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Pete Prisco's top-ten list of best NFL players under age of 23 (1 Viewer)

Bracie Smathers

Footballguy
I didn't realize that Patrick Peterson was still under the age of 23, that suprised me.

Here's the list:

http://www.cbssports.com/general/blog/pete-prisco/22230397/the-nfls-best-players-under-the-age-of-23

There are a lot of damn good 23-year-old players in the NFL, guys like Andrew Luck and Robert Griffin III.

But what about those good players under the age 23? That's tough. Yet in trying to find the best 10 players under 23, I came up with 10 that I think have a chance to be really good players, and some will be stars.


All are 22 years old, and all should play big parts in how well their teams play in 2013.


1. Patrick Peterson, CB, Arizona Cardinals -- He is a special player and one of the best cover players in the league already. He can return kicks among the best in the NFL, but it's his cover skills on the corner that make him truly special. He will be a perennial Pro Bowl player in the coming years.


2. Luke Kuechly, ILB, Carolina Panthers -- He led the NFL in tackles as a rookie. That's impressive. He was all over the field and did so without the help of good down tackles in front of him.


3. Tyron Smith, T, Dallas Cowboys -- He has been a two-year starter, moving from right tackle to the left side in 2012. He didn't play as well as he did as a rookie, but the talent is certainly there to be a special player.


4. Bobby Wagner, MLB, Seattle Seahawks -- He finished seventh in the NFL in tackles playing in the middle on one of the best defenses in the league. He is a rangy linebacker who can also play the pass. He had three interceptions as a rookie.


5. Michael Brockers, DT, St. Louis Rams -- He had an impressive rookie season for a good defensive front. He is a tough, quick, active inside player. He has six sacks as a rookie and improved as the season went along. Don't be shocked to see him getting Pro Bowl consideration in 2013.


6. Fletcher Cox, DT, Philadelphia Eagles -- He had nine starts and had 5 1/2 sacks as a rookie in 2012, with 4 1/2 of those coming in the second half of the season. He is a quick inside player who showed signs of being dominant in future years.


7. Stephon Gilmore, CB, Buffalo Bills -- He started 16 games as a rookie and showed some nice coverage skills, even if he had some moments where he struggled. Gilmore is a big corner who has good speed. He lined up on the other team's top receivers a lot, and did a nice job.


8. Trent Richardson, RB, Cleveland Browns -- Injuries slowed him some as a rookie, but when he was healthy and on the field he did some good things. He is tough, fast and runs with power for a man his size.


9. Josh Gordon, WR, Cleveland Browns -- He was a supplemental pick last summer, costing Cleveland a second-round pick, but he proved to be a wise decision. Gordon is big and can run. Once he learns to do the little things better, watch out.


10. Vick Ballard, RB, Indianapolis Colts -- As a rookie fifth-round pick in 2012, he ran for 814 yards and showed a powerful running style. He will get even more carries in 2013 as he takes over as the starter.

 

Bracie Smathers

Footballguy
He had me until Vick Ballard.
Ballard was a name I wasn't sure of either and I would imagine at least one or two of the recently drafted rookies could or should find their names on the list soon enough.

I found the list mildly amusing since Prisco has a history of savaging any Cleveland player so I found funny that he 'had' to grudgenly put two Browns on the list but ofcourse he kept true to form and ranked them near the bottom, :)

 

jurb26

Footballguy
How many players under the age of 23 can there even be in the NFL? Minus the rookies of course. Has to be a pretty smallpool to choose from.

 

Bracie Smathers

Footballguy
The pool of players under 23 is limited but its not like these guys are stiffs.

The list isn't a list of players to build a core of an NFL team but if I were a GM I'd love to begin with those players.

Defensively

- You'd have your true shut down CB with PP and your other starter in Gilmore

- You'd have your QB on defense in the middle with Keuchly and a wingman at LB in Wagner

- You'd have a solid wall up front with Bockers and Cox

On Offense

- You'd have your blind-side protector in Ty-Smith

- Your RBs in T-Rich and Ballard

- A legit #1 WR prospect to build on

I would knock the talent on the list even if it comes from a limited pool of players.

 

cstu

Footballguy
How many players under the age of 23 can there even be in the NFL? Minus the rookies of course. Has to be a pretty smallpool to choose from.
Cobb, Stephen Hill, Rueben Randle.

Lamar Miller, David Wilson, Bernard Pierce, Bryce Brown.

 

jurb26

Footballguy
How many players under the age of 23 can there even be in the NFL? Minus the rookies of course. Has to be a pretty smallpool to choose from.
Cobb, Stephen Hill, Rueben Randle. Lamar Miller, David Wilson, Bernard Pierce, Bryce Brown.
Nice additions. I'd easily go with any of those RBs over Ballard. WR is a bit more touchy bit I'd probably take Cobb and Randle. This list would greatly expand I'd the age included 23. Most rookies coming in are 21 or 22.
 

werdnoynek

Footballguy
How many players under the age of 23 can there even be in the NFL? Minus the rookies of course. Has to be a pretty smallpool to choose from.
Cobb, Stephen Hill, Rueben Randle. Lamar Miller, David Wilson, Bernard Pierce, Bryce Brown.
Nice additions. I'd easily go with any of those RBs over Ballard. WR is a bit more touchy bit I'd probably take Cobb and Randle.This list would greatly expand I'd the age included 23. Most rookies coming in are 21 or 22.
There are some young people coming out though... hell Lesean McCoy is only 24 and he's been in the league for 5 years.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Adam Harstad

Moderator
jurb26 said:
How many players under the age of 23 can there even be in the NFL? Minus the rookies of course. Has to be a pretty smallpool to choose from.
Cobb, Stephen Hill, Rueben Randle. Lamar Miller, David Wilson, Bernard Pierce, Bryce Brown.
Nice additions. I'd easily go with any of those RBs over Ballard. WR is a bit more touchy bit I'd probably take Cobb and Randle. This list would greatly expand I'd the age included 23. Most rookies coming in are 21 or 22.
If Randall Cobb declared tomorrow that he became a pacifist and had religious objections to ever again playing on a unit called "offense", I'd still take him over Ballard for the returns alone.
werdnoynek said:
jurb26 said:
How many players under the age of 23 can there even be in the NFL? Minus the rookies of course. Has to be a pretty smallpool to choose from.
Cobb, Stephen Hill, Rueben Randle. Lamar Miller, David Wilson, Bernard Pierce, Bryce Brown.
Nice additions. I'd easily go with any of those RBs over Ballard. WR is a bit more touchy bit I'd probably take Cobb and Randle.This list would greatly expand I'd the age included 23. Most rookies coming in are 21 or 22.
There are some young people coming out though... hell Lesean McCoy is only 24 and he's been in the league for 5 years.
Harvin and Britt came from the same draft and are both also just 24. On the other end, Doug Martin is also 24 despite being a rookie last year. And Brandon Weeden is actually older than Matt Ryan.
 

gandalas

Footballguy
David Wilson over Ballard easily. I took Richardson and Wilson 1st and 2nd rounds in a recent dynasty startup, and couldn't be happier. Two studs that are both 21 years old to begin the season. :yes:

 

Bracie Smathers

Footballguy
Timely article naming the top 25 NFL players under the age of 25 years old.

Seems to fit right in with this thread.

Too much to cut-and-paste the 'reasoning' behind the rankings, go to link

DISCLAIMER: I highly disagree with the following rankings and I'm sure others will object to how they have stacked up these names but here ya go.

In descending order, and go to the link to read their 'logic' behind this list.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1640329-5-players-poised-for-a-breakout-campaign-in-2013#/articles/1640277-power-ranking-the-25-best-players-under-25-in-the-nfl

25. Akeem Ayers, OLB, Tennessee Titans

24. Alfred Morris, RB, Washington Redskins

23. Corey Liuget, DT, San Diego Chargers

22. Muhammad Wilkerson, DT, New York Jets

21. Antonio Brown, WR, Pittsburgh Steelers

20. Ryan Kerrigan, OLB, Washington Redskins

19. Randall Cobb, WR/KR, Green Bay Packers

18. Justin Houston, OLB, Kansas City Chiefs

17. Robert Quinn, DE, St. Louis Rams

16. Trent Richardson, RB, Cleveland Browns

15. Cam Newton, QB, Carolina Panthers

14. Julio Jones, WR, Atlanta Falcons

13. Robert Griffin III, QB, Washington Redskins

12. Rob Gronkowski, TE, New England Patriots

11. LeSean McCoy, RB, Philadelphia Eagles

10. Jason Pierre-Paul, DE, New York Giants

9. NaVorro Bowman, ILB, San Francisco 49ers

8. Russell Wilson, QB, Seattle Seahawks

7. A.J. Green, WR, Cincinnati Bengals

6. Aldon Smith, OLB, San Francisco 49ers

5. Percy Harvin, WR, Seattle Seahawks

4. Patrick Peterson, CB, Arizona Cardinals

3. Andrew Luck, QB, Indianapolis Colts

2. J.J. Watt, DE, Houston Texans

1. Von Miller, OLB, Denver Broncos

 

jurb26

Footballguy
Timely article naming the top 25 NFL players under the age of 25 years old.

Seems to fit right in with this thread.

Too much to cut-and-paste the 'reasoning' behind the rankings, go to link

DISCLAIMER: I highly disagree with the following rankings and I'm sure others will object to how they have stacked up these names but here ya go.

In descending order, and go to the link to read their 'logic' behind this list.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1640329-5-players-poised-for-a-breakout-campaign-in-2013#/articles/1640277-power-ranking-the-25-best-players-under-25-in-the-nfl

25. Akeem Ayers, OLB, Tennessee Titans

24. Alfred Morris, RB, Washington Redskins

23. Corey Liuget, DT, San Diego Chargers

22. Muhammad Wilkerson, DT, New York Jets

21. Antonio Brown, WR, Pittsburgh Steelers

20. Ryan Kerrigan, OLB, Washington Redskins

19. Randall Cobb, WR/KR, Green Bay Packers

18. Justin Houston, OLB, Kansas City Chiefs

17. Robert Quinn, DE, St. Louis Rams

16. Trent Richardson, RB, Cleveland Browns

15. Cam Newton, QB, Carolina Panthers

14. Julio Jones, WR, Atlanta Falcons

13. Robert Griffin III, QB, Washington Redskins

12. Rob Gronkowski, TE, New England Patriots

11. LeSean McCoy, RB, Philadelphia Eagles

10. Jason Pierre-Paul, DE, New York Giants

9. NaVorro Bowman, ILB, San Francisco 49ers

8. Russell Wilson, QB, Seattle Seahawks

7. A.J. Green, WR, Cincinnati Bengals

6. Aldon Smith, OLB, San Francisco 49ers

5. Percy Harvin, WR, Seattle Seahawks

4. Patrick Peterson, CB, Arizona Cardinals

3. Andrew Luck, QB, Indianapolis Colts

2. J.J. Watt, DE, Houston Texans

1. Von Miller, OLB, Denver Broncos
Harvin over AJ Green and Julio Jones is laughable. Also, there is no way I put A. Morris on the list. Otherwise, nice list.
 

rockaction

Footballguy
jurb26 said:
How many players under the age of 23 can there even be in the NFL? Minus the rookies of course. Has to be a pretty smallpool to choose from.
Cobb, Stephen Hill, Rueben Randle. Lamar Miller, David Wilson, Bernard Pierce, Bryce Brown.
Nice additions. I'd easily go with any of those RBs over Ballard. WR is a bit more touchy bit I'd probably take Cobb and Randle.This list would greatly expand I'd the age included 23. Most rookies coming in are 21 or 22.
I'd take Cobb in a heartbeat over Ballard. Wilson and B. Pierce and B. Brown, too. I watched Ballard all last year and wasn't impressed at all.

 

Adam Harstad

Moderator
Harvin over AJ Green and Julio Jones is laughable.
Laughable's harsh. In his last 16 games, Percy Harvin has more receptions, more yards from scrimmage, and more TDs than either, despite playing with a dramatically worse QB and getting 75% of his yards after the catch. He also happens to be the best kickoff returner in the NFL. I'd agree that Green and Jones are better in the "traditional" WR role of breaking down coverages, but I think Harvin places just as much stress on the defense as either, and you can't argue with his production, especially if you count the returns. Which absolutely should count.
 

jurb26

Footballguy
Harvin over AJ Green and Julio Jones is laughable.
Laughable's harsh. In his last 16 games, Percy Harvin has more receptions, more yards from scrimmage, and more TDs than either, despite playing with a dramatically worse QB and getting 75% of his yards after the catch. He also happens to be the best kickoff returner in the NFL. I'd agree that Green and Jones are better in the "traditional" WR role of breaking down coverages, but I think Harvin places just as much stress on the defense as either, and you can't argue with his production, especially if you count the returns. Which absolutely should count.
I don't think it's harsh at all. I also don't think his QB was dramatically worse than Dalton, despite Dalton's statistical success. Having watched many Cinci games I can easily say Dalton has been a huge hinderence to Green. Green is basically open any time he wants to be. He gets behind defenses with ease and Dalton continually misses him or fails to take advantage of him. Green should be in the discussion for best WR in the NFL right now. That's how good he is. I know almost nobody will want to believe that and simply place Calvin well ahead of him and everyone else. Bringing up YAC seems silly given the nature of how each of these players is used. Of course Harvin has a lot more YAC, he's been used far more in the short passing game and Minn intentionally placed him in areas to work on space. Green and Jones are primarily lined up outside as WR1s. Also, you forgot to mention the presence of Peterson and having the best RB in the NFL.Return game is valid, but I stand by my original statement.
 

BassNBrew

IBL Representative
Timely article naming the top 25 NFL players under the age of 25 years old.

Seems to fit right in with this thread.

Too much to cut-and-paste the 'reasoning' behind the rankings, go to link

DISCLAIMER: I highly disagree with the following rankings and I'm sure others will object to how they have stacked up these names but here ya go.

In descending order, and go to the link to read their 'logic' behind this list.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1640329-5-players-poised-for-a-breakout-campaign-in-2013#/articles/1640277-power-ranking-the-25-best-players-under-25-in-the-nfl

25. Akeem Ayers, OLB, Tennessee Titans

24. Alfred Morris, RB, Washington Redskins

23. Corey Liuget, DT, San Diego Chargers

22. Muhammad Wilkerson, DT, New York Jets

21. Antonio Brown, WR, Pittsburgh Steelers

20. Ryan Kerrigan, OLB, Washington Redskins

19. Randall Cobb, WR/KR, Green Bay Packers

18. Justin Houston, OLB, Kansas City Chiefs

17. Robert Quinn, DE, St. Louis Rams

16. Trent Richardson, RB, Cleveland Browns

15. Cam Newton, QB, Carolina Panthers

14. Julio Jones, WR, Atlanta Falcons

13. Robert Griffin III, QB, Washington Redskins

12. Rob Gronkowski, TE, New England Patriots

11. LeSean McCoy, RB, Philadelphia Eagles

10. Jason Pierre-Paul, DE, New York Giants

9. NaVorro Bowman, ILB, San Francisco 49ers

8. Russell Wilson, QB, Seattle Seahawks

7. A.J. Green, WR, Cincinnati Bengals

6. Aldon Smith, OLB, San Francisco 49ers

5. Percy Harvin, WR, Seattle Seahawks

4. Patrick Peterson, CB, Arizona Cardinals

3. Andrew Luck, QB, Indianapolis Colts

2. J.J. Watt, DE, Houston Texans

1. Von Miller, OLB, Denver Broncos
Tough crowd when the NFL DROY and leading tackler doesn't make the list.

I could argue that Cam doesn't belong on this list.

 

Adam Harstad

Moderator
Harvin over AJ Green and Julio Jones is laughable.
Laughable's harsh. In his last 16 games, Percy Harvin has more receptions, more yards from scrimmage, and more TDs than either, despite playing with a dramatically worse QB and getting 75% of his yards after the catch. He also happens to be the best kickoff returner in the NFL. I'd agree that Green and Jones are better in the "traditional" WR role of breaking down coverages, but I think Harvin places just as much stress on the defense as either, and you can't argue with his production, especially if you count the returns. Which absolutely should count.
I don't think it's harsh at all. I also don't think his QB was dramatically worse than Dalton, despite Dalton's statistical success. Having watched many Cinci games I can easily say Dalton has been a huge hinderence to Green. Green is basically open any time he wants to be. He gets behind defenses with ease and Dalton continually misses him or fails to take advantage of him. Green should be in the discussion for best WR in the NFL right now. That's how good he is. I know almost nobody will want to believe that and simply place Calvin well ahead of him and everyone else. Bringing up YAC seems silly given the nature of how each of these players is used. Of course Harvin has a lot more YAC, he's been used far more in the short passing game and Minn intentionally placed him in areas to work on space. Green and Jones are primarily lined up outside as WR1s. Also, you forgot to mention the presence of Peterson and having the best RB in the NFL.Return game is valid, but I stand by my original statement.
I didn't forget to mention Peterson. Peterson's presence has absolutely no bearing at all on Percy Harvin. To wit: Harvin's last 16 games include week 9 against the Seahawks, where Harvin got injured early and left with just 34 yards. In the other 15 games, Percy Harvin has 110 receptions, 1462 yards from scrimmage, 11 offensive touchdowns, 850 kickoff return yards (at 35 yards per), one kickoff return TD, and a second kickoff return of 104 yards where Harvin got tackled inside the 5. Over that exact same 15-game time frame, Adrian Peterson, the best RB in the NFL, had 179 rushes for 899 yards and 6 TDs. Adrian Peterson was injured, out, or rusty during that span, and Percy Harvin was still destroying every defense he faced. At the time of Harvin's injury, the consensus was that he, not Peterson, was Minnesota's best offensive player. He was mentioned in some quarters as a legitimate MVP candidate. It wasn't until after Harvin got injured that Peterson went on his berserko rampage and put up the best 8 game stretch in league history.

I happen to agree with you on A.J. Green- I think he's on another level entirely, and I agree that Dalton's been holding him back (but suggesting Dalton is anywhere near Ponder's level of putridness is crazy- without Percy Harvin, Ponder was basically Blaine Gabbert). I would take Green over Harvin, even factoring in returns. Julio, though? I'd take Harvin over Julio Jones straight up, even ignoring returns. Julio's benefitted from being the #2 target playing with a pro-bowl / borderline all-pro QB in the most pass-heavy offense in the league.

Either way, I don't think any comparison among the three rises to the level of "laughable". I think they're three of the top WRs in the NFL of any age.

 

wodahSShadow

Footballguy
Timely article naming the top 25 NFL players under the age of 25 years old.

Seems to fit right in with this thread.

Too much to cut-and-paste the 'reasoning' behind the rankings, go to link

DISCLAIMER: I highly disagree with the following rankings and I'm sure others will object to how they have stacked up these names but here ya go.

In descending order, and go to the link to read their 'logic' behind this list.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1640329-5-players-poised-for-a-breakout-campaign-in-2013#/articles/1640277-power-ranking-the-25-best-players-under-25-in-the-nfl

25. Akeem Ayers, OLB, Tennessee Titans

24. Alfred Morris, RB, Washington Redskins

23. Corey Liuget, DT, San Diego Chargers

22. Muhammad Wilkerson, DT, New York Jets

21. Antonio Brown, WR, Pittsburgh Steelers

20. Ryan Kerrigan, OLB, Washington Redskins

19. Randall Cobb, WR/KR, Green Bay Packers

18. Justin Houston, OLB, Kansas City Chiefs

17. Robert Quinn, DE, St. Louis Rams

16. Trent Richardson, RB, Cleveland Browns

15. Cam Newton, QB, Carolina Panthers

14. Julio Jones, WR, Atlanta Falcons

13. Robert Griffin III, QB, Washington Redskins

12. Rob Gronkowski, TE, New England Patriots

11. LeSean McCoy, RB, Philadelphia Eagles

10. Jason Pierre-Paul, DE, New York Giants

9. NaVorro Bowman, ILB, San Francisco 49ers

8. Russell Wilson, QB, Seattle Seahawks

7. A.J. Green, WR, Cincinnati Bengals

6. Aldon Smith, OLB, San Francisco 49ers

5. Percy Harvin, WR, Seattle Seahawks

4. Patrick Peterson, CB, Arizona Cardinals

3. Andrew Luck, QB, Indianapolis Colts

2. J.J. Watt, DE, Houston Texans

1. Von Miller, OLB, Denver Broncos
Find Gronk that far down the list to be pretty ridiculous. Especially behind McCoy and Wilson; Even Harvin. Gronk is literally un-coverable as a receiver and can block better than any WR and most TEs in the league. He is match-up proof if there ever was one.

 

Shanahanigans

Footballguy
Adam Harstad said:
jurb26 said:
Adam Harstad said:
Harvin over AJ Green and Julio Jones is laughable.
Laughable's harsh. In his last 16 games, Percy Harvin has more receptions, more yards from scrimmage, and more TDs than either, despite playing with a dramatically worse QB and getting 75% of his yards after the catch. He also happens to be the best kickoff returner in the NFL. I'd agree that Green and Jones are better in the "traditional" WR role of breaking down coverages, but I think Harvin places just as much stress on the defense as either, and you can't argue with his production, especially if you count the returns. Which absolutely should count.
I don't think it's harsh at all. I also don't think his QB was dramatically worse than Dalton, despite Dalton's statistical success. Having watched many Cinci games I can easily say Dalton has been a huge hinderence to Green. Green is basically open any time he wants to be. He gets behind defenses with ease and Dalton continually misses him or fails to take advantage of him. Green should be in the discussion for best WR in the NFL right now. That's how good he is. I know almost nobody will want to believe that and simply place Calvin well ahead of him and everyone else. Bringing up YAC seems silly given the nature of how each of these players is used. Of course Harvin has a lot more YAC, he's been used far more in the short passing game and Minn intentionally placed him in areas to work on space. Green and Jones are primarily lined up outside as WR1s. Also, you forgot to mention the presence of Peterson and having the best RB in the NFL.Return game is valid, but I stand by my original statement.
I didn't forget to mention Peterson. Peterson's presence has absolutely no bearing at all on Percy Harvin. To wit: Harvin's last 16 games include week 9 against the Seahawks, where Harvin got injured early and left with just 34 yards. In the other 15 games, Percy Harvin has 110 receptions, 1462 yards from scrimmage, 11 offensive touchdowns, 850 kickoff return yards (at 35 yards per), one kickoff return TD, and a second kickoff return of 104 yards where Harvin got tackled inside the 5. Over that exact same 15-game time frame, Adrian Peterson, the best RB in the NFL, had 179 rushes for 899 yards and 6 TDs. Adrian Peterson was injured, out, or rusty during that span, and Percy Harvin was still destroying every defense he faced. At the time of Harvin's injury, the consensus was that he, not Peterson, was Minnesota's best offensive player. He was mentioned in some quarters as a legitimate MVP candidate. It wasn't until after Harvin got injured that Peterson went on his berserko rampage and put up the best 8 game stretch in league history.

I happen to agree with you on A.J. Green- I think he's on another level entirely, and I agree that Dalton's been holding him back (but suggesting Dalton is anywhere near Ponder's level of putridness is crazy- without Percy Harvin, Ponder was basically Blaine Gabbert). I would take Green over Harvin, even factoring in returns. Julio, though? I'd take Harvin over Julio Jones straight up, even ignoring returns. Julio's benefitted from being the #2 target playing with a pro-bowl / borderline all-pro QB in the most pass-heavy offense in the league.

Either way, I don't think any comparison among the three rises to the level of "laughable". I think they're three of the top WRs in the NFL of any age.
Harvin and Jones owner here, and I agree with Jurb that the comparison is laughable. I would part with Harvin for much, much less than Jones. Harvin has had zero 1000 yard seasons in 4 years. I don't care if it's partially due to injuries, that's part of the risk of Harvin. He gets injured, he gets bad headaches, he's a bit of a headcase, he's not prototypical, and he's going to a new situation, (which I hate for WRs regardless if the situation looks good, you can't be certain). Don't get me wrong, I love owning Harvin, and when he plays it's great, but Jones is my money in the bank for the next 10 years.

From an NFL perspective, maybe you can give the edge Percy, based on how dynamic he is, but fantasy wise Julio is in an entirely different class than Harvin imho.

 

jonboltz

Footballguy
Adam Harstad said:
jurb26 said:
Adam Harstad said:
Harvin over AJ Green and Julio Jones is laughable.
Laughable's harsh. In his last 16 games, Percy Harvin has more receptions, more yards from scrimmage, and more TDs than either, despite playing with a dramatically worse QB and getting 75% of his yards after the catch. He also happens to be the best kickoff returner in the NFL. I'd agree that Green and Jones are better in the "traditional" WR role of breaking down coverages, but I think Harvin places just as much stress on the defense as either, and you can't argue with his production, especially if you count the returns. Which absolutely should count.
I don't think it's harsh at all. I also don't think his QB was dramatically worse than Dalton, despite Dalton's statistical success. Having watched many Cinci games I can easily say Dalton has been a huge hinderence to Green. Green is basically open any time he wants to be. He gets behind defenses with ease and Dalton continually misses him or fails to take advantage of him. Green should be in the discussion for best WR in the NFL right now. That's how good he is. I know almost nobody will want to believe that and simply place Calvin well ahead of him and everyone else. Bringing up YAC seems silly given the nature of how each of these players is used. Of course Harvin has a lot more YAC, he's been used far more in the short passing game and Minn intentionally placed him in areas to work on space. Green and Jones are primarily lined up outside as WR1s. Also, you forgot to mention the presence of Peterson and having the best RB in the NFL.Return game is valid, but I stand by my original statement.
I didn't forget to mention Peterson. Peterson's presence has absolutely no bearing at all on Percy Harvin. To wit: Harvin's last 16 games include week 9 against the Seahawks, where Harvin got injured early and left with just 34 yards. In the other 15 games, Percy Harvin has 110 receptions, 1462 yards from scrimmage, 11 offensive touchdowns, 850 kickoff return yards (at 35 yards per), one kickoff return TD, and a second kickoff return of 104 yards where Harvin got tackled inside the 5. Over that exact same 15-game time frame, Adrian Peterson, the best RB in the NFL, had 179 rushes for 899 yards and 6 TDs. Adrian Peterson was injured, out, or rusty during that span, and Percy Harvin was still destroying every defense he faced. At the time of Harvin's injury, the consensus was that he, not Peterson, was Minnesota's best offensive player. He was mentioned in some quarters as a legitimate MVP candidate. It wasn't until after Harvin got injured that Peterson went on his berserko rampage and put up the best 8 game stretch in league history.

I happen to agree with you on A.J. Green- I think he's on another level entirely, and I agree that Dalton's been holding him back (but suggesting Dalton is anywhere near Ponder's level of putridness is crazy- without Percy Harvin, Ponder was basically Blaine Gabbert). I would take Green over Harvin, even factoring in returns. Julio, though? I'd take Harvin over Julio Jones straight up, even ignoring returns. Julio's benefitted from being the #2 target playing with a pro-bowl / borderline all-pro QB in the most pass-heavy offense in the league.

Either way, I don't think any comparison among the three rises to the level of "laughable". I think they're three of the top WRs in the NFL of any age.
Harvin and Jones owner here, and I agree with Jurb that the comparison is laughable. I would part with Harvin for much, much less than Jones. Harvin has had zero 1000 yard seasons in 4 years. I don't care if it's partially due to injuries, that's part of the risk of Harvin. He gets injured, he gets bad headaches, he's a bit of a headcase, he's not prototypical, and he's going to a new situation, (which I hate for WRs regardless if the situation looks good, you can't be certain). Don't get me wrong, I love owning Harvin, and when he plays it's great, but Jones is my money in the bank for the next 10 years.

From an NFL perspective, maybe you can give the edge Percy, based on how dynamic he is, but fantasy wise Julio is in an entirely different class than Harvin imho.
Some info:

  • Prior to his ankle injury last year, Harvin had missed 3 total games in his first 3 years. Julio has missed 3 games in his first two years.
  • In 2011, Harvin outscored Julio overall, and by 1+ PPG (with Ponder as QB).
  • In 2012, Harvin outscored Julio by 1.5+ PPG (with Ponder as QB).
 

Shanahanigans

Footballguy
Some info:

  • Prior to his ankle injury last year, Harvin had missed 3 total games in his first 3 years. Julio has missed 3 games in his first two years.
  • In 2011, Harvin outscored Julio overall, and by 1+ PPG (with Ponder as QB).
  • In 2012, Harvin outscored Julio by 1.5+ PPG (with Ponder as QB).
I don't think it's fair to compare directly. There is a learning curve in the NFL. Harvin has a two year head start on Jones.

 

Adam Harstad

Moderator
Harvin and Jones owner here, and I agree with Jurb that the comparison is laughable. I would part with Harvin for much, much less than Jones. Harvin has had zero 1000 yard seasons in 4 years. I don't care if it's partially due to injuries, that's part of the risk of Harvin. He gets injured, he gets bad headaches, he's a bit of a headcase, he's not prototypical, and he's going to a new situation, (which I hate for WRs regardless if the situation looks good, you can't be certain). Don't get me wrong, I love owning Harvin, and when he plays it's great, but Jones is my money in the bank for the next 10 years. From an NFL perspective, maybe you can give the edge Percy, based on how dynamic he is, but fantasy wise Julio is in an entirely different class than Harvin imho.
This list was compiled from an NFL perspective, not a fantasy perspective.Edit: also, "1000 yard season" is an arbitrary metric, but even if that's the arbitrary metric you want to go with, Percy Harvin has had a 1,000 yard season. In fact, he's had a 1,300 yard season, and he *averages* 1,000 yards per season, even after missing half of last year. Again, this is completely ignoring returns, where Harvin is the best kickoff return man in the league, having led the league in yards per return in each of the last two seasons and currently ranking 6th in NFL history in career average. And Harvin has done it against defenses that key off of him as the first, last, and only threat in the passing game (as opposed to Jones, who shares the field with an All Pro receiver, a Hall of Fame TE, and an elite QB). I can understand someone who would prefer Julio from an NFL perspective. I cannot understand someone who thinks the idea of preferring Harvin is "laughable".
 
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Gawain

Footballguy
This is what happens when you argue with SSOG. He brings all these facts into it and tends to make you look foolish.

 

cstu

Footballguy
Adam Harstad said:
Shanahanigans said:
Harvin and Jones owner here, and I agree with Jurb that the comparison is laughable. I would part with Harvin for much, much less than Jones. Harvin has had zero 1000 yard seasons in 4 years. I don't care if it's partially due to injuries, that's part of the risk of Harvin. He gets injured, he gets bad headaches, he's a bit of a headcase, he's not prototypical, and he's going to a new situation, (which I hate for WRs regardless if the situation looks good, you can't be certain). Don't get me wrong, I love owning Harvin, and when he plays it's great, but Jones is my money in the bank for the next 10 years. From an NFL perspective, maybe you can give the edge Percy, based on how dynamic he is, but fantasy wise Julio is in an entirely different class than Harvin imho.
This list was compiled from an NFL perspective, not a fantasy perspective.Edit: also, "1000 yard season" is an arbitrary metric, but even if that's the arbitrary metric you want to go with, Percy Harvin has had a 1,000 yard season. In fact, he's had a 1,300 yard season, and he *averages* 1,000 yards per season, even after missing half of last year. Again, this is completely ignoring returns, where Harvin is the best kickoff return man in the league, having led the league in yards per return in each of the last two seasons and currently ranking 6th in NFL history in career average. And Harvin has done it against defenses that key off of him as the first, last, and only threat in the passing game (as opposed to Jones, who shares the field with an All Pro receiver, a Hall of Fame TE, and an elite QB). I can understand someone who would prefer Julio from an NFL perspective. I cannot understand someone who thinks the idea of preferring Harvin is "laughable".
What you say is true, but his personality does come into it. If Julio were to hit the trade market I would expect the number of teams competing for his services to be much higher than it was for Harvin.

 

Adam Harstad

Moderator
What you say is true, but his personality does come into it. If Julio were to hit the trade market I would expect the number of teams competing for his services to be much higher than it was for Harvin.
Probably very true, although you only need two teams to start a bidding war. Anyway, I wouldn't bat an eye if any, most, or all NFL teams would prefer Julio, I just disagree with the idea that he's on such a completely different level that suggesting Percy might be better is a joke. I think Calvin is the best WR in the league, but I certainly wouldn't laugh at anyone who wanted to argue that it was Fitzgerald, Marshall, Green, or Andre. Heck, even Dez, Demaryius, Julio, or Harvin would make me raise an eyebrow, but not burst out in laughter. A laughable comparison, to me, would be a guy like Stevie Johnson (the Revis Slayer!) or Wes Welker or Mike Wallace.
 

Shanahanigans

Footballguy
What you say is true, but his personality does come into it. If Julio were to hit the trade market I would expect the number of teams competing for his services to be much higher than it was for Harvin.
Probably very true, although you only need two teams to start a bidding war. Anyway, I wouldn't bat an eye if any, most, or all NFL teams would prefer Julio, I just disagree with the idea that he's on such a completely different level that suggesting Percy might be better is a joke. I think Calvin is the best WR in the league, but I certainly wouldn't laugh at anyone who wanted to argue that it was Fitzgerald, Marshall, Green, or Andre. Heck, even Dez, Demaryius, Julio, or Harvin would make me raise an eyebrow, but not burst out in laughter. A laughable comparison, to me, would be a guy like Stevie Johnson (the Revis Slayer!) or Wes Welker or Mike Wallace.
It's certainly not a laughable comparison if we're talking about the real NFL. Fantasy-wise, I stand by my statements. Julio is in a totally different class than Harvin. That said, maybe laughable isn't the best adjective, maybe incongrous would have been better.

 

Adam Harstad

Moderator
What you say is true, but his personality does come into it. If Julio were to hit the trade market I would expect the number of teams competing for his services to be much higher than it was for Harvin.
Probably very true, although you only need two teams to start a bidding war. Anyway, I wouldn't bat an eye if any, most, or all NFL teams would prefer Julio, I just disagree with the idea that he's on such a completely different level that suggesting Percy might be better is a joke. I think Calvin is the best WR in the league, but I certainly wouldn't laugh at anyone who wanted to argue that it was Fitzgerald, Marshall, Green, or Andre. Heck, even Dez, Demaryius, Julio, or Harvin would make me raise an eyebrow, but not burst out in laughter. A laughable comparison, to me, would be a guy like Stevie Johnson (the Revis Slayer!) or Wes Welker or Mike Wallace.
It's certainly not a laughable comparison if we're talking about the real NFL. Fantasy-wise, I stand by my statements. Julio is in a totally different class than Harvin. That said, maybe laughable isn't the best adjective, maybe incongrous would have been better.
Incongruous. That's really traveling off the beaten path in search of an adjective. I love it. :)For what it's worth, 12 of the 14 staffers agree with you that Julio is a better dynasty receiver than Harvin, and 10 of the 14 have Julio ranked 3 or more slots higher (or "in a different class"). So you're not alone on that. Also for what it's worth, I'm one of the two staffers who prefers Harvin straight up over Julio (Hammond is the other). I'm okay with getting laughed at for it. :lol:
 

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