Pinewood Derby (1 Viewer)

[shuke]

What's the easiest way to get the axles in without risking bending them? I did use a drill press to open the holes up some, but still left them undersized so the axles won't go in under just finger pressure.

Can you run a fine bit hand saw through the groove? Or have they changed the kits? Used to be the axles went in to an exposed groove, not a hole.

You can. Yes, there is an exposed groove. I think the axles are .088" in diameter and the groove may be about .062" wide. I am afraid that using a saw would get it too sloppy. We drilled holes at the very top point of the grooves, at about .078" in diameter. Last year we screwed up by jamming one of the axles in crooked and I don't want to force these in.

I'm not sure I understand why it is difficult to insert the axles into the holes. Did you use a #44 drill bit to drill the holes? The axles should go in fairly easily, but still be snug.

I used a .078" bit.

 

[gameday]

What's the easiest way to get the axles in without risking bending them? I did use a drill press to open the holes up some, but still left them undersized so the axles won't go in under just finger pressure.

Can you run a fine bit hand saw through the groove? Or have they changed the kits? Used to be the axles went in to an exposed groove, not a hole.

You can. Yes, there is an exposed groove. I think the axles are .088" in diameter and the groove may be about .062" wide. I am afraid that using a saw would get it too sloppy. We drilled holes at the very top point of the grooves, at about .078" in diameter. Last year we screwed up by jamming one of the axles in crooked and I don't want to force these in.

I'm not sure I understand why it is difficult to insert the axles into the holes. Did you use a #44 drill bit to drill the holes? The axles should go in fairly easily, but still be snug.

I used a .078" bit.

that's the issue then. The axle hole requires a #44 bit, which is .086".

 

[Disco Stu]

We had a heck of a time with alignment yesterday. I guess we just got lucky last year, when the process was relatively quick and painless. This time it took over two hours.

I finally ended up putting a rather severe bend in the front (dominant) axle. The wheel now has some cant to it, but it steers the car into the rail like we wanted.

We think it's a little faster than last year's model, but we won't know for sure until Saturday.

Just lacks the #21 sticker

Lower profile than last year

 

[gameday]

We had a heck of a time with alignment yesterday. I guess we just got lucky last year, when the process was relatively quick and painless. This time it took over two hours. I finally ended up putting a rather severe bend in the front (dominant) axle. The wheel now has some cant to it, but it steers the car into the rail like we wanted.We think it's a little faster than last year's model, but we won't know for sure until Saturday.Just lacks the #21 sticker...http://i.imgur.com/u9fCtA5.jpgLower profile than last year...http://i.imgur.com/u9fCtA5.jpg

yeah, it's weird how some cars align in just a few minutes and yet others take an hour or so. I think it all has to do with how precise the axle hole is drilled. By the way, the links in your post are for the same pic. Is that this year's car or last year's car?

 

[Disco Stu]

yeah, it's weird how some cars align in just a few minutes and yet others take an hour or so. I think it all has to do with how precise the axle hole is drilled. By the way, the links in your post are for the same pic. Is that this year's car or last year's car?

Damn, I always screw that up on my phone. This year on right.

 

[gameday]

yeah, it's weird how some cars align in just a few minutes and yet others take an hour or so. I think it all has to do with how precise the axle hole is drilled. By the way, the links in your post are for the same pic. Is that this year's car or last year's car?

Damn, I always screw that up on my phone. This year on right.

Wow, the new car looks great. How much does it drift (e.g. 2" over 3').Here is a pic of an outlaw I made for a dad's race. It had wheels with bearings.Here is a pic of a car my son made when he was in 3rd grade. He's in Karate and he wanted a ninja car. He drew it out, cut it on the scroll saw, and then we employed all the normal tricks. It was incredibly fast given it's bizarre design, and finished 1st overall in the Pack, and 2nd overall at District.Ninja Car And here is another Outlaw car with bearings.And her is one final one. This car took 1st overall in Pack and I think it was 1st overall in District. Basic car.I bet over 100 cars have been made in my shop. My sons are out of scouting so that's probably the end of it.

 

[Disco Stu]

yeah, it's weird how some cars align in just a few minutes and yet others take an hour or so. I think it all has to do with how precise the axle hole is drilled. By the way, the links in your post are for the same pic. Is that this year's car or last year's car?

Damn, I always screw that up on my phone. This year on right.

Wow, the new car looks great. How much does it drift (e.g. 2" over 3').Here is a pic of an outlaw I made for a dad's race. It had wheels with bearings.Here is a pic of a car my son made when he was in 3rd grade. He's in Karate and he wanted a ninja car. He drew it out, cut it on the scroll saw, and then we employed all the normal tricks. It was incredibly fast given it's bizarre design, and finished 1st overall in the Pack, and 2nd overall at District.Ninja Car And here is another Outlaw car with bearings.And her is one final one. This car took 1st overall in Pack and I think it was 1st overall in District. Basic car.I bet over 100 cars have been made in my shop. My sons are out of scouting so that's probably the end of it.

Ninja car rules. New car drifts 2-2.5" over 3.5'. The yellow portion is a "hood" cut from 1/16" balsa. Covers up the open portion of the rail rider design. That was a pretty simple way to flawlessly add a second color.My first attempt at an outlaw car is still in work. Needs wheels. I'm not doing anything with bearings or narrow wheels though. The only thing non-standard will be the weight (no limit in our Pack's outlaw races). I found those two tungsten pieces at work. 13.5 ounces each.

 

[Prussian]

Add washers for weight 1\3 back from the nose.Add graphite dust to the axles and inside your axle frames.

 

[Disco Stu]

Add washers for weight 1\3 back from the nose.Add graphite dust to the axles and inside your axle frames.

Woah, woah... slow down there Poindexter.

 

[-jb-]

Not sure if this has been posted or not, but pretty cool.

 

[shuke]

We had a heck of a time with alignment yesterday. I guess we just got lucky last year, when the process was relatively quick and painless. This time it took over two hours. I finally ended up putting a rather severe bend in the front (dominant) axle. The wheel now has some cant to it, but it steers the car into the rail like we wanted.We think it's a little faster than last year's model, but we won't know for sure until Saturday.Just lacks the #21 stickerLower profile than last year

Explain the process of aligning to me that would take that long.

 

[Disco Stu]

We had a heck of a time with alignment yesterday. I guess we just got lucky last year, when the process was relatively quick and painless. This time it took over two hours. I finally ended up putting a rather severe bend in the front (dominant) axle. The wheel now has some cant to it, but it steers the car into the rail like we wanted.We think it's a little faster than last year's model, but we won't know for sure until Saturday.Just lacks the #21 stickerLower profile than last year

Explain the process of aligning to me that would take that long.

I don't have the tool, but this video explains the process pretty well -
For us, the dominant front wheel wasn't cooperating. We could get it to steer left or straight, but not right until bending it. Then tonight my outlaw car was perfect on the first attempt.

 

[JAA]

Here is a little app that helps with alignment: http://www.florian.org/Kids/Scouting/PineAlign/PineAlign.html

This app will tell you if the axle needs to be adjusted up, down, forward, or back, or a combo of that. To make the adjustment, I put a dot on each axle head and then I will gently bend the axle in the direction of the dot. So, if the florian took told you to adjust the axle up I would then insert the axle with the dot at the top. Make sense?

I have been afraid to do this. I just assumed the axles aren't perfectly straight and adjusted based on that. But we also only adjusted the front (dominant) wheel... using it to steer into the rail.How much of a bend are we talking? How far from the head?

And are you using anything special to pull the axles each time?

Disco,I use the pro axle press from this site http://www.maximum-velocity.com/pro-axle.htm. I put an old wheel on the axle and I insert the axle into the tool. I then clamp the tool into a vise. I then gently push on the wheel. That causes the bend in the axle to be at precisely the spot where it meets the wood once the axle is inserted into the car. The reason I use and old wheel is to not mar the internal hub of a good wheel.

I don't use anything special to pull the wheels. Just a gentle pull.

I use 2.5 degrees up in the rear and 1.5 degrees in the front. Maximum velocity has a tool for it

 

[JAA]

What's the easiest way to get the axles in without risking bending them? I did use a drill press to open the holes up some, but still left them undersized so the axles won't go in under just finger pressure.

Can you run a fine bit hand saw through the groove? Or have they changed the kits? Used to be the axles went in to an exposed groove, not a hole.

You can. Yes, there is an exposed groove. I think the axles are .088" in diameter and the groove may be about .062" wide. I am afraid that using a saw would get it too sloppy. We drilled holes at the very top point of the grooves, at about .078" in diameter. Last year we screwed up by jamming one of the axles in crooked and I don't want to force these in.

I'm not sure I understand why it is difficult to insert the axles into the holes. Did you use a #44 drill bit to drill the holes? The axles should go in fairly easily, but still be snug.

I used a .078" bit.

that's the issue then. The axle hole requires a #44 bit, which is .086".

and not sold by lowes. I had to get mine online. Ive read that some stores sell them, but I couldnt find them

 

[Disco Stu]

My car

Son's car on the mirror we used for alignment testing

Clear view of bottom side

 

[gameday]

My carSon's car on the mirror we used for alignment testingClear view of bottom side

Wow . . . very, very nice

 

[rascal]

for 3 years later

 

[sho nuff]

Trying to figure out what my son wants to do this year.I think our race is in early April or late March...so we have a little time.First year was more of a race car design...painted red then he found some flame stickers he liked. Won his age group...finished 4th I think so no more races (I was happy, he was mad he did not get a trophy).Last year he did a shark design that looked pretty good but a little plain on the grey paint and it was hard to see the mouth and teeth because of wheel placement.Same race results...he won his group but 4th overall again I think. Same emotions from him...happy to do what he did but wanted a trophy over a ribbon. I think he would have done better and think I mentioned it earlier in the thread that his started having a few wobbling issues that we worked on as much as we could between races but that last one he said he felt the wheel getting loose as he put it on the track. Oh well.We also did adult and sibling races. My car (low profile with side weights) beat the other dads (and I did not do too much extra other than a little work on polishing the axles...did the same to his). Also raced against the sibling winner and overall winner and beat them all (was surprised it actually beat the kid winner as that car was quite fast.My son stated he wants something similar to my car last year (just because he saw how fast it was). Working on a few designs with him as he wants a low profile but wants a bit more design to it than what I had because he wants it to look really cool.

 

[Disco Stu]

My carSon's car on the mirror we used for alignment testingClear view of bottom side

Wow . . . very, very nice

Thanks. One note with my car is that the weight can be easily adjusted. As shown, it weighs in at 29 ounces. One of the weights can be removed (and the other centered) dropping it to 15.5 ounces. Or they can both be removed and replaced with a silver painted container with fishing weights inside, dropping it to the standard 5 ounces. Hoping to race my son's car at that weight. Hopefully that will be my only loss.

 

[shuke]

Well, we screwed up putting the axles in pretty good tonight. Split the wood in two of the axle insertion points, then overcompensated on a third by enlarging the hole too much before putting the axle in. Ended up have to epoxy all axles in place.

After what I've read here the past couple weeks I know I should have drilled the holes with a larger drill bit, but funny thing is that we didn't predrill the holes at all last year and didn't have this type of problem.

Oh well, I told my son, as long as we had fun and it looks good.

 

[gameday]

Well, we screwed up putting the axles in pretty good tonight. Split the wood in two of the axle insertion points, then overcompensated on a third by enlarging the hole too much before putting the axle in. Ended up have to epoxy all axles in place.After what I've read here the past couple weeks I know I should have drilled the holes with a larger drill bit, but funny thing is that we didn't predrill the holes at all last year and didn't have this type of problem. Oh well, I told my son, as long as we had fun and it looks good.

Too bad about splitting the wood. At least the car looks great Good luck to 'lil Shuke.

 

[Disco Stu]

Weigh-in was last night. It's amazing how far off some of these cars are. 3.5 ounces? C'mon... this is your fourth year doing this. Stop at the post office or something. Even the runner-up from last year was off considerably (5.5) and was about to take a drill to his car when we left. I talked to that dad while in line. He complained that he started too late this year. Turns out he started at least a week before we did, but last year he started in the summer. No wonder those parents were disappointed with second. He also never mentioned "we". There is little chance that kid ever touched those cars. Weigh-in was in the pack leader's garage/workshop. They had the track set up in there, which could be a significant advantage. They're not particularly bright though, so it probably didn't help much. Last week he told me we could come over and test out our cars some time this week, but I didn't take him up on it. Didn't really seem fair. Would be nice to not be anxious about seeing its first run though. Twelve hours away...

 

[shuke]

Well, we screwed up putting the axles in pretty good tonight. Split the wood in two of the axle insertion points, then overcompensated on a third by enlarging the hole too much before putting the axle in. Ended up have to epoxy all axles in place.After what I've read here the past couple weeks I know I should have drilled the holes with a larger drill bit, but funny thing is that we didn't predrill the holes at all last year and didn't have this type of problem. Oh well, I told my son, as long as we had fun and it looks good.

Too bad about splitting the wood. At least the car looks great Good luck to 'lil Shuke.

Thanks. The wheels on this car also seem to have more friction when they spin, but I don't think we did anything different this year than use a finer mesh graphite. Is finer supposed to be better?

 

[shuke]

He also never mentioned "we". There is little chance that kid ever touched those cars.

Sad

 

[gameday]

Weigh-in was last night. It's amazing how far off some of these cars are. 3.5 ounces? C'mon... this is your fourth year doing this. Stop at the post office or something. Even the runner-up from last year was off considerably (5.5) and was about to take a drill to his car when we left. I talked to that dad while in line. He complained that he started too late this year. Turns out he started at least a week before we did, but last year he started in the summer. No wonder those parents were disappointed with second. He also never mentioned "we". There is little chance that kid ever touched those cars. Weigh-in was in the pack leader's garage/workshop. They had the track set up in there, which could be a significant advantage. They're not particularly bright though, so it probably didn't help much. Last week he told me we could come over and test out our cars some time this week, but I didn't take him up on it. Didn't really seem fair. Would be nice to not be anxious about seeing its first run though. Twelve hours away...

Yeah, that's too bad if the dad did all the work and 'lil Scout didn't get to do much (or any). Just not right. One of the boys who made his car at my shop earlier this year, and set a new track record, was most proud of the fact he built nearly the entire thing himself. The only thing he did not do was cut the shape with the band saw. That's just too dangerous for a 9-year-old.Regarding the advantage of having a track, I agree. I used to store the Pack track at my house and I would not let anyone use it for testing purposes for the Pack race. However, I did let them use it for preparation prior to Districts.Good luck. Can't wait to hear the results.

 

[gameday]

Well, we screwed up putting the axles in pretty good tonight. Split the wood in two of the axle insertion points, then overcompensated on a third by enlarging the hole too much before putting the axle in. Ended up have to epoxy all axles in place.

After what I've read here the past couple weeks I know I should have drilled the holes with a larger drill bit, but funny thing is that we didn't predrill the holes at all last year and didn't have this type of problem.

Oh well, I told my son, as long as we had fun and it looks good.

Too bad about splitting the wood. At least the car looks great Good luck to 'lil Shuke.

Thanks. The wheels on this car also seem to have more friction when they spin, but I don't think we did anything different this year than use a finer mesh graphite. Is finer supposed to be better?

hmmmm . . . I just don't know. What I do know, though, is that there definitely is performance differences in the various brands of graphite. I have always relied on the research/testing results on the Max Velocity site, and have always purchased the one that did best.

 

[sho nuff]

Weigh-in was last night. It's amazing how far off some of these cars are. 3.5 ounces? C'mon... this is your fourth year doing this. Stop at the post office or something. Even the runner-up from last year was off considerably (5.5) and was about to take a drill to his car when we left. I talked to that dad while in line. He complained that he started too late this year. Turns out he started at least a week before we did, but last year he started in the summer. No wonder those parents were disappointed with second. He also never mentioned "we". There is little chance that kid ever touched those cars. Weigh-in was in the pack leader's garage/workshop. They had the track set up in there, which could be a significant advantage. They're not particularly bright though, so it probably didn't help much. Last week he told me we could come over and test out our cars some time this week, but I didn't take him up on it. Didn't really seem fair. Would be nice to not be anxious about seeing its first run though. Twelve hours away...

Yeah, that's too bad if the dad did all the work and 'lil Scout didn't get to do much (or any). Just not right. One of the boys who made his car at my shop earlier this year, and set a new track record, was most proud of the fact he built nearly the entire thing himself. The only thing he did not do was cut the shape with the band saw. That's just too dangerous for a 9-year-old.Regarding the advantage of having a track, I agree. I used to store the Pack track at my house and I would not let anyone use it for testing purposes for the Pack race. However, I did let them use it for preparation prior to Districts.Good luck. Can't wait to hear the results.

Same thing with my son.He does the sanding and the painting with little instruction.Last year I cut it for him and put the wheels in...and also taped off the car after the base coat of paint so he could paint a mouth...and then taped again so he could add teeth to it (was a shark shaped car).This year I actually have purchased a scroll saw so that he can actually help do the cutting. Bit safer than the band saw...and a bit easier obviously to add a little curve to it depending on the shape...he went from a simple variation of a wedge design to wanting something star wars (and have seen a few land speeders that look pretty good and can still be fast if done right).He has done well in speed...but thinks he wants a trophy for the best looking car this year. (he got robbed on the shark last year...another shark design took 2nd in best looking and that thing was terrible compared to my son's).

 

[shuke]

Well, we screwed up putting the axles in pretty good tonight. Split the wood in two of the axle insertion points, then overcompensated on a third by enlarging the hole too much before putting the axle in. Ended up have to epoxy all axles in place.After what I've read here the past couple weeks I know I should have drilled the holes with a larger drill bit, but funny thing is that we didn't predrill the holes at all last year and didn't have this type of problem. Oh well, I told my son, as long as we had fun and it looks good.

He came in 7th out of 21 in his rank. I really didn't think he had a chance to finish in the top half. I guess more disappointing is that he didn't win any of the voting awards after I saw a number of kids writing his number down for best space car and most creative.Oh well, at least we don't have to go to districts!

 

[St. Louis Bob]

Well, we screwed up putting the axles in pretty good tonight. Split the wood in two of the axle insertion points, then overcompensated on a third by enlarging the hole too much before putting the axle in. Ended up have to epoxy all axles in place.After what I've read here the past couple weeks I know I should have drilled the holes with a larger drill bit, but funny thing is that we didn't predrill the holes at all last year and didn't have this type of problem. Oh well, I told my son, as long as we had fun and it looks good.

He came in 7th out of 21 in his rank. I really didn't think he had a chance to finish in the top half. I guess more disappointing is that he didn't win any of the voting awards after I saw a number of kids writing his number down for best space car and most creative.Oh well, at least we don't have to go to districts!

& Very obvious your son helped with the car.

 

[Disco Stu]

Boom!

 

[St. Louis Bob]

Boom!

 

[squidrope]

Went to my nephews pwd saturday. Youngest nephew finished first. He did everything himself (good thing cuz dad is useless in this arena) Both kids won prizes for design too! Funny listening to all dads who built slower cars making excuses.

 

[shuke]

Boom!

Impressive.

 

[shuke]

I bought a #44 drill bit yesterday.For next year.

 

[I am the Walrus]

Boom!

Wow! How fast was the outlaw car?

 

[Mr. Pickles]

I bought a #44 drill bit yesterday.For next year.

Dear god.

 

[I am the Walrus]

I don't recall if I posted this before, but if I have, suck it

Anyhow, over the years we have made a lot of cars but my absolute favorite is the Elmo car. It might not look like it, but it was deceivingly fast, taking down the overall 1st place finish at Districts. This was a rail rider that had a center of mass 5/8" in front of the rear axle, and had great axles and wheels.

Elmo

 

[shuke]

I bought a #44 drill bit yesterday.For next year.

Dear god.

I just happened to be at Menard's trying to figure out what to spend my $30 in credit on.

 

[Disco Stu]

Boom!

Wow! How fast was the outlaw car?

It was getting down the 35ft(?) aluminum track in about 2.3 seconds. Son's car was the only regulation car checking in under 2.6 seconds. He was between 2.53 and 2.57 every run IIRC.During open racing at the end, I lightened mine from 29 ounces to 15.5 and beat him fairly comfortably. But then I dropped it to an even 5 and lost handily. His car also edged his district-winning car from last year. Two heats, rotating lanes... new beat old by about an inch both times. So we slightly improved from last year, which was our main goal.

 

[culdeus]

Starting this with my daughter (6). Pray for me. When I was a kid I lived in Fort Worth, one of the dad in our scout troop worked at general dynamics. He got us some gyroscopes off F-16 for the anything goes class. Needless to say our troop took 1st-5th using the gyro parts. Our conformers weren't so great.

 

[culdeus]

Good stuff in here already. Things I learned:

- jig to align wheels and get one front wheel off the track

- redrill the axle holes so you get the longest wheelbase possible

- wedge shaped car and drill 3 holes clear through above the rear axle.

- weigh all components and keep adding bulk fishing weights ($4 a roll?) until you get to the max

- in a ventilated area melt (can you say lead poison?) the lead into the holes

- polish all axles, I clamp them in a drill and use silverware polish

- very lightly polish/sand the inside of the wheels to remove any burrs (I've screwed up wheels going to far)

- I like to get a dab of glue in the axle hole before pushing the axle in, not too much or you'll get a clump on the outside that the wheel will bump

- Check the rules but get as wide of a wheel base as possible too.

Reasoning:

- lower friction with the front wheel off the track, the car must track straight though as it has one less wheel to "guide" it

- getting the long wheelbase gives stability

- weight at the rear of the car gives the greatest kinetic energy

- weight over/near the rear axle helps with tracking; I think we tried with it all the way to the rear, but, the front of the car is a bit more "floppy"

- wide wheel base delays friction that will happhen your car bumps the guide rail, the further out the wheels, the longer it'll be before that first bump

Only let the kid put stickers and crap on the car.

lol

 

[culdeus]

I just got the kit. It is a single straight axle for both ends. now what?

 

[Disco Stu]

I just noticed what a big angle the front wheel had this year. Closer view of all four wheels.

 

[-jb-]

Just found this bad boy, circa 1979. Yes, that's a Battlestar Galactica figure that came with my Viper.

 

[culdeus]

I just noticed what a big angle the front wheel had this year. Closer view of all four wheels.

Does that change your opinion of my situation?

 

[Disco Stu]

I just noticed what a big angle the front wheel had this year. Closer view of all four wheels.

Does that change your opinion of my situation?

No. In this situation "just" meant "two days ago". And the back wheels are flat.Maybe others here have tried running all wheels on the edges though...

 

[Cyclones]

Thanks to the OP for the link to that site. I bought the wedge kit from the site and built the car in about 2 hours. My 10 year old did the sanding/painting/minecraft stickers, and I put the weights and wheel on - the car came first out of 67 cars overall (21 Webelos) and was never threatened - won all four heats by at least a car length, and I know there are some dads in the packs who put a lot of time into it. Car weighed in at 4.9887 ounces. The only thing I did was offset one front wheel - everything else was stock out of the box.

 

[culdeus]

I just noticed what a big angle the front wheel had this year. Closer view of all four wheels.

Does that change your opinion of my situation?

No. In this situation "just" meant "two days ago". And the back wheels are flat.Maybe others here have tried running all wheels on the edges though...

Running on edges just seems problematic. I think unless they were machined perfectly they would wobble quite a bit. Going to just run them flat and see how it goes.

 

[culdeus]

The only thing I'm worried about with the single axle is the rules say that 4 wheels have to touch normally. I don't really know how they check this. So not wanting to get black flagged the first time out I'm not going to try to float one up.

 

[Disco Stu]

District races were Saturday. Stu Jr got first in his den, second overall.

The second place kid from last year edged him out this time.