PFT reporting .... (1 Viewer)

[Rozelle]

I know, not the most reliable source. Never-the-less heres their post.

POSTED 8:44 a.m. EDT, March 19, 2007

BROWNS NOT COUNTING ON WINSLOW

In response to a tip that we recently received regarding the condition of Browns tight end Kellen Winslow following microfracture surgery on the knee that he initially injured when he made like Evel Knievel in May 2005, we've checked with a couple of our sources and we've determined that the powers that be in Cleveland are not counting on Winslow to be available for the 2007.

"There really is a good chance he won't play this season," a league source told us.

The bigger question, as the source pointed out, is why didn't the Browns shut Winslow down earlier in the 2006 season? They were out of the playoff hunt, and yet Winslow (to the pleasure of fantasy owners only) continued to play despite being listed as questionable nearly every week due to his knee.

"I would have made him have the surgery earlier to make sure he'd be ready for this upcoming season," said the source.

But there are also whispers that, in the wake of the procedure for creating scar tissue that will simulate knee cartilage, Winslow might never be able to play again.

Stay tuned.

 

[Deranged Hermit]

Jeebus. First Bentley, now this.

 

[Godsbrother]

There is a difference between "there is chance he might not play" and being "out for 2007 season". It is all speculative at this point.

 

[OoOBaby]

There is a difference between "there is chance he might not play" and being "out for 2007 season". It is all speculative at this point.

What isn't speculative is the fact his knee is shot. This guy is a train wreck.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

micro fracture is all you need to hear, he's done

 

[tecmo bo]

please change title to MAY be out

 

[Tarkin]

micro fracture is all you need to hear, he's done

Amare Stoudemire pulled it off, but I think he had more rehab time.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

micro fracture is all you need to hear, he's done

Amare Stoudemire pulled it off, but I think he had more rehab time.

basketball <> football. most football players are done for their careers once this happens. Well see, Im betting he dont play in 2007 at least.

 

[Couch Potato]

Yeah, that thread title needs to be changed by someone.

 

[Tarkin]

micro fracture is all you need to hear, he's done

Amare Stoudemire pulled it off, but I think he had more rehab time.

basketball <> football. most football players are done for their careers once this happens. Well see, Im betting he dont play in 2007 at least.

I am not entirely sure I agree with this. Basketball players pound on that hard floor 82 games/season + playoffs. Football is much less games, more time off between plays, and on a much softer surface.And Kellen's a TE. Even if he doesn't come back 100%, he should still be able to put up decent numbers.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

micro fracture is all you need to hear, he's done

Amare Stoudemire pulled it off, but I think he had more rehab time.

basketball <> football. most football players are done for their careers once this happens. Well see, Im betting he dont play in 2007 at least.

I am not entirely sure I agree with this. Basketball players pound on that hard floor 82 games/season + playoffs. Football is much less games, more time off between plays, and on a much softer surface.And Kellen's a TE. Even if he doesn't come back 100%, he should still be able to put up decent numbers.

But amare dont have 250 pound linebacks taking his knees out.I'm trying think of one football player to come back from his surgery.

 

[bcr8f]

micro fracture is all you need to hear, he's done

Amare Stoudemire pulled it off, but I think he had more rehab time.

basketball <> football. most football players are done for their careers once this happens. Well see, Im betting he dont play in 2007 at least.

I am not entirely sure I agree with this. Basketball players pound on that hard floor 82 games/season + playoffs. Football is much less games, more time off between plays, and on a much softer surface.And Kellen's a TE. Even if he doesn't come back 100%, he should still be able to put up decent numbers.

But amare dont have 250 pound linebacks taking his knees out.I'm trying think of one football player to come back from his surgery.

Stephen Davis?

 

[Couch Potato]

micro fracture is all you need to hear, he's done

Amare Stoudemire pulled it off, but I think he had more rehab time.

basketball <> football. most football players are done for their careers once this happens. Well see, Im betting he dont play in 2007 at least.

I am not entirely sure I agree with this. Basketball players pound on that hard floor 82 games/season + playoffs. Football is much less games, more time off between plays, and on a much softer surface.And Kellen's a TE. Even if he doesn't come back 100%, he should still be able to put up decent numbers.

But amare dont have 250 pound linebacks taking his knees out.I'm trying think of one football player to come back from his surgery.

DeShaun Foster did, and Stephen Davis did, though Davis is old and hasn't had big roles recently for that reason.

 

[Rozelle]

Yeah, that thread title needs to be changed by someone.

Done

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

micro fracture is all you need to hear, he's done

Amare Stoudemire pulled it off, but I think he had more rehab time.

basketball <> football. most football players are done for their careers once this happens. Well see, Im betting he dont play in 2007 at least.

I am not entirely sure I agree with this. Basketball players pound on that hard floor 82 games/season + playoffs. Football is much less games, more time off between plays, and on a much softer surface.And Kellen's a TE. Even if he doesn't come back 100%, he should still be able to put up decent numbers.

But amare dont have 250 pound linebacks taking his knees out.I'm trying think of one football player to come back from his surgery.

DeShaun Foster did, and Stephen Davis did, though Davis is old and hasn't had big roles recently for that reason.

I dont remember deshaun. I remember this surgery ending TD's career. Anyway I would put KW2's return this season very much in doubt

 

[Couch Potato]

Yeah, that thread title needs to be changed by someone.

Done

Thanks Rozelle. Now Winslow owners who come on and see the title won't immediately choke on their Cheerios.

 

[Rozelle]

Yeah, that thread title needs to be changed by someone.

Done

Thanks Rozelle. Now Winslow owners who come on and see the title won't immediately choke on their Cheerios.

No problem ... misery loves company, I choked on mine

 

[Mungo Burrows]

There is a difference between "there is chance he might not play" and being "out for 2007 season". It is all speculative at this point.

What isn't speculative is the fact his knee is shot. This guy is a train motorcycle wreck.

fixed

 

[Warhogs]

Winslow came back to play on this last year. DeShaun Foster did have micro fracture surgery and has been fine. I believe a Vikings DL had it and has not been the same player. This is bad news for Winslow owners but it is premature to write him off completely.

 

[Family Matters]

All I can say is Winslow really screwed the Browns. He's gotten a huge payday and he goes out and blows his knee out by being a jerk.

I feel bad for all the Browns fans. I root for the Browns anytime they aren't playing the Bengals and their fans have been screwed so bad for so many years now that it's time they catch a break. I hope they get the right players in the draft and that their line steps up to play bigtime so they can win a few games for their fans and restore hope. They have been snake bit so bad that it's getting borderline stupid the bad breaks they've had. With Winslow and Bentley they are a competitive team next year. Without those 2 their offense is completely different. So unless Edwards and their QB (insert name here) can overcome these issues it's going to be another dreadful season.

 

[dickey moe]

micro fracture is all you need to hear, he's done

Amare Stoudemire pulled it off, but I think he had more rehab time.

basketball <> football. most football players are done for their careers once this happens. Well see, Im betting he dont play in 2007 at least.

I am not entirely sure I agree with this. Basketball players pound on that hard floor 82 games/season + playoffs. Football is much less games, more time off between plays, and on a much softer surface.And Kellen's a TE. Even if he doesn't come back 100%, he should still be able to put up decent numbers.

But amare dont have 250 pound linebacks taking his knees out.I'm trying think of one football player to come back from his surgery.

DeShaun Foster did, and Stephen Davis did

And we all know how that has turned out.

 

[mr blond]

It's been said to never believe anything you hear starting from the scouting combine through the draft. Phil Savage has referred to this time period of misinformation and smoke screens as the "silly season." Given the source and the timing of this information, I view it as pure speculation.

You have to wonder though, if Winslow were expected to miss 2007, the Browns drafting Calvin Johnson at the 3rd pick doesn't seem so out of place as it did a few weeks ago. If I were the Browns and wanted to create more trade value for the 3rd pick, and Calvin Johnson who may be there still at 3, this is the kind of news that I'd leak.

 

[Family Matters]

It's been said to never believe anything you hear starting from the scouting combine through the draft. Phil Savage has referred to this time period of misinformation and smoke screens as the "silly season." Given the source and the timing of this information, I view it as pure speculation.You have to wonder though, if Winslow were expected to miss 2007, the Browns drafting Calvin Johnson at the 3rd pick doesn't seem so out of place as it did a few weeks ago. If I were the Browns and wanted to create more trade value for the 3rd pick, and Calvin Johnson who may be there still at 3, this is the kind of news that I'd leak.

This is a great point and it might be a great strategy for Savage to exploit. But this is also a very believable scenario with Winslow.

 

[Despyzer]

It's been said to never believe anything you hear starting from the scouting combine through the draft. Phil Savage has referred to this time period of misinformation and smoke screens as the "silly season." Given the source and the timing of this information, I view it as pure speculation.

1. I think that mostly applies to teams talking about players in the draft that they like/dislike, not so much the status of players currently attached to rosters on a long-term basis.2. This information doesn't sound like it is coming from the Browns' brass.

 

[Jene Bramel]

micro fracture is all you need to hear, he's done

Amare Stoudemire pulled it off, but I think he had more rehab time.

basketball <> football. most football players are done for their careers once this happens. Well see, Im betting he dont play in 2007 at least.

I am not entirely sure I agree with this. Basketball players pound on that hard floor 82 games/season + playoffs. Football is much less games, more time off between plays, and on a much softer surface.And Kellen's a TE. Even if he doesn't come back 100%, he should still be able to put up decent numbers.

But amare dont have 250 pound linebacks taking his knees out.I'm trying think of one football player to come back from his surgery.

With apologies for quoting myself, I posted this in a Winslow thread last month.

Just saw this myself. Posted in a thread a month or so ago immediately after the surgery that two "clean-outs" after an ACL surgery was a little worrisome but was glad no one had mentioned the word "microfracture" despite Winslow himself noting the poor state of the cartilage in that knee.Microfracture surgery is better than it was -- Willie Anderson and DeShaun Foster have had much better results than had Tony Brackens, Andre Wadsworth, Eric Swann, etc. Kenechi Udeze hasn't gotten back to his prior level of explosiveness (which was a little questionable anyway, granted) after his microfracture procedure a couple seasons ago. Amare Stoudamire looks to be doing well, although he had a prolonged recovery period. Others have posted in other threads that they'd take 90% of Winslow in a heartbeat, but I'd be very, very worried about a player who relies on quickness and power post microfracture surgery. Stephen Davis did okay briefly, but was more of a power guy than quicks guy. Wikipedia cites recent studies that give a 75-80% success rate for the surgery. I don't know what the success rate for a professional athlete would be, but I'd guess it's lower in terms of recovering to pre-surgical health. And most would probably agree that, despite continued advances, microfracture surgery is still not a long term fix for a professional athlete that continues to subject his knee to unusual amounts of stress.

 

[TheFanatic]

All I can say is Winslow really screwed the Browns. He's gotten a huge payday and he goes out and blows his knee out by being a jerk.

He had to pay back the signing bonus and then signed a new deal that was almost completely incentive based. If he doesn't play he gets very little money. He has a lot of motivation to get on the field....

 

[redman]

I drafted this dog in 2004 and have suffered through every season with him. Ugh!

 

[cstu]

I drafted this dog in 2004 and have suffered through every season with him. Ugh!

Having the #3 TE last year must have been rough.

 

[redman]

I drafted this dog in 2004 and have suffered through every season with him. Ugh!

Having the #3 TE last year must have been rough.

Yeah, that one year of ROI out of three four was just heaven.

 

[lord_helmet]

"news" like this is why I hate that PFT site, and somehow their garbage ends up on every message board in the western world.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

micro fracture is all you need to hear, he's done

Amare Stoudemire pulled it off, but I think he had more rehab time.

basketball <> football. most football players are done for their careers once this happens. Well see, Im betting he dont play in 2007 at least.

I am not entirely sure I agree with this. Basketball players pound on that hard floor 82 games/season + playoffs. Football is much less games, more time off between plays, and on a much softer surface.And Kellen's a TE. Even if he doesn't come back 100%, he should still be able to put up decent numbers.

But amare dont have 250 pound linebacks taking his knees out.I'm trying think of one football player to come back from his surgery.

Bhawoh Jue had it last offseason.

 

[Rozelle]

I assume there are different levels of this type of surgery, some more extensive than others. Da Browns claim K2's was not as extensive as some. Medical tech moves fast, so what happened 2,3-4 years ago with other players may be like comparing apples to oranges. Hey Jene. Is this an accurate assement?

Also were dealing with PFT as the source. Hopefully this will create a big enough internet buzz that someone a bit more credable will get to the bottom of this.

 

[Sigmund Bloom]

Whether there's anything to this or not, it doesn't take a Dr. Jene Bramel to see that KW is playing on the knees of a 10 year vet, and is not long for this league, at least not at the level he was playing last year. He was complaining about his knees every single week it seemed.

 

[Rozelle]

Whether there's anything to this or not, it doesn't take a Dr. Jene Bramel to see that KW is playing on the knees of a 10 year vet, and is not long for this league, at least not at the level he was playing last year. He was complaining about his knees every single week it seemed.

He claimed he was playing with one knee last year, I don't see whay he can't put up the same numbers or better on 1 and 1/2. Time will tell.

 

[The Man With No Name]

Article from 04/2003 about NFL players that have had microfracture surgery between 1986 and 1997.here it is

List of athletes that have had microfracture surgery wikipedia list

Notables: Bruce Smith, Jason Kidd, Bode Miller

Some NFL players not listed: Al Johnson, Matt Lepsis, Jeremy Newberry

 

[RUN HARD]

LOL

I got OUTSCOOOOPED

 

[Guinis72]

I had microfracture in Sept and there's no way I can run still. I could probably run a short distance but my Dr. told me to avoid anything "high impact" from this point forward. I also had about 1/3 of my patella cartilage removed so this may have made it worse than Winslow's, not sure.

Basically, they don't usually do this procedure unless there's a significant loss of cartilage. They drill holes in the bottom of the knee cap, to let it bleed, then brace your knee for 6 weeks to keep you from bending it. They want the blood to clot, and in turn, it sometimes will turn into a "fiber cartilage" that my Dr. described as not as good or strong as normal cartilage but better than nothing. If you bend your knee, you basically scrape those clots and break them up prohibiting it from turning into fiber cartilage. I was pretty good about wearing my brace, except for when I slept (although I should have) but I'm curious if the success is tied to how strict they were about wearing the brace. I bent my legs many times in my sleep for example.

I would be very wary about KII. You can't regrow cartilage and the above procedure is about the closest thing you can do to try. There is 1 other option I won't get into detail about but I was told "it takes a year long committment and may or may not work".

 

[Jene Bramel]

I assume there are different levels of this type of surgery, some more extensive than others. Da Browns claim K2's was not as extensive as some. Medical tech moves fast, so what happened 2,3-4 years ago with other players may be like comparing apples to oranges. Hey Jene. Is this an accurate assement?Also were dealing with PFT as the source. Hopefully this will create a big enough internet buzz that someone a bit more credable will get to the bottom of this.

With the usual disclaimer that I'm no orthopedist, I'm not sure whether the extent of the surgery has much to do with recovery. Any small area of damaged cartilage is going to cause an issue. Microfracture surgery is still more or less a last resort procedure -- there's no other option to try to regenerate the cartilage. Even if the area affected is small, if the procedure isn't effective you're back to where you started. Which is a lot of pain, decreased range of motion, recurrent swelling, etc. The surgical interventions and rehab protocols may be improved, but the outcomes are still questionable -- especially for a guy that relies on speed and quickness in addition to power. For his sake, let's hope his result is closer to DeShaun Foster's than a few others.

 

[Rozelle]

I assume there are different levels of this type of surgery, some more extensive than others. Da Browns claim K2's was not as extensive as some. Medical tech moves fast, so what happened 2,3-4 years ago with other players may be like comparing apples to oranges. Hey Jene. Is this an accurate assement?Also were dealing with PFT as the source. Hopefully this will create a big enough internet buzz that someone a bit more credable will get to the bottom of this.

With the usual disclaimer that I'm no orthopedist, I'm not sure whether the extent of the surgery has much to do with recovery. Any small area of damaged cartilage is going to cause an issue. Microfracture surgery is still more or less a last resort procedure -- there's no other option to try to regenerate the cartilage. Even if the area affected is small, if the procedure isn't effective you're back to where you started. Which is a lot of pain, decreased range of motion, recurrent swelling, etc. The surgical interventions and rehab protocols may be improved, but the outcomes are still questionable -- especially for a guy that relies on speed and quickness in addition to power. For his sake, let's hope his result is closer to DeShaun Foster's than a few others.

I see ... Thanks

 

[TheLastDispatch]

Wow. I was totally unaware he had any further problems/complications. I've probably just been sleeping here, but this comes as a shock to me.

 

[NorrisB]

Wow. I was totally unaware he had any further problems/complications. I've probably just been sleeping here, but this comes as a shock to me.

 

[switz]

micro fracture is all you need to hear, he's done

Amare Stoudemire pulled it off, but I think he had more rehab time.

basketball <> football. most football players are done for their careers once this happens. Well see, Im betting he dont play in 2007 at least.

That used to be the case, but it no longer is. Terrell Davis made the procedure rather infamous, but it really depends on the individual. Bruce Smith had the same procedure early in his career, and ended up a HOF player, and DEs take a beating on the knees.

 

[redman]

micro fracture is all you need to hear, he's done

Amare Stoudemire pulled it off, but I think he had more rehab time.

basketball <> football. most football players are done for their careers once this happens. Well see, Im betting he dont play in 2007 at least.

That used to be the case, but it no longer is. Terrell Davis made the procedure rather infamous, but it really depends on the individual. Bruce Smith had the same procedure early in his career, and ended up a HOF player, and DEs take a beating on the knees.

I agree that it's a guarantee of nothing - my impression is that microfracture surgery has greatly improved just in the last several years, but I couldn't tell you where I got that from. Anyhow, the problem here is that this injured knee doesn't exist in a vacuum. Remember that he also had a shattered femur and a hip problem IIRC, and those prior problems can't have helped his situation here.

 

[Despyzer]

Anyhow, the problem here is that this injured knee doesn't exist in a vacuum.

Are you sure about that? Who are we talking about again? I think "vacuum" might be a pretty apt description in this case.

 

[switz]

micro fracture is all you need to hear, he's done

Amare Stoudemire pulled it off, but I think he had more rehab time.

basketball <> football. most football players are done for their careers once this happens. Well see, Im betting he dont play in 2007 at least.

That used to be the case, but it no longer is. Terrell Davis made the procedure rather infamous, but it really depends on the individual. Bruce Smith had the same procedure early in his career, and ended up a HOF player, and DEs take a beating on the knees.

I agree that it's a guarantee of nothing - my impression is that microfracture surgery has greatly improved just in the last several years, but I couldn't tell you where I got that from. Anyhow, the problem here is that this injured knee doesn't exist in a vacuum. Remember that he also had a shattered femur and a hip problem IIRC, and those prior problems can't have helped his situation here.

Actually I'm not sure the hip or femur would have any effect at all on the knee. A broken bone is stronger when it heals. The thing with the knee is it takes a ton of discipline to let microfracture heal properly. They actually stretch the leg out, to give the scar tissue room to grow... it's painful!My only question with KW2 is if he has the discipline to let it heal properly.

 

[Duke1948]

Wow. I was totally unaware he had any further problems/complications. I've probably just been sleeping here, but this comes as a shock to me.

with you on this.....knew there was problems, but not of this magnitude.

 

[redman]

micro fracture is all you need to hear, he's done

Amare Stoudemire pulled it off, but I think he had more rehab time.

basketball <> football. most football players are done for their careers once this happens. Well see, Im betting he dont play in 2007 at least.

That used to be the case, but it no longer is. Terrell Davis made the procedure rather infamous, but it really depends on the individual. Bruce Smith had the same procedure early in his career, and ended up a HOF player, and DEs take a beating on the knees.

I agree that it's a guarantee of nothing - my impression is that microfracture surgery has greatly improved just in the last several years, but I couldn't tell you where I got that from. Anyhow, the problem here is that this injured knee doesn't exist in a vacuum. Remember that he also had a shattered femur and a hip problem IIRC, and those prior problems can't have helped his situation here.

Actually I'm not sure the hip or femur would have any effect at all on the knee. A broken bone is stronger when it heals. The thing with the knee is it takes a ton of discipline to let microfracture heal properly. They actually stretch the leg out, to give the scar tissue room to grow... it's painful!My only question with KW2 is if he has the discipline to let it heal properly.

My understanding is that a leg injury in one part of the leg often leads to problems elsewhere, often in compensation. For example, and right foot injury can lead to a left hip injury due to the person compensating in their gait. My only point here is that the multitude of injuries - all of them serious - that Winslow has suffered from the waist down can only hurt his chances of successful recovery from any individual one. He cannot be viewed as an average example of a person or even a pro athlete seeking to recover from this knee injury.

 

[AtomicDogg97]

As a Browns fan, I can't say this news shocks me. There is NOTHING harder than being a Cleveland sports fan.....Browns, Cavs, or Indians. This is just the latest proof.

 

[Despyzer]

As a Browns fan, I can't say this news shocks me. There is NOTHING harder than being a Cleveland sports fan.....Browns, Cavs, or Indians. This is just the latest proof.

Yeah... because San Diego is rolling in championship titles.

 

[AtomicDogg97]

Yeah... because San Diego is rolling in championship titles.

People in San Diego aren't die hard sports fans like they are in Cleveland. People in San Diego didn't sell out every football game for 50 years and still have their team leave for another city. People in San Diego haven't had the drive, the fumble, the shot, the catch, etc God I hate being a Cleveland sports fan.