PBS Frontline: Prison State: The high cost of incarceration in America (1 Viewer)

[Doctor Detroit]

"We are putting people in prison we're pissed off at, when we should be putting people in prison we are afraid of." -Warden of Louisville jail

My link

America’s historically high rate of incarceration is increasingly questioned by some state leaders, justice officials and experts. And it’s back in focus this week thanks to two major reports looking at these questions. Tomorrow, the National Academy of Sciences will release a report on the causes and consequences of incarceration’s four-fold rise in the U.S. over the past 40 years. It’s also the subject of tonight’s Frontline, “Prison State,” the second of a two-part series about those who are locked up behind bars, now totaling more than 2.3 million people in the U.S.

The documentary profiles the path of four people caught up in the cycle of Kentucky’s criminal justice system. The four come from Beecher Terrace, a housing project in the west end of Louisville where one out of every six people cycle in and out of prison every year.

Over a million dollars to lock up a bi-polar guy who says he operates better in prison. We throw was too much money at prisons in this country, and I think that quote above sums up my feelings on the subject. Drug users, those in for petty crimes, those in for prostitution, etc. Don't even get me started on minors locked up for behavioral issues, what a waste. U.S. incarcerates 25% of the world's prisoners.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

 

[Jayrod]

I think the solution is to increase executions.

 

[Das Boot]

I'm going to abstain from forming an opinion until I read the debate on this topic between johnjohn and Timchochet.

 

[Ilov80s]

This mentality has worked its way into the school system. We don't incarcerate, but suspend. Suspensions are supposed to be for violence, weapons and drugs... Like your quote says, "things we are afraid of." However, many schools suspend kids over things like caught using their cell phone, too many tardies to class, not wearing their ID,etc.

 

[(HULK)]

I've got mixed feelings on this topic.

On one hand, I think we very obviously have way too many people in jail. The simple USE of drugs should never result in anything more than a ticket imo... same for prostitution (excluding those forcing others into sexual slavery). Beyond that though, what do we stop incarcerating for? Violent criminals should be removed from society. Molsters should never walk a step of freedom once they've been caught (they can't be rehabilitated imo, permenant removal from access to children should be a requirement). White collar criminals who stole large sums and then spent it or offshored it where we can't touch it... they need prison too, I'm not okay with them just paying a fine. So, who does that leave? Letting out the dope smokers and johns/hos... I bet we're still incarcerating more than any other nation.

 

[Henry Ford]

I've got mixed feelings on this topic.

On one hand, I think we very obviously have way too many people in jail. The simple USE of drugs should never result in anything more than a ticket imo... same for prostitution (excluding those forcing others into sexual slavery). Beyond that though, what do we stop incarcerating for? Violent criminals should be removed from society. Molsters should never walk a step of freedom once they've been caught (they can't be rehabilitated imo, permenant removal from access to children should be a requirement). White collar criminals who stole large sums and then spent it or offshored it where we can't touch it... they need prison too, I'm not okay with them just paying a fine. So, who does that leave? Letting out the dope smokers and johns/hos... I bet we're still incarcerating more than any other nation.

I think just the drug users would drop our prison numbers substantially.

 

[DiStefano]

The fascinating thing is that the crime rate has been falling for more than 20 years. Some have argued, with some logic, that the amount of incarceration has removed criminals from the streets. However, the crime rate has also plummeted in states which have reduced their prison population. Better policing, the increasing use of electronic security, the publicity around homeowners with guns, the declining use of crack cocaine, even the election of Barack Obama may all have played a part.

There is no doubt that we incarcerate too many people who pose little, if any, danger to society.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

I think the solution is to increase executions.

Yes and ask for volunteers. I'm sure some of the lifers would step up.

 

[comfortably numb]

Isn't part of the issue with removing a large population from our jails the effect it will have on all the funding said jails currently receive?

Meaning jails would lose a lot of their customers?

 

[Henry Ford]

Isn't part of the issue with removing a large population from our jails the effect it will have on all the funding said jails currently receive?

Meaning jails would lose a lot of their customers?

Yep.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Isn't part of the issue with removing a large population from our jails the effect it will have on all the funding said jails currently receive?

Meaning jails would lose a lot of their customers?

I know this is a problem with private run prisons. Prisoners =money. The public funded prisons the guards would prefer less prisoners. Less prisoners = less work

 

[lod01]

I think the solution is to increase executions.

Absolutely. Gotta make room for future inmates. We should have a cap on # of inmates housed on any given day. If new inmates brought in exceed that limit, we execute the same number of death row inmates. No need to build any new prisons that way.

 

[lod01]

I think the solution is to increase executions.

Yes and ask for volunteers. I'm sure some of the lifers would step up.

Actually these ####es won't step up.

 

[Tecumseh]

Isn't part of the issue with removing a large population from our jails the effect it will have on all the funding said jails currently receive?

Meaning jails would lose a lot of their customers?

Exactly right, especially considering the number of states that contract with private prisons. Then those corporations are directly involved in judicial elections.

 

[NCCommish]

We need to end private prisons. Perverse incentives are built into those contracts that actually make it expensive for the state to not have people in cells. It's ridiculous. There is movement to defund private prison corps much like what was done to companies that invested in South Africa during Apartheid. Let's get back to the state running prisons and actually get some rehabilitation going again.

 

[matttyl]

U.S. incarcerates 25% of the world's prisoners.

Yet we only have about 4.5% of the world's population. That's crazy.

 

[humpback]

Isn't part of the issue with removing a large population from our jails the effect it will have on all the funding said jails currently receive?

Meaning jails would lose a lot of their customers?

I know this is a problem with private run prisons. Prisoners =money. The public funded prisons the guards would prefer less prisoners. Less prisoners = less work

Until they close a facility, then it means not only less work, but no pay (not just guards either).

Pretty sure both want more prisoners as it equals more job security.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Isn't part of the issue with removing a large population from our jails the effect it will have on all the funding said jails currently receive?

Meaning jails would lose a lot of their customers?

I know this is a problem with private run prisons. Prisoners =money. The public funded prisons the guards would prefer less prisoners. Less prisoners = less work

I think this is a huge part of the problem. government funding is one thing, but as soon as it becomes profitable to incarcerate people, that is another level of scary.

 

[jonessed]

Isn't part of the issue with removing a large population from our jails the effect it will have on all the funding said jails currently receive?

Meaning jails would lose a lot of their customers?

I know this is a problem with private run prisons. Prisoners =money. The public funded prisons the guards would prefer less prisoners. Less prisoners = less work

I think this is a huge part of the problem. government funding is one thing, but as soon as it becomes profitable to incarcerate people, that is another level of scary.

It's no different than public union prison guards pushing for more jobs. California's three strikes law's biggest proponents were law enforcement unions.

 

[whoknew]

We need to end private prisons. Perverse incentives are built into those contracts that actually make it expensive for the state to not have people in cells. It's ridiculous. There is movement to defund private prison corps much like what was done to companies that invested in South Africa during Apartheid. Let's get back to the state running prisons and actually get some rehabilitation going again.

While I completely agree with this, its always a hard sell. Its easier for politicians to sell being "tough on crime." Attempting to lower recidivism doesn't sell. Its hard to convince people to spend tax dollars on prisoners. Even if it is both in their best interest and the right thing to do.

 

[jonessed]

U.S. incarcerates 25% of the world's prisoners.

Yet we only have about 4.5% of the world's population. That's crazy.

Our rates are too high, but most of the world's population isn't in first world countries. That's not really a viable comparison.

It would probably be cheaper and easier to move to China's model, but I don't think it would get much support.

 

[NCCommish]

We need to end private prisons. Perverse incentives are built into those contracts that actually make it expensive for the state to not have people in cells. It's ridiculous. There is movement to defund private prison corps much like what was done to companies that invested in South Africa during Apartheid. Let's get back to the state running prisons and actually get some rehabilitation going again.

While I completely agree with this, its always a hard sell. Its easier for politicians to sell being "tough on crime." Attempting to lower recidivism doesn't sell. Its hard to convince people to spend tax dollars on prisoners. Even if it is both in their best interest and the right thing to do.

All too true

 

[NCCommish]

U.S. incarcerates 25% of the world's prisoners.

Yet we only have about 4.5% of the world's population. That's crazy.

Our rates are too high, but most of the world's population isn't in first world countries. That's not really a viable comparison.

It would probably be cheaper and easier to move to China's model, but I don't think it would get much support.

So compare us to just First World G-8 nations. The results don't get any better.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

U.S. incarcerates 25% of the world's prisoners.

Yet we only have about 4.5% of the world's population. That's crazy.

Our rates are too high, but most of the world's population isn't in first world countries. That's not really a viable comparison.

It would probably be cheaper and easier to move to China's model, but I don't think it would get much support.

So compare us to just First World G-8 nations. The results don't get any better.

Exactly.

 

[urbanhack]

We need to end private prisons. Perverse incentives are built into those contracts that actually make it expensive for the state to not have people in cells. It's ridiculous. There is movement to defund private prison corps much like what was done to companies that invested in South Africa during Apartheid. Let's get back to the state running prisons and actually get some rehabilitation going again.

 

[Jayrod]

So I was looking up incarceration rates and indeed the US is #1. However the #2 nation is Seychelles which I'd never heard of, so I looked it up on Wiki. It is apparently an island nation in the Indian Ocean north of Madagascar.

Very interesting was this tidbit under the heading "Culture":

Seychellois society is essentially matriarchal. Mothers tend to be dominant in the household, controlling most expenditures and looking after the interests of the children. Unwed mothers are the societal norm, and the law requires fathers to support their children. Men are important for their earning ability, but their domestic role is relatively peripheral. Older women usually have financial support from family members living at home or contributions from the earnings of grown children

 

[Jayrod]

Also, according to Wikipedia's incarceration rates page, North Korea is probably our biggest rival.

Note: Little information exists regarding North Korea's incarceration rate. The U.S. Committee for Human Rights in North Korea estimates 150,000 to 200,000 incarcerated based on testimony of defectors from the state police bureau, which roughly equals 600-800 people incarcerated per 100,000.[4] For more info see Prisons in North Korea.

 

[Josie Maran]

U.S. incarcerates 25% of the world's prisoners.

Yet we only have about 4.5% of the world's population. That's crazy.

Our rates are too high, but most of the world's population isn't in first world countries. That's not really a viable comparison.It would probably be cheaper and easier to move to China's model, but I don't think it would get much support.

What is China's model?

 

[jon_mx]

The US is also responsible for about 25% of the world's CO2 emissions. Coincidence? I don't think so.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

U.S. incarcerates 25% of the world's prisoners.

Yet we only have about 4.5% of the world's population. That's crazy.

Our rates are too high, but most of the world's population isn't in first world countries. That's not really a viable comparison.It would probably be cheaper and easier to move to China's model, but I don't think it would get much support.

What is China's model?

they cane/ beat the #### out of their criminals , causing them to not want to be repeat offenders. We are to soft up front.

 

[Josie Maran]

U.S. incarcerates 25% of the world's prisoners.

Yet we only have about 4.5% of the world's population. That's crazy.

Our rates are too high, but most of the world's population isn't in first world countries. That's not really a viable comparison.It would probably be cheaper and easier to move to China's model, but I don't think it would get much support.

What is China's model?

they cane/ beat the #### out of their criminals , causing them to not want to be repeat offenders. We are to soft up front.

Gotcha. Bet they don't have any crime over there.

 

[Ted Mullins]

This topic seems to have gained some good traction in the last few years but it seems like there are still a lot of fairly reasonable people who think that any sort of evaluation or reform of the current system is not worthwhile because anyone who is in jail must be a "bad guy".

I have no clue if this would be possible or how it'd work but if they are going to go the private prison route, it'd be nice to see them incentivize rehabilitation and reduced recidivism.

 

[Henry Ford]

U.S. incarcerates 25% of the world's prisoners.

Yet we only have about 4.5% of the world's population. That's crazy.

Our rates are too high, but most of the world's population isn't in first world countries. That's not really a viable comparison.It would probably be cheaper and easier to move to China's model, but I don't think it would get much support.

What is China's model?

When they execute you, they send a bill to your family to pay for the bullet.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

U.S. incarcerates 25% of the world's prisoners.

Yet we only have about 4.5% of the world's population. That's crazy.

Our rates are too high, but most of the world's population isn't in first world countries. That's not really a viable comparison.It would probably be cheaper and easier to move to China's model, but I don't think it would get much support.

What is China's model?

they cane/ beat the #### out of their criminals , causing them to not want to be repeat offenders. We are to soft up front.

Gotcha. Bet they don't have any crime over there.

Bet they have less repeat offenders.

 

[jon_mx]

This topic seems to have gained some good traction in the last few years but it seems like there are still a lot of fairly reasonable people who think that any sort of evaluation or reform of the current system is not worthwhile because anyone who is in jail must be a "bad guy".

I have no clue if this would be possible or how it'd work but if they are going to go the private prison route, it'd be nice to see them incentivize rehabilitation and reduced recidivism.

We need reality TV shows in each prison where the people can vote which prisoners get released. :

 

[Josie Maran]

U.S. incarcerates 25% of the world's prisoners.

Yet we only have about 4.5% of the world's population. That's crazy.

Our rates are too high, but most of the world's population isn't in first world countries. That's not really a viable comparison.It would probably be cheaper and easier to move to China's model, but I don't think it would get much support.

What is China's model?

they cane/ beat the #### out of their criminals , causing them to not want to be repeat offenders. We are to soft up front.

Gotcha. Bet they don't have any crime over there.

Bet they have less repeat offenders.

Ya think?

 

[NCCommish]

U.S. incarcerates 25% of the world's prisoners.

Yet we only have about 4.5% of the world's population. That's crazy.

Our rates are too high, but most of the world's population isn't in first world countries. That's not really a viable comparison.It would probably be cheaper and easier to move to China's model, but I don't think it would get much support.

What is China's model?

they cane/ beat the #### out of their criminals , causing them to not want to be repeat offenders. We are to soft up front.

Gotcha. Bet they don't have any crime over there.

Bet they have less repeat offenders.

Despite drug dealing being a death penalty crime they still have drug dealers.

 

[Johnnymac]

Problem is in this country we continually cut funding for social programs that could possibly help people and maybe keep them out of prison, such as education, healthcare, etc. It's interesting that we seem to always have funds for prisons.

 

[NCCommish]

Problem is in this country we continually cut funding for social programs that could possibly help people and maybe keep them out of prison, such as education, healthcare, etc. It's interesting that we seem to always have funds for prisons.

Cuts to mental health care and the draconian war on drugs are the two biggest drivers IMO.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

U.S. incarcerates 25% of the world's prisoners.

Yet we only have about 4.5% of the world's population. That's crazy.

Our rates are too high, but most of the world's population isn't in first world countries. That's not really a viable comparison.It would probably be cheaper and easier to move to China's model, but I don't think it would get much support.

What is China's model?

they cane/ beat the #### out of their criminals , causing them to not want to be repeat offenders. We are to soft up front.

Gotcha. Bet they don't have any crime over there.

Bet they have less repeat offenders.

Despite drug dealing being a death penalty crime they still have drug dealers.

Well obviously you know there will always be crime........but keeping it down to a minimum should be the goal. That is why I said less not zero.

 

[Dickies]

We need to end private prisons. Perverse incentives are built into those contracts that actually make it expensive for the state to not have people in cells. It's ridiculous. There is movement to defund private prison corps much like what was done to companies that invested in South Africa during Apartheid. Let's get back to the state running prisons and actually get some rehabilitation going again.

I completely agree with this, but let's be honest. This is not the major source of the problem.

 

[lod01]

Despite drug dealing being a death penalty crime they still have drug dealers.

Yeah? They won't be arrested twice now will they?

 

[Johnnymac]

We really need to start funding education in this country. It's a disgrace that a country supposedly as rich as the US has so many uneducated people living here. I'm not talking just beef up the funding either. I'm talking free education all the way through college. There should always be an effort to fund education over just about everything else. If we dont educate our citizens, which is what has been happening for years in this country, then we are going to have the problems that have developed...crime, drugs, etc. There are so many people here that do not have a hope in hell from the time they are born of ever amounting to anything. Nobody cares. It's going to get worse so if people think prisons are full now, just wait. We will probably need more prisons then land available to build them on in another 30 years.

 

[lod01]

We really need to start funding education in this country. It's a disgrace that a country supposedly as rich as the US has so many uneducated people living here. I'm not talking just beef up the funding either. I'm talking free education all the way through college. There should always be an effort to fund education over just about everything else. If we dont educate our citizens, which is what has been happening for years in this country, then we are going to have the problems that have developed...crime, drugs, etc. There are so many people here that do not have a hope in hell from the time they are born of ever amounting to anything. Nobody cares. It's going to get worse so if people think prisons are full now, just wait. We will probably need more prisons then land available to build them on in another 30 years.

Unfortuantely, I'll repeat, stupid people are breeding at a faster rate than the normal humans. Those people don't want to learn and definitely don't want to work. Their education is from the low life that brought them into the world and they learn quickly that not working and living off the gov't is the gig for them.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

The US is also responsible for about 25% of the world's CO2 emissions. Coincidence? I don't think so.

I love correlating data.

 

[urbanhack]

We really need to start funding education in this country. It's a disgrace that a country supposedly as rich as the US has so many uneducated people living here. I'm not talking just beef up the funding either. I'm talking free education all the way through college. There should always be an effort to fund education over just about everything else. If we dont educate our citizens, which is what has been happening for years in this country, then we are going to have the problems that have developed...crime, drugs, etc. There are so many people here that do not have a hope in hell from the time they are born of ever amounting to anything. Nobody cares. It's going to get worse so if people think prisons are full now, just wait. We will probably need more prisons then land available to build them on in another 30 years.

Unfortuantely, I'll repeat, stupid people are breeding at a faster rate than the normal humans. Those people don't want to learn and definitely don't want to work. Their education is from the low life that brought them into the world and they learn quickly that not working and living off the gov't is the gig for them.

"Those people" are the way they are because of the environments our society has created for them. It's a cycle. Unless you think "those people" will act a certain way regardless of how and where they are raised.

 

[Kal El]

I've got mixed feelings on this topic.

On one hand, I think we very obviously have way too many people in jail. The simple USE of drugs should never result in anything more than a ticket imo... same for prostitution (excluding those forcing others into sexual slavery). Beyond that though, what do we stop incarcerating for? Violent criminals should be removed from society. Molsters should never walk a step of freedom once they've been caught (they can't be rehabilitated imo, permenant removal from access to children should be a requirement). White collar criminals who stole large sums and then spent it or offshored it where we can't touch it... they need prison too, I'm not okay with them just paying a fine. So, who does that leave? Letting out the dope smokers and johns/hos... I bet we're still incarcerating more than any other nation.

Some nations have other punishments for things like theft, and I think if we focus more on rehabilitation, the incarceration issue can eventually solve itself.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

We really need to start funding education in this country. It's a disgrace that a country supposedly as rich as the US has so many uneducated people living here. I'm not talking just beef up the funding either. I'm talking free education all the way through college. There should always be an effort to fund education over just about everything else. If we dont educate our citizens, which is what has been happening for years in this country, then we are going to have the problems that have developed...crime, drugs, etc. There are so many people here that do not have a hope in hell from the time they are born of ever amounting to anything. Nobody cares. It's going to get worse so if people think prisons are full now, just wait. We will probably need more prisons then land available to build them on in another 30 years.

Unfortuantely, I'll repeat, stupid people are breeding at a faster rate than the normal humans. Those people don't want to learn and definitely don't want to work. Their education is from the low life that brought them into the world and they learn quickly that not working and living off the gov't is the gig for them.

"Those people" are the way they are because of the environments our society has created for them. It's a cycle. Unless you think "those people" will act a certain way regardless of how and where they are raised.

If you watched the Frontline, three of the four cases they looked at were environment/mental health related. The two young girls stories and the schizophrenic stories were pretty heartbreaking. The guy is released from prison with 30 days worth of his medicine, no money, no chance to get a job with a felony conviction, and no place to live. How the hell is that guy not going to end up back in jail? Those girls are both screwed, they are going to end up pregnant or addicted to drugs, or both. The ghetto eats those kind of people up, they rarely make it.

 

[matttyl]

We really need to start funding education in this country. It's a disgrace that a country supposedly as rich as the US has so many uneducated people living here. I'm not talking just beef up the funding either. I'm talking free education all the way through college. There should always be an effort to fund education over just about everything else. If we dont educate our citizens, which is what has been happening for years in this country, then we are going to have the problems that have developed...crime, drugs, etc. There are so many people here that do not have a hope in hell from the time they are born of ever amounting to anything. Nobody cares. It's going to get worse so if people think prisons are full now, just wait. We will probably need more prisons then land available to build them on in another 30 years.

Unfortuantely, I'll repeat, stupid people are breeding at a faster rate than the normal humans. Those people don't want to learn and definitely don't want to work. Their education is from the low life that brought them into the world and they learn quickly that not working and living off the gov't is the gig for them.

"Stupid people" as well as "normal humans" can both go to a public library, correct? Education opportunities are out there for anyone willing to learn. Lots of people just aren't willing, they don't care.