People with mental disorders can buy guns now (1 Viewer)

[NCCommish]

Research has shown on the relationship between gun violence and mental illness shows that the vast majority of mentally ill individuals are not violent or even suicidal. Our group at Duke recently published a study of approximately 82,000 people diagnosed with serious mental illnesses in Florida between 2002 and 2011. They found that those with serious mental health disorders with records in the public behavioral health system were no more likely than the general adult population in Florida to use a gun to harm others (about 213 vs. 217 gun crimes per 100,000 people per year), and they were only slightly more likely to die in a gun-related suicide (about 13 vs. 9 gun suicides per 100,000 people per year). Thus, people with mental illnesses are no more dangerous to others when they have equal access to guns.

source - Washington Post

I never said they were more violent. I don't believe they are. What I did say was that people with diminished capacity make poor decisions. A poor decision with a gun can lead to dead people.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

If you are incapable of making the appropriate decisions with your money we are just going to assume that inability doesn't extend to your ability to make decisions in real time under perceived threat of safety of self? Anything to make sure we arm the #### out of everyone I guess as that is going so swimmingly well in this country. And while I like them the ACLU are not always right. Lastly we all know damn well the GOP doesn't give a #### about the mentally ill. They prove it regularly.

I might argue otherwise, they did elect at least one such person to the Presidency.  If that is not caring, what is?

 

[Quint]

I give money regularly to the ACLU, but I disagree with them on a few things. This is apparently one of them.

Everytime we have a mass shooting in this country the bad guy is either a terrorist or mentally ill. So I don't think that either should be able to own a gun. I look for ways to accomplish that without interfering in gun rights for normal people. This particular way seems perfectly reasonable to me.

yet some 66% of all gun-related deaths in the US are suicide. 

by not allowing the "mentally ill" to purchase firearms are we preemptively saving them from themselves? 

 

[Jayrod]

Quick question for those who think this is OK- are you for the travel ban? Just curious.

I think this is the right move and I'm not for the travel ban.

 

[Vanilla Guerrilla]

yet some 66% of all gun-related deaths in the US are suicide. 

by not allowing the "mentally ill" to purchase firearms are we preemptively saving them from themselves? 

We'd have to ban them from bridges also.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

As NC pointed out, this is a blanket measure for those incapable of signing their own Social Security checks due to mental illness. Why can't we have a blanket measure for them?

What I want to know is why the Social Security Administration has not figured out direct deposit.

 

[James Daulton]

What I want to know is why the Social Security Administration has not figured out direct deposit.

Maybe because all the SS money will be dry up soon, so why bother?

 

[crewmember]

I'm a leftie on most things, don't care much for guns and think you could make the well regulated militia argument quite reasonably, but I support this bill like the ACLU does. I hate discrimination more than guns, and I believe in protecting people's constitutional rights. There are other groups of people that would lower gun violence by restricting gun access to them by a lot more than the mentally ill. this may have been posted(don't tell anyone else i shared a vox article, yuck) http://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/2/6/14522132/gun-control-disabilities-republicans-nra-obama

 

[Sinn Fein]

Is it?

Is it?

Is it?

 

It is now...

 

[Galileo]

Hey here is some more unhinged for you. 200 years of jurisprudence says there is no universal right to private gun ownership enshrined in the Constitution. This idea that there is is one of the biggest cons ever foisted off on this country and we pay for it in blood daily.

200 years of Remington begs to differ...

 

[BowieMercs]

Or people could read just little.

This is indefensible. Don't start with the slippery slope people, they actually have rules involving slippery slopes. 

No worries... my friends on the far left assure me the "gun show loophole" countermands any rule, regulation or law I might feel a need to question.  

 

[BowieMercs]

As NC pointed out, this is a blanket measure for those incapable of signing their own Social Security checks due to mental illness. Why can't we have a blanket measure for them?

If they can't sign a check, I GUARANTEE they can't fill out a 4473

 

[NCCommish]

200 years of Remington begs to differ...

The day before the Constitution was ratified it was illegal to have a loaded gun in your home in Boston. The day after ratification it was still illegal. So whether or not people were.manufacturing guns shouldn't be confused with an unfettered, universal right to own them and do whatever you want. Because that never existed.

 

[BowieMercs]

The day before the Constitution was ratified it was illegal to have a loaded gun in your home in Boston. The day after ratification it was still illegal. So whether or not people were.manufacturing guns shouldn't be confused with an unfettered, universal right to own them and do whatever you want. Because that never existed.

Not in Boston, apparrently

 

[NCCommish]

If they can't sign a check, I GUARANTEE they can't fill out a 4473

The problem isn't the signing or the filling out. It is about decision making. If you can't trust yourself with a check why should I trust you with a gun?

 

[BowieMercs]

The problem isn't the signing or the filling out. It is about decision making. If you can't trust yourself with a check why should I trust you with a gun?

Stop trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

 

[NCCommish]

Not in Boston, apparrently

Not anywhere. It was standard practice to hand in your guns to local law enforcement when you entered a town. This was upheld many times by the courts. It isn't.just a Hollywood plot device it's history.

 

[BowieMercs]

Not anywhere. It was standard practice to hand in your guns to local law enforcement when you entered a town. This was upheld many times by the courts. It isn't.just a Hollywood plot device it's history.

Everyone didn't live in a town.

 

[NCCommish]

Everyone didn't live in a town.

And that doesn't change the reality of the legal issue one little bit. 

 

[jon_mx]

Everytime we have a mass shooting in this country the bad guy is either a muslim or mentally ill. So I don't think that either should be able to own a gun.

good point

 

[BowieMercs]

And that doesn't change the reality of the legal issue one little bit. 

It does when you imply that nobody in this country ever had a legal right to have loaded weapons in their home.

 

[cockroach]

gotta make sure everyone is strapped for when Russia storms the beaches.

 

[lod001]

This place will be on fire the next time a lunatic shoots up some place and we are way overdue.

 

[Galileo]

The day before the Constitution was ratified it was illegal to have a loaded gun in your home in Boston. The day after ratification it was still illegal. So whether or not people were.manufacturing guns shouldn't be confused with an unfettered, universal right to own them and do whatever you want. Because that never existed.

Right to own <> do whatever you want

Do you believe people have a right to hunt...for sport or for food?

do you believe people have a right to shoot skeet?

Do you believe people have a right to go to the local range and shoot targets?

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

Can people with mental disorders post in this thread now? 

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

If they can't sign a check, I GUARANTEE they can't fill out a 4473

In my experience Bowie, it depends on the color of the check and the form.

Blue...yes 

Green...no :(

Red...maybe...on a good day at least. 

Black & White...don't even go there..not good for stability. 

YMMV

 

[jon_mx]

The day before the Constitution was ratified it was illegal to have a loaded gun in your home in Boston. The day after ratification it was still illegal. So whether or not people were.manufacturing guns shouldn't be confused with an unfettered, universal right to own them and do whatever you want. Because that never existed.

Just because there was a law on the books does not make it constitutional.   Just because there has not been a bunch of cases challenging an individual right to bear arms, does not mean what is clearly stated in the Constitution does not mean what it says.  

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

Sincere response here:

I grew up with guns; hunted; target shot; etc.; and had a carry concealed deadly weapon (CCDW) license in KY for many years, as my job required it.

At one point in my life...from job stress and pressures...I had a mental breakdown...nothing to be ashamed of...and I am not.

At this point in my life, I am still diagnosed with a major mental disorder, but, for the most part, my life continues as normally as it had before, and in some ways it is MUCH more stable.  Of course, this is in part because I have made many changes in my life. I believe I am presently fully capable of handling weapons for things such as hunting & target shooting.

However, I do not want to carry a weapon for defense. The stressors involved in such situations are hard enough to control for the most stable among us. Nor, do I wish to keep a firearm in my home. My reason is this:

Managing a major mental disorder, while very effective, is not a cure. Relapses do occur...and, they are not predictable.  Yes, warning signs exist, and active acknowledgement of warning signs is very important part of management, but they are not foolproof ( ).

In this light, as someone who has experienced madness up close & personal, I really do not have any issue with reasonable, logical restrictions for those who meet certain specific criteria in regards to mental health that can demonstrably be shown to increase self and public safety risk.

I do have problems with many of the false stigmas and general stereotypes that are applied to those diagnosed as mentally ill.

Like in most things in life, in the sphere of the general public, facts are fuzzy and get fuzzier the more esoteric the subject.

With that said, I am not very knowledgeable on this particular law/EO (?), nor on the  broader constitutional repercussions regarding gun restriction for certain classes of the population.

I just know that I don't want a firearm anymore, and I do not find it unreasonable that others would prefer for me to not have one either.

Especially since I am a damn good shot! 

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Sincere response here:

I grew up with guns; hunted; target shot; etc.; and had a carry concealed deadly weapon (CCDW) license in KY for many years, as my job required it.

At one point in my life...from job stress and pressures...I had a mental breakdown...nothing to be ashamed of...and I am not.

At this point in my life, I am still diagnosed with a major mental disorder, but, for the most part, my life continues as normally as it had before, and in some ways it is MUCH more stable.  Of course, this is in part because I have made many changes in my life. I believe I am presently fully capable of handling weapons for things such as hunting & target shooting.

However, I do not want to carry a weapon for defense. The stressors involved in such situations are hard enough to control for the most stable among us. Nor, do I wish to keep a firearm in my home. My reason is this:

Managing a major mental disorder, while very effective, is not a cure. Relapses do occur...and, they are not predictable.  Yes, warning signs exist, and active acknowledgement of warning signs is very important part of management, but they are not foolproof ( ).

In this light, as someone who has experienced madness up close & personal, I really do not have any issue with reasonable, logical restrictions for those who meet certain specific criteria in regards to mental health that can demonstrably be shown to increase self and public safety risk.

I do have problems with many of the false stigmas and general stereotypes that are applied to those diagnosed as mentally ill.

Like in most things in life, in the sphere of the general public, facts are fuzzy and get fuzzier the more esoteric the subject.

With that said, I am not very knowledgeable on this particular law/EO (?), nor on the  broader constitutional repercussions regarding gun restriction for certain classes of the population.

I just know that I don't want a firearm anymore, and I do not find it unreasonable that others would prefer for me to not have one either.

Especially since I am a damn good shot! 

I have had to carry in my occupation(s) and am still allowed to if that were my preference.  My preference is to not do so. My evaluation of risk,  convenience, and utility is that I prefer not to. 

 

[RokNRole]

Can people with mental disorders post in this thread now? 

Never stopped me

 

[BoltBacker]

What other rights should people with mental disorders give up?

The right to vote.

 

[Max Power]

I skipped a lot of this.  Does PTSD count as a "mental disorder"?

 

[Max Power]

Did the sandy hook kid have a mental disorder? 

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

I skipped a lot of this.  Does PTSD count as a "mental disorder"?

I'm not sure Max, but I know many active soldiers & vets with PTSD that sill currently carry in my state.

Whether or not the regulations, as written, prohibit this I do not know.

However, the fact that the actives still do (with the knowledge of command), suggests to me that it is legal.

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

Did the sandy hook kid have a mental disorder? 

Yes...I believe he was earlier diagnosed with Asperger syndrome, but I am not sure...didn't check.

Also, later or deeper analysis may have revealed more or deeper issues.

Again, I don't know the facts...speculation largely.

 

[Dedfin]

Count me as a liberal that doesn't really have a big problem with this

 

[Ilov80s]

I didn't read the article, but I think we should prove people with mental disorders should not be allowed to buy guns and we should do it disorder by disorder. If the article has the proof, let me know, I will read it. 

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

I haven't read the full thread, but I think the fact the ACLU was challenging this law is telling. The ACLU defends all Constitutional rights except for the Second Amendment. It has chosen to ignore that one as part of its mission, which is, I think, hypocritical. 

So the ACLU isn't a gun rights advocate. If anything, it leans the other way.

But they disliked this rule enough to challenge it and align themselves with the NRA in the process. I think that says something.

 

[Max Power]

Yes...I believe he was earlier diagnosed with Asperger syndrome, but I am not sure...didn't check.

Also, later or deeper analysis may have revealed more or deeper issues.

Again, I don't know the facts...speculation largely.

You know he or may not be considered to have a mental disorder.  The guns he used were registered to his mother.  So whats the solution? Ban guns that reside in a home with a person who has a mental disorder?

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

I didn't read the article, but I think we should prove people with mental disorders should not be allowed to buy guns and we should do it disorder by disorder. If the article has the proof, let me know, I will read it. 

This article does not cover the larger issue.  It focus' only on the EO(?) that is being removed by the new admin.

 

[Ilov80s]

Yes...I believe he was earlier diagnosed with Asperger syndrome, but I am not sure...didn't check.

Also, later or deeper analysis may have revealed more or deeper issues.

Again, I don't know the facts...speculation largely.

You should take the opportunity to learn what aspergers is. 

 

[Max Power]

I didn't read the article, but I think we should prove people with mental disorders should not be allowed to buy guns and we should do it disorder by disorder. If the article has the proof, let me know, I will read it. 

The problem is "mental disorder" isn't well defined.

 

[Ilov80s]

This article does not cover the larger issue.  It focus' only on the EO(?) that is being removed by the new admin.

I appreciate the genuine answer. I was being a bit of an ### because I know it doesn't. We should not be limiting Constitutional Rights without  clear and very specific evidence. 

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

You know he or may not be considered to have a mental disorder.  The guns he used were registered to his mother.  So whats the solution? Ban guns that reside in a home with a person who has a mental disorder?

Good points...

...irt to bolded, felons generally have the same restrictions (at least in my state...which is "gun loving")

 

[Dedfin]

You know he or may not be considered to have a mental disorder.  The guns he used were registered to his mother.  So whats the solution? Ban guns that reside in a home with a person who has a mental disorder?

I suppose I'm going to sound callous here.  In a country of 300+ million people, with firearms legal, tragedies like <fill in the blank> are going to happen.  It's an unfortunate side effect of our freedom.  Gun killings are pretty low on the list of number of yearly American deaths.  If it were #2 or something, it would be something we should address, but now it's just not important to me.

 

[Ilov80s]

The problem is "mental disorder" isn't well defined.

Or proven as a reason to take away a Constitutional right. 

 

[Max Power]

I haven't read the full thread, but I think the fact the ACLU was challenging this law is telling. The ACLU defends all Constitutional rights except for the Second Amendment. It has chosen to ignore that one as part of its mission, which is, I think, hypocritical. 

So the ACLU isn't a gun rights advocate. If anything, it leans the other way.

But they disliked this rule enough to challenge it and align themselves with the NRA in the process. I think that says something.

Speaking with no research... I think "mental disorder" is just too broad of a term.

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

You should take the opportunity to learn what aspergers is. 

I have it now.  If you want to discuss, I have time.

Or, if you wish, I will dig deeper.

I apologize if I have made an error. 

 

[Righetti]

Felons have rights too!

How about terrorists?  Should they have rights, too?

 

[Ilov80s]

You know he or may not be considered to have a mental disorder.  

We all may or may not be considered to have a mental disorder.