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Patriots being investigated after Colts game (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter HobbesAB
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BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Run It Up
Footballguy
So one of the witnesses is an NFL employee? Yes, one of our only witnesses. And he's still with you? No, he was let go. Why? He was stealing memorabilia meant for charity and selling it for personal profit.
Literally no mention in the report that he was fired, no questions about his character. ####### anything.
Well at least the science is sound right? Its not like they will say literally whatever they are paid to say or anything. According to Exponent, second hand smoke doesn't cause cancer - great news everyone, public smoking is back on.
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Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
I don't disagree. Im interested to see if they suspend him. If I have to guess right now I'd say he gets nothing but the team gets a pretty rough fine while we wait for the next player/ team to do something stupid and move on.
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
The real winner in the Wells report was Shady McCoy though lol
Franknbeans
Footballguy
Godsbrother
Footballguy
It would be interesting if they did suspend Brady and the NFL season opener would not include the Super Bowl MVP or LeVeon Bell.
rockaction
Footballguy
They got caught cheating so that they would gain an advantage on other opponents. This should almost be tautological in its logical conclusion. There aren't many leaps to make.
massraider
Footballguy
Clearly a conspiracy against the Patriots.
I'm sure Kraft is sick of of his mortal enemy Robert Goodell (or gold buddy/BFF 4eva!) chasing his team around, and thwarting him at every turn. Like when he unfairly burned the SpyGate tapes.
BTW:
TEXT MESSAGES
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
The idea that this had little to no effect seems to be completely untrue when looking at those fumble numbers. The same year that the rule was changed to allow teams to provide their own footballs (a rule lobbied for by Brady) is the exact same time that the Patriots suddenly started fumbling the ball at an impossibly low rate.
With turnover differential alone accounting for 78% of wins regardless of any other variables, it's pretty safe to conclude that deflating the balls had a direct impact on the number of wins for the Patriots since 2007.
With turnover differential alone accounting for 78% of wins regardless of any other variables, it's pretty safe to conclude that deflating the balls had a direct impact on the number of wins for the Patriots since 2007.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
Pats starting rb is suspended too.
Maybe big ben can take a chic into the bathroom and join the suspended parade
moleculo
Footballguy
this bothers me still.
updating the above with data from the Wells report:
assume indoor temp in the lockerroom is 75 dF (T1), and the temp on the field is 51 dF (T2). That temperature differential would cause a 1.2 PSI drop, which is exactly what the Patriots balls saw.
The obvious question: Why did the Colts balls not show that same 1.2 psi drop? Well, they did demonstrate a 0.5 psi drop, which is what one would expect if they were maybe not quite as cold...say, 65 dF.
We do know that the Colts balls were measured last, because the Refs weren't able to measure all of them before halftime was over. It's entirely possible that the pressure difference can be accounted for, atmospherically.
massraider
Footballguy
The only way they got the text messages was by McNally and Jasremski turning over their phones.
Brady refused to turn over emails and his phone. Makes me wonder what was on there. He'd rather face the backlash of refusing to cooperate in an NFL investigation (a major no-no) that let them see his emails or text messages.
Brady refused to turn over emails and his phone. Makes me wonder what was on there. He'd rather face the backlash of refusing to cooperate in an NFL investigation (a major no-no) that let them see his emails or text messages.
Can you prove it doesn't? And can you prove it not just with a "preponderance of evidence," but with "clear and convincing evidence?" Because unless you can, than that means not changing your socks does help, despite logic telling us otherwise.
JamesTheScot
Footballguy
You think Goodell, had he a magic wand, wouldn't love for Brady to not be in this predicament? Goodell is in a no-win. To protect the shield, he has to tarnish the shield by publicly disciplining one of the league's foremost poster boys.
Similarly with Ray Rice and ADP.
These guys not doing these things is what's best for the league. Goodell is just trying to mitigate the damage to the rep of the shield once it's been established that these things happened.
The inference that Brady is falsely convicted on false testimony would beg for some sort of motive on the part of Goodell. What does he or the NFL have to gain by chasing this deflategate rabbit down its hole? It does nothing but create problems for the perceived integrity of NFL game results. That will never be a good thing for the shield.
If Goodell hammers Brady, it's because he thinks Brady is guilty.
I dont blame Brady for that.
But even with zero subpoena power Wells still came up with a convincing evidence-set.
We can all be sure of this too; Gronk has a very "unique" take on this situation:
http://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2015/5/6/8563257/rob-gronkowski-deflategate-deez-nuts-video
massraider
Footballguy
Tom: Giselle, that box of memorabilia marked 'McNally'. Could you throw that out please?
Giselle: Sure. But the garbage man came yesterday. They come again Thursday.
Tom: No, this gotta happen ASAP. Find a dumpster. Ask Aaron's GF, she knows where they all are.
Right, because it hasn't been reported multiple times that they would focus only on the issue at hand, that Brady (or his attorney/representative) would keep custody of the phone, etc.
McNally and Jasremski arent mega-celebrities with supermodel wives. If I was Brady there is no way i'd do it either. If Gisele (or somebody else...) sent him some hot text messages, you really gonna rely on that not to leak? No ####### way.
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Oh, so its the physical phone and not the data wherein resides the naked selfie. My understanding of this magical technology must have been wrong.
Bossman
Footballguy
As a Pats fan I can not deny that they probably did it.
Too much evidence to refute.
Security video showing Pats employee takes balls into a restroom that he wouldn't normally use ... his reasoning was to avoid bothering game officials?
Same person refers to himself in a text as "The Deflator" ... way before Deflategate became a thing.
I still have doubts that Brady gave the order to deflate balls. He may have let it be known that he likes them low and likely didn't question how it got done.
Still guilty to some degree.
Send down the punishment. I'm ready to move on.
Too much evidence to refute.
Security video showing Pats employee takes balls into a restroom that he wouldn't normally use ... his reasoning was to avoid bothering game officials?
Same person refers to himself in a text as "The Deflator" ... way before Deflategate became a thing.
I still have doubts that Brady gave the order to deflate balls. He may have let it be known that he likes them low and likely didn't question how it got done.
Still guilty to some degree.
Send down the punishment. I'm ready to move on.
Perhaps what Brady should have said Super Bowl week:
"I like the balls soft and those are the ones I pick during the selection process. The equipment guys know this; as a matter of fact I made sure they knew that and, as you'd expect, they try their hardest to make me happy. But we never set out to break the rules. That being said, there's a chance that in the efforts to make sure the balls were soft somebody crossed a line and set the balls below the limits. If that's the case, even though I dont get into the detail of any of this, the fact that I made it known that I like the balls softer was the reason all of this happened and so I feel I should take complete responsibility for whatever happened and whatever the outcome is.
As much as it sounds like Im pointing fingers, I'd be remiss if I didnt say that this sort of directive is common in the league among quarterbacks and I wouldnt be surprised if the legal limits were tested from time to time. That being said, my responsibility to the game should be to ensure, to the furthest extent I can, that the balls I use are legal and I clearly need to do a better job at that. And, along with accepting whatever punishment may or may not come my way if a rule was broken, I will change the internal procedures from this day forward. Thank you."
"I like the balls soft and those are the ones I pick during the selection process. The equipment guys know this; as a matter of fact I made sure they knew that and, as you'd expect, they try their hardest to make me happy. But we never set out to break the rules. That being said, there's a chance that in the efforts to make sure the balls were soft somebody crossed a line and set the balls below the limits. If that's the case, even though I dont get into the detail of any of this, the fact that I made it known that I like the balls softer was the reason all of this happened and so I feel I should take complete responsibility for whatever happened and whatever the outcome is.
As much as it sounds like Im pointing fingers, I'd be remiss if I didnt say that this sort of directive is common in the league among quarterbacks and I wouldnt be surprised if the legal limits were tested from time to time. That being said, my responsibility to the game should be to ensure, to the furthest extent I can, that the balls I use are legal and I clearly need to do a better job at that. And, along with accepting whatever punishment may or may not come my way if a rule was broken, I will change the internal procedures from this day forward. Thank you."
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Franknbeans
Footballguy
What is getting lost in all of this is that Brady loves soft balls
The General
Footballguy
No where near the level of Armstrong scumbaggery.
netnalp
Footballguy
Now will that hurt Brady or help him? Will the league consider the refusal as guilty. Like when someone refuses to take the league's drug test.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I agree -- it's different on that dimension.
Brady and Armstrong are similar in that they both cheated, they both would have been elite without cheating, and they may even have been able to win championships without cheating (not that we'll ever know of course).
I think in and of itself its not going to hurt him.. because he does have an excellent reason not to turn over his phone. I think all the other stuff is plenty to make a circumstantial case that he was in on this, so refusing to turn over the phone isnt really an issue- lying to the investigators and media is the sin.
Dont forget Nolan Ryan. He scuffed his baseballs. In fact every HoF pitcher since that rule went in place. Equally guilty and we'll never know if they were any good.
The General
Footballguy
Native
Footballguy
The General
Footballguy
Don't want to derail the pile on of Brady at all because I lost all kinds of respect for him, am not a fan, and am loving this.But, Armstrong and Brady's circumstances are really only similar in that they lied.
Armstrong's cheating and lying are so much worse not even comparable.
Brady still sucks though!!!
lod01
Footballguy
More entertaining would be for them to drag this out into the season, Let him play against Pitt., then suspend him for 2 games vs Buffalo and the Jags. Or even better, at the end of the season after they have already clinched the division, a 3 game suspension vs the Texans, Titans and Jets.
Hooper31
Footballguy
You have my sympathies. Being represented by the loud-mouth blind homers that have posted in this thread hundreds of times isn't fair to you and other rational Pats fan.
I've been a huge Brady fan through the years. Mad respect for how he approaches his work and his professionalism in the past, but this just looks bad. Anyone that tries to argue differently is being purposefully obtuse.
There are two factors here to consider with Brady, and they are being confused.
1) Character. He cheated, or at least encouraged cheating (if theres a difference). He lied about it.
2) The crime itself and its impact on the game.
People can argue about how much #1 affects Brady's legacy, and how much the deception etc should impact the punishment (if any). Thats totally reasonable and pretty much arbitrary. You could say he should be banned for life for being a bad representative of the game, or he should walk. EIther answer is defensible.
But point 2 is different. People are comparing slightly deflating a football to Lance Armstrong etc? Its simply apples and oranges. Ive argued Brady's actions are much closer to scuffing a baseball to put an extra quarter inch on your curve ball than to using PEDs that might be the only reason you can compete in your sport at all (much less excel). The NFL, traditionally, seems to view tampering with a football as about the same level of a crime, the fine in the rulebook is 25,000 (minimum grant you), only slightly more than spearing somebody. IE- If Brady had pulled a ball he brought from home out of his bag and used it, the NFL feels thats about a 25,000 crime (all things being equal).
This is just not THAT big a deal from the effect on the game perspective, and pretty much every QB interviewed has made that point. Brady, for instance, threw for 328 yards and 4 TDs in the SB against the best defense in the league with balls that you can be sure were absolutely 100% kosher. To argue 'well, we'll just never know if Brady was actually any good' is ludicrous.
If Brady is a scumbag, he's a scumbag for lying and covering up. Not for somehow 'fixing' that game by taking some major unfair advantage. At best its a marginal advantage and one that apparently is well known and common in the League and has been forever.
1) Character. He cheated, or at least encouraged cheating (if theres a difference). He lied about it.
2) The crime itself and its impact on the game.
People can argue about how much #1 affects Brady's legacy, and how much the deception etc should impact the punishment (if any). Thats totally reasonable and pretty much arbitrary. You could say he should be banned for life for being a bad representative of the game, or he should walk. EIther answer is defensible.
But point 2 is different. People are comparing slightly deflating a football to Lance Armstrong etc? Its simply apples and oranges. Ive argued Brady's actions are much closer to scuffing a baseball to put an extra quarter inch on your curve ball than to using PEDs that might be the only reason you can compete in your sport at all (much less excel). The NFL, traditionally, seems to view tampering with a football as about the same level of a crime, the fine in the rulebook is 25,000 (minimum grant you), only slightly more than spearing somebody. IE- If Brady had pulled a ball he brought from home out of his bag and used it, the NFL feels thats about a 25,000 crime (all things being equal).
This is just not THAT big a deal from the effect on the game perspective, and pretty much every QB interviewed has made that point. Brady, for instance, threw for 328 yards and 4 TDs in the SB against the best defense in the league with balls that you can be sure were absolutely 100% kosher. To argue 'well, we'll just never know if Brady was actually any good' is ludicrous.
If Brady is a scumbag, he's a scumbag for lying and covering up. Not for somehow 'fixing' that game by taking some major unfair advantage. At best its a marginal advantage and one that apparently is well known and common in the League and has been forever.
Skoo
Footballguy
From: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/07/suspension-of-tom-brady-seems-unavoidable/
One popular theory/rationalization that has emerged in the wake of this news is that Brady may have had private information that he didn’t want Wells and his team of investigators to see. But the Wells report explains that “we offered to allow Brady’s counsel to screen and control the production so that it would be limited strictly to responsive materials and would not involve our taking possession of Brady’s telephone or other electronic devices.”
The contents of the text messages provided by John Jastremski and Jim McNally demonstrate how valuable those communications can be in getting to the truth. If the Patriots had stonewalled Wells regarding the Jastremski and McNally texts, it would have been a lot harder for Wells to conclude that something fishy had been occurring. So it’s no surprise that Wells described Brady’s actions as “not helpful” to the investigation.
The General
Footballguy
:Sidetrack:
Brady and Edelman kicked ### in the Super Bowl for sure.
That was not the number one pass D though. Sherman, Thomas, Kam dinged up, and Lane knocked out of game.
Back to cheater Brady.
massraider
Footballguy
Yah, you don't get to say no to the investigator because your wife is famous. And if you do, you don't get to be above suspicion because your wife is famous.
This isn't Hollywood
This isn't Hollywood
rick6668
Footballguy
massraider
Footballguy
The General
Footballguy
There's plenty of time if he's suspended for both an appeal and a decision to handed down well before the opening game.
FUBAR
Footballguy
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
The fumble statistics completely disprove this line of argument. It had a HUGE impact.
How does that work in practice though. Is it the Hillary Clinton way- 'hey, ive compiled everything you were looking for on my own, oh and deleted the rest' which is just silly. Or you somehow, what, have Brady and his lawyer sit while an IT nerd picks through all his emails, texts, snapchats whatever, they all look at them and decide if its relevant? How does that protect his privacy? And again it take one slip for somebody to snap a pic or grab a copy of something that would explode all of the interwebs and potentially ruin some lives.
Sounds great in theory, but in practice Brady either gives other people access to his phone and takes the risk, or he doesnt.
netnalp
Footballguy
It has to be more preferable than if he had to make a decision before the Super Bowl. That'd been real ugly.
