Patriots being investigated after Colts game (4 Viewers)

[PatsWillWin]

I don't think it speaks of bias at all. I can't remember which shoe I tied first this morning, but I know I tied them.

When you use one of two nearly identical tools, I don't find it all that far fetched for one to not have a clear reccolection of which one he used.

Do you find it likely that the pats submitted balls pre-inspection at 12.9 psi, when they are clear that they inflate to 12.5? And, do you find it likely that the Colts submit at 13.4 psi, while they report 13.0?

Except the Wells report didn't say that Anderson didn't remember which gauge he used - Anderson said he *thinks* he used gauge A, and the Wells report made up some weird reason to assume that he used gauge B. Coincidentally, using gauge B creates a bigger pressure disparity.

 

[moleculo]

I don't think it speaks of bias at all. I can't remember which shoe I tied first this morning, but I know I tied them.

When you use one of two nearly identical tools, I don't find it all that far fetched for one to not have a clear reccolection of which one he used.

Do you find it likely that the pats submitted balls pre-inspection at 12.9 psi, when they are clear that they inflate to 12.5? And, do you find it likely that the Colts submit at 13.4 psi, while they report 13.0?

Except the Wells report didn't say that Anderson didn't remember which gauge he used - Anderson said he *thinks* he used gauge A, and the Wells report made up some weird reason to assume that he used gauge B. Coincidentally, using gauge B creates a bigger pressure disparity.

And, assuming gauge A explicitly requires the unlikely assumption I outlined above.

 

[12punch]

Anyone else think that some of the conduct penalties Goodell gives is because there is more than meets the eye.

For example:

Bountygate - Extremely harsh penalty to ban the coach and defensive coordinator. The story that was swept under the run though was the theft of a large number of Vicodin pills:

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/03/saints-accused-of-mishandling-prescription-drug/?_r=0

Did Goodell bring down the hammer, because he factored both in his decision?

which brings us to this case. Most people I know felt the Patriots got off lenient during Spygate. And I say lenient in the Commissioner did not release to the media what they found. By destroying the evidence, many NFL fans felt Goodell did a giant favor to Bob Kraft and the Patriots. Many people believe there was a secret deal in place...I will be lenient, but knock this crap off type of thing.

So when this story popped up and became National news, the last thing Goodell was expecting was Kraft to be asking for an apology. Egos colliding and all. Goodell is taking this appeal himself for good reason. He is going to shut this down. Having it over-turned renders him ineffective immediately (some would argue he has been that for awhile now).

On what planet did the Patriots get off light for SpyGate?

Planet of the hates

 

[General Tso]

I don't think it speaks of bias at all. I can't remember which shoe I tied first this morning, but I know I tied them.

When you use one of two nearly identical tools, I don't find it all that far fetched for one to not have a clear reccolection of which one he used.

Do you find it likely that the pats submitted balls pre-inspection at 12.9 psi, when they are clear that they inflate to 12.5? And, do you find it likely that the Colts submit at 13.4 psi, while they report 13.0?

Wait a minute - Walt Anderson said that "to the best of his recollection" he used the logo gauge pregame. It's on page 52 of the Wells Report.

The Wells Report concludes otherwise, for no other reason than it supports their overall conclusion that the balls were tampered with. It's dismissing the evidence because it doesn't support what you want it to support. The two gauges look entirely different. Not only does one have a huge logo on it, it also has a needle that is bent about 45 degrees. If a guy says "to the best of my recollection" he used that gauge, then you go with that. Otherwise you have to throw out all his other recollections and his other evidence, which includes all the pregame measurements. You can't pick and choose the facts of a case.

And if you concede that Anderson used the logo gauge pregame, as he recollects he did, then the disparity in psi is all explainable and predictable by the Ideal Gas Law.

 

[moleculo]

I don't think it speaks of bias at all. I can't remember which shoe I tied first this morning, but I know I tied them.

When you use one of two nearly identical tools, I don't find it all that far fetched for one to not have a clear reccolection of which one he used.

Do you find it likely that the pats submitted balls pre-inspection at 12.9 psi, when they are clear that they inflate to 12.5? And, do you find it likely that the Colts submit at 13.4 psi, while they report 13.0?

Wait a minute - Walt Anderson said that "to the best of his recollection" he used the logo gauge pregame. It's on page 52 of the Wells Report.The Wells Report concludes otherwise, for no other reason than it supports their overall conclusion that the balls were tampered with. It's dismissing the evidence because it doesn't support what you want it to support. The two gauges look entirely different. Not only does one have a huge logo on it, it also has a needle that is bent about 45 degrees. If a guy says "to the best of my recollection" he used that gauge, then you go with that. Otherwise you have to throw out all his other recollections and his other evidence, which includes all the pregame measurements. You can't pick and choose the facts of a case.

Do you find it likely that the pats submitted balls pre-inspection at 12.9 psi, when they are clear that they inflate to 12.5? And, do you find it likely that the Colts submit at 13.4 psi, while they report 13.0?

 

[General Tso]

I don't think it speaks of bias at all. I can't remember which shoe I tied first this morning, but I know I tied them.

When you use one of two nearly identical tools, I don't find it all that far fetched for one to not have a clear reccolection of which one he used.

Do you find it likely that the pats submitted balls pre-inspection at 12.9 psi, when they are clear that they inflate to 12.5? And, do you find it likely that the Colts submit at 13.4 psi, while they report 13.0?

Wait a minute - Walt Anderson said that "to the best of his recollection" he used the logo gauge pregame. It's on page 52 of the Wells Report.The Wells Report concludes otherwise, for no other reason than it supports their overall conclusion that the balls were tampered with. It's dismissing the evidence because it doesn't support what you want it to support. The two gauges look entirely different. Not only does one have a huge logo on it, it also has a needle that is bent about 45 degrees. If a guy says "to the best of my recollection" he used that gauge, then you go with that. Otherwise you have to throw out all his other recollections and his other evidence, which includes all the pregame measurements. You can't pick and choose the facts of a case.

Do you find it likely that the pats submitted balls pre-inspection at 12.9 psi, when they are clear that they inflate to 12.5? And, do you find it likely that the Colts submit at 13.4 psi, while they report 13.0?

Not sure where you are going with this. The Pats balls were gauged at 12.5 pregame, and the Colts were around 13.0. Of course the dimwit ref didn't write them down, so we have to take his word for it.

But if you assume the logo gauge was used pregame, which as mentioned is what the ref remembers using "to the best of his recollection", then by comparing to the logo gauge readings at halftime the Pats balls only deflated slightly, in accordance with the Ideal Gas Law.

 

[JimmyJabroni]

I don't think it speaks of bias at all. I can't remember which shoe I tied first this morning, but I know I tied them.

When you use one of two nearly identical tools, I don't find it all that far fetched for one to not have a clear reccolection of which one he used.

Do you find it likely that the pats submitted balls pre-inspection at 12.9 psi, when they are clear that they inflate to 12.5? And, do you find it likely that the Colts submit at 13.4 psi, while they report 13.0?

Wait a minute - Walt Anderson said that "to the best of his recollection" he used the logo gauge pregame. It's on page 52 of the Wells Report.

The Wells Report concludes otherwise, for no other reason than it supports their overall conclusion that the balls were tampered with. It's dismissing the evidence because it doesn't support what you want it to support. The two gauges look entirely different. Not only does one have a huge logo on it, it also has a needle that is bent about 45 degrees. If a guy says "to the best of my recollection" he used that gauge, then you go with that. Otherwise you have to throw out all his other recollections and his other evidence, which includes all the pregame measurements. You can't pick and choose the facts of a case.

And if you concede that Anderson used the logo gauge pregame, as he recollects he did, then the disparity in psi is all explainable and predictable by the Ideal Gas Law.

Yeah I don't get this as well. It really makes zero sense to ignore the best recollection of Walt Anderson except for the fact that doing so allows them to find guilt based on assumptions they already made. It really looks similar to what a prosecutor would do who was trying to win at all costs, overlooking any evidence which would not allow them to make a conviction.

 

[12punch]

I don't think it speaks of bias at all. I can't remember which shoe I tied first this morning, but I know I tied them.

When you use one of two nearly identical tools, I don't find it all that far fetched for one to not have a clear reccolection of which one he used.

Do you find it likely that the pats submitted balls pre-inspection at 12.9 psi, when they are clear that they inflate to 12.5? And, do you find it likely that the Colts submit at 13.4 psi, while they report 13.0?

Wait a minute - Walt Anderson said that "to the best of his recollection" he used the logo gauge pregame. It's on page 52 of the Wells Report.The Wells Report concludes otherwise, for no other reason than it supports their overall conclusion that the balls were tampered with. It's dismissing the evidence because it doesn't support what you want it to support. The two gauges look entirely different. Not only does one have a huge logo on it, it also has a needle that is bent about 45 degrees. If a guy says "to the best of my recollection" he used that gauge, then you go with that. Otherwise you have to throw out all his other recollections and his other evidence, which includes all the pregame measurements. You can't pick and choose the facts of a case.

Do you find it likely that the pats submitted balls pre-inspection at 12.9 psi, when they are clear that they inflate to 12.5? And, do you find it likely that the Colts submit at 13.4 psi, while they report 13.0?

Not sure where you are going with this. The Pats balls were gauged at 12.5 pregame, and the Colts were around 13.0. Of course the dimwit ref didn't write them down, so we have to take his word for it.But if you assume the logo gauge was used pregame, which as mentioned is what the ref remembers using "to the best of his recollection", then by comparing to the logo gauge readings at halftime the Pats balls only deflated slightly, in accordance with the Ideal Gas Law.

I don't know why Walt Anderson gets ripped for getting caught in the middle of this.

There was no procedure to log pregame balls, so why expect him to do it?

 

[GrandpaRox]

What happens if the NFL actually does have something legit, now that Kraft has doubled down on BB's press conference?

This has turned into a steel cage death match. Someone's going down, hard. If the Pats were innocent, the NFL is going to have a huge black eye and it could cost a few people their jobs, Goodell included. If the Pats tamper with the balls, then legacies of Brady and Belichik are tarnished severely, to the point where I could even foresee them not being inducted into the Hall of Fame. The stakes couldn't get much higher.

So from your own words here after the Pats have tampered with the balls you are now spinning the NFL having the black eye etc etc etc spin spin etc?

There's always a way out eh.

Reading comprehension - not your strong suit is it? Where in that statement is it said that if the Pats tampered with balls the NFL couldn't be criticized for their handling of the affair? It's always so frustratingly black and white with you.

Go back to the FFA, you fit in perfectly there.

 

[Bayhawks]

I don't think it speaks of bias at all. I can't remember which shoe I tied first this morning, but I know I tied them.

When you use one of two nearly identical tools, I don't find it all that far fetched for one to not have a clear reccolection of which one he used.

Do you find it likely that the pats submitted balls pre-inspection at 12.9 psi, when they are clear that they inflate to 12.5? And, do you find it likely that the Colts submit at 13.4 psi, while they report 13.0?

Wait a minute - Walt Anderson said that "to the best of his recollection" he used the logo gauge pregame. It's on page 52 of the Wells Report.The Wells Report concludes otherwise, for no other reason than it supports their overall conclusion that the balls were tampered with. It's dismissing the evidence because it doesn't support what you want it to support. The two gauges look entirely different. Not only does one have a huge logo on it, it also has a needle that is bent about 45 degrees. If a guy says "to the best of my recollection" he used that gauge, then you go with that. Otherwise you have to throw out all his other recollections and his other evidence, which includes all the pregame measurements. You can't pick and choose the facts of a case.

Do you find it likely that the pats submitted balls pre-inspection at 12.9 psi, when they are clear that they inflate to 12.5? And, do you find it likely that the Colts submit at 13.4 psi, while they report 13.0?

Not sure where you are going with this. The Pats balls were gauged at 12.5 pregame, and the Colts were around 13.0. Of course the dimwit ref didn't write them down, so we have to take his word for it.But if you assume the logo gauge was used pregame, which as mentioned is what the ref remembers using "to the best of his recollection", then by comparing to the logo gauge readings at halftime the Pats balls only deflated slightly, in accordance with the Ideal Gas Law.

I think what he's saying is that Anderson was positive about the PSI of the 2 sets of balls, & "to the best of his recollection" used the logo gauge. However since the logo gauge seemed to measure the PSI higher, that means the NE balls would have actually been 12.9, not 12.5. Since we know (NE & Brady told us) that NE submits the balls at 12.5, he is reasoning that Anderson must have "recollected" wrong about which gauge he used.

 

[General Tso]

What happens if the NFL actually does have something legit, now that Kraft has doubled down on BB's press conference?

This has turned into a steel cage death match. Someone's going down, hard. If the Pats were innocent, the NFL is going to have a huge black eye and it could cost a few people their jobs, Goodell included. If the Pats tamper with the balls, then legacies of Brady and Belichik are tarnished severely, to the point where I could even foresee them not being inducted into the Hall of Fame. The stakes couldn't get much higher.

So from your own words here after the Pats have tampered with the balls you are now spinning the NFL having the black eye etc etc etc spin spin etc?

There's always a way out eh.

Reading comprehension - not your strong suit is it? Where in that statement is it said that if the Pats tampered with balls the NFL couldn't be criticized for their handling of the affair? It's always so frustratingly black and white with you.

Go back to the FFA, you fit in perfectly there.

No, I think I'll stay here and pound you trolls into the turf.

 

[sho nuff]

I'm in awe at the stupidity of Goodell. What a major screw up on his part. This is exactly what I meant about the horrible way the NFL handled this, from start to finish. The guy steps all over the CBA and makes up the rules as he goes along. "Commissioner the only one who can hand down discipline for conduct detrimental? Ahh, who cares. I'll just have Troy hand down the discipline and then I'll be able to hear the appeal." The NFL is going to get their ### reamed on this one, as they should. You know it's bad when the entire focus of the Players Union appeal is on one issue and one issue only.

The makes up things as he goes line is just tired and old.

He takes each case on its own merit...something he should do.

They can't have a rule and specific mandatory fine or punishment for every little thing idiots will do in this league.

NFL is not going to get reamed on this...

Come on dude. You are smarter than that. Have you not been paying attention? Ray Rice? AP? Vilma? Read all the lies thatTroy Vincent said to Adrian Peterson. When AP confronted him on them, he lied again. And then AP turned over the conversation that he recorded on his cell phone. Dead to rights.You can hate the Patriots and despise their cheating ways. I totally get this, and to a point I share in the sentiment. But you cannot defend the actions of the NFL with the players the last few years. It's ludicrous.

I have been...he does not take every case the exact same way and a lot of it pisses people off.

He should take each case on its own and weight everything out.

The criticism that he uses public opinion to determine things is about the only legit thing.

I don't hate the Patriots...you all have to get that arrogant attitude that anyone who believes they cheat just hates them.

I can defend quite a bit of the NFL actions...seems people who keep breaking rules have the most problems with how the NFL handles them.

Coming from the guy who has posted that much in here...this is hilarious.

 

[bostonfred]

So here's where I am right now: the Patriots context report does create reasonable doubt. There is a plausible explanation for everything.

That being said, reasonable doubt is not the standard required... I still think its more probable than not that they did this. Here's how I get there:

1) Colts said it would happen. That, IMO,sets the context for everything else, and that's not something the Pats had an answer for.

2) I can't get over McNally taking the balls into the bathroom. I'm sorry, that bit doesn't stand to reason for me.

3) scientific evidence. While the pressure variances can be explained, it requires some events that I find unlikely...I buy the Wells report about which gauge was used, rather than the Pats. It makes sense to me that the most accurate gauge was used pre-game...I find it implausible that the high-gauge was used because that would mean the Pats initially submit balls at 13.0 psi, which they said they don't do.

4) Patriots/Brady impeding the investigation. If they had nothing to hide, they would have launched their own internal investigation and been on the lead of this.

5) past history of skirting the roles. No need to go into this further.

Bottom line -Pats have a story for every point, sure. Put it all together, and man it doesn't paint a rosy picture.

1) the weather was cold. its not a hard thing to predict that the psi would drop. nobody expected this to blow up like this, they were just screwing with bb/Brady2) it can't really be premeditated urination, since that was not the normal process for the pats to carry their own balls out. There was barely enough time to handle each football and for what, a small fraction of a psi?

3) this is actually the most compelling pro patriot point to me. I simply can't picture how our why they would have done this on that specific game day and had such a small difference between the expected psi and the actual. it's a huge risk to take to deflate some but not all of the balls by a fraction of a psi. How much do you think they would have to have taken out of each ball? .2 psi? which is more likely, that they have a guy set the balls to 12.5, then trick the reefs into letting them carry the balls to the field, sneak the balls into a bathroom in a hallway with video cameras, being the balls into a stall with you, rapidly deflate each ball in less than two minutes when it was twenty minutes to game time and there was no need to hurry nearly that much, or... the balls started out at or around 12.5, nobody checked that close and the guys took ####ty measurements, and a fat guy with twenty minutes to get to the field stopped off to pee before going outside.

4) they did launch their own internal investigation, the week of the superbowl, and held a press conference. and they cooperated with a three month investigation into the psi of footballs on a cold wet day. if you're looking at the text message thing and the fifth interview that was only wells' second interview, i can understand being suspicious, but i think it's every bit as likely if not more, that these interviews already seemed heavily slanted, the pats thought they had won, and thought wells was scrounging for something to hang them on. At some point they said enough is enough. Little did they know that would be used against them like it was.

5) actually that past history of getting hit with the heaviest penalty in league history for videotaping something that's legal to videotape but the guy was standing in the wrong spot cuts both ways. You see it as evidence that the pats engage in dastardly acts like standing here instead of there and see how they might also extract a tiny amount of air out of each ball in a bathroom on a day when the weather would do much more. I see it as evidence that Goodell flipped out on the pats once before, when people were imagining that they were the only team in NFL history to videotape signals and I wonder what else they videotaped and all kinds of scandalous innuendo, and caved to public opinion by putting the hammer down over a relative technicality. I was over that, and I think the parts were, too, since the league has dropped huge penalties on other teams too. but after seeing the penalty in this case, and the way the league handled it, and everything coming up bad for the pats, I'm more irritated than ever about the way the league handled spygate and let belichick and Brady hang in the breeze twice now while the crowd noise pumpers and ball heaters of the world get nothing.

 

[12punch]

Apparently, this is Brady's appeal letter

Somebody read it and tell me if I should read it

https://nflpaweb.blob.core.windows.net/media/Default/PDFs/Media%20Resources/Brady_Appeal_Letter.pdf

 

[General Tso]

I repeat my question to the Pats haters:

Regarding Spygate and the horror of videotaping defensive calls 30 feet from the legal area...

What is worse - a team videotaping defensive signals or a team videotaping a walkthrough of practice? And for the sake of this hypothetical let's assume that the team's coaching staff denies looking at the tape of the walk-through. Which is worse?

 

[GrandpaRox]

Not much hope for Tom Brady in appeal

18minutes ago

• Lester Munson, Legal Analyst

A couple of moves Thursday by the NFL Players Association and the New England Patriots will keep the Deflategate discussion front and center for the league and fans for some time. Late Thursday afternoon, quarterback Tom Brady and the NFLPA filed an appeal of a four-game suspension handed down by the league after an investigator concluded Brady had a role in deflating footballs used in the AFC Championship Game against the Indianapolis Colts. A few hours earlier, the Patriots issued a point-by-point rebuttal of the NFL's findings.The actions raise significant questions about the investigation, the team's reaction, the possibility of litigation and Brady's attempt to preserve his legacy:

Q: Can Brady win a reduction in the suspension or eliminate the suspension entirely?

A: No. The evidence gathered by attorney Ted Wells for the NFL's investigation is clear and convincing.

If the arbitrator had the power to actually increase a penalty, well, Brady and the NFLPA might not have filed an appeal.

more http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/12888612/tom-brady-nflpa-cannot-win-appeal-filed-deflategate

As expected, Pats* fans are in full-on conspiracy mode about this outlet/article/writer as well.</p>

I think the only chance Brady has for a reduction is if he can construct a convincing argument explaining why he didn't hand over his phone. If he can, he maybe gets a game taken off. My prediction is that the suspension holds at 4 games.

Would you hand over your phone to ANYONE?

No one gets my phone and that includes family.

You are a strange man.

 

[General Tso]

Apparently, this is Brady's appeal letter

Somebody read it and tell me if I should read it

https://nflpaweb.blob.core.windows.net/media/Default/PDFs/Media%20Resources/Brady_Appeal_Letter.pdf

Read it just for footnote 1 at the bottom of the first page.

 

[sho nuff]

I repeat my question to the Pats haters:

Regarding Spygate and the horror of videotaping defensive calls 30 feet from the legal area...

What is worse - a team videotaping defensive signals or a team videotaping a walkthrough of practice? And for the sake of this hypothetical let's assume that the team's coaching staff denies looking at the tape of the walk-through. Which is worse?

Both suck and still against the rules no matter is you watch the tape or not...like getting caught with a cheat sheet for a test but you didn't use it.

 

[12punch]

The NFL is about to be destroyed and this will be the end of Goodell.

31/32 owners appear to disagree.

So you know whats going on behind the scenes?

speaking of which, owners meeting comin' up next week

kraft gonna knock sumbuddy owt!

 

[amnesiac]

I don't think it speaks of bias at all. I can't remember which shoe I tied first this morning, but I know I tied them.

When you use one of two nearly identical tools, I don't find it all that far fetched for one to not have a clear reccolection of which one he used.

Do you find it likely that the pats submitted balls pre-inspection at 12.9 psi, when they are clear that they inflate to 12.5? And, do you find it likely that the Colts submit at 13.4 psi, while they report 13.0?

Wait a minute - Walt Anderson said that "to the best of his recollection" he used the logo gauge pregame. It's on page 52 of the Wells Report.The Wells Report concludes otherwise, for no other reason than it supports their overall conclusion that the balls were tampered with. It's dismissing the evidence because it doesn't support what you want it to support. The two gauges look entirely different. Not only does one have a huge logo on it, it also has a needle that is bent about 45 degrees. If a guy says "to the best of my recollection" he used that gauge, then you go with that. Otherwise you have to throw out all his other recollections and his other evidence, which includes all the pregame measurements. You can't pick and choose the facts of a case.

Do you find it likely that the pats submitted balls pre-inspection at 12.9 psi, when they are clear that they inflate to 12.5? And, do you find it likely that the Colts submit at 13.4 psi, while they report 13.0?

Not sure where you are going with this. The Pats balls were gauged at 12.5 pregame, and the Colts were around 13.0. Of course the dimwit ref didn't write them down, so we have to take his word for it.But if you assume the logo gauge was used pregame, which as mentioned is what the ref remembers using "to the best of his recollection", then by comparing to the logo gauge readings at halftime the Pats balls only deflated slightly, in accordance with the Ideal Gas Law.

I think what he's saying is that Anderson was positive about the PSI of the 2 sets of balls, & "to the best of his recollection" used the logo gauge. However since the logo gauge seemed to measure the PSI higher, that means the NE balls would have actually been 12.9, not 12.5. Since we know (NE & Brady told us) that NE submits the balls at 12.5, he is reasoning that Anderson must have "recollected" wrong about which gauge he used.

i just want to point out that a lot of you are assuming that the Pats and Colts gauges are properly calibrated. so that is another variable.

to me there are too many variables to utilize any of the readings to make any conclusions.

 

[12punch]

Apparently, this is Brady's appeal letter

Somebody read it and tell me if I should read it

https://nflpaweb.blob.core.windows.net/media/Default/PDFs/Media%20Resources/Brady_Appeal_Letter.pdf

Read it just for footnote 1 at the bottom of the first page.

lolz

love that letter -- team brady pushin' hard for justice

 

[12punch]

WAT

dude's no stranger to investigations

 

[12punch]

pats fans gettin' salty

Reminder once again that Troy Vincent was once the frontrunner to take over as executive director of the NFLPA until he came under federal investigation not once but twice in his capacity as NFLPA president, once for illegally disclosing details about players' contracts with their agents to his consulting firm for personal gain, and again for secretly meeting with Goodell allegedly to collude against the players by trading a softer collective bargaining stance toward the owners in return for assistance in advancing his own career in the NFLPA. He does not deny either the illegally disclosed contracts (which he claims were an accident) or the secret meeting with Goodell (which he and Goodell claim was totally above board and nothing untoward happened, and I'm sure has absolutely nothing to do with his immediate hiring by Goodell into a cushy NFL position and rapid advancement in the ranks of NFL executives right after he was voted out of his union position for these controversies).

 

[Old Smiley]

pats fans gettin' salty

Reminder once again that Troy Vincent was once the frontrunner to take over as executive director of the NFLPA until he came under federal investigation not once but twice in his capacity as NFLPA president, once for illegally disclosing details about players' contracts with their agents to his consulting firm for personal gain, and again for secretly meeting with Goodell allegedly to collude against the players by trading a softer collective bargaining stance toward the owners in return for assistance in advancing his own career in the NFLPA. He does not deny either the illegally disclosed contracts (which he claims were an accident) or the secret meeting with Goodell (which he and Goodell claim was totally above board and nothing untoward happened, and I'm sure has absolutely nothing to do with his immediate hiring by Goodell into a cushy NFL position and rapid advancement in the ranks of NFL executives right after he was voted out of his union position for these controversies).

Ladies and gentlemen, your National Football League. I got your "shield" right here.

 

[12punch]

Stephanie Stradley

Though the Goodell is entitled to hear the appeal under the CBA, he may refer it to one of his other inside-the-NFL minions. He likely will resist sending it to an outside the NFL source because he usually loses when that happens.

I believe that the Wells Report is vulnerable if a truly outside source looks at its content. I am guessing Kessler already has the transcript of Wells' remarks as an exhibit, because that defensive presser seemed good for PR points but not so good if you are still in the midst of the discipline process and resolution.

If after appeal, Brady doesn't want to live with the result, the NFLPA may file an application to vacate the result on Brady's behalf.

Theoretically, Brady could go the Saints Jonathan Vilma approach and file a collection of defamation claims. (He had 11 claims for relief in his original claim). Basically, Vilma's lawyers cherry picked all the grandstanding things that were said publicly about him that were untrue, and argued the alternative view in the complaint.

It seems like the discussions of Deflategate have tended to be less inflammatory than Bountygate statements, and I think maybe that is one thing that the NFL has learned from that.

It never got to a final adjudication but did put pressure on the league to reverse course. They certainly didn't want to go too far into discovery.

There are plenty of reasons why a person who believes they were legitimately defamed would not file such a claim. Defamation cases by public figures are hard to win. They are expensive, time consuming, unpredictable, and privacy invading. And I don't even think Tom Brady has enough money to want to get into a civil lawsuit with the NFL, which has enough money they should be a part of the U.S. Treasury.

 

[12punch]

Stephanie Stradley

Will the Patriots Contest the Punishment?

I can't say that I understand why the Patriots were punished exactly the way they were. Sure did look like they did a ton of cooperation, and look what that got them.

The Saints ownership cooperated completely, did not contest the punishments, and it did them no good at all. In fact, there was an option for the punishment to be reduced with team cooperation. That they could get a draft pick back if team cooperated and educated their players on bounties. Given these quotes, it sounds like Roger Goodell forgot he dangled that carrot.

Team cooperation has been proven not to work in reducing sanctions. The NFL can either ignore what cooperation was done, or say it wasn't enough. It certainly didn't get the Saints their draft pick back. And, now the NFL is saying that findings from years ago will be used for future punishments.

 

[12punch]

Where the Wells Report Goes Wrong.

Wells' report illustrates that. Much of it is written in a way that minimizes NFL issues, issues with the completeness of the evidence, and makes big, important inferences in ways that consistently don't favor the Patriots.

It reads like advocacy. Like what a prosecutor might put together. Or like some message board guy who only puts facts together that support his point of view.

As an outsider, I tend to look at both sides of an argument, and in my mind, ask myself which one I'd feel more comfortable arguing. Even before the Patriots rebuttal came out, as you can see in our above conversation, I would not have been comfortable supporting its conclusions.

The Patriots Context report contains a lot of contextual detail for the things in the Wells Report that "looks bad." Just because the explanations of things are odd or inconsistent in small details, doesn't mean that they are lies. The truth is often odd and people's recollection of events that they thought were inconsequential at the time are usually not the Gods-eye truth.

It is extraordinarily difficult to prove a negative. The Patriots Context report does its best to demonstrate a reasonable explanation of events. It rings more true to me as someone who has done various investigations and seen how things work in the NFL up close.

Stephanie Stradley

 

[12punch]

Public Discourse on Deflategate.

I've said some things about this on Twitter (@StephStradley), and the common response is lol how can you believe this, that, or the other thing. Most of those comments come from people who haven't read either report and are relying on media headlines on this.

Twitter is far better about making ball jokes than having nuanced discussions about emotional, pre-judged topics with people who haven't read all the information.

This isn't surprising because the fanbases of 31 teams would benefit if the Patriots collapsed into a flaming chowdah of suckage.

I've written on NFL discipline from the beginning of Goodell's time as commisioner, and it is remarkable how public reporting of things is often very different than the things you see in the actual documents.

One way or another, I got my popcorn.

 

[12punch]

Reason why the Patriots are concerned about bias is all the Kensil talk. Wells report blows off issues of bias and sting in a paragraph and a footnote. Kensil is in the midst of all of this. Allegedly judges the Patriots at the half. Chooses not to inform both teams before the game of the allegations even though warnings very common. Then, the balls at the half are blown up to what they said was 13, but likely ended up beyond 13.5ish given post-game measurements (as Wells Report says, "within a permissible level" tho one was 13.6 post game) without informing the Patriots that this is what was done, and despite allegedly the ref knowing that the Patriots preferred them at 12.5. !!!Why isn't this a bigger deal from an integrity standpoint?!!!! Refs altered the balls, didn't inform Patriots that they blew them up to beyond max, and Kensil says something at the sideline that the report leaves out. Seems to me that all the measurement stuff is totally hard to put stock in given just basic measurement/custody issues. Like after the game, why did they only measure 4 balls? They had plenty of time.

Stephanie Stradley Chase • 3 days ago 1) The thing is, what constitutes "full cooperation?" I think the NFL often moves the goal line on this stuff. I've done investigations. Brady/Patriots/minions did a bleep ton of cooperation, like beyond subpoena amounts. Would providing Yee print outs of all the minion texts matter? If cooperation means do whatever we say no matter how unreasonable and if we think you are lying that is considered non-cooperative, well whether you cooperate or not you are pretty much screwed. Patriots cooperated: screwed. Saints cooperated: screwed.

Stephanie Stradley sacramento gold miners • 2 days ago Why? What is the standard of "full cooperation" in the CBA context? It is unclear and that is why people have lawyers. We haven't seen the original request for his phone information, though Yee says that is it was overly broad. He cooperated all day. Typically, employers do not have access to phones, and that Brady didn't want to give it to investigators (who should not have been trusted given the marginally relevant embarrassing things they cherry picked and shared), why should that be held against him? He answered questions all day. Does full cooperation mean he needs to share his personal computer, his bank statements? Theoretically, they could be relevant.

We don't know what the investigators goal line is for full cooperation, but I can tell you that what the Patriots offered and gave is more cooperation than you get in most employment/investigation contexts. It is totally appropriate to draw lines. Yee also suggested that even if he went through the phone to print texts, maybe that limited info given would have been held against Brady too. Who knows?

There's cooperation and then there's fishing expeditions. Where do you draw the line? Usually, employers don't get private phone info, especially in the union context.

If I were not a lawyer, or I did not read the report and only relied on summaries by other people who believe everything they read about people accused of things, I may have a different view.

http://www.footballperspective.com/thoughts-on-tom-bradys-deflategate-punishment/

 

[Run It Up]

Good stuff

Also, C-c-c-combo Breaker

 

[12punch]

I just took down all my brady posters and put up Stephanie Stradley posters

You are guilty. Here's your punishment.

 

[12punch]

Stephanie Stradley @StephStradley · 24m 24 minutes ago
Awesome: ham, onion, pineapple, jalapeño pizza

#soulmate

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Apparently, this is Brady's appeal letter

Somebody read it and tell me if I should read it

https://nflpaweb.blob.core.windows.net/media/Default/PDFs/Media%20Resources/Brady_Appeal_Letter.pdf

Read it just for footnote 1 at the bottom of the first page.

I'm a salty hater, and even I appreciated that one. The whole letter is actually pretty delicious, including "Very truly yours" which reads like the lawyer version of "Yours in Christ." Again, for the record, I fully support the NFL in this. But you just have to appreciate a good #####y letter.

 

[Run It Up]

Where'd you go Moleculo?

If you're on the side of science, it really comes down to whether you believe the Exponent report is infallible, or if all the critics are just fronting.

You seem more well versed in matters of physics than myself, and we've gone back and forth on a couple of the specifics but it really does come down to you finding no fault in the Exponent report, which I find naive. My bias being obvious.

 

[12punch]

"Think of the press as a great keyboard on which the government can play.”
― Joseph Goebbels

 

[12punch]

loooooooooool nfl !!!

dat salt!!

 

[12punch]

chris russo = shark pool incarnate

there is no possible way he isn't reading and posting in this thread

 

[GoBirds]

What happens if the NFL actually does have something legit, now that Kraft has doubled down on BB's press conference?

This has turned into a steel cage death match. Someone's going down, hard. If the Pats were innocent, the NFL is going to have a huge black eye and it could cost a few people their jobs, Goodell included. If the Pats tamper with the balls, then legacies of Brady and Belichik are tarnished severely, to the point where I could even foresee them not being inducted into the Hall of Fame. The stakes couldn't get much higher.

So from your own words here after the Pats have tampered with the balls you are now spinning the NFL having the black eye etc etc etc spin spin etc?There's always a way out eh.

Reading comprehension - not your strong suit is it? Where in that statement is it said that if the Pats tampered with balls the NFL couldn't be criticized for their handling of the affair? It's always so frustratingly black and white with you.

Go back to the FFA, you fit in perfectly there.

No, I think I'll stay here and pound you trolls into the turf.

....or just look like a complete clown.

*

 

[GoBirds]

I repeat my question to the Pats haters:

Regarding Spygate and the horror of videotaping defensive calls 30 feet from the legal area...

What is worse - a team videotaping defensive signals or a team videotaping a walkthrough of practice? And for the sake of this hypothetical let's assume that the team's coaching staff denies looking at the tape of the walk-through. Which is worse?

Both suck and still against the rules no matter is you watch the tape or not...like getting caught with a cheat sheet for a test but you didn't use it.

Exactly....instead of downplaying the cheating that occurred just play by the rules and you don't have to make all the excuses or come up with crazy hypotheticals.

 

[GoBirds]

Unless the NFL comes out with some compelling evidence quickly, this thing is over. What Belichik did today was slap a beat down on the NFL and the media the likes of which I've never seen. If this were a prize fight the refs would have stepped in and put a stop to it.

The NFL has knowingly allowed a franchise, a fan base, it's greatest coach, and maybe it's greatest quarterback - to be dragged through the mud for 6 days while they should be preparing for a Superbowl. After what Belichik did today, Goodell has to respond with something. The fact that he hasn't seems to point to what I've suspected all along - that the NFL has nothing here, and that once again Roger Goodell is showing how incompetent and incapable he is - hopefully for the last time.

Update?

 

[AngryPatriot]

Unless the NFL comes out with some compelling evidence quickly, this thing is over. What Belichik did today was slap a beat down on the NFL and the media the likes of which I've never seen. If this were a prize fight the refs would have stepped in and put a stop to it.

The NFL has knowingly allowed a franchise, a fan base, it's greatest coach, and maybe it's greatest quarterback - to be dragged through the mud for 6 days while they should be preparing for a Superbowl. After what Belichik did today, Goodell has to respond with something. The fact that he hasn't seems to point to what I've suspected all along - that the NFL has nothing here, and that once again Roger Goodell is showing how incompetent and incapable he is - hopefully for the last time.

Update?

Situation is the same, stay tuned.

 

[AhrnCityPahnder]

There's a lot of hate out there for Goodell, but he didn't hit his kid, didn't hit his wife, didn't get arrested, didn't fail a drug test, and didn't cheat. Maybe some of that hate should be saved for the guys who did.

It's not an exclusionary exercise.

One can think these players are knuckleheads, cheaters, criminals, or whatever -- while at the same time thinking Goddell is a clueless rube flying by the seat of his pants and arbitrarily dispensing fines and punishments.

 

[JIslander]

Unless the NFL comes out with some compelling evidence quickly, this thing is over. What Belichik did today was slap a beat down on the NFL and the media the likes of which I've never seen. If this were a prize fight the refs would have stepped in and put a stop to it.

The NFL has knowingly allowed a franchise, a fan base, it's greatest coach, and maybe it's greatest quarterback - to be dragged through the mud for 6 days while they should be preparing for a Superbowl. After what Belichik did today, Goodell has to respond with something. The fact that he hasn't seems to point to what I've suspected all along - that the NFL has nothing here, and that once again Roger Goodell is showing how incompetent and incapable he is - hopefully for the last time.

Update?

Situation is the same, stay tuned.

Well, Goodell has responded and the Patriots are now dragging this through a lot more mud...

 

[moleculo]

Where'd you go Moleculo?

If you're on the side of science, it really comes down to whether you believe the Exponent report is infallible, or if all the critics are just fronting.

You seem more well versed in matters of physics than myself, and we've gone back and forth on a couple of the specifics but it really does come down to you finding no fault in the Exponent report, which I find naive. My bias being obvious.

I'm traveling right now and have to type everything on my phone...also I can't have the exponent report or the pats context reports open at the same time as FBG, so its tough to do a point-by-point breakdown.In short, I have not found fault with the exponent report. Every criticism I have read relies on more assumptions than Exponents, and those assumptions are usually more farfetched.

 

[alvarndc]

I haven't read all 206 pages of this thread, so forgive me if someone has made this point before. But is seems to me that the real issue is not that Brady and the Patriots (and probably Bellichek) broke an obscure rule, or even that they got caught.

The real issue is that they put themselves above the league by refusing to cooperate with a good faith investigation. You cannot claim "they didn't prove anything" and simultaneously obstruct the investigation. We will probably never know, but there is certainly reason to suspect this episode is merely the tip of the iceberg.

Personally, I would love to see just one thing on Brady's cell phone - who was the NEXT person he called AFTER he called the ball dudes at 7am. If it was Bellichek, that puts a whole different perspective on this, doesn't it?

So when the league gives Brady assurances of privacy protection and he still refuses to hand over his cell phone records, or when the Patriots organization does not allow the league a second interview with a principal party - well, those are big red flags. And when Brady says he doesn't know certain people and the phone records which ARE available show that he is calling them at 7am... I think most reasonable people recognize he is lying his ### off.

It is an imperfect analogy, but let's say the IRS had a question about how much any of us had paid in taxes. Does anyone really think we could tell them we are not going to share the relevant records without serious repercussions.

The coverup is usually worse than the crime - see Nixon, Clinton (both of them), Bonds, ARod, Lance Armstrong et al. Not particularly good company for Brady to be associated with going forward.

And that goes double for those who are seen (rightly or wrongly) as repeat offenders, as many see the Patriots due to their past history.

I hope the league has the spine to tell Brady and his lawyers to take a hike, and that they have no right to an appeal until and unless they comply with the reasonable requests of an investigation. And if they don't like it, go to court - where they will be compelled to testify under oath under threat of perjury, and will be obligated to hand over all of his electronic and phone records in the discovery phase. They have NO leg to stand on.

 

[moleculo]

Do you find it likely that the pats submitted balls pre-inspection at 12.9 psi, when they are clear that they inflate to 12.5? And, do you find it likely that the Colts submit at 13.4 psi, while they report 13.0?

Not sure where you are going with this. The Pats balls were gauged at 12.5 pregame, and the Colts were around 13.0. Of course the dimwit ref didn't write them down, so we have to take his word for it.But if you assume the logo gauge was used pregame, which as mentioned is what the ref remembers using "to the best of his recollection", then by comparing to the logo gauge readings at halftime the Pats balls only deflated slightly, in accordance with the Ideal Gas Law.

I'm sorry, like I said I'm traveling and got my numbers mixed up...my overall point remains however.Let's accept the refs statement that the pats balls were all 12.5+/-, and the colts 13.0+/-, pre-inspection. If he used the gauge measuring high as he reccolected, that means the Pats balls were actually 12.1 and the Colts balls were 12.6. Neither the Pats nor the Colts said that is their standard when interviewed by Wells.

That leaves 4 possibilities:

1) the Colts and Patriots both lied WRT their pre-game ball preparation process and they both submit balls almost exactly 0.4 psi lower than they claimed.

2) both the Pats and Colts pressure gauges were almost exactly off by -0.4 psi.

3) the referee misremembered which one of two nearly identical gauges was used.

4) the ref used one gauge to measure Colts balls, another to measure the Pats. I think this is the theory in the Pats context report...I haven't had a chance to break down why they think this is the case.

Exponent/Wells concluded 3 is most likely and I agree.

Like I said earlier -it doesn't clear the pats beyond reasonable doubt but that's not the standard we are looking at here.

Further, per the exponent report, it doesn't matter anyways. Assuming the high gauge for initial measurements would show the Pats are in the clear if and only if all 11 Patriots balls could be gauged twice within 2 minutes of coming indoors. This is especially implausible when you find it took ~4 min just to get the balls to the locker room and set up the measurement process.

 

[bostonfred]

Further, per the exponent report, it doesn't matter anyways. Assuming the high gauge for initial measurements would show the Pats are in the clear if and only if all 11 Patriots balls could be gauged twice within 2 minutes of coming indoors. This is especially implausible when you find it took ~4 min just to get the balls to the locker room and set up the measurement process.

this seems inconsistent with the theory that the same balls were deflated in less time in a men's room.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Further, per the exponent report, it doesn't matter anyways. Assuming the high gauge for initial measurements would show the Pats are in the clear if and only if all 11 Patriots balls could be gauged twice within 2 minutes of coming indoors. This is especially implausible when you find it took ~4 min just to get the balls to the locker room and set up the measurement process.

this seems inconsistent with the theory that the same balls were deflated in less time in a men's room.

Would be way faster to deflate. They wouldn't even gauge them, it would just be a quick count. They are also practiced at it and expediency is key.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

I think most reasonable people recognize he is lying his ### off.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Unless the NFL comes out with some compelling evidence quickly, this thing is over. What Belichik did today was slap a beat down on the NFL and the media the likes of which I've never seen. If this were a prize fight the refs would have stepped in and put a stop to it.

The NFL has knowingly allowed a franchise, a fan base, it's greatest coach, and maybe it's greatest quarterback - to be dragged through the mud for 6 days while they should be preparing for a Superbowl. After what Belichik did today, Goodell has to respond with something. The fact that he hasn't seems to point to what I've suspected all along - that the NFL has nothing here, and that once again Roger Goodell is showing how incompetent and incapable he is - hopefully for the last time.

Update?

He provided an update a bunch of pages ago and was pretty cool about it. He's obviously a Pats fan and is sticking up for them on procedural grounds. You can concede that Brady probably cheated and simultaneously think that the league is screwing this up -- I don't, but it's a reasonable position.