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Outgoing republicans brazenly stealing power from incoming Democrats. Enemies of Democracy. (1 Viewer)

Jackstraw

Footballguy
https://amp.jsonline.com/amp/2198624002?__twitter_impression=true

Look at the list of items at the end the Wisconsin Legislature and Governor is trying to put in place in lame duck session. Effectively clipping the wings of the incoming Dem Governor and legislature. Unconscionable. Spitting in the eye of the voters. Happening in NC, MO, and several other states. 

Between this, gerrymandering, dark money etc. The modern Republican Party is anti-democracy. It just is. How do you “reach across the aisle” to people who do this? 

 

IvanKaramazov

Footballguy
This was posted in another thread but seems to fit this one best:  Esquire article


The Republican Party as it is presently constituted exists solely to launder corporate money, and its primary national imperatives are bigotry, plutocracy, and ratfcking. 
I oppose bigotry and plutocracy, but I sympathize with their view on rat-#######.  So I'm kind of conflicted here.

 

Jackstraw

Footballguy
Wisconsin dems received 190,000 more votes overall and received 36 out of 99 house seats for their trouble. Makes you feel warm and patriotic doesn’t it? This cannot be constitutional. These are the same scumbags that pretends to be offended by a black man kneeling during the National Anthem. 

 

TobiasFunke

Footballguy
This was posted in another thread but seems to fit this one best:  Esquire article
A similar article, not as clever as Pierce but just as damning and far more frightening:

The GOP’s 2018 Autopsy: Democracy Is Our Enemy

It concludes with this accurate sentiment:

"All of which is to say: The GOP does not have a plan for remaining electorally competitive in a democratic United States. But it doesn’t necessarily need one."

 

roadkill1292

Footballguy
David Frum in The Atlantic:

If conservatives become convinced that they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will reject democracy.
Current electoral rules suck. Republicans will never abandon them and they will never support improved systems that enhance democracy.

FTR, however, the Democratic Party is little better on these issues. They will attempt to put a good face on things but it will be a fine line of actions where they support things that actually help voters to have more and better choices without giving rise to third parties, whom Dems view as threats.

 

TobiasFunke

Footballguy
David Frum in The Atlantic:

Current electoral rules suck. Republicans will never abandon them and they will never support improved systems that enhance democracy.

FTR, however, the Democratic Party is little better on these issues. They will attempt to put a good face on things but it will be a fine line of actions where they support things that actually help voters to have more and better choices without giving rise to third parties, whom Dems view as threats.
This is 100% wrong, and IMO this mindset is part of the problem, both with respect to this issue and more broadly. Pretty much the only arguably "undemocratic" tactic that both parties employ is gerrymandering. Maybe you can stretch to an argument for suppression of third parties in terms of election rules and whatnot, although ultimately they're doomed to fail without proportional representation so it hardly matters.  To my knowledge Dems don't legislate in lame duck sessions to reduce the power from democratically elected Governors-elect. They don't suppress voters and discourage turnout- in fact they do the opposite. They don't manipulate the judiciary in any ways that remotely resemble the Merrick Garland fiasco or what happened in West Virginia or even what's happening in Wisconsin now.

This is the voting equivalent of people who look at the brazenly corrupt plutocracy currently running the country and declare that the Dems are just as bad because some of their candidates take money from Fortune 500 companies.  Come on, people. Time to stop letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.

 

Workhorse

Footballguy
Meanwhile, the Republican party essentially stole the NC 9th through outright election fraud.  These people don't give a crap about (big D) Democratic institutions or rule of law. It's about raw, naked power grabbing in the face of an electorate that is turning away from their policies. This is a slow march to authoritarianism.

 

TobiasFunke

Footballguy
Meanwhile, the Republican party essentially stole the NC 9th through outright election fraud.  These people don't give a crap about (big D) Democratic institutions or rule of law. It's about raw, naked power grabbing in the face of an electorate that is turning away from their policies. This is a slow march to authoritarianism.
Also this.

Says a lot that we're all listing the ways in which the GOP has subverted democracy and it took this long for someone to even mention that we're right in the middle of the most brazen case of election fraud in a federal race in a long time.

 

roadkill1292

Footballguy
This is 100% wrong, and IMO this mindset is part of the problem, both with respect to this issue and more broadly. Pretty much the only arguably "undemocratic" tactic that both parties employ is gerrymandering. Maybe you can stretch to an argument for suppression of third parties in terms of election rules and whatnot, although ultimately they're doomed to fail without proportional representation so it hardly matters.  To my knowledge Dems don't legislate in lame duck sessions to reduce the power from democratically elected Governors-elect. They don't suppress voters and discourage turnout- in fact they do the opposite. They don't manipulate the judiciary in any ways that remotely resemble the Merrick Garland fiasco or what happened in West Virginia or even what's happening in Wisconsin now.

This is the voting equivalent of people who look at the brazenly corrupt plutocracy currently running the country and declare that the Dems are just as bad because some of their candidates take money from Fortune 500 companies.  Come on, people. Time to stop letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Calm down, brother. In no way did I mean to equate Dems with Repubbies, who are unquestionably far worse in their valuation of democracy.  I've tried on two message boards and have yet to get a response to my question about if Repubs ever thought that they could win more net votes by championing the expansion of voting rights than they could by suppressing votes in areas where they have troubles. It's possible that they think my questions about simply doing the right thing are naive. I always believe that Dems will eventually do the right thing, even when they have a choice otherwise.

 

TobiasFunke

Footballguy
Calm down, brother. In no way did I mean to equate Dems with Repubbies, who are unquestionably far worse in their valuation of democracy.  I've tried on two message boards and have yet to get a response to my question about if Repubs ever thought that they could win more net votes by championing the expansion of voting rights than they could by suppressing votes in areas where they have troubles. It's possible that they think my questions about simply doing the right thing are naive. I always believe that Dems will eventually do the right thing, even when they have a choice otherwise.
In my defense you did say that "the Democratic Part is little better" than the GOP on these issues :shrug:

 

Mario Kart

Footballguy
The Great State of Wisconsin. Praise Be! 

All of you Ofputin’s need to fall in line. 

 
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parasaurolophus

Footballguy
Hopefully some republicans will realize this is a bad way to do business just like some democrats realized this in 2010 and did the right thing. 

I am not really optimistic. 

 

TobiasFunke

Footballguy
Yes I did. I probably shouldn't have used that exact wording. 
I'm a little sensitive about it. Stuff like this is why. Our instincts are to turn everything into a systemic problem instead of a partisan problem, and it's totally counterproductive.  People think they're calling out everyone and being "non-partisan" but what they're actually doing is providing cover for the worst actors by just throwing them on the pile instead of calling them out with specificity.

 

Jackstraw

Footballguy
Meanwhile, the Republican party essentially stole the NC 9th through outright election fraud.  These people don't give a crap about (big D) Democratic institutions or rule of law. It's about raw, naked power grabbing in the face of an electorate that is turning away from their policies. This is a slow march to authoritarianism.
That's what bugs me about the people that are SO into guns in order to "fight the gub't" or whatever. They are the same people that are tearing down democratic policies as fast as they can. One might think they want those guns to BE the Gub't more than fight it. 

 If they gave one #### about democracy they'd have been howling for years now. 

 

Ilov80s

Footballguy
It is really bad in Michigan. They are straight up changing proposals that were passed by voters in November. Now lameduck GOP is pushing a bill to create a Republican appointed board that would supercede the elected State School Board. The new GOP appointed board would have the power to dictate education policy for the State and not the School Board or Governor. I can't say I have ever seen anything like this in my life. 

 

Ilov80s

Footballguy
Here is a brief summary of what the lameduck State Congress is trying to do:

- Gut minimum wage and paid sick bills. These changes had over 300k signatures in the summer and were set to be on the ballot for voters to decide. GOP then adopted it and passed it prevent it from reaching the voters. Now, just a month after GOP took hard losses in the election, they are ammending the bills to push minimum wage increase back 8 years and slash up paid sick time.

- They are also looking to alter the marijuana proposal that was just passed to eliminate the right to grow it at home.

- They are passing bills to protect dark campaign money and take away the AG/SoS power to investigate election fraud. All of this after the new AG and SoS made campaign finance inspection and election fairness a major part of their platform. Michigan voters also passed 

- Michigan passed a proposal to make voting easier. GOP is trying to roll back parts of the proposal by eliminating same day registration and getting rid of the component that would allow people to automatically register to vote when getting/renewing their drivers license. 

These officials have no concern for what the people of Michigan want. 

 

parasaurolophus

Footballguy
Here is a brief summary of what the lameduck State Congress is trying to do:

- Gut minimum wage and paid sick bills. These changes had over 300k signatures in the summer and were set to be on the ballot for voters to decide. GOP then adopted it and passed it prevent it from reaching the voters. Now, just a month after GOP took hard losses in the election, they are ammending the bills to push minimum wage increase back 8 years and slash up paid sick time.

- They are also looking to alter the marijuana proposal that was just passed to eliminate the right to grow it at home.

- They are passing bills to protect dark campaign money and take away the AG/SoS power to investigate election fraud. All of this after the new AG and SoS made campaign finance inspection and election fairness a major part of their platform. Michigan voters also passed 

- Michigan passed a proposal to make voting easier. GOP is trying to roll back parts of the proposal by eliminating same day registration and getting rid of the component that would allow people to automatically register to vote when getting/renewing their drivers license. 

These officials have no concern for what the people of Michigan want. 
Yikes. Hopefully some do the right thing and vote no.

 
Republicans tarnishing their brand even more. Even worse is their short sightedness in attempting this in these potential swing states. Well, maybe not so swingy after these stunts.

 

Mario Kart

Footballguy
How loud are the Republicans going to be if/when the Democrats do the same things Republicans are doing now? Republicans continue to call Dems dirty but it’s the Repubs that continue to circumvent dukes, regulations, morality, and decency. It’s amazing the mental gymnastics many go through. 

 

Ilov80s

Footballguy
How loud are the Republicans going to be if/when the Democrats do the same things Republicans are doing now? Republicans continue to call Dems dirty but it’s the Repubs that continue to circumvent dukes, regulations, morality, and decency. It’s amazing the mental gymnastics many go through. 
I really hope Democrats don't. I get the temptation to say turnabout is fair play but no matter whether it has been done in the past or not, this kind of thing can not be accepted.

 

Ilov80s

Footballguy
Yikes. Hopefully some do the right thing and vote no.
I hope so but many of the people proposing and pushing these bills lost their seats due to the election or term limits and so I suppose have nothing to lose. The idea of creating a new Republican appointed School Board that will serve over the popularlly elected School Board is just insane and the defintion of undermining the will of the people. 

This 20 year generation of GOP Michigan (who is facing a serious Federal law suit which ammounts to a criminial conspiracy to gerrymander the State to ensure their power) has even been as petty as to do this: 

Michigan's Republican senators receive nearly twice as much money as Democrats to operate their offices, and Republicans get funding for up to five aides while Dems only get enough for three. 
https://www.metrotimes.com/news-hits/archives/2018/11/14/michigan-gop-senators-get-far-more-money-and-two-more-aides-than-democrats

 
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whoknew

Footballguy
In MI and WI (and other states) do the Dems not have enough votes to undo these laws come January? Does the GOP still hold one of the houses in each of these states?

 

whoknew

Footballguy
I guess this helps answer my previous question - this is a tweet from Nate Silver in response to another tweet that the GOP in WI won 46% of the vote but will have 63% of the seats - 

@natesilver538 - I'm a LOT more bothered by the extreme partisan gerrymandering in Wisconsin than by the lame-duck legislating. Without the gerrymandering, in fact, the lame-duck stuff probably couldn't or wouldn't have happened (or would quickly be reversed when the new assembly came in).

 
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Fantasy_Freak

Footballguy
I guess this helps answer my previous question - this is a tweet from Nate Silver in response to another tweet that the GOP in WI won 46% of the vote but will have 63% of the seats - 

@natesilver538 - I'm a LOT more bothered by the extreme partisan gerrymandering in Wisconsin than by the lame-duck legislating. Without the gerrymandering, in fact, the lame-duck stuff probably couldn't or wouldn't have happened (or would quickly be reversed when the new assembly came in).
A few years ago the gerrymandering was pushed through around the same time ACT10 was enacted to undercut any "power" the democrats had to wage against Republicans.  Robin Vos who is Speaker and a pretty powerful guy within WI politics has benefited greatly from gerrymandering.  Hell, the guy went on a trip to Europe with lobbyists where they paid the bill and not a concern in the world with losing his seat.  They have essentially set-up power until they piss off enough people or people get frustrated with their actions.

 

Ilov80s

Footballguy
In MI and WI (and other states) do the Dems not have enough votes to undo these laws come January? Does the GOP still hold one of the houses in each of these states?
GOP lost seats but still will hold majority. Michigan is gerrymandered beyond belief. For example, in 2014 GOP got 50% of State House votes and won 71% of the seats, GOP got 48% of the House votes and 57% of the House seats. They are a part of a large federal lawsuit starting in February related to their gerrymandering conspiracy. There are emails plain as day saying the district lines need to adjusted to protect Republican seats. IMO this story should be as big as any Trump related story. 

 
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whoknew

Footballguy
GOP lost seats but still will hold majority. Michigan is gerrymandered beyond belief. For example, in 2014 GOP got 50% of State House votes and won 71% of the seats, GOP got 48% of the House votes and 57% of the House seats. They are a part of a large federal lawsuit starting in February related to their gerrymandering conspiracy. There are emails plain as day saying the district lines need to adjusted to protect Republican seats. IMO this story should be as big as any Trump related story. 
Is the GOP trying to change the anti-gerrymandering law that the people passed in the last election?

 

Snorkelson

Footballguy
In MI and WI (and other states) do the Dems not have enough votes to undo these laws come January? Does the GOP still hold one of the houses in each of these states?
Michigan republicans will hold both houses, they are trying to limit power of New Democrat governor and AG.

 

Snorkelson

Footballguy
They say they are for all these morals and values but that’s just a ploy to secure votes, and when they get in they serve money. 

 

Ilov80s

Footballguy
Is the GOP trying to change the anti-gerrymandering law that the people passed in the last election?
Yes they are tinkering with it a but that one actually doesn't look malicious and seems more in line with the intent of proposal- to ensure it really is independent. It is hard to trust them though so given their track record, I would prefer they leave it alone. 

If some of these things pass, there are going to several lawsuits against them over the legality of all this. Can legislature make a body that overrules the Constitutionally mandated and voter elected State School Board? Can they pass and ammend a bill in the same session? All that with the big federal lawsuit.

 

TobiasFunke

Footballguy
Any Republicans care to defend this, or share whether they plan to vote for the GOPin the future after this shameless power grab?  Is this a Krusty the Clown type scenario?  “Well they totally undermined democracy, but man I’m aching for that upper class tax cut!”

 

roadkill1292

Footballguy
We can't get most Repubbies in here to even discuss gerrymandering solutions. Kudos to Sand, with whom I never see eye to eye on much of anything, for being one of the few to participate openly and honestly in the gerrymandering thread. Caveat, I'm not really sure that Sand is a Republican.

 

Ilov80s

Footballguy
They say they are for all these morals and values but that’s just a ploy to secure votes, and when they get in they serve money. 
Here you go

The Michigan Redistricting Resource Institute, which has no staff, a no-frills website and a post-office box for an address.

The group describes itself as nonpartisan and “committed to raising public awareness” about redistricting. In fact, it was helmed by executives from the Michigan Chamber of Commerce and paid $1 million to private GOP consultants to draw political districts in 2011 that favored Republicans during the once-a-decade process, court documents and interviews show with a new level of detail.

The nonprofit paid for more than 2,500 hours over the course of one year for legal, mapmaking and other consulting work on behalf of Michigan’s “House and Republican caucuses,” according to the nonprofit’s own admissions and invoices, uncovered in a pending federal lawsuit challenging the legislative boundaries.  
https://www.bridgemi.com/public-sector/how-shadow-republican-group-gerrymandered-michigan-sparking-backlash

 

Fantasy_Freak

Footballguy
Its hard to believe anyone still votes for the GOP.
My father-in-law is a devout republican and will never vote for a democrat, hell he was good with the ACT10 legislation that negatively impacted my wife and I from a financial as well as work respect.  Apparently, my wife does not deserve the money she was being paid and the pension benefits she agreed to when she started her job 20 years ago.  It gets disheartening sometimes hearing the same words that come off of local conservative radio coming from him.  I love the guy to death but man is it hard to go to family functions and hear the political comments.  The public sector employees are the evil doers so money is pulled form them and moved to the other hand to give to the Foxconn.  There are a lot of people like this where the most important aspect of a person running for office is what letter is behind their name (R or D). 

 

the moops

Footballguy
The public sector employees are the evil doers so money is pulled form them and moved to the other hand to give to the Foxconn.  There are a lot of people like this where the most important aspect of a person running for office is what letter is behind their name (R or D). 
And that person running for office will become a public sector employee who benefits from the very same system that he/she is railing against in order to get elected

 
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TobiasFunke

Footballguy
Until anyone holds them accountable...they will continue to vote to put themselves in power and increase their own wealth.
Yup. Republican voters bear a good bit of responsibility for this too by making it so clear in recent years just how much awfulness they’ll tolerate in support of “winning.” 

 

OrtonToOlsen

Footballguy
It's all a boogeyman talking points, War on Christmas, Evil Teacher Unions, Criminal Immigrants, etc.....
Oh lord.

My own brother beats this drum like Gene Krupa on meth.   He gets it from the talk radio honks.

He honestly believes that I only vote the way the CTA tells me.

 

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