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Why wouldn't they want a guy that's figured out how to catch 54 and 76 passes in his first two seasons?
Very limited skills, no speed to break a big one. He's a product of a WR stable that featured two rookies last year, Camarillo coming off an ACL tear, and Ginn who is a total bust at WR it seems. Miami lost games last year and many times had to abandon the run...Bess this year in Miami if he stays won't catch 50 balls, not even close.Why wouldn't they want a guy that's figured out how to catch 54 and 76 passes in his first two seasons?
I think Miami would PAY a 4th or 5th to the Ginn-accepting team. Just sayin.
Bess was money on 3rd downs for the Dolphins last year. He had more big catches than the rest of the team combined, and many of them were not easy.He has a good WR skillset outside of speed. I would not be happy if the Fins gave him up.Very limited skills, no speed to break a big one. He's a product of a WR stable that featured two rookies last year, Camarillo coming off an ACL tear, and Ginn who is a total bust at WR it seems. Miami lost games last year and many times had to abandon the run...Bess this year in Miami if he stays won't catch 50 balls, not even close.
I would rather find a WR2 in the draft then any of those guys.
So you're saying on a team that doesn't have a good #2 that he's a good #2?I don't think Carolina needs a player with speed to break a big one. Pretty sure they've got one of those.Very limited skills, no speed to break a big one. He's a product of a WR stable that featured two rookies last year, Camarillo coming off an ACL tear, and Ginn who is a total bust at WR it seems. Miami lost games last year and many times had to abandon the run...Bess this year in Miami if he stays won't catch 50 balls, not even close.Why wouldn't they want a guy that's figured out how to catch 54 and 76 passes in his first two seasons?
I'm with you. MOP knows his football, and definitely knows his Dolphons - but I am respectfully stongly disagreeing with his assessment of Bess. I think he is an ideal slot guy, and a very reliable posession receiver. Bess is a good football player, and a valuable contributor. He is not fast, but he finds a way to get open, and rarely drops passes.Bess was money on 3rd downs for the Dolphins last year. He had more big catches than the rest of the team combined, and many of them were not easy.He has a good WR skillset outside of speed. I would not be happy if the Fins gave him up.Very limited skills, no speed to break a big one. He's a product of a WR stable that featured two rookies last year, Camarillo coming off an ACL tear, and Ginn who is a total bust at WR it seems. Miami lost games last year and many times had to abandon the run...Bess this year in Miami if he stays won't catch 50 balls, not even close.
Sure but what is the slot role on a power run offense going to net? Miami was not a good passing team last year and some of it had to do with limited WR skills. Lot of young guys, Bess has good hands but he isn't a route running WR. he isn't going to run 15 yd outs is my point so other than a slot guy I don't see where he will succeed. Miami had nothing at WR last year, that's why he hauled in all those balls. Bess is not the only guy I think will have a big drop in catches. I have several from other teams...I can tell this is going to be a long summerI'm with you. MOP knows his football, and definitely knows his Dolphons - but I am respectfully stongly disagreeing with his assessment of Bess. I think he is an ideal slot guy, and a very reliable posession receiver. Bess is a good football player, and a valuable contributor. He is not fast, but he finds a way to get open, and rarely drops passes.Bess was money on 3rd downs for the Dolphins last year. He had more big catches than the rest of the team combined, and many of them were not easy.He has a good WR skillset outside of speed. I would not be happy if the Fins gave him up.Very limited skills, no speed to break a big one. He's a product of a WR stable that featured two rookies last year, Camarillo coming off an ACL tear, and Ginn who is a total bust at WR it seems. Miami lost games last year and many times had to abandon the run...Bess this year in Miami if he stays won't catch 50 balls, not even close.Why wouldn't they want a guy that's figured out how to catch 54 and 76 passes in his first two seasons?
Because he averages 10.1 ypr and has scored only 3 TDs in 130 catches.Why wouldn't they want a guy that's figured out how to catch 54 and 76 passes in his first two seasons?
Again. What would the Panthers need him to do?Because he averages 10.1 ypr and has scored only 3 TDs in 130 catches.
Not sure why MOP doesn't recognize Bess' skill set.He plays a very important role in the seam.He caught 130 balls in 2 seasons with young unproven QBs running the offense.I think you're dead wrong about Bess.Bess was money on 3rd downs for the Dolphins last year. He had more big catches than the rest of the team combined, and many of them were not easy.He has a good WR skillset outside of speed. I would not be happy if the Fins gave him up.Very limited skills, no speed to break a big one. He's a product of a WR stable that featured two rookies last year, Camarillo coming off an ACL tear, and Ginn who is a total bust at WR it seems. Miami lost games last year and many times had to abandon the run...Bess this year in Miami if he stays won't catch 50 balls, not even close.
Muhammad had 53/581/1 last year at 36 years old. Jarrett had 17/196/1. I agree they need a WR2 upgrade... but based on Bess's performance to date, why would anyone expect him to improve upon that?So you're saying on a team that doesn't have a good #2 that he's a good #2?I don't think Carolina needs a player with speed to break a big one. Pretty sure they've got one of those.Very limited skills, no speed to break a big one. He's a product of a WR stable that featured two rookies last year, Camarillo coming off an ACL tear, and Ginn who is a total bust at WR it seems. Miami lost games last year and many times had to abandon the run...Bess this year in Miami if he stays won't catch 50 balls, not even close.
That's the role he was asked to play.You realize Wes Welker has a 10.5ypr and catches TDs at about the same rate (3 in 111 catches in 2008, and 4 in 123 catches in 2009), right?EDIT: Just for kicks, in Welker's last year in Miami he had 67 catches at 10.2ypr with 1 TD.Because he averages 10.1 ypr and has scored only 3 TDs in 130 catches.
The Panthers already have that kind of production from Muhammad and Jarrett. Upgrading WR2 implies getting better production than what Bess provides IMO. I think they could easily draft a player who would be as productive as Bess, or more productive, with any pick they would consider trading for him.Again. What would the Panthers need him to do?Because he averages 10.1 ypr and has scored only 3 TDs in 130 catches.
It sounds to me like you're bringing your Bess discussion from that other thread over to here. This thread isn't about Bess's fantasy prospects, it's about his usefulness as an NFL WR.To many of us here, that appears to be high, as Bess was tremendous at filling the role he was asked to fill last year. The guy prolonged many drives that had no business being prolonged.
Yes, I am aware of Welker's production. I think it's merely a function of getting so many targets in the short/underneath game. I think Welker is pretty substantially overrated, and I think there are a lot of NFL WRs who could thrive in the same role. For example, I think Edelman will thrive in it if Welker is slow to return from injury and the Pats give him the same opportunities.I have made my position clear in my posts in the thread. I am fine agreeing to disagree with those of you who think more of Bess than I do.That's the role he was asked to play.You realize Wes Welker has a 10.5ypr and catches TDs at about the same rate (3 in 111 catches in 2008, and 4 in 123 catches in 2009), right?EDIT: Just for kicks, in Welker's last year in Miami he had 67 catches at 10.2ypr with 1 TD.Because he averages 10.1 ypr and has scored only 3 TDs in 130 catches.Why wouldn't they want a guy that's figured out how to catch 54 and 76 passes in his first two seasons?
The Panther organization know that they need an upgrade at #2, and Steve Smith also spoke about it after last season. I would prefer them draft a #2 versus making a trade for one of the Miami guys you listed.
I see your point with Muhammad (but not Jarrett). And technically you're right that Bess might not be an upgrade (but there's a big difference between 55 and 76 catches) to MM. But at the very least he'd be a replacement. And last I heard, the Panthers are non-committal on MM returning this season.
FreeBaGeL said:
Chad Pennington.Tough to average more than 10 yards a catch when the QB only throws it 7.Just Win Baby said:Muhammad had 53/581/1 last year at 36 years old. Jarrett had 17/196/1. I agree they need a WR2 upgrade... but based on Bess's performance to date, why would anyone expect him to improve upon that?Honda said:So you're saying on a team that doesn't have a good #2 that he's a good #2?I don't think Carolina needs a player with speed to break a big one. Pretty sure they've got one of those.Ministry of Pain said:Very limited skills, no speed to break a big one. He's a product of a WR stable that featured two rookies last year, Camarillo coming off an ACL tear, and Ginn who is a total bust at WR it seems. Miami lost games last year and many times had to abandon the run...Bess this year in Miami if he stays won't catch 50 balls, not even close.Honda said:Ministry of Pain said:Why wouldn't they want a guy that's figured out how to catch 54 and 76 passes in his first two seasons?
Yep, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Like I said, a lot of those key catches Bess made were very, very difficult catches that you would not expect a WR to make consistently.Just Win Baby said:Yes, I am aware of Welker's production. I think it's merely a function of getting so many targets in the short/underneath game. I think Welker is pretty substantially overrated, and I think there are a lot of NFL WRs who could thrive in the same role. For example, I think Edelman will thrive in it if Welker is slow to return from injury and the Pats give him the same opportunities.I have made my position clear in my posts in the thread. I am fine agreeing to disagree with those of you who think more of Bess than I do.FreeBaGeL said:That's the role he was asked to play.You realize Wes Welker has a 10.5ypr and catches TDs at about the same rate (3 in 111 catches in 2008, and 4 in 123 catches in 2009), right?EDIT: Just for kicks, in Welker's last year in Miami he had 67 catches at 10.2ypr with 1 TD.Just Win Baby said:Because he averages 10.1 ypr and has scored only 3 TDs in 130 catches.Honda said:Ministry of Pain said:Why wouldn't they want a guy that's figured out how to catch 54 and 76 passes in his first two seasons?
Bingo, and one of the reasons if he wasn't so poisoned here in Miami that I would like him to stay a dolphin. While Ted Ginn lost us a few games at WR, he won us a game against the Jets as a return guy. Put him in a situation where he doesn't have to be "the man" and give him the return duties as well and I see a guy who will be much more valuable than a 4th or 5th round pick (what Miami is shopping him for at the moment). Teddy is Alvin harper, and Miami fans wanted him to be Michael Irvin.
Totally agree, I would like him to stay. Line him up in 3 wide and 4 wide...he's one on one with a guy everytime that is nowhere close to his speed...sure he'll drop a few but he'll haul in a few major catches along the way too. I like him as a WR3 much more than Bess, or line him up inside in 4 wide sets where he runs straight up the middle of the field...would be very nice.
Excellent post so those not familiar can really see how bad it has been. When you lead with Much and Smith, it does not seem that bad, but when you understand one is a pick from 1996 and the other from 2001 and the only decent FA has been Keyshawn (since 1996!), they just don't get the WR position. If Davone Bess were to put up his 2009 numbers in Carolina in 2010, he would be the best FA ever (or close send to Keyshawn) and the 2nd best running mate Smith ever had...pretty evident that he is an improvement.
Definitely too much talent to trade for what they would get for him. Maybe even move him back to DB for some plays, but he's good enough to be on the field if they find a way to use him.
Of course they know they need a #2. They thought Kerry Colbert could be that guy or Drew Carter. They thought Keyshawn Johnson could be that guy. They thought DJ Hackett could be that guy. They brought back Moose in hopes he could mentor Dwayne Jarrett to be that guy. It's not like they haven't tried. They are still looking for that guy.
Problem is, even if they do "hit" in the draft, unless this guy contributes in Year 1 or even 2, by the time he develops, Smith will be on a serious decline. The window is short for getting a runningmate for Smith and they have to bring in someone with experience if they want to take advantage of it. I know they missed on a couple of FAs, but they have to keep trying. You would think the management has a real "win now" mentality as they are themselves on a one-year plan. Couple that with the fact they lost/cut their two most expensive players in Delhomme and Peppers and the money should be there to do something...anything!I realise for us Panthers fans it is frustrating to see these WRs get traded left and right recently, but I have faith that we'll take a couple in the draft next week, one in the early rounds (2nd or 3rd) and one in the 6th/7th as a project. We'll definitely take one. If we don't, I'll eat my hat.
A guy like Kevin Walter would have been nice.Who all is left out there, wr-wise?Problem is, even if they do "hit" in the draft, unless this guy contributes in Year 1 or even 2, by the time he develops, Smith will be on a serious decline. The window is short for getting a runningmate for Smith and they have to bring in someone with experience if they want to take advantage of it. I know they missed on a couple of FAs, but they have to keep trying. You would think the management has a real "win now" mentality as they are themselves on a one-year plan. Couple that with the fact they lost/cut their two most expensive players in Delhomme and Peppers and the money should be there to do something...anything!I realise for us Panthers fans it is frustrating to see these WRs get traded left and right recently, but I have faith that we'll take a couple in the draft next week, one in the early rounds (2nd or 3rd) and one in the 6th/7th as a project. We'll definitely take one. If we don't, I'll eat my hat.
Agreed. Ginn's contract is reasonable and makes him very easy to trade but Carolina traded their 5th to KC for Tank Tyler.Denver is rumored to be asking for a 3rd for Scheffler. I like Scheffler but Carolina has a some holes and very few draft picks to fill them with.
Jerry Richardson I think would rather have his heart ripped out than sign TO. Richardson is very old school like the Rooneys. He doesn't like problem children and with Smitty on the team, that's about the only ego this team can afford. As to drafting someone, you can see my earlier post about how well Carolina has done in the draft for WR's. It's about as pretty as a
I think we'll probably take someone in the 3rd round as it's been the only successful round we've had in the draft for wr's (Smith). The last 2 second rounders have been failures (Colbert and Jarrett). I think we'll go defensive line in the 2nd and WR in the 3rd. Probably someone who can do WR as well as KR and PR.
Coles would be an interesting fit. He is a veteran possession receiver, which could help a young QB, and he would seem to complement Smith reasonably well. I think he's better than Moore since he could be signed without giving up a pick, and none of the others strike me as good candidates, either because they are too expensive (Floyd, Owens), unreliable (Curtis), don't complement Smith as well IMO (Curtis, Hixon, Floyd, Williams), or are too risky for multiple reasons (Owens).
Pennington only threw 74 passes last season.
