, research shows. A 2019 study published by Wealth-X found that around 68% of those with a net worth of $30 million or more made it themselves. Further, a second study by Fidelity Investments found that 88% of all millionaires are self-made, meaning they did not inherit their wealth.
There is tremendous social mobility in this country by the numbers. It isn't perfect and some of the blockage points are very frustrating, but on the whole there is no better place to be blessed to be born than this country.
Reference:
How Do Millionaires Get Their Money?
Millionaires don’t always receive their wealth from family. Some are self-made and earn their fortune through hard work and ingenuity.
A huge amount, though, comes in with regards to education and what we've seen over the last many years is massive rent seeking behavior from those running the system for their own benefit. This shows what has happened succinctly. There is no correlation with better outcomes for students with more staff or more principals. There is for more instructors. That we have what you see is an abomination and driven by government hand in hand with the education unions to drive more money into the system. It's worked - lots and lots of largesse in the system now for absolutely no payoff.
Shula-holic
Footballguy
I have no idea how this all started, but in education there will never be anything even remotely resembling an even playing field because people aren't equal in ability nor in their support at home. In addition to parenting, ability and other factors related to students, there are systems here teachers just don't want to work in. Sometimes fresh out of school teachers will start in one of these districts to just get a year or two under their belt until they can move to one of the suburban systems. That leaves the less desirable district with a lot of new teachers and those who can't leave or find a job in a "better" district for whatever reason. There's nothing really the state can do about it, especially if they are paying more per student in funding to those systems.Understood.....still don't understand what any of this has to do with the conversation that was being had. This seems like a completely different conversation on the education system....most of which, I agree with you two on. Our education system needs a major overhaul. If one is in a public school, the education quality should be pretty close to identical regardless of living in a mansion or affordable housing. It's one of the most obvious (and pathetic) problems we have as a nation and the kids are getting punished as a result. States need to step up IMO.Some of our state's highest spending per student happens in some of our most underperforming schools. There's a myriad of factors that money can't make up for. Some of it is having a two parent home with importance being placed on education, sometimes it's just which kids are born with more ability than others, but here at least putting money into those schools isn't really changing the results.Not sure what this has to do with what I was talking about. Do I think the way we pay for public education in this country sucks? Absolutely....it grows the divide between the haves and the have nots. It's one of those systemic problems with origins in the race wars prior to the 1960s that persists today even though some (not you) claim that sort of thing doesn't exist anymore....schooling opportunity is anything but "equal" in this country unfortunately.Sure - no doubt that there is a disparity. Same as time immemorial and there is no way to level that playing field completely.Tons of opportunity in this country. No one should question that. Not everyone can tap into it easily and, unfortunately there is a direct correlation between amount of money and ease of accessFor me, at least, I would say that social mobility and income level in the US are irretrievably intertwined. I wasn't trying to get into a semantic discourse on definitions. I was simply, in an overarching sense, trying to point out there is a tremendous amount of opportunity here - those numbers are pretty compelling.I think it's very important to understand the definition. As defined by SC, this isn't "social mobility". Though, I will point out, again, that it's interesting we useNot to get caught up in the nuances of the definition of social mobility and
In THIS country, the primary opportunity for "social mobility" is
Most of today’s millionaires weren’t born into their wealth, research shows. A 2019 study published by Wealth-X found that around 68% of those with a net worth of $30 million or more made it themselves. Further, a second study by Fidelity Investments found that 88% of all millionaires are self-made, meaning they did not inherit their wealth.
There is tremendous social mobility in this country by the numbers. It isn't perfect and some of the blockage points are very frustrating, but on the whole there is no better place to be blessed to be born than this country.
Reference:
How Do Millionaires Get Their Money?
Millionaires don’t always receive their wealth from family. Some are self-made and earn their fortune through hard work and ingenuity.
A huge amount, though, comes in with regards to education and what we've seen over the last many years is massive rent seeking behavior from those running the system for their own benefit. This shows what has happened succinctly. There is no correlation with better outcomes for students with more staff or more principals. There is for more instructors. That we have what you see is an abomination and driven by government hand in hand with the education unions to drive more money into the system. It's worked - lots and lots of largesse in the system now for absolutely no payoff.
I don't know how you fix that, I don't have the answer. I suspect there is no answer because the state can never mandate being a good parent, or level out ability when it's strictly related to ability. Even in the poorer socio-economic schools, the biggest commonality my wife found in her students when she worked there was the involvement of the parents in the kids. The issue is where she is now, having disinterested parents is such an exception that it's noted by teachers when there is a situation like that. Where she was early in her career, the exception was the kids who had parents who were taking that active interest.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
Again...easiest way is
Am I speaking a different language or are you just not taking the time to read and understand what im saying? The avenues you mention are also ways.
maybe its you who don't understand, ever thought of that ?
I know many people who sat on their butt's and did nothing and money didn't come their way ... can you explain why that is ??
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
Because they started out too poor to have their money work for them?
The Commish
Footballguy
Parents are certainly a huge part of it. Uniformity of the education is another part and so is the concept of "teachers like me". Tons of studies out there point to the major benefits of having a staff of teachers that mirrors the demographics of the school they are teaching in. It's shocking really. This all is for a different thread though.I have no idea how this all started, but in education there will never be anything even remotely resembling an even playing field because people aren't equal in ability nor in their support at home. In addition to parenting, ability and other factors related to students, there are systems here teachers just don't want to work in. Sometimes fresh out of school teachers will start in one of these districts to just get a year or two under their belt until they can move to one of the suburban systems. That leaves the less desirable district with a lot of new teachers and those who can't leave or find a job in a "better" district for whatever reason. There's nothing really the state can do about it, especially if they are paying more per student in funding to those systems.Understood.....still don't understand what any of this has to do with the conversation that was being had. This seems like a completely different conversation on the education system....most of which, I agree with you two on. Our education system needs a major overhaul. If one is in a public school, the education quality should be pretty close to identical regardless of living in a mansion or affordable housing. It's one of the most obvious (and pathetic) problems we have as a nation and the kids are getting punished as a result. States need to step up IMO.Some of our state's highest spending per student happens in some of our most underperforming schools. There's a myriad of factors that money can't make up for. Some of it is having a two parent home with importance being placed on education, sometimes it's just which kids are born with more ability than others, but here at least putting money into those schools isn't really changing the results.Not sure what this has to do with what I was talking about. Do I think the way we pay for public education in this country sucks? Absolutely....it grows the divide between the haves and the have nots. It's one of those systemic problems with origins in the race wars prior to the 1960s that persists today even though some (not you) claim that sort of thing doesn't exist anymore....schooling opportunity is anything but "equal" in this country unfortunately.Sure - no doubt that there is a disparity. Same as time immemorial and there is no way to level that playing field completely.Tons of opportunity in this country. No one should question that. Not everyone can tap into it easily and, unfortunately there is a direct correlation between amount of money and ease of accessFor me, at least, I would say that social mobility and income level in the US are irretrievably intertwined. I wasn't trying to get into a semantic discourse on definitions. I was simply, in an overarching sense, trying to point out there is a tremendous amount of opportunity here - those numbers are pretty compelling.I think it's very important to understand the definition. As defined by SC, this isn't "social mobility". Though, I will point out, again, that it's interesting we useNot to get caught up in the nuances of the definition of social mobility and
In THIS country, the primary opportunity for "social mobility" is
Most of today’s millionaires weren’t born into their wealth, research shows. A 2019 study published by Wealth-X found that around 68% of those with a net worth of $30 million or more made it themselves. Further, a second study by Fidelity Investments found that 88% of all millionaires are self-made, meaning they did not inherit their wealth.
There is tremendous social mobility in this country by the numbers. It isn't perfect and some of the blockage points are very frustrating, but on the whole there is no better place to be blessed to be born than this country.
Reference:
How Do Millionaires Get Their Money?
Millionaires don’t always receive their wealth from family. Some are self-made and earn their fortune through hard work and ingenuity.
A huge amount, though, comes in with regards to education and what we've seen over the last many years is massive rent seeking behavior from those running the system for their own benefit. This shows what has happened succinctly. There is no correlation with better outcomes for students with more staff or more principals. There is for more instructors. That we have what you see is an abomination and driven by government hand in hand with the education unions to drive more money into the system. It's worked - lots and lots of largesse in the system now for absolutely no payoff.
I don't know how you fix that, I don't have the answer. I suspect there is no answer because the state can never mandate being a good parent, or level out ability when it's strictly related to ability. Even in the poorer socio-economic schools, the biggest commonality my wife found in her students when she worked there was the involvement of the parents in the kids. The issue is where she is now, having disinterested parents is such an exception that it's noted by teachers when there is a situation like that. Where she was early in her career, the exception was the kids who had parents who were taking that active interest.
The Commish
Footballguy
No....I understand exactly what I am saying. I've already said several times I really have no idea what you're saying as you hop from topic to topic just like your second sentence here. If people have nothing and sit on their butts and do nothing, I'd expect them to have nothing, but that's likely the most "water is wet" comment I can think of and has nothing to do, at all, with anything else that's been said until now. You appear to be hopping all over the place trying to take the conversation in a ton of different directions. I just wonder why and what your end goal is. None of it makes any sense.Again...easiest way is
Am I speaking a different language or are you just not taking the time to read and understand what im saying? The avenues you mention are also ways.
maybe its you who don't understand, ever thought of that ?
I know many people who sat on their butt's and did nothing and money didn't come their way ... can you explain why that is ??
Stealthycat
Footballguy
we give everyone a chance to make the best they can though ... in every school, there are 4.0 students, students who excel, study hard, trying to be the best they can be and in every school there are 2.0 students who simply don't
giving the opportunity doesn't mean people will take it
Stealthycat
Footballguy
I know you have no idea - you say that a lot and your mind thinks vastly different than mine - that is something that makes it very hard for me to follow your line of thinking I think. I'm a simple man, maybe that's it?
We agree on the bolded - why can't we agree then that NOT sitting on butt equals having something ?
Stealthycat
Footballguy
there are people who started out poorer than me .... but probably nobody on this forum and that's the truth
I do understand what you're saying because I lived it. With nothing to work with, its harder, absolutely. But the opportunity IS there, and this country its attainable and real for people who really want it.
Born poor doesn't mean you gotta stay poor.
Here's a story for you. My mom was 1 of 8 ... her parents (my grandparents) never had nothing. Literally a 1 room house they all were born and raised in ( I own that house and the original 40 acres of homestead now and this winter I'm burning it to the ground ) ....2 died young, leaving 3 brothers and 3 sisters. They had nothing growing up - mom tells stories of catching crawdads and eating their tails, they found a dead owl once, and ate it. They'd wake on a winter morning with dusting of snow on their blankets. They had little - very little.
1 brother spent his life in and out of jail. Raped his daughter, got her pregnant, arson, spent years in jail. Worthless, has nothing, his kids have nothing to do with him
1 brother did well in backhoe/dozer business, 6 kids. He died in 1992, I don't remember him well - had hundreds of acres of lands and many assets when he died.
1 brother did well in backhoe/dozer business. Never had kids. He did a few months ago, covid .... had over 2 million in assets, left 100% to childrens hospital.
1 sister married a drunk, worked factory job, never had much more than that
1 sister married and was just a beach of a woman, died years ago from smoking/health issues of her own cause and never had much more than that.
1 sister was my mom - married, 2 kids, factory working, never had much
6 siblings - 2 exceled financially and 4 did not. 2 didn't stay poor, 4 did
Born poor doesn't mean you gotta stay poor
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