Patriots being investigated after Colts game (4 Viewers)

[12punch]

Is a gm sending a text message a big deal? Is it worth a 4 game suspension? Did it give a competitive advantage?

He got a 4 game suspension.

What was worse? What gave more of an advantage? And who lied to the league and didn't comply with the investigation?

well, the suspension wasn't for sending a text message, as I'm sure you know.

it was for breaking the same rule belichick broke in 2007 that you were probably about , and that cost the pats a 1st round pick.

as for who gets a greater advantage from whatever, the pats haven't given themselves any kind of advantage, so I guess the text messages would be greater, even if completely trivial.

or the sticky towel...

or the stick um....

or the cap cheating.....

or the tampering.......

or the vaseline........

or the steroids.......

or the etc......

 

[12punch]

Is a gm sending a text message a big deal? Is it worth a 4 game suspension? Did it give a competitive advantage?

He got a 4 game suspension.

What was worse? What gave more of an advantage? And who lied to the league and didn't comply with the investigation?

Yeah, Cleveland can barely hope to survive those 4 games without the GM. That might be the most useless suspension in the history of sports.

that's actually more like a reward.

too bad he wasn't suspended when manziel got drafted

 

[davearm]

Is a gm sending a text message a big deal? Is it worth a 4 game suspension? Did it give a competitive advantage?

He got a 4 game suspension.

What was worse? What gave more of an advantage? And who lied to the league and didn't comply with the investigation?

well, the suspension wasn't for sending a text message, as I'm sure you know.

it was for breaking the same rule belichick broke in 2007 that you were probably about , and that cost the pats a 1st round pick.

as for who gets a greater advantage from whatever, the pats haven't given themselves any kind of advantage, so I guess the text messages would be greater, even if completely trivial.

or the sticky towel...

or the stick um....

or the cap cheating.....

or the tampering.......

or the vaseline........

or the steroids.......

or the etc......

So the Pats deflated the footballs even though there was no advantage of any kind from doing so.

I think this is where I'm supposed to say shark pool be sharkin'. Did I do it right?

 

[12punch]

Oh, wait, I know! Brady's agent was part of the whole NFL conspiracy sting operation! They must have "turned him" years and years ago, before he signed Brady as his client & planned this all out. Those sneaky, salty haters!

if anybody else had posted this it would've come off as sarcasm

 

[12punch]

how about someone intentionally pushes his socks down so that he can stay cooler. That's an equipment violation. How many game suspension should that be? 2? 4?

its not a competitive advantage so this post is just silly

A rule is a rule. Deflating balls isn't a competitive advantage either.

It's not!!!????

apparently not according to a a ron rodgers --- no offense, but I'll take his word over your imagination.

 

[12punch]

Is a gm sending a text message a big deal? Is it worth a 4 game suspension? Did it give a competitive advantage?

He got a 4 game suspension.

What was worse? What gave more of an advantage? And who lied to the league and didn't comply with the investigation?

well, the suspension wasn't for sending a text message, as I'm sure you know.

it was for breaking the same rule belichick broke in 2007 that you were probably about , and that cost the pats a 1st round pick.

as for who gets a greater advantage from whatever, the pats haven't given themselves any kind of advantage, so I guess the text messages would be greater, even if completely trivial.

or the sticky towel...

or the stick um....

or the cap cheating.....

or the tampering.......

or the vaseline........

or the steroids.......

or the etc......

So the Pats deflated the footballs even though there was no advantage of any kind from doing so.

I think this is where I'm supposed to say shark pool be sharkin'. Did I do it right?

I don't remember saying that

shark pool be sharkin'!

 

[Pots]

5 out of the last 6 posts by 12punch, new record?

 

[rick6668]

5 out of the last 6 posts by 12punch, new record?

12punch be punchin'

 

[12punch]

Yeah, none of what you said has anything to do with the situation.

Similarly, although Tom Brady appeared for a requested interview and answered questions voluntarily, he declined to make available any documents or electronic information (including text messages and emails) that we requested, even though those requests were limited to the subject matter of our investigation (such as messages concerning the preparation of game balls, air pressure of balls, inflation of balls or deflation of balls) and we offered to allow Brady‟s counsel to screen and control the production so that it would be limited strictly to responsive materials and would not involve our taking possession of Brady‟s telephone or other electronic devices.

This statement defies common sense. Are we supposed to believe that, if Brady handed the phone to his lawyer, and two days later the lawyer tells Wells "Nope, there are no text messages related to the subject matter at hand", then Wells would have dropped it?

Since they failed to comply with the request, I can't say.

I don't know what kind of consequences there might be for a lawyer if, say, he did that and then the investigation turned up other evidence he lied (copies of the text on another phone, testimony from someone else who received such a text or call, etc). Is that something that could lead to disbarment? Some lesser sanction? Nothing at all? I have no idea.

For whatever reason, they didn't choose to comply with the request. Do you think not complying makes Brady somehow look better than, say, complying and having the investigators question whether they were honest about it?

I think it makes him look like 99% of the rest of the world, and this board, who wouldn't want to give up their phone unless required to by law.

I wonder if mutt and jeff would've agreed to it if they knew conversations with their mother and fiancee would be published online.

 

[12punch]

5 out of the last 6 posts by 12punch, new record?

yeah, it's hard to keep up with you guys.

salty trolls are herd animals and I'm just 1 guy

 

[Bayhawks]

Yeah, none of what you said has anything to do with the situation.

Similarly, although Tom Brady appeared for a requested interview and answered questions voluntarily, he declined to make available any documents or electronic information (including text messages and emails) that we requested, even though those requests were limited to the subject matter of our investigation (such as messages concerning the preparation of game balls, air pressure of balls, inflation of balls or deflation of balls) and we offered to allow Brady‟s counsel to screen and control the production so that it would be limited strictly to responsive materials and would not involve our taking possession of Brady‟s telephone or other electronic devices.

This statement defies common sense. Are we supposed to believe that, if Brady handed the phone to his lawyer, and two days later the lawyer tells Wells "Nope, there are no text messages related to the subject matter at hand", then Wells would have dropped it?

Since they failed to comply with the request, I can't say.

I don't know what kind of consequences there might be for a lawyer if, say, he did that and then the investigation turned up other evidence he lied (copies of the text on another phone, testimony from someone else who received such a text or call, etc). Is that something that could lead to disbarment? Some lesser sanction? Nothing at all? I have no idea.

For whatever reason, they didn't choose to comply with the request. Do you think not complying makes Brady somehow look better than, say, complying and having the investigators question whether they were honest about it?

I think it makes him look like 99% of the rest of the world, and this board, who wouldn't want to give up their phone unless required to by law.

I wonder if mutt and jeff would've agreed to it if they knew conversations with their mother and fiancee would be published online.

Holy Crap. I'm starting to believe that you aren't trolling, and you really are this dense.

We're not talking about giving up the phone, because that's not what Wells asked them to do. Per Brady's own agent, Wells asked them to go through TB's phone & provide the information Wells' investigation was asking for. They chose not to do so.

You think everyone would do that? You think Brady is innocent (I'm assuming, based on your posts in this thread). If that's the case, then there is nothing on his phone that would "incriminate" him in this matter. So you think that 99% of the rest of the world would refuse to provide information that would prove their innocence? Seriously, that's what you think?

 

[Run It Up]

I thought I read the NFL PA advised him not to in addition to his attorney.

 

[12punch]

well, considering stopping for a minute to take a piss is incriminating, I wouldn't be so quick to pass judgement on what's incriminating and what's not.

 

[Pots]

5 out of the last 6 posts by 12punch, new record?

yeah, it's hard to keep up with you guys.

salty trolls are herd animals and I'm just 1 guy

More like 1 troll working overtime. I do respect your commitment. What's the over/under of the % of your total posts being from this thread by the time it's done? 25%?

 

[12punch]

I thought I read the NFL PA advised him not to in addition to his attorney.

THOSE GUYS ARE PART OF THE COVER UP!!!

DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND???!!

THEY CAN'T FOOL US!!

 

[12punch]

5 out of the last 6 posts by 12punch, new record?

yeah, it's hard to keep up with you guys.

salty trolls are herd animals and I'm just 1 guy

More like 1 troll working overtime. I do respect your commitment. What's the over/under of the % of your total posts being from this thread by the time it's done? 25%?

what's my % of posts from all pats threads?

now, what's your excuse?

 

[Bayhawks]

I thought I read the NFL PA advised him not to in addition to his attorney.

Not according to this.

But let's ignore that link, because it doesn't fit with our conspiracy theory.

 

[Run It Up]

I thought I read the NFL PA advised him not to in addition to his attorney.

Not according to this.But let's ignore that link, because it doesn't fit with our conspiracy theory.

Thanks for the link. This was actually one of the things I was unsure about. I personally wouldn't have given them my phone records. But I thought I had read the NFL PA advised against it. It might have been mixed up with one of the previous shenanigans in the NFL. Maybe Bountygate. Either way I was mistaken.

Also dial back your snide bull#### pls.

 

[Cjw_55106]

I dont care about Brady in the least. I do find it funny that people here seem to have no problem with handing over their private information to the their bosses. Im sure all of you against Brady for this would readily hand over your texts and email to your bosses, right? To suggest not doing so makes someone guilty is laughable.

 

[Pots]

5 out of the last 6 posts by 12punch, new record?

yeah, it's hard to keep up with you guys.

salty trolls are herd animals and I'm just 1 guy

More like 1 troll working overtime. I do respect your commitment. What's the over/under of the % of your total posts being from this thread by the time it's done? 25%?

what's my % of posts from all pats threads?

now, what's your excuse?

My excuse for what? I've got like 8 posts in this thread. You have 400. It's like you're trying to drown out all criticism of Shady Brady and Bellicheat by yourself. I'm sorry your team did this, and I'm sorry their reputation is tarnished because of it, but it's their own fault.

 

[12punch]

5 out of the last 6 posts by 12punch, new record?

yeah, it's hard to keep up with you guys.

salty trolls are herd animals and I'm just 1 guy

More like 1 troll working overtime. I do respect your commitment. What's the over/under of the % of your total posts being from this thread by the time it's done? 25%?

what's my % of posts from all pats threads?

now, what's your excuse?

My excuse for what? I've got like 8 posts in this thread. You have 400. It's like you're trying to drown out all criticism of Shady Brady and Bellicheat by yourself. I'm sorry your team did this, and I'm sorry their reputation is tarnished because of it, but it's their own fault.

and how many did you read?

 

[Bayhawks]

I thought I read the NFL PA advised him not to in addition to his attorney.

Not according to this.But let's ignore that link, because it doesn't fit with our conspiracy theory.

Thanks for the link. This was actually one of the things I was unsure about. I personally wouldn't have given them my phone records. But I thought I had read the NFL PA advised against it. It might have been mixed up with one of the previous shenanigans in the NFL. Maybe Bountygate. Either way I was mistaken.

Also dial back your snide bull#### pls.

My apologies. But, I'll tell you what-when posters like 12 punch dial back their homeristic, head-in-the-sand argumentative posting, I'll dial back my "snide bull####." Until then, I'll post how I see fit.

 

[Bayhawks]

I dont care about Brady in the least. I do find it funny that people here seem to have no problem with handing over their private information to the their bosses. Im sure all of you against Brady for this would readily hand over your texts and email to your bosses, right? To suggest not doing so makes someone guilty is laughable.

If I had nothing to hide, and turning over my phone would prove my innocence, while refusing to do so would result in a suspension from work/loss of wages, I absolutely would do so.

 

[Pots]

5 out of the last 6 posts by 12punch, new record?

yeah, it's hard to keep up with you guys.

salty trolls are herd animals and I'm just 1 guy

More like 1 troll working overtime. I do respect your commitment. What's the over/under of the % of your total posts being from this thread by the time it's done? 25%?

what's my % of posts from all pats threads?

now, what's your excuse?

My excuse for what? I've got like 8 posts in this thread. You have 400. It's like you're trying to drown out all criticism of Shady Brady and Bellicheat by yourself. I'm sorry your team did this, and I'm sorry their reputation is tarnished because of it, but it's their own fault.

and how many did you read?

I assume you mean posts in this thread? Most of them since the report came out, besides the people that have made my ignore list in this thread.

 

[cstu]

I dont care about Brady in the least. I do find it funny that people here seem to have no problem with handing over their private information to the their bosses. Im sure all of you against Brady for this would readily hand over your texts and email to your bosses, right? To suggest not doing so makes someone guilty is laughable.

If I had nothing to hide, and turning over my phone would prove my innocence, while refusing to do so would result in a suspension from work/loss of wages, I absolutely would do so.

Especially when you have a HOF, GOAT career to defend. He's guilty, folks, let it go.

 

[BroadwayG]

I thought I read the NFL PA advised him not to in addition to his attorney.

Not according to this.

But let's ignore that link, because it doesn't fit with our conspiracy theory.

Without a named source this has no legs. Probably the same source that said Mariota to TB was a lock.

 

[Rubi]

Bleacher Report saying "heavy" suspension about to come down(4-6 games) and Brady will appeal.

 

[Run It Up]

Bleacher Report saying "heavy" suspension about to come down(4-6 games) and Brady will appeal.

Same sources the NFL challenged?

 

[davearm]

Is a gm sending a text message a big deal? Is it worth a 4 game suspension? Did it give a competitive advantage?

He got a 4 game suspension.

What was worse? What gave more of an advantage? And who lied to the league and didn't comply with the investigation?

well, the suspension wasn't for sending a text message, as I'm sure you know.

it was for breaking the same rule belichick broke in 2007 that you were probably about , and that cost the pats a 1st round pick.

as for who gets a greater advantage from whatever, the pats haven't given themselves any kind of advantage, so I guess the text messages would be greater, even if completely trivial.

or the sticky towel...

or the stick um....

or the cap cheating.....

or the tampering.......

or the vaseline........

or the steroids.......

or the etc......

So the Pats deflated the footballs even though there was no advantage of any kind from doing so.

I think this is where I'm supposed to say shark pool be sharkin'. Did I do it right?

I don't remember saying that

shark pool be sharkin'!

I thought by now everyone had come to understand and accept that a) the footballs were deflated, and b) they were deflated by McNally, and c) McNally is a Patriots employee.

So you are refusing to accept one or more of the above conclusions?

 

[Bayhawks]

Bleacher Report saying "heavy" suspension about to come down(4-6 games) and Brady will appeal.

That's too much, IMO. The only reason I can see a suspension that long is the NFL hopes Brady will accept a lessened suspension upon appeal. Someone with more legal knowledge/knowledge about labor law would have to enlighten me about whether accepting a reduced suspension upon appeal would mitigate Brady's legal options.

 

[12punch]

5 out of the last 6 posts by 12punch, new record?

yeah, it's hard to keep up with you guys.

salty trolls are herd animals and I'm just 1 guy

More like 1 troll working overtime. I do respect your commitment. What's the over/under of the % of your total posts being from this thread by the time it's done? 25%?

what's my % of posts from all pats threads?

now, what's your excuse?

My excuse for what? I've got like 8 posts in this thread. You have 400. It's like you're trying to drown out all criticism of Shady Brady and Bellicheat by yourself. I'm sorry your team did this, and I'm sorry their reputation is tarnished because of it, but it's their own fault.

and how many did you read?

I assume you mean posts in this thread? Most of them since the report came out, besides the people that have made my ignore list in this thread.

I don't know what you're complaining about --- you guys spend your days trolling pats fans for attention, and you got 400 out of me.

that's some blackbelt trolling, right there -- maybe lifetime achievement award inbound.

 

[12punch]

Bleacher Report saying "heavy" suspension about to come down(4-6 games) and Brady will appeal.

that reminds me I gotta change my calendar to 2015

 

[moleculo]

Bleacher Report saying "heavy" suspension about to come down(4-6 games) and Brady will appeal.

That's too much, IMO. The only reason I can see a suspension that long is the NFL hopes Brady will accept a lessened suspension upon appeal. Someone with more legal knowledge/knowledge about labor law would have to enlighten me about whether accepting a reduced suspension upon appeal would mitigate Brady's legal options.

one would assume that Brady would finally reveal his text messages and tell his complete side of the story as part of the appeal.

I only hope that this all becomes public and Godell doesn't destroy the evidence and then let the Pats off of the hook like he did last time.

 

[12punch]

since we're talking about the text messages, and brady's phone, and all that, I didn't actually read the report, so if any of you guys who did could answer a few questions, I'd appreciate it.

I saw a few hilarious exchanges between laurel and hardy, a few to a fiancee and a mother, but there's probably a lot more on there that didn't get blurbed.

could you repost or at least send me to the appropriate page to check out all the texts they were shooting back and forth about the jig being up, 'we gotta get our story straight!', I'll meet you in bahamas, etc

that would be pretty funny to see

also, I'd like to read the text convos between these guys and brady to see how shady brady comes off.

thanks in advance

 

[BroadwayG]

Those weren't shared with the investigation. Only the marginally incriminating ones were disclosed.

 

[12punch]

Bleacher Report saying "heavy" suspension about to come down(4-6 games) and Brady will appeal.

That's too much, IMO. The only reason I can see a suspension that long is the NFL hopes Brady will accept a lessened suspension upon appeal. Someone with more legal knowledge/knowledge about labor law would have to enlighten me about whether accepting a reduced suspension upon appeal would mitigate Brady's legal options.

one would assume that Brady would finally reveal his text messages and tell his complete side of the story as part of the appeal.

I only hope that this all becomes public and Godell doesn't destroy the evidence and then let the Pats off of the hook like he did last time.

hey, I have a question for you, since you seem to be one of the only people around here interested and educated in the science and engineering side of it.

I've seen you mention some kind of a 'master gauge' that apparently reads things 'correctly', whatever that means.

why would a referee in charge of this important task of ball measuring to ensure no unfair competitive advantages in a billion dollar sport be carrying 2 different gauges that read a half pound apart?

also, should we expect various team gauges to synch up with one or another of these, or give a whole spectrum of different readings?

if you have experience with these gauges, what kind of range of disparity could we expect these gauges to read?

 

[David Dodds]

Let's make this simple:

6-8 games lessened to none if the three in question pass a lie detector test of ONE tough question. They will ask their name, etc to create the baseline.

Simple question:

1. Do you have any knowledge of anyone within the Patriots organization deflating balls post inspection?

 

[davearm]

Is a gm sending a text message a big deal? Is it worth a 4 game suspension? Did it give a competitive advantage?

He got a 4 game suspension.

What was worse? What gave more of an advantage? And who lied to the league and didn't comply with the investigation?

well, the suspension wasn't for sending a text message, as I'm sure you know.

it was for breaking the same rule belichick broke in 2007 that you were probably about , and that cost the pats a 1st round pick.

as for who gets a greater advantage from whatever, the pats haven't given themselves any kind of advantage, so I guess the text messages would be greater, even if completely trivial.

or the sticky towel...

or the stick um....

or the cap cheating.....

or the tampering.......

or the vaseline........

or the steroids.......

or the etc......

So the Pats deflated the footballs even though there was no advantage of any kind from doing so.

I think this is where I'm supposed to say shark pool be sharkin'. Did I do it right?

I don't remember saying that

shark pool be sharkin'!

I thought by now everyone had come to understand and accept that a) the footballs were deflated, and b) they were deflated by McNally, and c) McNally is a Patriots employee.

So you are refusing to accept one or more of the above conclusions?

Still fascinated to hear which of conclusions a) b) and c) above you dispute.

 

[the moops]

then let the Pats off of the hook like he did last time.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

12punch trying hard to win the contest.

Everybody else is just playing for second place at this point.

 

[12punch]

How is their chicanery even in doubt? The guy referred to himself as "The Deflator" before the season even started!

well, I really don't want to get dragged into a discussion of this nonsense with a bunch of poo flingers, as there's really no point, but in case this is actually a serious question....

I haven't read the thing, and you haven't either, but occasionally somebody will reference things that I want to look up, so at this point I've read a few pages, and the more I read it, the less I can figure out how people see anything in here.

you're referencing a handful of cherry picked texts lifted from a longer conversation between 2 buddies who have been apparently working together for 20 years, so you don't have any idea what kind of context there is, and this one, in particular, is from may.

they aren't playing football in may, but they are probably processing hundreds of footballs from the sound of it --- maybe somebody has some better info on that.

I am 100% sure that guy does deflate a ####load of balls to get them to spec and start the breaking in process.

I'm not making that claim, but the point is these are a handful of texts out of probably hundreds or thousands shot back and forth between these guys and you don't know what they reference any more than I do.

explain these texts that I rarely see mentioned

10/16 10p jastremski (to the deflator) (jets game started at 8:30p)

"Tom is acting crazy about balls" "Ready to vomit!"

10/17 8a jastremski (to his fiancee)

Ugh...Tom was right ---

I just measured some of the balls. They supposed to be 13 lbs... They were like 16. Felt like bricks

10/17 9a jastremski (to the deflator)

I checked some of the balls this morn... The refs
####ed us...a few of then were at almost 16

10/17 9a jastremski

They didnt recheck then after they put air in them

explain that string.

some guys supposedly altering the balls after the refs inspect them, to get them down to 11, are talking about a 16 pound ball that was supposed to be 13 pounds, which is right in the legal wheelhouse.

I'm assuming the ball must've been a little on the low end, like maybe 12, so the ref squirts an extra 4 pounds of air in there without noticing and they actually play with that ball, again without noticing.

people are going back and forth in this thread over a third of a pound of air like they think they have a half a brain in their head and it was left up to brady to notice he was playing with a ball 10x that much over spec --- but...but....the guy sneaking it off to the bathroom.......

the theory that the entire league knew about some great advantage the pats were playing with forever yet kept silent until the one day that a guy happened to sneak off to the bathroom for one minute to deflate 13 balls a third of a pound is the ramblings of an attention starved crackpot or a whiny pats hating troll frustrated by watching his team get drubbed every year.

I expect the next accusation will be about the pats putting listening devices in the other teams' cheese.

looks like about a dozen salty trolls have posted in the 4 hrs since I asked this

guess I'll just crack open a snickers.

 

[BroadwayG]

This is a lose/lose/lose punishment situation.

 

[davearm]

Bleacher Report saying "heavy" suspension about to come down(4-6 games) and Brady will appeal.

That's too much, IMO. The only reason I can see a suspension that long is the NFL hopes Brady will accept a lessened suspension upon appeal. Someone with more legal knowledge/knowledge about labor law would have to enlighten me about whether accepting a reduced suspension upon appeal would mitigate Brady's legal options.

one would assume that Brady would finally reveal his text messages and tell his complete side of the story as part of the appeal.

I only hope that this all becomes public and Godell doesn't destroy the evidence and then let the Pats off of the hook like he did last time.

hey, I have a question for you, since you seem to be one of the only people around here interested and educated in the science and engineering side of it.

I've seen you mention some kind of a 'master gauge' that apparently reads things 'correctly', whatever that means.

why would a referee in charge of this important task of ball measuring to ensure no unfair competitive advantages in a billion dollar sport be carrying 2 different gauges that read a half pound apart?

also, should we expect various team gauges to synch up with one or another of these, or give a whole spectrum of different readings?

if you have experience with these gauges, what kind of range of disparity could we expect these gauges to read?

The master gauge is the one that has been calibrated and confirmed to measure pressures accurately.

If Anderson carries two gauges, then one is probably a spare/backup. Or maybe the second gauge belonged to another official.

It's possible the official(s) didn't even know one of the gauges (the logo gauge) was out of calibration.

The report concluded that the non-logo gauge was likely the one Anderson used pregame, because the pregame readings were consistent with the teams' desired inflation levels (12.5 Pats, 13.0 Colts). The alternate explanation, that the out-of-calibration logo gauge was instead used, suggests that the Pats and Colts must also have been using gauges that were out of calibration, and by the same amount.

 

[12punch]

Bleacher Report saying "heavy" suspension about to come down(4-6 games) and Brady will appeal.

That's too much, IMO. The only reason I can see a suspension that long is the NFL hopes Brady will accept a lessened suspension upon appeal. Someone with more legal knowledge/knowledge about labor law would have to enlighten me about whether accepting a reduced suspension upon appeal would mitigate Brady's legal options.

one would assume that Brady would finally reveal his text messages and tell his complete side of the story as part of the appeal.

I only hope that this all becomes public and Godell doesn't destroy the evidence and then let the Pats off of the hook like he did last time.

hey, I have a question for you, since you seem to be one of the only people around here interested and educated in the science and engineering side of it.

I've seen you mention some kind of a 'master gauge' that apparently reads things 'correctly', whatever that means.

why would a referee in charge of this important task of ball measuring to ensure no unfair competitive advantages in a billion dollar sport be carrying 2 different gauges that read a half pound apart?

also, should we expect various team gauges to synch up with one or another of these, or give a whole spectrum of different readings?

if you have experience with these gauges, what kind of range of disparity could we expect these gauges to read?

The master gauge is the one that has been calibrated and confirmed to measure pressures accurately.

If Anderson carries two gauges, then one is probably a spare/backup. Or maybe the second gauge belonged to another official.

It's possible the official(s) didn't even know one of the gauges (the logo gauge) was out of calibration.

The report concluded that the non-logo gauge was likely the one Anderson used pregame, because the pregame readings were consistent with the teams' desired inflation levels (12.5 Pats, 13.0 Colts). The alternate explanation, that the out-of-calibration logo gauge was instead used, suggests that the Pats and Colts must also have been using gauges that were out of calibration, and by the same amount.

well, doesn't the report also say anderson thinks he used the logo gauge?

why would he think he used a back up gauge, or a gauge belonging to someone else?

I'm pretty sure also said that he's had both those gauges for a couple years.

how does the calibration process work?

how unusual is it for gauges to need calibration, and what kind of range in error can we expect?

thx for the info, btw

 

[moleculo]

Bleacher Report saying "heavy" suspension about to come down(4-6 games) and Brady will appeal.

That's too much, IMO. The only reason I can see a suspension that long is the NFL hopes Brady will accept a lessened suspension upon appeal. Someone with more legal knowledge/knowledge about labor law would have to enlighten me about whether accepting a reduced suspension upon appeal would mitigate Brady's legal options.

one would assume that Brady would finally reveal his text messages and tell his complete side of the story as part of the appeal.

I only hope that this all becomes public and Godell doesn't destroy the evidence and then let the Pats off of the hook like he did last time.

hey, I have a question for you, since you seem to be one of the only people around here interested and educated in the science and engineering side of it.

I've seen you mention some kind of a 'master gauge' that apparently reads things 'correctly', whatever that means.

why would a referee in charge of this important task of ball measuring to ensure no unfair competitive advantages in a billion dollar sport be carrying 2 different gauges that read a half pound apart?

also, should we expect various team gauges to synch up with one or another of these, or give a whole spectrum of different readings?

if you have experience with these gauges, what kind of range of disparity could we expect these gauges to read?

thanks for asking a legitimate question without snide. i'm happy to go over this as long as you keep it civil...start up with "shark pool be sharkin'" crap and I'm done.

The master gauge is a high precision gauge that Exponent used, certified and properly calibrated. This gauge can trace it's calibration back to the National Institute of Standards and Technology, as is commonly done with laboratory gauges.

Both of the refs gauges were measured against that master gauge, and ball pressures were transformed to the master gauge, to enable apple-to-apple comparison. Personally, I this is a little excessive and leads to what I call "torturing the data" - i.e. overly manipulating it. I think they did it to give more numbers...only 4 colts balls were measured, each twice. If you have a way to lump all of the data together, you get 8 measurements and while not ideal, n=8 is much better than n=4.

As to why the refs gauges being off - properly calibrated gauges are really expensive. They can be damaged in transport, etc. Ultimately though, proper calibration isn't that important, because as long as a gauge is consistent, it provides no team with an advantage. To that point, the exact psi of the football isn't that important either, so long as both teams footballs are equally inflated (i.e. within 1 psi of each other).

Take the Jets game. It's possible the balls were over-inflated because the refs gauge was way off. If that's the case, the Jets were playing with over-inflated footballs too, not just the Pats. An over-inflated ball is kind of like a wet football - it makes the ball hard to throw, and it makes it hard to catch, but equally for both teams. As long as both teams play with an over-inflated ball, neither team has an advantage.

I think it's a problem that the ref had a gauge that was so far off. But again, as long as he used the same gauge to measure both teams balls, it doesn't matter.

As far as the gauge repeatability, I only skimmed thru that portion of the report. it appears that over the operating range we are looking at, both gauges showed a standard deviation of 0.1 psi...that is, if a ball as a true pressure of 12.0PSI, ~68% of the time the gauge will measure between 11.9 and 12.1 PSI, and 99.999% of the time it will measure between 11.7 and 12.3 PSI.

 

[davearm]

How is their chicanery even in doubt? The guy referred to himself as "The Deflator" before the season even started!

well, I really don't want to get dragged into a discussion of this nonsense with a bunch of poo flingers, as there's really no point, but in case this is actually a serious question....

I haven't read the thing, and you haven't either, but occasionally somebody will reference things that I want to look up, so at this point I've read a few pages, and the more I read it, the less I can figure out how people see anything in here.

you're referencing a handful of cherry picked texts lifted from a longer conversation between 2 buddies who have been apparently working together for 20 years, so you don't have any idea what kind of context there is, and this one, in particular, is from may.

they aren't playing football in may, but they are probably processing hundreds of footballs from the sound of it --- maybe somebody has some better info on that.

I am 100% sure that guy does deflate a ####load of balls to get them to spec and start the breaking in process.

I'm not making that claim, but the point is these are a handful of texts out of probably hundreds or thousands shot back and forth between these guys and you don't know what they reference any more than I do.

explain these texts that I rarely see mentioned

10/16 10p jastremski (to the deflator) (jets game started at 8:30p)

"Tom is acting crazy about balls" "Ready to vomit!"

10/17 8a jastremski (to his fiancee)

Ugh...Tom was right ---

I just measured some of the balls. They supposed to be 13 lbs... They were like 16. Felt like bricks

10/17 9a jastremski (to the deflator)

I checked some of the balls this morn... The refs
####ed us...a few of then were at almost 16

10/17 9a jastremski

They didnt recheck then after they put air in them

explain that string.

some guys supposedly altering the balls after the refs inspect them, to get them down to 11, are talking about a 16 pound ball that was supposed to be 13 pounds, which is right in the legal wheelhouse.

I'm assuming the ball must've been a little on the low end, like maybe 12, so the ref squirts an extra 4 pounds of air in there without noticing and they actually play with that ball, again without noticing.

people are going back and forth in this thread over a third of a pound of air like they think they have a half a brain in their head and it was left up to brady to notice he was playing with a ball 10x that much over spec --- but...but....the guy sneaking it off to the bathroom.......

the theory that the entire league knew about some great advantage the pats were playing with forever yet kept silent until the one day that a guy happened to sneak off to the bathroom for one minute to deflate 13 balls a third of a pound is the ramblings of an attention starved crackpot or a whiny pats hating troll frustrated by watching his team get drubbed every year.

I expect the next accusation will be about the pats putting listening devices in the other teams' cheese.

looks like about a dozen salty trolls have posted in the 4 hrs since I asked this

guess I'll just crack open a snickers.

What's your question? The posts seem pretty self-explanatory to me. The refs discovered underinflated balls. They pumped them up. Brady noticed and threw a fit. The next day jastremski got his gauge out and found they were overinflated.

Apparently the deflategate team was foiled on that particular day.

 

[12punch]

Let's make this simple:

6-8 games lessened to none if the three in question pass a lie detector test of ONE tough question. They will ask their name, etc to create the baseline.

Simple question:

1. Do you have any knowledge of anyone within the Patriots organization deflating balls post inspection?

I have a question, too, maybe you could help out with.

you obviously wouldn't have any knowledge about this, but it's more speculation, and that's your whole business.

plus, I want somebody smart on this and bloom said you solved a rubik's cube one time.

there's been a lot made of the balls suddenly disappearing when the deflator absconded with them to the bathroom to carry out his dirty business.

do you think this was such a noteworthy event because he generally had a ref escort him to the field with the balls, or did this kind of thing happen all the time?

like, let's say the baltimore game --- you think refs walked those balls to the field or did he run off with them to the bathroom?

 

[davearm]

Bleacher Report saying "heavy" suspension about to come down(4-6 games) and Brady will appeal.

That's too much, IMO. The only reason I can see a suspension that long is the NFL hopes Brady will accept a lessened suspension upon appeal. Someone with more legal knowledge/knowledge about labor law would have to enlighten me about whether accepting a reduced suspension upon appeal would mitigate Brady's legal options.

one would assume that Brady would finally reveal his text messages and tell his complete side of the story as part of the appeal.

I only hope that this all becomes public and Godell doesn't destroy the evidence and then let the Pats off of the hook like he did last time.

hey, I have a question for you, since you seem to be one of the only people around here interested and educated in the science and engineering side of it.

I've seen you mention some kind of a 'master gauge' that apparently reads things 'correctly', whatever that means.

why would a referee in charge of this important task of ball measuring to ensure no unfair competitive advantages in a billion dollar sport be carrying 2 different gauges that read a half pound apart?

also, should we expect various team gauges to synch up with one or another of these, or give a whole spectrum of different readings?

if you have experience with these gauges, what kind of range of disparity could we expect these gauges to read?

The master gauge is the one that has been calibrated and confirmed to measure pressures accurately.

If Anderson carries two gauges, then one is probably a spare/backup. Or maybe the second gauge belonged to another official.

It's possible the official(s) didn't even know one of the gauges (the logo gauge) was out of calibration.

The report concluded that the non-logo gauge was likely the one Anderson used pregame, because the pregame readings were consistent with the teams' desired inflation levels (12.5 Pats, 13.0 Colts). The alternate explanation, that the out-of-calibration logo gauge was instead used, suggests that the Pats and Colts must also have been using gauges that were out of calibration, and by the same amount.

well, doesn't the report also say anderson thinks he used the logo gauge?

why would he think he used a back up gauge, or a gauge belonging to someone else?

I'm pretty sure also said that he's had both those gauges for a couple years.

how does the calibration process work?

how unusual is it for gauges to need calibration, and what kind of range in error can we expect?

thx for the info, btw

I don't know which gauge belongs to whom, and if both belong to Anderson, which he considers his backup gauge, and which he considers his main gauge. Maybe they're two gauges he keeps in his bag, and he uses whichever one he happens to pull out.

As for why the commission believes the properly-calibrated gauge was used pregame, I gave you that explanation.

The calibration questions, moleculo answered.

 

[12punch]

Bleacher Report saying "heavy" suspension about to come down(4-6 games) and Brady will appeal.

That's too much, IMO. The only reason I can see a suspension that long is the NFL hopes Brady will accept a lessened suspension upon appeal. Someone with more legal knowledge/knowledge about labor law would have to enlighten me about whether accepting a reduced suspension upon appeal would mitigate Brady's legal options.

one would assume that Brady would finally reveal his text messages and tell his complete side of the story as part of the appeal.

I only hope that this all becomes public and Godell doesn't destroy the evidence and then let the Pats off of the hook like he did last time.

hey, I have a question for you, since you seem to be one of the only people around here interested and educated in the science and engineering side of it.

I've seen you mention some kind of a 'master gauge' that apparently reads things 'correctly', whatever that means.

why would a referee in charge of this important task of ball measuring to ensure no unfair competitive advantages in a billion dollar sport be carrying 2 different gauges that read a half pound apart?

also, should we expect various team gauges to synch up with one or another of these, or give a whole spectrum of different readings?

if you have experience with these gauges, what kind of range of disparity could we expect these gauges to read?

thanks for asking a legitimate question without snide. i'm happy to go over this as long as you keep it civil...start up with "shark pool be sharkin'" crap and I'm done.

The master gauge is a high precision gauge that Exponent used, certified and properly calibrated. This gauge can trace it's calibration back to the National Institute of Standards and Technology, as is commonly done with laboratory gauges.

Both of the refs gauges were measured against that master gauge, and ball pressures were transformed to the master gauge, to enable apple-to-apple comparison. Personally, I this is a little excessive and leads to what I call "torturing the data" - i.e. overly manipulating it. I think they did it to give more numbers...only 4 colts balls were measured, each twice. If you have a way to lump all of the data together, you get 8 measurements and while not ideal, n=8 is much better than n=4.

As to why the refs gauges being off -1) properly calibrated gauges are really expensive. They can be damaged in transport, etc. Ultimately though, proper calibration isn't that important, because as long as a gauge is consistent, it provides no team with an advantage. 2) To that point, the exact psi of the football isn't that important either, so long as both teams footballs are equally inflated (i.e. within 1 psi of each other).

Take the Jets game. It's possible the balls were over-inflated because the refs gauge was way off. If that's the case, the Jets were playing with over-inflated footballs too, not just the Pats. An over-inflated ball is kind of like a wet football - it makes the ball hard to throw, and it makes it hard to catch, but equally for both teams. As long as both teams play with an over-inflated ball, neither team has an advantage.

I think it's a problem that the ref had a gauge that was so far off. But again, as long as he used the same gauge to measure both teams balls, it doesn't matter.

As far as the gauge repeatability, I only skimmed thru that portion of the report. it appears that over the operating range we are looking at, both gauges showed a standard deviation of 0.1 psi...that is, if a ball as a true pressure of 12.0PSI, ~68% of the time the gauge will measure between 11.9 and 12.1 PSI, and 99.999% of the time it will measure between 11.7 and 12.3 PSI.

the first bolded is pretty interesting --- I would've thought they could just somehow calibrate their gauges, periodically.

as for the second bolded -- what you're saying is that if one team has balls at 13 psi, and the other team's balls are all at 12 psi (within 1 psi) then everything's fine, there's no problems, and no rules broken?

the third bolded seems like a pretty tremendous leap, to me, but I'm not an engineer --- you think the guy's gauge was off 4 lbs?

does this really happen?

what happened to 99.999% of the time it will measure between 11.7 and 12.3 PSI

also, you do realize that teams don't share the same football anymore?

but you're willing to assume that pats and jets each played with a 16 psi ball?

 

[davearm]

Bleacher Report saying "heavy" suspension about to come down(4-6 games) and Brady will appeal.

That's too much, IMO. The only reason I can see a suspension that long is the NFL hopes Brady will accept a lessened suspension upon appeal. Someone with more legal knowledge/knowledge about labor law would have to enlighten me about whether accepting a reduced suspension upon appeal would mitigate Brady's legal options.

one would assume that Brady would finally reveal his text messages and tell his complete side of the story as part of the appeal.

I only hope that this all becomes public and Godell doesn't destroy the evidence and then let the Pats off of the hook like he did last time.

hey, I have a question for you, since you seem to be one of the only people around here interested and educated in the science and engineering side of it.

I've seen you mention some kind of a 'master gauge' that apparently reads things 'correctly', whatever that means.

why would a referee in charge of this important task of ball measuring to ensure no unfair competitive advantages in a billion dollar sport be carrying 2 different gauges that read a half pound apart?

also, should we expect various team gauges to synch up with one or another of these, or give a whole spectrum of different readings?

if you have experience with these gauges, what kind of range of disparity could we expect these gauges to read?

thanks for asking a legitimate question without snide. i'm happy to go over this as long as you keep it civil...start up with "shark pool be sharkin'" crap and I'm done.

The master gauge is a high precision gauge that Exponent used, certified and properly calibrated. This gauge can trace it's calibration back to the National Institute of Standards and Technology, as is commonly done with laboratory gauges.

Both of the refs gauges were measured against that master gauge, and ball pressures were transformed to the master gauge, to enable apple-to-apple comparison. Personally, I this is a little excessive and leads to what I call "torturing the data" - i.e. overly manipulating it. I think they did it to give more numbers...only 4 colts balls were measured, each twice. If you have a way to lump all of the data together, you get 8 measurements and while not ideal, n=8 is much better than n=4.

As to why the refs gauges being off -1) properly calibrated gauges are really expensive. They can be damaged in transport, etc. Ultimately though, proper calibration isn't that important, because as long as a gauge is consistent, it provides no team with an advantage. 2) To that point, the exact psi of the football isn't that important either, so long as both teams footballs are equally inflated (i.e. within 1 psi of each other).

Take the Jets game. It's possible the balls were over-inflated because the refs gauge was way off. If that's the case, the Jets were playing with over-inflated footballs too, not just the Pats. An over-inflated ball is kind of like a wet football - it makes the ball hard to throw, and it makes it hard to catch, but equally for both teams. As long as both teams play with an over-inflated ball, neither team has an advantage.

I think it's a problem that the ref had a gauge that was so far off. But again, as long as he used the same gauge to measure both teams balls, it doesn't matter.

As far as the gauge repeatability, I only skimmed thru that portion of the report. it appears that over the operating range we are looking at, both gauges showed a standard deviation of 0.1 psi...that is, if a ball as a true pressure of 12.0PSI, ~68% of the time the gauge will measure between 11.9 and 12.1 PSI, and 99.999% of the time it will measure between 11.7 and 12.3 PSI.

the first bolded is pretty interesting --- I would've thought they could just somehow calibrate their gauges, periodically.

as for the second bolded -- what you're saying is that if one team has balls at 13 psi, and the other team's balls are all at 12 psi (within 1 psi) then everything's fine, there's no problems, and no rules broken?

the third bolded seems like a pretty tremendous leap, to me, but I'm not an engineer --- you think the guy's gauge was off 4 lbs?

does this really happen?

what happened to 99.999% of the time it will measure between 11.7 and 12.3 PSI

also, you do realize that teams don't share the same football anymore?

but you're willing to assume that pats and jets each played with a 16 psi ball?

According to Jastremski, the Pats balls measured 16 PSI the next day, on his gauge. We don't know what they measured on the ref's gauge before the game.

What moleculo is saying is that if the ref's gauge was off by ~4 PSI, then he would have pumped up all 24 game balls to ~16 PSI.