Patriots being investigated after Colts game (3 Viewers)

[General Tso]

Unless the NFL comes out with some compelling evidence quickly, this thing is over. What Belichik did today was slap a beat down on the NFL and the media the likes of which I've never seen. If this were a prize fight the refs would have stepped in and put a stop to it.

The NFL has knowingly allowed a franchise, a fan base, it's greatest coach, and maybe it's greatest quarterback - to be dragged through the mud for 6 days while they should be preparing for a Superbowl. After what Belichik did today, Goodell has to respond with something. The fact that he hasn't seems to point to what I've suspected all along - that the NFL has nothing here, and that once again Roger Goodell is showing how incompetent and incapable he is - hopefully for the last time.

Update?

He provided an update a bunch of pages ago and was pretty cool about it. He's obviously a Pats fan and is sticking up for them on procedural grounds. You can concede that Brady probably cheated and simultaneously think that the league is screwing this up -- I don't, but it's a reasonable position.

Thank you Ivan. This guy brings nothing to the Shark Pool - never has - never will. Really wish he would just go away and find another message board.

I repeat my question to the Pats haters:

Regarding Spygate and the horror of videotaping defensive calls 30 feet from the legal area...

What is worse - a team videotaping defensive signals or a team videotaping a walkthrough of practice? And for the sake of this hypothetical let's assume that the team's coaching staff denies looking at the tape of the walk-through. Which is worse?

Both suck and still against the rules no matter is you watch the tape or not...like getting caught with a cheat sheet for a test but you didn't use it.

Exactly....instead of downplaying the cheating that occurred just play by the rules and you don't have to make all the excuses or come up with crazy hypotheticals.

It's not a crazy hypothetical. It actually happened. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5855075

And it highlights EXACTLY one of the main points I've been trying to drive into that thick skull of yours - that the NFL has once again shown itself to be horribly incapable of administering anything close to a sound, cohesive, intelligent program related to disciplining teams in the League. The Pats get busted in Spygate for taping signals on the sidelines, when they could have just taped the signals legally by moving the camera 30 feet away, and it's the end of the world. They lose a first round pick and face the harshest punishment in history, even though they cooperate fully and acknowledge their mistake right away.

The Denver Broncos, three years later, videotape the walkthrough of a practice, don't report it right away, and get fined $50,000. No investigation. No loss of draft picks. No assumption of guilt. The Broncos are "good guys" so the League takes them at their word that they didn't view the tape and that it never happened prior to that. The story becomes such a non-issue that to this day if you mention a practice being videotaped, most people wrongly insist it was the Patriots who videotaped a walkthrough (which was soundly disproven with a front page retraction and apology by the Boston Globe) and don't even realize that the Denver Broncos are the only team that ever videotaped a walkthrough, and they got nothing more than a $50,000 fine.

And when you ask people straight up which is worse - a team videotaping defensive signals or a team videotaping a walkthrough - everyone agrees the walkthrough is more egregious. Until you bring up that the Broncos did that and the NFL let it slide, then the narrative changes to "well that's because the Broncos didn't view the tapes". And where is the proof that the Broncos didn't view the tapes? The good word of John McDaniels, who didn't report the incident for two weeks?

The bottom line here is that the NFL has an atrocious track record of handling disciplinary issues fairly and consistently. If you think for one second the new England Patriots are the only team pushing the envelop in this league then you are a naive idiot. What makes the Pats different is that they are despised so much that when they do get caught the League throws the book at them with ridiculously extreme penalties, unfair treatment, and unconscionably unprofessional leaks designed solely to smear the reputation of the team. And they don't just issue leaks that are true - they apparently also issue leaks that are patent lies, as they did with the initial Mort Report saying the balls were deflated to 10.5. At worst the NFL didn't issue that leak (though it's hard to conceive that Mort would risk his career by lying) but still chose to remain silent and not correct it. And that leak is HUGE here. It is essentially what created the public outrage and justified the creation of the Wells investigation. In my opinion this is a level of corruption that's a much bigger issue than the videotaping of signals or deflated footballs. And this is why the Pats are going nuclear right now, and they have every right to do so.

So once again, Bird, just so you don't misrepresent my position again, I am of the the belief that the Pats likely were up to no good with deflating footballs. I think the text messages show that. But I don't see any good evidence that it was done in this particular game. I actually think a fair reading of the evidence actually proves that they likely did NOT deflate the balls during this game. The Pats are wrong and should be punished for it. But the bigger issue here is the absolutely corrupt manner in which the NFL handled this from start to finish. The League has once again shown itself to be incompetent and petty. And the public just keeps burying their head in the sand - until of course it happens to their team.

 

[12punch]

pretty much sums it up

 

[General Tso]

I haven't read all 206 pages of this thread, so forgive me if someone has made this point before. But is seems to me that the real issue is not that Brady and the Patriots (and probably Bellichek) broke an obscure rule, or even that they got caught.

The real issue is that they put themselves above the league by refusing to cooperate with a good faith investigation. You cannot claim "they didn't prove anything" and simultaneously obstruct the investigation. We will probably never know, but there is certainly reason to suspect this episode is merely the tip of the iceberg.

Personally, I would love to see just one thing on Brady's cell phone - who was the NEXT person he called AFTER he called the ball dudes at 7am. If it was Bellichek, that puts a whole different perspective on this, doesn't it?

So when the league gives Brady assurances of privacy protection and he still refuses to hand over his cell phone records, or when the Patriots organization does not allow the league a second interview with a principal party - well, those are big red flags. And when Brady says he doesn't know certain people and the phone records which ARE available show that he is calling them at 7am... I think most reasonable people recognize he is lying his ### off.

It is an imperfect analogy, but let's say the IRS had a question about how much any of us had paid in taxes. Does anyone really think we could tell them we are not going to share the relevant records without serious repercussions.

The coverup is usually worse than the crime - see Nixon, Clinton (both of them), Bonds, ARod, Lance Armstrong et al. Not particularly good company for Brady to be associated with going forward.

And that goes double for those who are seen (rightly or wrongly) as repeat offenders, as many see the Patriots due to their past history.

I hope the league has the spine to tell Brady and his lawyers to take a hike, and that they have no right to an appeal until and unless they comply with the reasonable requests of an investigation. And if they don't like it, go to court - where they will be compelled to testify under oath under threat of perjury, and will be obligated to hand over all of his electronic and phone records in the discovery phase. They have NO leg to stand on.

First off, I have to call foul here. You get to view Tom Brady's cell phone and that's the one thing you want to see???

In all seriousness though, even if he called Belichik right after Jastremski, that doesn't tell me anything. I would expect him to ball BB, whether he was innocent or guilty. In fact, I can't think of any scenario where Brady wouldn't call BB after hearing the news about the deflategate issue.

 

[12punch]

I haven't read all 206 pages of this thread, so forgive me if someone has made this point before. But is seems to me that the real issue is not that Brady and the Patriots (and probably Bellichek) broke an obscure rule, or even that they got caught.

The real issue is that they put themselves above the league by refusing to cooperate with a good faith investigation. You cannot claim "they didn't prove anything" and simultaneously obstruct the investigation. We will probably never know, but there is certainly reason to suspect this episode is merely the tip of the iceberg.

Personally, I would love to see just one thing on Brady's cell phone - who was the NEXT person he called AFTER he called the ball dudes at 7am. If it was Bellichek, that puts a whole different perspective on this, doesn't it?

nobody's even mentioned that yet, and the answer to your question is 'no'

 

[General Tso]

Do you find it likely that the pats submitted balls pre-inspection at 12.9 psi, when they are clear that they inflate to 12.5? And, do you find it likely that the Colts submit at 13.4 psi, while they report 13.0?

Not sure where you are going with this. The Pats balls were gauged at 12.5 pregame, and the Colts were around 13.0. Of course the dimwit ref didn't write them down, so we have to take his word for it.But if you assume the logo gauge was used pregame, which as mentioned is what the ref remembers using "to the best of his recollection", then by comparing to the logo gauge readings at halftime the Pats balls only deflated slightly, in accordance with the Ideal Gas Law.

I'm sorry, like I said I'm traveling and got my numbers mixed up...my overall point remains however.Let's accept the refs statement that the pats balls were all 12.5+/-, and the colts 13.0+/-, pre-inspection. If he used the gauge measuring high as he reccolected, that means the Pats balls were actually 12.1 and the Colts balls were 12.6. Neither the Pats nor the Colts said that is their standard when interviewed by Wells.

That leaves 4 possibilities:

1) the Colts and Patriots both lied WRT their pre-game ball preparation process and they both submit balls almost exactly 0.4 psi lower than they claimed.

2) both the Pats and Colts pressure gauges were almost exactly off by -0.4 psi.

3) the referee misremembered which one of two nearly identical gauges was used.

4) the ref used one gauge to measure Colts balls, another to measure the Pats. I think this is the theory in the Pats context report...I haven't had a chance to break down why they think this is the case.

Exponent/Wells concluded 3 is most likely and I agree.

Like I said earlier -it doesn't clear the pats beyond reasonable doubt but that's not the standard we are looking at here.

Further, per the exponent report, it doesn't matter anyways. Assuming the high gauge for initial measurements would show the Pats are in the clear if and only if all 11 Patriots balls could be gauged twice within 2 minutes of coming indoors. This is especially implausible when you find it took ~4 min just to get the balls to the locker room and set up the measurement process.

I don't think we're on the same page. I am saying that if the logo gauge was used during the pregame inspection, then the pats balls were calibrated to 12.5 on that gauge. And you would then compare the logo gauge readings at halftime and that would give you your true comparison without having to fool around with the numbers. And when you do that, the conclusion to be reached is that it was natural deflation.

It's amazing to me that such a fundamental fact in the case is being glossed over or outright ignored by the general public and the media. The ref says that "to the best of his recollection" he used the logo gauge to calibrate the balls pregame. This is a gauge that looks radically different than the other gauge, Not only does it have the logo on it, but more importantly the needle is bent at about a 45 degree angle. If one really wants to b fair about the evidence, one has to concede that it's more likely than not that the ref used the logo gauge pregame. And with that fact the entire case falls apart and there is no deflation.

 

[moleculo]

The Broncos front office suspended the video guy, immediately upon learning of the illegal taping. They also reported to the NFL office, and McDaniels inaction was why he was fired.

There was no cover-up, there was no proclamation of innocence. The Broncos staff acted swiftly to punish the guilty, before the NFL had to launch their own investigation.

If you want to say the punishment was different, that's fine but you have to acknowledge the two teams behaved differently.

 

[moleculo]

Do you find it likely that the pats submitted balls pre-inspection at 12.9 psi, when they are clear that they inflate to 12.5? And, do you find it likely that the Colts submit at 13.4 psi, while they report 13.0?

Not sure where you are going with this. The Pats balls were gauged at 12.5 pregame, and the Colts were around 13.0. Of course the dimwit ref didn't write them down, so we have to take his word for it.But if you assume the logo gauge was used pregame, which as mentioned is what the ref remembers using "to the best of his recollection", then by comparing to the logo gauge readings at halftime the Pats balls only deflated slightly, in accordance with the Ideal Gas Law.

I'm sorry, like I said I'm traveling and got my numbers mixed up...my overall point remains however.Let's accept the refs statement that the pats balls were all 12.5+/-, and the colts 13.0+/-, pre-inspection. If he used the gauge measuring high as he reccolected, that means the Pats balls were actually 12.1 and the Colts balls were 12.6. Neither the Pats nor the Colts said that is their standard when interviewed by Wells.

That leaves 4 possibilities:

1) the Colts and Patriots both lied WRT their pre-game ball preparation process and they both submit balls almost exactly 0.4 psi lower than they claimed.

2) both the Pats and Colts pressure gauges were almost exactly off by -0.4 psi.

3) the referee misremembered which one of two nearly identical gauges was used.

4) the ref used one gauge to measure Colts balls, another to measure the Pats. I think this is the theory in the Pats context report...I haven't had a chance to break down why they think this is the case.

Exponent/Wells concluded 3 is most likely and I agree.

Like I said earlier -it doesn't clear the pats beyond reasonable doubt but that's not the standard we are looking at here.

Further, per the exponent report, it doesn't matter anyways. Assuming the high gauge for initial measurements would show the Pats are in the clear if and only if all 11 Patriots balls could be gauged twice within 2 minutes of coming indoors. This is especially implausible when you find it took ~4 min just to get the balls to the locker room and set up the measurement process.

I don't think we're on the same page. I am saying that if the logo gauge was used during the pregame inspection, then the pats balls were calibrated to 12.5 on that gauge. And you would then compare the logo gauge readings at halftime and that would give you your true comparison without having to fool around with the numbers. And when you do that, the conclusion to be reached is that it was natural deflation.It's amazing to me that such a fundamental fact in the case is being glossed over or outright ignored by the general public and the media. The ref says that "to the best of his recollection" he used the logo gauge to calibrate the balls pregame. This is a gauge that looks radically different than the other gauge, Not only does it have the logo on it, but more importantly the needle is bent at about a 45 degree angle. If one really wants to b fair about the evidence, one has to concede that it's more likely than not that the ref used the logo gauge pregame. And with that fact the entire case falls apart and there is no deflation.

10 of 12 balls submitted by the pats were within spec and the ref didn't have to adjust pressure. That's the key here - they all weren't adjusted to 12.5, they were already there, as set by the Pats.Also, the case does not fall apart, as Exponent found it doesn't really matter anyways.

 

[12punch]

At approximately 7:47 p.m., during the second quarter of the AFC Championship Game, Colts linebacker D‟Qwell Jackson intercepted a pass thrown by Tom Brady.
According to Seabrooks, he believed that the ball felt similar to the footballs intercepted by Mike Adams (AT indy) during the Colts game against the Patriots earlier in the season,
The intern used a digital pressure gauge similar to the gauge used by the Colts
to set their footballs before the game, and reported that the pressure measured approximately 11psi
.
At Riveron‟s request, Daniel retrieved a gauge that was near the air pump in the dressing area of the Locker Room, and they tested the intercepted ball three times before the balance of the game balls were brought back to the Officials Locker Room.36
All three measurements were below 12.0 psi
.
The pressure of the Patriots ball that had been intercepted by the Colts was separately tested three times and the measurements — 11.45, 11.35 and 11.75 psi,

so, to sum up, each one of a couple dozen pats balls measured exactly 12.5 pregame, while a couple dozen colts balls measured exactly 13.0.
2 quarters of football later, a single pats ball has 3 different measurements, and the colts balls range from 12.15 to 12.9.

shark pool be sharkin'

 

[moleculo]

The Broncos front office suspended the video guy, immediately upon learning of the illegal taping. They also reported to the NFL office, and McDaniels inaction was why he was fired.

There was no cover-up, there was no proclamation of innocence. The Broncos staff acted swiftly to punish the guilty, before the NFL had to launch their own investigation.

If you want to say the punishment was different, that's fine but you have to acknowledge the two teams behaved differently.

The comparison here is to Spygate, where the Pats acted in a similar fashion. They didn't report the incident obviously, but that's because they had a legal interpretation where they thought they were acting within the spirit of the Rule. But as soon as the incident was brought to their attention they cooperated with the NFL fully and admitted their mistake.I highlight the issue for a couple of reasons. One, the disparity in the punishments. Two, the lack of an investigation by the League. Third, the assumption of innocence. Anyone with an unbiased opinion has to concede that the League treated these situations differently and with prejudice.

With all due respect, I don't think either of us are capable of knowing what someone with an unbiased opinion would conclude.

 

[alvarndc]

I haven't read all 206 pages of this thread, so forgive me if someone has made this point before. But is seems to me that the real issue is not that Brady and the Patriots (and probably Bellichek) broke an obscure rule, or even that they got caught.

The real issue is that they put themselves above the league by refusing to cooperate with a good faith investigation. You cannot claim "they didn't prove anything" and simultaneously obstruct the investigation. We will probably never know, but there is certainly reason to suspect this episode is merely the tip of the iceberg.

Personally, I would love to see just one thing on Brady's cell phone - who was the NEXT person he called AFTER he called the ball dudes at 7am. If it was Bellichek, that puts a whole different perspective on this, doesn't it?

nobody's even mentioned that yet, and the answer to your question is 'no'

Nobody has mentioned it, bc the Patriots have suppressed that information. They have obstructed any investigation. So none of us know the real extent of what went on.

That in itself is justification for disciplinary action.

Try taking that approach with your boss and see how far it gets you.

 

[12punch]

I haven't read all 206 pages of this thread, so forgive me if someone has made this point before. But is seems to me that the real issue is not that Brady and the Patriots (and probably Bellichek) broke an obscure rule, or even that they got caught.

The real issue is that they put themselves above the league by refusing to cooperate with a good faith investigation. You cannot claim "they didn't prove anything" and simultaneously obstruct the investigation. We will probably never know, but there is certainly reason to suspect this episode is merely the tip of the iceberg.

Personally, I would love to see just one thing on Brady's cell phone - who was the NEXT person he called AFTER he called the ball dudes at 7am. If it was Bellichek, that puts a whole different perspective on this, doesn't it?

nobody's even mentioned that yet, and the answer to your question is 'no'

Nobody has mentioned it, bc the Patriots have suppressed that information. They have obstructed any investigation. So none of us know the real extent of what went on.

or because I was being sarcastic and it's been brought up and addressed about 100 ####### times, if you bothered to maybe even skim the last page or two.

 

[bostonfred]

Nobody has mentioned it, bc the Patriots have suppressed that information. They have obstructed any investigation. So none of us know the real extent of what went on.

That in itself is justification for disciplinary action.

Try taking that approach with your boss and see how far it gets you.

My employer has never asked for my personal phone records. If they did, I would say no. If they suspended me for that, I would probably talk to a lawyer.

 

[jonessed]

The NFLPA just slapped around Troy Vincent like he was a worthless person. This is why you dont want lawyers in on this, because it wont matter the facts of Deflategate they will attack the process and win.

The NFL is about to be destroyed and this will be the end of Goodell. In court it wont matter at all if Brady deflated balls, the process will be what is taken to court and the NFL wont stand a chance. This is why I wait for the lawyers to make their cases, especially smart ones like Kessler. I see why he is the thorn in the NFLS side. He owns them.



NFLPA ‏@NFLPA 23m23 minutes ago

#NFLPA Notice of Appeal of Tom Brady Discipline: http://bit.ly/1cDBQWw

 

[moleculo]

Do you find it likely that the pats submitted balls pre-inspection at 12.9 psi, when they are clear that they inflate to 12.5? And, do you find it likely that the Colts submit at 13.4 psi, while they report 13.0?

Not sure where you are going with this. The Pats balls were gauged at 12.5 pregame, and the Colts were around 13.0. Of course the dimwit ref didn't write them down, so we have to take his word for it.But if you assume the logo gauge was used pregame, which as mentioned is what the ref remembers using "to the best of his recollection", then by comparing to the logo gauge readings at halftime the Pats balls only deflated slightly, in accordance with the Ideal Gas Law.

I'm sorry, like I said I'm traveling and got my numbers mixed up...my overall point remains however.Let's accept the refs statement that the pats balls were all 12.5+/-, and the colts 13.0+/-, pre-inspection. If he used the gauge measuring high as he reccolected, that means the Pats balls were actually 12.1 and the Colts balls were 12.6. Neither the Pats nor the Colts said that is their standard when interviewed by Wells.

That leaves 4 possibilities:

1) the Colts and Patriots both lied WRT their pre-game ball preparation process and they both submit balls almost exactly 0.4 psi lower than they claimed.

2) both the Pats and Colts pressure gauges were almost exactly off by -0.4 psi.

3) the referee misremembered which one of two nearly identical gauges was used.

4) the ref used one gauge to measure Colts balls, another to measure the Pats. I think this is the theory in the Pats context report...I haven't had a chance to break down why they think this is the case.

Exponent/Wells concluded 3 is most likely and I agree.

Like I said earlier -it doesn't clear the pats beyond reasonable doubt but that's not the standard we are looking at here.

Further, per the exponent report, it doesn't matter anyways. Assuming the high gauge for initial measurements would show the Pats are in the clear if and only if all 11 Patriots balls could be gauged twice within 2 minutes of coming indoors. This is especially implausible when you find it took ~4 min just to get the balls to the locker room and set up the measurement process.

I don't think we're on the same page. I am saying that if the logo gauge was used during the pregame inspection, then the pats balls were calibrated to 12.5 on that gauge. And you would then compare the logo gauge readings at halftime and that would give you your true comparison without having to fool around with the numbers. And when you do that, the conclusion to be reached is that it was natural deflation.It's amazing to me that such a fundamental fact in the case is being glossed over or outright ignored by the general public and the media. The ref says that "to the best of his recollection" he used the logo gauge to calibrate the balls pregame. This is a gauge that looks radically different than the other gauge, Not only does it have the logo on it, but more importantly the needle is bent at about a 45 degree angle. If one really wants to b fair about the evidence, one has to concede that it's more likely than not that the ref used the logo gauge pregame. And with that fact the entire case falls apart and there is no deflation.

Please look at figure 2 and figure 4 in the exponent report, and tell me how these gauges are radically different. To my eye, they are clearly more alike than different.

 

[GoBirds]

Unless the NFL comes out with some compelling evidence quickly, this thing is over. What Belichik did today was slap a beat down on the NFL and the media the likes of which I've never seen. If this were a prize fight the refs would have stepped in and put a stop to it.

The NFL has knowingly allowed a franchise, a fan base, it's greatest coach, and maybe it's greatest quarterback - to be dragged through the mud for 6 days while they should be preparing for a Superbowl. After what Belichik did today, Goodell has to respond with something. The fact that he hasn't seems to point to what I've suspected all along - that the NFL has nothing here, and that once again Roger Goodell is showing how incompetent and incapable he is - hopefully for the last time.

Update?

He provided an update a bunch of pages ago and was pretty cool about it. He's obviously a Pats fan and is sticking up for them on procedural grounds. You can concede that Brady probably cheated and simultaneously think that the league is screwing this up -- I don't, but it's a reasonable position.

Thank you Ivan. This guy brings nothing to the Shark Pool - never has - never will. Really wish he would just go away and find another message board.

I repeat my question to the Pats haters:

Regarding Spygate and the horror of videotaping defensive calls 30 feet from the legal area...

What is worse - a team videotaping defensive signals or a team videotaping a walkthrough of practice? And for the sake of this hypothetical let's assume that the team's coaching staff denies looking at the tape of the walk-through. Which is worse?

Both suck and still against the rules no matter is you watch the tape or not...like getting caught with a cheat sheet for a test but you didn't use it.

Exactly....instead of downplaying the cheating that occurred just play by the rules and you don't have to make all the excuses or come up with crazy hypotheticals.

It's not a crazy hypothetical. It actually happened. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5855075

And it highlights EXACTLY one of the main points I've been trying to drive into that thick skull of yours - that the NFL has once again shown itself to be horribly incapable of administering anything close to a sound, cohesive, intelligent program related to disciplining teams in the League. The Pats get busted in Spygate for taping signals on the sidelines, when they could have just taped the signals legally by moving the camera 30 feet away, and it's the end of the world. They lose a first round pick and face the harshest punishment in history, even though they cooperate fully and acknowledge their mistake right away.

The Denver Broncos, three years later, videotape the walkthrough of a practice, don't report it right away, and get fined $50,000. No investigation. No loss of draft picks. No assumption of guilt. The Broncos are "good guys" so the League takes them at their word that they didn't view the tape and that it never happened prior to that. The story becomes such a non-issue that to this day if you mention a practice being videotaped, most people wrongly insist it was the Patriots who videotaped a walkthrough (which was soundly disproven with a front page retraction and apology by the Boston Globe) and don't even realize that the Denver Broncos are the only team that ever videotaped a walkthrough, and they got nothing more than a $50,000 fine.

And when you ask people straight up which is worse - a team videotaping defensive signals or a team videotaping a walkthrough - everyone agrees the walkthrough is more egregious. Until you bring up that the Broncos did that and the NFL let it slide, then the narrative changes to "well that's because the Broncos didn't view the tapes". And where is the proof that the Broncos didn't view the tapes? The good word of John McDaniels, who didn't report the incident for two weeks?

The bottom line here is that the NFL has an atrocious track record of handling disciplinary issues fairly and consistently. If you think for one second the new England Patriots are the only team pushing the envelop in this league then you are a naive idiot. What makes the Pats different is that they are despised so much that when they do get caught the League throws the book at them with ridiculously extreme penalties, unfair treatment, and unconscionably unprofessional leaks designed solely to smear the reputation of the team. And they don't just issue leaks that are true - they apparently also issue leaks that are patent lies, as they did with the initial Mort Report saying the balls were deflated to 10.5. At worst the NFL didn't issue that leak (though it's hard to conceive that Mort would risk his career by lying) but still chose to remain silent and not correct it. And that leak is HUGE here. It is essentially what created the public outrage and justified the creation of the Wells investigation. In my opinion this is a level of corruption that's a much bigger issue than the videotaping of signals or deflated footballs. And this is why the Pats are going nuclear right now, and they have every right to do so.

So once again, Bird, just so you don't misrepresent my position again, I am of the the belief that the Pats likely were up to no good with deflating footballs. I think the text messages show that. But I don't see any good evidence that it was done in this particular game. I actually think a fair reading of the evidence actually proves that they likely did NOT deflate the balls during this game. The Pats are wrong and should be punished for it. But the bigger issue here is the absolutely corrupt manner in which the NFL handled this from start to finish. The League has once again shown itself to be incompetent and petty. And the public just keeps burying their head in the sand - until of course it happens to their team.

Corruption is the issue now......come on man. Given they butchered the Rice situation but each case is different...most of the people that have a problem with the NFL are fans of teams in trouble for cheating etc. Goodell isn't going anywhere...the Pats will create a media circus with the back and forth but end of the day they broke some rules which is why they are in this position it's not the NFL fault.

 

[12punch]

Corruption is the issue now......come on man. Given they butchered the Rice situation but each case is different...most of the people that have a problem with the NFL are fans of teams in trouble for cheating etc. Goodell isn't going anywhere...the Pats will create a media circus with the back and forth but end of the day they broke some rules which is why they are in this position it's not the NFL fault.

 

[12punch]

http://www.csnne.com/new-england-patriots/tom-brady-deflategate-reaction-now-race-to-be-most-ridiculous

Friday night, after wrapping up my writing and doing some errands, I had me a Friday night. I went to IHOP. Who doesn’t love breakfast for dinner? Grabbed a USA Today to keep me company. Opened up to “Sports.” Began to read a column.

I was then informed that Tom Brady “has proved to be little better than Lance Armstrong, Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire and everyone else who broke the rules in search of an edge.”

Here’s the link to the column by Nancy Armour. It almost made me spit out my Smokehouse Combo.

......

There’s a dearth of critical thinking in the media when sensational stories break. We turn into carnival barkers. And the quickest way to get people [ie rubes] gathered under our tent and gawking is by using our bullhorn – blogs, columns, radio mikes, TV shows, Twitter feeds – to make some over-the-top claim. If it’s laughably out of proportion, whatever.

I can vouch for the laughable part

I'm guessing you salty trolls own those clown suits rather than rent

 

[alvarndc]

Nobody has mentioned it, bc the Patriots have suppressed that information. They have obstructed any investigation. So none of us know the real extent of what went on.

That in itself is justification for disciplinary action.

Try taking that approach with your boss and see how far it gets you.

My employer has never asked for my personal phone records. If they did, I would say no. If they suspended me for that, I would probably talk to a lawyer.

If your boss legitimately thought you had, for instance, passed sensitive information to a competitor, and asked for your phone or email records to assess that possibility in good faith, while assuring you of privacy, and you refused - you would not have a leg to stand on. It's funny how brave some people are on the Internet regarding how they would stand up to their employer. Very easy to be brave on an anonymous forum. Heck, we don't even bat an eye when we hear about all the stuff the NSA is doing, which is blatantly unconstitutional.

You can argue about the stupid details of this fiasco. The single most important aspect is the fact they put themselves above the league by refusing to cooperate. There is no good answer for that refusal to cooperate, and they are getting ##### slapped more for that than for anything else. They can whine all they want and pay for lawyers and post 20,000 word "rebuttals", and people who don't know any better can maintain they should go to court, blah, blah,blah.

This is cut and dry. The league has complete authority in this case. The only reason they will truncate the suspension is self serving - to maintain revenue from a potentially big Dallas-NE game. If they have integrity, they will deny the appeal. But the NFL lost integrity a long time ago.

 

[bostonfred]

If my employer asked me for my personal phone, I would say no. That's not an appropriate request.

If I were also a union representative for my company and they demanded phone records for an unrelated investigation, I would definitely say no.

If they assured me that everything would be fine and just asked me to print off some texts and records for them in the middle of an investigation where I was falsely accused of wrong doing and I didn't know what they would do with the b information but I knew the investigator had a reputation for twisting things into the worst possible light, I would let my lawyer decide my response.

I get that its easy to imagine him saying no because of all the bad stuff he must have on his phone, but it's also perfectly reasonable to say no to a request like that, especially when you're working with the kind of guy who has twisted everything in this investigation to sound as bad as possible.

And that's the key point. I can't see any good coming from sharing texts that they aren't entitled to. There's no way wells was going to exonerate him based on n the level of evidence he requested. what possible text could Brady have printed out that would have changed wells' mind? You can't prove a negative. But if Brady sent a text to his dad saying. I didn't do this, maybe wells spins it as, even his dad thought he did it. There were trust issues. It sounds silly until you realize that the words "dorito dink" actually appear in a formal document.

 

[12punch]

.You can argue about the stupid details of this fiasco. The single most important aspect is the fact they put themselves above the league by refusing to cooperate. There is no good answer for that refusal to cooperate, and they are getting ##### slapped more for that than for anything else. They can whine all they want and pay for lawyers and post 20,000 word "rebuttals", and people who don't know any better can maintain they should go to court, blah, blah,blah.

This is cut and dry. The league has complete authority in this case. The only reason they will truncate the suspension is self serving - to maintain revenue from a potentially big Dallas-NE game. If they have integrity, they will deny the appeal. But the NFL lost integrity a long time ago.

you can continue to parrot this as often as you like but it won't make it fact.

the pats cooperated as detailed in previous pages --- stop spouting nonsense

just because you wandered into the carnival barker's tent doesn't mean the rest of us want to hear about the bearded lady.

 

[alvarndc]

We will have to agree to disagree.

For better or worse the large majority of Americans who are not biased in this by being Patriot fans support the idea that given the appropriate privacy safeguards (which the league acknowledged they have an obligation to uphold), it is a necessary part of any investigation in 2015 to examine electronic data, such as cell phone and email. That's just the way it is.

And that's not even bringing up the fact the Patriots refused to allow access for a second interview to a principal party.

Brady's reaction does not pass the smell test. If he were "innocent", he, like any human being, would be proclaiming his innocence loudly and with a bullhorn, esp after being suspended.

This has been a textbook example of how NOT to handle a dispute with your employer. The league has all of the leverage here. Unfortunately, Brady AND the Patriots are learning the hard way that no entity is larger than the league.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

The saga continues.

I can't believe the lengths Brady and Kraft are going to here. This is definitely an ego thing. Kraft initially said he would accept any punishment handed out to the Pats. I am guessing at the time he thought it would be a fine and worst case scenario Brady misses a game. Goodell who is under a microscope appears fed up by the Pats over the last number of years decides to lay down the hammer.

I guess this is what happens when you have multimillionaires fighting over a game. It really has become comical and more so on the Pats part. Goodell for all his flaws has one of the toughest jobs in the world. He has not been perfect by any means, but he has made a ton more positive moves for the better for the NFL.

Goodell may be the laughing stock to some, but in this scenario Brady and Kraft sans mostly Pats fans are looking like complete idiots to the rest of us. They have definitely made a mountain out of a mole hill. I hope Goodell stands by the punishment handed down.

 

[alvarndc]

.

You can argue about the stupid details of this fiasco. The single most important aspect is the fact they put themselves above the league by refusing to cooperate. There is no good answer for that refusal to cooperate, and they are getting ##### slapped more for that than for anything else. They can whine all they want and pay for lawyers and post 20,000 word "rebuttals", and people who don't know any better can maintain they should go to court, blah, blah,blah.

This is cut and dry. The league has complete authority in this case. The only reason they will truncate the suspension is self serving - to maintain revenue from a potentially big Dallas-NE game. If they have integrity, they will deny the appeal. But the NFL lost integrity a long time ago.

you can continue to parrot this as often as you like but it won't make it fact.

the pats cooperated as detailed in previous pages --- stop spouting nonsense

just because you wandered into the carnival barker's tent doesn't mean the rest of us want to hear about the bearded lady.

Ok fine, spout your ad hominem as much as you want.

You are clearly delusional if you maintain the Patriots and Brady cooperated. It is near indisputable they did not cooperate, and was even cited in the letter, appropriately, as part of the reason for the suspension.

I will refer to a favorite verse - Proverbs 26:4

 

[espnespn]

The saga continues.

I can't believe the lengths Brady and Kraft are going to here. This is definitely an ego thing. Kraft initially said he would accept any punishment handed out to the Pats. I am guessing at the time he thought it would be a fine and worst case scenario Brady misses a game. Goodell who is under a microscope appears fed up by the Pats over the last number of years decides to lay down the hammer.

I guess this is what happens when you have multimillionaires fighting over a game. It really has become comical and more so on the Pats part. Goodell for all his flaws has one of the toughest jobs in the world. He has not been perfect by any means, but he has made a ton more positive moves for the better for the NFL.

Goodell may be the laughing stock to some, but in this scenario Brady and Kraft sans mostly Pats fans are looking like complete idiots to the rest of us. They have definitely made a mountain out of a mole hill. I hope Goodell stands by the punishment handed down.

It wouldn't surprise me if Kraft initially made the statement that he would accept his punishment (before the punishment was actually announced), because someone at the NFL told him it would be relatively lighter, but then the NFL gave a bigger punishment than that.

Kind of like what happened with Adrian Peterson and Troy Vincent, where the league told him one punishment, and then actually gave a much bigger punishment.

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2014-12-15/adrian-peterson-lawsuit-nfl-suspension-audio-conversation-video-troy-vincent-lawyer-players-association-roger-goodell

 

[bostonfred]

The saga continues.

I can't believe the lengths Brady and Kraft are going to here. This is definitely an ego thing. Kraft initially said he would accept any punishment handed out to the Pats. I am guessing at the time he thought it would be a fine and worst case scenario Brady misses a game. Goodell who is under a microscope appears fed up by the Pats over the last number of years decides to lay down the hammer.

I guess this is what happens when you have multimillionaires fighting over a game. It really has become comical and more so on the Pats part. Goodell for all his flaws has one of the toughest jobs in the world. He has not been perfect by any means, but he has made a ton more positive moves for the better for the NFL.

Goodell may be the laughing stock to some, but in this scenario Brady and Kraft sans mostly Pats fans are looking like complete idiots to the rest of us. They have definitely made a mountain out of a mole hill. I hope Goodell stands by the punishment handed down.

the league leaked information and let this become a huge national story during superbowl week, conducted a three month investigation into the psi of footballs in a cold wet day, and concluded by punishing the Patriots with the harshest penalty in NFL history, including a fine 40x the penalty in the books, a suspension twice as long as ray rice got, and the harshest draft pick penalty ever given, and the Patriots are the ones making a mountain out of a mole hill because they don't just take it on the chin? I do agree with you that if they're guilty, they're guilty, and they should accept it and move on. But their actions, and the implausible case laid out in the supposedly damning wells report, make me think that they may just be telling the truth. I understand why its easier to just assume they're guilty and move on, but if they're not, then this is a really raw deal they've been handed and I understand them scorching some earth.

 

[CapnJB]

But their actions, and the implausible case laid out in the supposedly damning wells report, make me think that they may just be telling the truth.

So it's not because your name is bostonfred?

 

[bostonfred]

Brady's reaction does not pass the smell test. If he were "innocent", he, like any human being, would be proclaiming his innocence loudly and with a bullhorn, esp after being suspended.

I can't believe the lengths Brady and Kraft are going to here.

They have definitely made a mountain out of a mole hill.

I see. Brady looks guilty for not fighting this enough and for fighting it too much.

They should take the worst draft pick penalty ever given by the nfl without a fight because they are the ones who have made the mountain out of the mole hill, because an innocent person wouldn't fight this.

this is like moleculo saying it would be impossible for a group of people to test 12 balls in four minutes, but believing that one guy could sneak twelve balls into a bathroom, deflate them to a uniform psi that was just slightly lower than they started since even the measurements on the more damning gauge suggested they were only .2 to .5 psi lower than they ought to be, get them all back into the bag, wash up and get out of the bathroom without getting caught in a minute forty flat when they had twenty plus minutes until game time.

The standard of incredulity towards the Patriots is just ridiculous compared to the believability you guys assign to Wells and the NFL. It's obviously much easier to believe that the Pats are the bad guys here and I don't blame you one bit, but if you care enough about the topic to read and post in a 200 page thread about it then at least try to think through what you're saying.

 

[moleculo]

Brady's reaction does not pass the smell test. If he were "innocent", he, like any human being, would be proclaiming his innocence loudly and with a bullhorn, esp after being suspended.

I can't believe the lengths Brady and Kraft are going to here.

They have definitely made a mountain out of a mole hill.

I see. Brady looks guilty for not fighting this enough and for fighting it too much. They should take the worst draft pick penalty ever given by the nfl without a fight because they are the ones who have made the mountain out of the mole hill, because an innocent person wouldn't fight this.

this is like moleculo saying it would be impossible for a group of people to test 12 balls in four minutes, but believing that one guy could sneak twelve balls into a bathroom, deflate them to a uniform psi that was just slightly lower than they started since even the measurements on the more damning gauge suggested they were only .2 to .5 psi lower than they ought to be, get them all back into the bag, wash up and get out of the bathroom without getting caught in a minute forty flat when they had twenty plus minutes until game time.

The standard of incredulity towards the Patriots is just ridiculous compared to the believability you guys assign to Wells and the NFL. It's obviously much easier to believe that the Pats are the bad guys here and I don't blame you one bit, but if you care enough about the topic to read and post in a 200 page thread about it then at least try to think through what you're saying.

If you are going to reference me, at least let me say that they were far from uniformly deflated. The halftime data shows significant variation, which is what one would expect for balls imprecisely adjusted (as opposed to adjusted with a gauge).Also, this isn't my conclusion, its the Wells conclusion. Argue with them by arguing the interviews of Anderson and other league officials involved in the halftime inspection and argue with the Exponent timed trial of ball deflation.

 

[12punch]

Brady's reaction does not pass the smell test. If he were "innocent", he, like any human being, would be proclaiming his innocence loudly and with a bullhorn, esp after being suspended.

I can't believe the lengths Brady and Kraft are going to here.

They have definitely made a mountain out of a mole hill.

I see. Brady looks guilty for not fighting this enough and for fighting it too much.They should take the worst draft pick penalty ever given by the nfl without a fight because they are the ones who have made the mountain out of the mole hill, because an innocent person wouldn't fight this.

this is like moleculo saying it would be impossible for a group of people to test 12 balls in four minutes, but believing that one guy could sneak twelve balls into a bathroom, deflate them to a uniform psi that was just slightly lower than they started since even the measurements on the more damning gauge suggested they were only .2 to .5 psi lower than they ought to be, get them all back into the bag, wash up and get out of the bathroom without getting caught in a minute forty flat when they had twenty plus minutes until game time.

The standard of incredulity towards the Patriots is just ridiculous compared to the believability you guys assign to Wells and the NFL. It's obviously much easier to believe that the Pats are the bad guys here and I don't blame you one bit, but if you care enough about the topic to read and post in a 200 page thread about it then at least try to think through what you're saying.

If you are going to reference me, at least let me say that they were far from uniformly deflated. The halftime data shows significant variation, which is what one would expect for balls imprecisely adjusted (as opposed to adjusted with a gauge).Also, this isn't my conclusion, its the Wells conclusion. Argue with them by arguing the interviews of Anderson and other league officials involved in the halftime inspection and argue with the Exponent timed trial of ball deflation.

then I guess we can also assume he deflated the colts balls while he was in there

shark pool be sharkin'

 

[Tool]

The saga continues.

I can't believe the lengths Brady and Kraft are going to here. This is definitely an ego thing. Kraft initially said he would accept any punishment handed out to the Pats. I am guessing at the time he thought it would be a fine and worst case scenario Brady misses a game. Goodell who is under a microscope appears fed up by the Pats over the last number of years decides to lay down the hammer.

I guess this is what happens when you have multimillionaires fighting over a game. It really has become comical and more so on the Pats part. Goodell for all his flaws has one of the toughest jobs in the world. He has not been perfect by any means, but he has made a ton more positive moves for the better for the NFL.

Goodell may be the laughing stock to some, but in this scenario Brady and Kraft sans mostly Pats fans are looking like complete idiots to the rest of us. They have definitely made a mountain out of a mole hill. I hope Goodell stands by the punishment handed down.

The Pats have made a mountain out of a mole hill. Are you on drugs, Danny?

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Brady's reaction does not pass the smell test. If he were "innocent", he, like any human being, would be proclaiming his innocence loudly and with a bullhorn, esp after being suspended.

I can't believe the lengths Brady and Kraft are going to here.

They have definitely made a mountain out of a mole hill.

I see. Brady looks guilty for not fighting this enough and for fighting it too much.

They should take the worst draft pick penalty ever given by the nfl without a fight because they are the ones who have made the mountain out of the mole hill, because an innocent person wouldn't fight this.

this is like moleculo saying it would be impossible for a group of people to test 12 balls in four minutes, but believing that one guy could sneak twelve balls into a bathroom, deflate them to a uniform psi that was just slightly lower than they started since even the measurements on the more damning gauge suggested they were only .2 to .5 psi lower than they ought to be, get them all back into the bag, wash up and get out of the bathroom without getting caught in a minute forty flat when they had twenty plus minutes until game time.

The standard of incredulity towards the Patriots is just ridiculous compared to the believability you guys assign to Wells and the NFL. It's obviously much easier to believe that the Pats are the bad guys here and I don't blame you one bit, but if you care enough about the topic to read and post in a 200 page thread about it then at least try to think through what you're saying.

Pretty sure you took alvarndc's quote out of context to fit your narrative, but whatever.

I *think* someone did a test to see if they could deflate 12 balls in 1:40, and they concluded that it wasnt all that difficult. Especially for someone as proficient as to be nicknamed "Deflator".

Somehow, all of the video evidence from Spygate was "lost" or destroyed. We never got to see that. I agree that this penalty is extremely harsh, which leads me to believe that Goddell hooked them up with basically a free pass on the first infraction, which they then showed a complete disregard for by continuing to bend the rules.

First offense, we let you off easy...even "lose" the evidence (if I recall correctly) so that the world cannot see just how much you really did cheat. We tell them you just taped some innocent signals, but we dont show them what you really did tape, which allowed you to know the Rams and Eagles offense as well as they did. We'll give you a pass on this, but it HAS to stop.

You do it again...you are going to feel the wrath.

I understand that I am making assumptions here and definitely reaching with my concepts on Spygate. But if I am right - and there is evidence that could lead one to think these things are possibly true - then the harsh punishments are easily explained.

I personally believe that something like this is the basis for the large punishment. They did "lose" the video evidence, right? If I am off base on that, my apologies. I used to spend my time as a fan focussing on the game, not the different details surrounding cheating the fan out of a legitimate game. It seems we have all been forced to spend more time on this crap now, but back then I didnt pay all that much attention so my recollection of the specific details may be off.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

The saga continues.

I can't believe the lengths Brady and Kraft are going to here. This is definitely an ego thing. Kraft initially said he would accept any punishment handed out to the Pats. I am guessing at the time he thought it would be a fine and worst case scenario Brady misses a game. Goodell who is under a microscope appears fed up by the Pats over the last number of years decides to lay down the hammer.

I guess this is what happens when you have multimillionaires fighting over a game. It really has become comical and more so on the Pats part. Goodell for all his flaws has one of the toughest jobs in the world. He has not been perfect by any means, but he has made a ton more positive moves for the better for the NFL.

Goodell may be the laughing stock to some, but in this scenario Brady and Kraft sans mostly Pats fans are looking like complete idiots to the rest of us. They have definitely made a mountain out of a mole hill. I hope Goodell stands by the punishment handed down.

the league leaked information and let this become a huge national story during superbowl week, conducted a three month investigation into the psi of footballs in a cold wet day, and concluded by punishing the Patriots with the harshest penalty in NFL history, including a fine 40x the penalty in the books, a suspension twice as long as ray rice got, and the harshest draft pick penalty ever given, and the Patriots are the ones making a mountain out of a mole hill because they don't just take it on the chin?I do agree with you that if they're guilty, they're guilty, and they should accept it and move on. But their actions, and the implausible case laid out in the supposedly damning wells report, make me think that they may just be telling the truth. I understand why its easier to just assume they're guilty and move on, but if they're not, then this is a really raw deal they've been handed and I understand them scorching some earth.

The NFL behind the scenes is much more complicated than what any of us here really know.

Everything is a calculated move and there is thought behind it. The harshest critics of Goodell seem to have zero idea how hard his job is. The owners know that Goodell has an extremely difficult job, and 31 of 32 voted/rewarded him back knowing he is doing what is best for the game and doing a pretty good job in a tough situation.

It is easy/simple to call out Goodell as being crazy and having no idea what he is doing, but his job is ridiculously hard. Under his watch the NFL has grown immensely. There are going to be bumps along the way, there are going to be some mistakes made especially with the popularity of the NFL and the wide variety of people who work in partnership with it.

Players, teams, owners, agents, etc all have agendas to do what is best for themselves. Often times Goodell becomes the scapegoat for mistakes made by these guys. You cant have a rule and punishment in place for every single thing that happens in and around the NFL. There are so many moving parts and different situations that arise that make it extremely difficult to get everything right. In the end, you have to put some trust that the intentions of your leader (Goodell) is to do what is best for the game, which I happen to think he is doing.

It is hard to be a boss of multimillionaires who are used to calling their own shots and doing whatever the hell they want. There is a reason these guys are owners; they have bossed people around for years and done what they have to become filthy rich. I am sure many of them have bent rules along the way to make that money. There are a lot of teams, and players and coaches and owners bending rules in the NFL, crossing lines and making mistakes. Goodell then has to step in and deal with these guys.

I am guessing behind the scenes there is a ton more to this story then what any of us know. There are always conspiracy theorists and when it is your team being punished it is easy to point out all the bad points of Goodell and calling him an idiot while failing to acknowledge all the bad mistakes your own team has made.

Anytime Goodell makes a decision that has a positive or negative outcome for the parties involved you have all these people from the negative side claiming he is an idiot. I don't envy Goodell's job at all and he does not get nearly enough credit for how far the league has come under his watch. Really it is a thankless job and he is compensated by getting paid a ton of money, but it is one that I would not want.

 

[12punch]

I understand that I am making assumptions here and definitely reaching with my concepts on Spygate.

 

[12punch]

steph stradley gonna be on a seattle station to chat about this at 2p central

 

[12punch]

I will refer to a favorite verse - Proverbs 26:4

I'll refer to my sig

VV

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

Brady's reaction does not pass the smell test. If he were "innocent", he, like any human being, would be proclaiming his innocence loudly and with a bullhorn, esp after being suspended.

I can't believe the lengths Brady and Kraft are going to here.

They have definitely made a mountain out of a mole hill.

I see. Brady looks guilty for not fighting this enough and for fighting it too much.

They should take the worst draft pick penalty ever given by the nfl without a fight because they are the ones who have made the mountain out of the mole hill, because an innocent person wouldn't fight this.

this is like moleculo saying it would be impossible for a group of people to test 12 balls in four minutes, but believing that one guy could sneak twelve balls into a bathroom, deflate them to a uniform psi that was just slightly lower than they started since even the measurements on the more damning gauge suggested they were only .2 to .5 psi lower than they ought to be, get them all back into the bag, wash up and get out of the bathroom without getting caught in a minute forty flat when they had twenty plus minutes until game time.

The standard of incredulity towards the Patriots is just ridiculous compared to the believability you guys assign to Wells and the NFL. It's obviously much easier to believe that the Pats are the bad guys here and I don't blame you one bit, but if you care enough about the topic to read and post in a 200 page thread about it then at least try to think through what you're saying.

What I am struggling to see from the Pats side is why would Goodell want to hurt his product by suspending Brady (one of the most popular guys in the NFL) and getting into a war with Kraft one of the most powerful owners in the NFL unless what he thought they did was deserved of such a harsh punishment.

You think Goodell wanted this to become a giant mess? Blaming Goodell for this mess is ludicrous. Once again it is failing to acknowledge that your team, and players made the mistake in the first place. I am guessing he did not want this to be drawn out in the media. The Pats have created smoke yet again and we all know where there is smoke there is usually fire.

Trying to blame Goodell for his is down right laughable and quite frankly ignorant.

 

[General Tso]

Nobody has mentioned it, bc the Patriots have suppressed that information. They have obstructed any investigation. So none of us know the real extent of what went on.

That in itself is justification for disciplinary action.

Try taking that approach with your boss and see how far it gets you.

My employer has never asked for my personal phone records. If they did, I would say no. If they suspended me for that, I would probably talk to a lawyer.

If your boss legitimately thought you had, for instance, passed sensitive information to a competitor, and asked for your phone or email records to assess that possibility in good faith, while assuring you of privacy, and you refused - you would not have a leg to stand on. It's funny how brave some people are on the Internet regarding how they would stand up to their employer. Very easy to be brave on an anonymous forum. Heck, we don't even bat an eye when we hear about all the stuff the NSA is doing, which is blatantly unconstitutional.You can argue about the stupid details of this fiasco. The single most important aspect is the fact they put themselves above the league by refusing to cooperate. There is no good answer for that refusal to cooperate, and they are getting ##### slapped more for that than for anything else. They can whine all they want and pay for lawyers and post 20,000 word "rebuttals", and people who don't know any better can maintain they should go to court, blah, blah,blah.

This is cut and dry. The league has complete authority in this case. The only reason they will truncate the suspension is self serving - to maintain revenue from a potentially big Dallas-NE game. If they have integrity, they will deny the appeal. But the NFL lost integrity a long time ago.

Here's the bottom line - the NFL picks and chooses what issues it wants to prosecute. You give Ted Wells 4 months and $5 million and he would find dirt on Mother Theresa.You people are absolutely blind to the ridiculous unfairness in all of this. The League hates Belichik, they're tired of him kicking their ###, and they lobbied Goodell to bury the Pats. If the Broncos were investigated like this when they taped the 49ers walkthrough in 2010, it is more probable than not that Wells would have come up with justification for just as harsh a punishment as the Pats got.

 

[Jercules]

There's a 'broken windows theory' aspect to this no one is discussing (if a building has a broken window--and a jungle lawn, and peeling paint, etc.--and that window isn't fixed within a given time, it's basically a certainty that soon all the windows will be broken. The broken window sends a signal that nobody cares about this building, so people feel free to vandalize when they otherwise wouldn't).

In this case, the Wells report makes it exceedingly obvious that the NFL didn't give a hoot about testing and securing the balls before games. A hyper-competitive guy like Brady sees that, wants his balls how he wants them, and decides to take matters into his own hands.

Doesn't make it okay: he probably deserves the $25,000 fine such an infraction supposedly warrants as stated by the Wells report.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

There's a 'broken windows theory' aspect to this no one is discussing (if a building has a broken window--and a jungle lawn, and peeling paint, etc.--and that window isn't fixed within a given time, it's basically a certainty that soon all the windows will be broken. The broken window sends a signal that nobody cares about this building, so people feel free to vandalize when they otherwise wouldn't).

In this case, the Wells report makes it exceedingly obvious that the NFL didn't give a hoot about testing and securing the balls before games. A hyper-competitive guy like Brady sees that, wants his balls how he wants them, and decides to take matters into his own hands.

Doesn't make it okay: he probably deserves the $25,000 fine such an infraction supposedly warrants as stated by the Wells report.

OK...so then why lie about it and then obstruct the investigation? Round and round we go....

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

Nobody has mentioned it, bc the Patriots have suppressed that information. They have obstructed any investigation. So none of us know the real extent of what went on.

That in itself is justification for disciplinary action.

Try taking that approach with your boss and see how far it gets you.

My employer has never asked for my personal phone records. If they did, I would say no. If they suspended me for that, I would probably talk to a lawyer.

If your boss legitimately thought you had, for instance, passed sensitive information to a competitor, and asked for your phone or email records to assess that possibility in good faith, while assuring you of privacy, and you refused - you would not have a leg to stand on. It's funny how brave some people are on the Internet regarding how they would stand up to their employer. Very easy to be brave on an anonymous forum. Heck, we don't even bat an eye when we hear about all the stuff the NSA is doing, which is blatantly unconstitutional.You can argue about the stupid details of this fiasco. The single most important aspect is the fact they put themselves above the league by refusing to cooperate. There is no good answer for that refusal to cooperate, and they are getting ##### slapped more for that than for anything else. They can whine all they want and pay for lawyers and post 20,000 word "rebuttals", and people who don't know any better can maintain they should go to court, blah, blah,blah.

This is cut and dry. The league has complete authority in this case. The only reason they will truncate the suspension is self serving - to maintain revenue from a potentially big Dallas-NE game. If they have integrity, they will deny the appeal. But the NFL lost integrity a long time ago.

Here's the bottom line - the NFL picks and chooses what issues it wants to prosecute. You give Ted Wells 4 months and $5 million and he would find dirt on Mother Theresa.You people are absolutely blind to the ridiculous unfairness in all of this. The League hates Belichik, they're tired of him kicking their ###, and they lobbied Goodell to bury the Pats. If the Broncos were investigated like this when they taped the 49ers walkthrough in 2010, it is more probable than not that Wells would have come up with justification for just as harsh a punishment as the Pats got.

Oh come on you don't actually believe that.

That is terrible. If this was the case and you did believe the league was ganging up on the Pats it would be because they brought it upon themselves for mistakes they have made.

This is no different than a player who continuously delivers cheap shots or continuously makes bad decisions and then cries the league is out to get him when he delivers yet another cheap shot or makes another bad mistake and is more severely punished.

 

[Run It Up]

Brady's reaction does not pass the smell test. If he were "innocent", he, like any human being, would be proclaiming his innocence loudly and with a bullhorn, esp after being suspended.

I can't believe the lengths Brady and Kraft are going to here.

They have definitely made a mountain out of a mole hill.

I see. Brady looks guilty for not fighting this enough and for fighting it too much.

They should take the worst draft pick penalty ever given by the nfl without a fight because they are the ones who have made the mountain out of the mole hill, because an innocent person wouldn't fight this.

this is like moleculo saying it would be impossible for a group of people to test 12 balls in four minutes, but believing that one guy could sneak twelve balls into a bathroom, deflate them to a uniform psi that was just slightly lower than they started since even the measurements on the more damning gauge suggested they were only .2 to .5 psi lower than they ought to be, get them all back into the bag, wash up and get out of the bathroom without getting caught in a minute forty flat when they had twenty plus minutes until game time.

The standard of incredulity towards the Patriots is just ridiculous compared to the believability you guys assign to Wells and the NFL. It's obviously much easier to believe that the Pats are the bad guys here and I don't blame you one bit, but if you care enough about the topic to read and post in a 200 page thread about it then at least try to think through what you're saying.

What I am struggling to see from the Pats side is why would Goodell want to hurt his product by suspending Brady (one of the most popular guys in the NFL) and getting into a war with Kraft one of the most powerful owners in the NFL unless what he thought they did was deserved of such a harsh punishment.

You think Goodell wanted this to become a giant mess? Blaming Goodell for this mess is ludicrous. Once again it is failing to acknowledge that your team, and players made the mistake in the first place. I am guessing he did not want this to be drawn out in the media. The Pats have created smoke yet again and we all know where there is smoke there is usually fire.

Trying to blame Goodell for his is down right laughable and quite frankly ignorant.

I don't think it is Goodell, I think it is a select few others and Goodell has little recourse against them so hes more or less forced to play along. He may not even been aware originally.

Irsay, Kensil, Grigson, Blandino to name a few.

 

[Jercules]

Brady's reaction does not pass the smell test. If he were "innocent", he, like any human being, would be proclaiming his innocence loudly and with a bullhorn, esp after being suspended.

I can't believe the lengths Brady and Kraft are going to here.

They have definitely made a mountain out of a mole hill.

I see. Brady looks guilty for not fighting this enough and for fighting it too much.

They should take the worst draft pick penalty ever given by the nfl without a fight because they are the ones who have made the mountain out of the mole hill, because an innocent person wouldn't fight this.

this is like moleculo saying it would be impossible for a group of people to test 12 balls in four minutes, but believing that one guy could sneak twelve balls into a bathroom, deflate them to a uniform psi that was just slightly lower than they started since even the measurements on the more damning gauge suggested they were only .2 to .5 psi lower than they ought to be, get them all back into the bag, wash up and get out of the bathroom without getting caught in a minute forty flat when they had twenty plus minutes until game time.

The standard of incredulity towards the Patriots is just ridiculous compared to the believability you guys assign to Wells and the NFL. It's obviously much easier to believe that the Pats are the bad guys here and I don't blame you one bit, but if you care enough about the topic to read and post in a 200 page thread about it then at least try to think through what you're saying.

What I am struggling to see from the Pats side is why would Goodell want to hurt his product by suspending Brady (one of the most popular guys in the NFL) and getting into a war with Kraft one of the most powerful owners in the NFL unless what he thought they did was deserved of such a harsh punishment.

You think Goodell wanted this to become a giant mess? Blaming Goodell for this mess is ludicrous. Once again it is failing to acknowledge that your team, and players made the mistake in the first place. I am guessing he did not want this to be drawn out in the media. The Pats have created smoke yet again and we all know where there is smoke there is usually fire.

Trying to blame Goodell for his is down right laughable and quite frankly ignorant.

Goodell has 32 owners and various executives to answer to, almost all of whom want to see the Patriots fried. Then there's his customers, the fans, most of whom also want to see the Patriots fried (largely because of false reports when the story broke--reports that the league could have clarified but didn't--but nevermind that).

Beyond all that, Goodell has his own precedent to live up to. The Pats are getting shafted so bad with deflategate largely because they were shafted so bad with spygate.

 

[cstu]

E-Poll Market Research released findings Friday on a poll conducted this week that asked more than 1,000 people representative of the U.S. population what they thought about Brady.

The company's E-Score celebrity index shows that 47 percent of those surveyed now say they don't like Brady.

The average athlete among the more than 1,500 athletes in E-Poll's database is liked by 86 percent of those surveyed.

Brady's 53 percent like-to-47 percent dislike ratio is the exact ratio that those surveyed by E-Poll currently gave Tiger Woods.

http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/12892245/poll-shows-new-england-patriots-qb-tom-brady-popularity-plummets-53-percent

 

[12punch]

steph stradley gonna be on a seattle station to chat about this at 2p central

steph is crushing it

'looks like a set up and a scam'

'maight as well say the pats live in a pineapple under the sea'

 

[Ojaays]

Apparently, this is Brady's appeal letter

Somebody read it and tell me if I should read it

https://nflpaweb.blob.core.windows.net/media/Default/PDFs/Media%20Resources/Brady_Appeal_Letter.pdf

I can tell you, you don't need to read it, because even if he admitted to doing it, you still would say he didn't or had a VERY good reason for doing it and shouldn't be penalized.I'm convinced you're related to someone on that team.

 

[General Tso]

Nobody has mentioned it, bc the Patriots have suppressed that information. They have obstructed any investigation. So none of us know the real extent of what went on.

That in itself is justification for disciplinary action.

Try taking that approach with your boss and see how far it gets you.

My employer has never asked for my personal phone records. If they did, I would say no. If they suspended me for that, I would probably talk to a lawyer.

If your boss legitimately thought you had, for instance, passed sensitive information to a competitor, and asked for your phone or email records to assess that possibility in good faith, while assuring you of privacy, and you refused - you would not have a leg to stand on. It's funny how brave some people are on the Internet regarding how they would stand up to their employer. Very easy to be brave on an anonymous forum. Heck, we don't even bat an eye when we hear about all the stuff the NSA is doing, which is blatantly unconstitutional.You can argue about the stupid details of this fiasco. The single most important aspect is the fact they put themselves above the league by refusing to cooperate. There is no good answer for that refusal to cooperate, and they are getting ##### slapped more for that than for anything else. They can whine all they want and pay for lawyers and post 20,000 word "rebuttals", and people who don't know any better can maintain they should go to court, blah, blah,blah.

This is cut and dry. The league has complete authority in this case. The only reason they will truncate the suspension is self serving - to maintain revenue from a potentially big Dallas-NE game. If they have integrity, they will deny the appeal. But the NFL lost integrity a long time ago.

Here's the bottom line - the NFL picks and chooses what issues it wants to prosecute. You give Ted Wells 4 months and $5 million and he would find dirt on Mother Theresa.You people are absolutely blind to the ridiculous unfairness in all of this. The League hates Belichik, they're tired of him kicking their ###, and they lobbied Goodell to bury the Pats. If the Broncos were investigated like this when they taped the 49ers walkthrough in 2010, it is more probable than not that Wells would have come up with justification for just as harsh a punishment as the Pats got.

Oh come on you don't actually believe that.That is terrible. If this was the case and you did believe the league was ganging up on the Pats it would be because they brought it upon themselves for mistakes they have made.

This is no different than a player who continuously delivers cheap shots or continuously makes bad decisions and then cries the league is out to get him when he delivers yet another cheap shot or makes another bad mistake and is more severely punished.

You think it's coincidence that deflategate happens the week after the Ravens game, you know, when the Pats rubbed Harbaugh's nose in it for not knowing the rule book?

 

[BigSteelThrill]

You think it's coincidence that deflategate happens the week after the Ravens game, you know, when the Pats rubbed Harbaugh's nose in not knowing the rule book?

Another conspiracy. AWESOME!

 

[12punch]

.

You can argue about the stupid details of this fiasco. The single most important aspect is the fact they put themselves above the league by refusing to cooperate. There is no good answer for that refusal to cooperate, and they are getting ##### slapped more for that than for anything else. They can whine all they want and pay for lawyers and post 20,000 word "rebuttals", and people who don't know any better can maintain they should go to court, blah, blah,blah.

This is cut and dry. The league has complete authority in this case. The only reason they will truncate the suspension is self serving - to maintain revenue from a potentially big Dallas-NE game. If they have integrity, they will deny the appeal. But the NFL lost integrity a long time ago.

you can continue to parrot this as often as you like but it won't make it fact.

the pats cooperated as detailed in previous pages --- stop spouting nonsense

just because you wandered into the carnival barker's tent doesn't mean the rest of us want to hear about the bearded lady.

Ok fine, spout your ad hominem as much as you want.

You are clearly delusional if you maintain the Patriots and Brady cooperated. It is near indisputable they did not cooperate, and was even cited in the letter, appropriately, as part of the reason for the suspension.

I will refer to a favorite verse - Proverbs 26:4

steph stradley gonna be on a seattle station to chat about this at 2p central

your nonsense complaints were just addressed.

again.

by a lawyer.

 

[bostonfred]

What I am struggling to see from the Pats side is why would Goodell want to hurt his product by suspending Brady (one of the most popular guys in the NFL) and getting into a war with Kraft one of the most powerful owners in the NFL unless what he thought they did was deserved of such a harsh punishment.

You think Goodell wanted this to become a giant mess? Blaming Goodell for this mess is ludicrous. Once again it is failing to acknowledge that your team, and players made the mistake in the first place. I am guessing he did not want this to be drawn out in the media. The Pats have created smoke yet again and we all know where there is smoke there is usually fire.

Trying to blame Goodell for his is down right laughable and quite frankly ignorant.

I think it went something like this:- Patriots break out the eligible/ineligible play against the Ravens

- Harbaugh is pissed and says they basically cheated

- Brady says it was legal and Harbaugh should read the rulebook

- Harbaugh says, OK, I know you guys like playing with the softest ball you can and I bet the colts can catch you on a cold day, and makes a phone call

- the Colts say hey, not a bad idea, let's send a letter to the league and get in their head a little

- Kensil sees that letter and forwards it around to people, and individually oversees a shoddy investigation

- the refs have little to no idea what's going on because kensil doesn't want the pats to be warned in advance

- at this point, Goodell doesn't know what's going on, either

- at halftime, they start measuring, and sure enough the Patriot balks are deflated

- then they start testing the Colts balls, and sure enough several of them are delayed, too.

- they stop testing the Colts balls because it doesn't show what they want it to show

- the balls are reinflated, the rest of the game plays out, and nobody knows what happened

- then someone (kensil?) leaks this investigation to the indy newspapers

- with a depressed fanbase, these allegations look like red meat - but then it bows up into a massive superbowl week story.

- leak after leak comes out from unnamed league sources, many completely false, including stories about measurements much worse than any that were actually taken

- Goodell says there will be an investigation, but can't put the toothpaste back in the tube

- Belichick, remembering what happened during spygate when a cameraman standing in the wrong spot turned into false allegations of taping walk throughs and killing babies, holds a press conference to fight this.

- Goodell doesn't respond, because he wants this whole thing to go away. There'll be an investigation.

- kraft is pissed that he's getting left to hang in the wind, and demands an apology if and when the investigation turns up nothing

- the pats win the superbowl with properly inflated balls

- news stories start coming out showing that the pats were probably innocent and that the NFL had botched the whole investigation

- kensil starts taking heat from fans and media who blame him for the leaks

- it becomes clear that a verdict of not guilty would be highly unpopular and make several people in the league look bad, including Goodell

- they hire a hatchet guy to get some good dirt, and he can't find much. The pats cooperate fully

- then they find the dorito dink texts and start hammering the pats with them. Suddenly play time is over and they lawyer up heavily

- the findings come out days before any ruling is made, and the media starts speculating on the punishment

- Goodell lets Vincent dole out the penalty, keeping his hands somewhat clean

- the pats, who still believe they've done nothing wrong, are incredulous with the harshness of the penalty and vow to fight it

- the media cycle ebbs and flows. First everyone thought the pats were guilty. Then they said the penalty was too harsh. People started to question the process. Some guys, like Albert breer, double down on the leagues side. Others, like Jim and pat on NFL radio, question the league more.

I don't think Goodell singlehandedly ordered a take down of the pats. I agree that this isn't what he wanted. There were a lot of moving parts here. I do think the penalty is too harsh but I'm not on here advancing a narrative that Goodell is to blame for this whole thing, so criticizing me for that is just putting words in my mouth.

I also don't think the pats are without blame. Brady should never have said read the rulebook. kraft should never have demanded am apology. And honestly, I do suspect that the Patriots deliberately put those balls as low as they could, especially when it's cold. I think they understand the advantage. But I also think they inflated the balls to close to 12.5 and told the refs to pump them up to 12.5 when they have them over. I don't think they had enough time to use a needle to manually deflate them in the men's room after I don't think the readings show that they were deflated by enough to suggest that any manual deflation had to have happened. And if that's the case, then they certainly weren't deflated enough for the pats to have risked manually deflating the balls game in, game out - by like .3 psi? when the balks were going to deflate naturally by close to 2psi by halftime?

It seems a lot easier to believe that the readings used by the official, who said he measured the balls at 12.5, on the gauge the official said he used, which would naturally have led to the measurements that they saw at halftime... than it is to believe the wells report, that the ref was wrong about which gauge he used, that they stopped measuring the Colts balls because they suddenly understood the ideal gas law after measuring 16 balls, that someone manually deflated 12 balls at halftime in a minute forty flat, and all the things necessary to believe the deflation narrative. I'm not even saying definitively that the pats never deflated a ball. I just don't believe the supposed evidence that they did it that day. And I think the people who do believe it are generally the ones who haven't looked that deep into it or were previously inclined to believe that the pats were guilty.

 

[12punch]

There's a 'broken windows theory' aspect to this no one is discussing (if a building has a broken window--and a jungle lawn, and peeling paint, etc.--and that window isn't fixed within a given time, it's basically a certainty that soon all the windows will be broken. The broken window sends a signal that nobody cares about this building, so people feel free to vandalize when they otherwise wouldn't).

In this case, the Wells report makes it exceedingly obvious that the NFL didn't give a hoot about testing and securing the balls before games. A hyper-competitive guy like Brady sees that, wants his balls how he wants them, and decides to take matters into his own hands.

Doesn't make it okay: he probably deserves the $25,000 fine such an infraction supposedly warrants as stated by the Wells report.

I think that's interesting, and may even be applicable, although not as you intended.

you say people feel free to vandalize a house once they've seen others do the same, even though they ordinarily wouldn't condone this kind of negative behavior...?

maybe when the pats took that last punishment, which was in accordance with kraft's agreement as an owner, I believe, they were sending the wrong signals to this mob.