Player Spotlight: Kellen Winslow (1 Viewer)

[Jason Wood]

2009 Player Spotlight Series

One of Footballguys best assets is our message board community. The Shark Pool is, in our view, the best place on the internet to discuss, debate and analyze all things fantasy football. In what's become an annual tradition, the Player Spotlight series is a key part of the preseason efforts. As many of you know, we consider the Player Spotlight threads the permanent record for analyzing the fantasy prospects of the player in question. Last year, we published more than 120 offensive spotlights covering the vast majority of expected skill position starters. This year will be no different.

Each week we will post a list of players to be discussed. Those threads will remain open for the entire preseason, and should be a central point to discussion expectations for the player in question. Importantly, analysis done in the first week of posting will be part of the permanent record in two ways. 1) At the end of the week, we will tally the projections into a consensus. 2) We will select a number of pull quotes from forum contributors who make a compelling statement or observation. Both the projections and pull quotes will be part of a published article on the main website.

Thread Topic: Kellen Winslow, TE, Tampa Bay Buccaneers

Player Page Link: Kellen Winslow Player Page

Each article will include:

Detailed viewpoint from a Footballguys staff member
Highlighted member commentary from the message board threads
FBG Projections
Consensus Member ProjectionsThe Rules

In order for this thread to provide maximum value, we ask that you follow a few simple guidelines:

Focus commentary on the player in question, and your expectations for said player
Back up your expectations in whatever manner you deem appropriate; avoid posts that simply say "I hate him" or "He's the best"
To be included in the final synopsis and consensus outlook, you MUST provide projections for the playerProjections should include (at a minimum):

For QBs: Attempts, Completions, Passing Yards, Passing TDs, Ints, Rush Yards, Rush TDs
For RBs: Rushes, Rushing Yards, Rush TDs, Receptions, Receiving Yards, Receiving TDs
For WRs & TEs: Receptions, Receiving Yards, Receiving TDsNow let's get on with the conversation! We look forward to your contributions and let me offer a personal thanks in anticipation of the great debate and analysis.

 

[Blackjacks]

Well since no one is commenting on him I'll give it a world.

I still think he is the most talented tight end in football. I don't care what the stats say. I think a new team is just what he needed. I think he will be the focal part of this Tampa Bay offense. I think he will get alot of catches and have every oppurtunity to put up big points.

Hopefully this year this ultimitely talented player can shut up and maximize his potential.

82 catches

925 yards

7 td's

 

[KellysHeroes]

Ceiling of 60 Recs / 700 yds / 5 TDs

 

[finito]

Ceiling of 60 Recs / 700 yds / 5 TDs

Strange ceiling for a guy who has put up better numbers than that already without great QBs.

 

[massraider]

Ceiling of 60 Recs / 700 yds / 5 TDs

Strange ceiling for a guy who has put up better numbers than that already without great QBs.

Not TD numbers, he hasn't. He's had 3-5-3 TDs the last three years. So basically, I think he has had one knee surgery for every 2008 TD. I think he's damaged goods, and the Browns knew it, and went used car salesman on the Bucs. That move got made quickly and quietly, and anytime a talent like Winslow gets moved that fast, eyebrows should be raised. Even if we aren't projecting injury, which a lot of smart people tell you is a fool's errand, you have a guy going to a new offense, with a shaky (at best) QB situation. That's a lot of unknowns. Players roles change when they change teams, it is usually incorrect to just project the same numbers they got with their last team. Having said that, I think his numbers from last year are pretty close. I think he winds up around TE9-12.52 catches, 572 yards, 4 TD

 

[Lab]

82 receptions

950 yards

7 TDs

Winslow and Bryant are really the top two receivers on that team, and it's not a rushing powerhouse, so a fair amount of offense needs to go through them. QB may be a carousel, which makes him a risky pick (on top of Winslow's other risky aspects). Assuming Winslow stays healthy, he should get as many receptions as he received in 14 games in 2007. However, those receptions likely will be for shorter distances because it likely won't be a gutsy rocket-armed QB throwing him the ball (like Anderson was in 2007). I am assuming TDs will be higher than 2007 though because I recall that in 2007 Winslow had a string of several bad-luck games where he got dragged down inside the 5-yard line, so his TDs were deflated. (That's my unverified recollection on 2007 TDs, but I have not confirmed it, so maybe someone will correct me.)

Winslow's stats from his two healthy seasons:

2006 16 games, 89 rec, 875 yds, 3 TDs

2007 14 games, 82 rec, 1106 yds, 5 TDs (pro bowl)

EDIT: I checked some 2007 game logs and my memory was correct. I counted 9 times where Winslow had a reception longer than 10 yards but was brought down within 10 yards of the goal line, plus one other short (2yd) reception where he was brought down within 10 yards of the goal line. I also counted another 7 receptions where he was brought down in the 10-20 yard zone. Given all that, he easily could have had another 5 TDs in 2007.

 

[Birdie048]

Not TD numbers, he hasn't.

He's had 3-5-3 TDs the last three years. So basically, I think he has had one knee surgery for every 2008 TD.

I think he's damaged goods, and the Browns knew it, and went used car salesman on the Bucs. That move got made quickly and quietly, and anytime a talent like Winslow gets moved that fast, eyebrows should be raised.

Even if we aren't projecting injury, which a lot of smart people tell you is a fool's errand, you have a guy going to a new offense, with a shaky (at best) QB situation. That's a lot of unknowns. Players roles change when they change teams, it is usually incorrect to just project the same numbers they got with their last team.

Having said that, I think his numbers from last year are pretty close. I think he winds up around TE9-12.

52 catches, 572 yards, 4 TD

Gotta agree. Sell him high while you can. When camp starts and he is "limited" every week with some ailment, he will lose value like a rock!!I don't think he will break 500 yards.

 

[greggorymac]

Not TD numbers, he hasn't.

He's had 3-5-3 TDs the last three years. So basically, I think he has had one knee surgery for every 2008 TD.

I think he's damaged goods, and the Browns knew it, and went used car salesman on the Bucs. That move got made quickly and quietly, and anytime a talent like Winslow gets moved that fast, eyebrows should be raised.

Even if we aren't projecting injury, which a lot of smart people tell you is a fool's errand, you have a guy going to a new offense, with a shaky (at best) QB situation. That's a lot of unknowns. Players roles change when they change teams, it is usually incorrect to just project the same numbers they got with their last team.

Having said that, I think his numbers from last year are pretty close. I think he winds up around TE9-12.

52 catches, 572 yards, 4 TD

Gotta agree. Sell him high while you can. When camp starts and he is "limited" every week with some ailment, he will lose value like a rock!!I don't think he will break 500 yards.

I wonder which Tampa TE will have more rape allegations against him this season? Winslow or Jeremy Stevens... I should start a poll

 

[massraider]

I wonder which Tampa TE will have more rape allegations against him this season? Winslow or Jeremy Stevens... I should start a poll

You're not adding too much here, guy. And I don't think Winslow has anything close to that kind of history.

 

[nittanylion]

Winslow has talent, you can't question that. He needed a change of scenery...can't question that, either...

...but I do question plenty when it comes to his FF Prospects for 2009.

IMO, Tampa Bay was quite likely one of the worst places he could have found himself, except maybe for the weather, which is a big improvement over Cleveland, Ohio. Maybe the Browns trading him there was them going for getting the last laugh, after all the headaches he caused - trading him to one of the few Teams that might actually be worse than they'll be in '09. I think the Bucs would LIKE him to be a focal point of their Offense...if they had one to begin with. I'm very down on the Bucs prospects for 2009, and I predict they'll be among the bottom Teams in the NFL in Total Offense, and lead the League in 3-and-outs/ Lowest 3rd Down Conversion Percentage. When a Team is behind, they have to throw to keep up, but they have to generate completions to generate statistics. The Bucs have worse than nothing at QB for 2009. I don't buy into Leftwich at all, nor McCown, and the Josh's just plain aren't ready. Graham is an overachiever coming off an injury, Ward, who is a Player I like, is going to have absolutely no room to work, I think, and get swallowed up by 8-man fronts.

No offense to the Buc faithful, but I can't see it being anything but ugly this Season. Teams are going to blanket Antonio Bryant and take him out of the Offense, and dish out a vicious beating to both Ward and Winslow, who are both likely to miss time with injuries, a legitimate concern for both, based on their history. The Defense is still solid, but aging, and is going to spend a whole lot of time being run upon as Opponents grind out clock to put even more pressure on the Bucs weak sister QB's.

Winslow has history with maturity issues. Sending him to the Bucs at this stage of their franchise - rebuilding, youngest HC in the League, and somewhat of a leadership vacuum with the departure of several aging, but respected veterans, is like setting a match to a powder keg, when you consider just how bad this Team could potentially be in '09. Good Luck with that.

Even under optimal circumstances, it's tough drafting him over Gates, Witten and Gonzalez. Under his current circumstances, I'm hard pressed to find any reason to draft him over DlClark, Daniels, Cooley, Olsen, ZMiller, Carlson, Keller, Shiancoe, Fasano or Celek. With more than 12 more enticing options, it puts him on my undraftable list.

Winslow '09: 44 Receptions / 464 Yards Receiving / 3 TD - will miss all or part of about 4 Games, minimum.

Maybe next year, but for Season '09...I'm staying away!

 

[Skanker]

Keep him off motorcycles and he'll be fine.

 

[switz]

I wonder which Tampa TE will have more rape allegations against him this season? Winslow or Jeremy Stevens... I should start a poll

You're not adding too much here, guy. And I don't think Winslow has anything close to that kind of history.

Has Winslow EVER been accused of rape? Quick google search says no.

 

[Art_VanDalay]

Winslow has talent, you can't question that. He needed a change of scenery...can't question that, either......but I do question plenty when it comes to his FF Prospects for 2009.IMO, Tampa Bay was quite likely one of the worst places he could have found himself, except maybe for the weather, which is a big improvement over Cleveland, Ohio. Maybe the Browns trading him there was them going for getting the last laugh, after all the headaches he caused - trading him to one of the few Teams that might actually be worse than they'll be in '09. I think the Bucs would LIKE him to be a focal point of their Offense...if they had one to begin with. I'm very down on the Bucs prospects for 2009, and I predict they'll be among the bottom Teams in the NFL in Total Offense, and lead the League in 3-and-outs/ Lowest 3rd Down Conversion Percentage. When a Team is behind, they have to throw to keep up, but they have to generate completions to generate statistics. The Bucs have worse than nothing at QB for 2009. I don't buy into Leftwich at all, nor McCown, and the Josh's just plain aren't ready. Graham is an overachiever coming off an injury, Ward, who is a Player I like, is going to have absolutely no room to work, I think, and get swallowed up by 8-man fronts.No offense to the Buc faithful, but I can't see it being anything but ugly this Season. Teams are going to blanket Antonio Bryant and take him out of the Offense, and dish out a vicious beating to both Ward and Winslow, who are both likely to miss time with injuries, a legitimate concern for both, based on their history. The Defense is still solid, but aging, and is going to spend a whole lot of time being run upon as Opponents grind out clock to put even more pressure on the Bucs weak sister QB's.Winslow has history with maturity issues. Sending him to the Bucs at this stage of their franchise - rebuilding, youngest HC in the League, and somewhat of a leadership vacuum with the departure of several aging, but respected veterans, is like setting a match to a powder keg, when you consider just how bad this Team could potentially be in '09. Good Luck with that.Even under optimal circumstances, it's tough drafting him over Gates, Witten and Gonzalez. Under his current circumstances, I'm hard pressed to find any reason to draft him over DlClark, Daniels, Cooley, Olsen, ZMiller, Carlson, Keller, Shiancoe, Fasano or Celek. With more than 12 more enticing options, it puts him on my undraftable list.Winslow '09: 44 Receptions / 464 Yards Receiving / 3 TD - will miss all or part of about 4 Games, minimum.Maybe next year, but for Season '09...I'm staying away!

(HOMER ALERT) Call me crazy guys but I think that TB is one of those teams that everyone agrees on in July/August and then says they aren't totally shocked at how their season is going when October/November rolls around. I think it is easy to dismiss the Bucs this year but upon further analysis I am not so sure. Most people agree that you build a team from the inside out and on offense, I think the Bucs have one of the most underrated OLs who are young and getting better each year. The addition of Winslow, even if he is slowed as many are suggesting here, will at a minimum keep defenses from totally rolling their coverage to Bryant on the outside for fear that he will hurt them in the seam vs. LBs. The addition of Ward with Graham should ensure that they have a servicable to very good running game where both RBs can also catch the ball very well and handle any checkdowns and do something with them. Bryant was signed to a one year tender which was very smart and should keep him motivated to put up very good numbers. The problem with Bryant in Cleveland and Dallas was not his talent but keeping his head on straight. If he stays out of trouble, he can handle the #1 WR role very well. On the other side of the ball, clearly they are in flux and the changes of Phillips to LB and filling some other holes may not be pretty at times. I think Gaines Adams will start to really exert himself this year and Taleb is ready to emerge as an up and coming star at left CB. This defense will clearly give up points in anti-bucs fashion this year but that will only help the fantasy numbers on offense imo although not so much for the RBs.As for the Coach, everyone in the NFL has said that this guy Morris has the makings to be a real good one so we will see. I have always been a fan of Chucky but I think this is addition by subtraction. Gruden's offense has worn thin and after watching them during his tenure, they would talk about running the ball from Monday to Saturday and then throw all over the place on Sunday when their personnel didn't compliment that game plan. This change may be overall a positive change in Tampa. I realize I didn't mention the most important position - QB and yes that is an important weakness on this team going forward but I think the smart money is on McCown finally taking his chance and running with it. His ability to scramble when the pocket breaks down will only help this young team and Leftwich is not the answer imo. We already know what he can do and his ceiling is low. Interested to hear others points of view and I know I am in the minority but I think it is hard to argue with some of the talent they still have on this squad. Lastly, granted the schedule is tough with that division and that is why I think most people are writing them off but remember that Atlanta never put back to back winning seasons together, Delhomme doesn't scare anyone in Carolina and DeAngelo has to come down from last year and JStew is already looking a little like the frustrating years of Robert Smith in MN while NO will follow the same blueprint as last year and lose games 34-33, etc. since their defense is better but not by much imo.

 

[switz]

No offense to the Buc faithful, but I can't see it being anything but ugly this Season. Teams are going to blanket Antonio Bryant and take him out of the Offense, and dish out a vicious beating to both Ward and Winslow, who are both likely to miss time with injuries, a legitimate concern for both, based on their history.

Winslow has history with maturity issues. Sending him to the Bucs at this stage of their franchise - rebuilding, youngest HC in the League, and somewhat of a leadership vacuum with the departure of several aging, but respected veterans, is like setting a match to a powder keg, when you consider just how bad this Team could potentially be in '09. Good Luck with that.

Even under optimal circumstances, it's tough drafting him over Gates, Witten and Gonzalez. Under his current circumstances, I'm hard pressed to find any reason to draft him over DlClark, Daniels, Cooley, Olsen, ZMiller, Carlson, Keller, Shiancoe, Fasano or Celek. With more than 12 more enticing options, it puts him on my undraftable list.

Wow... filled with many contradictions...First, did you not watch any Bucs games last season? Most teams double covered Bryant, he was TBs only real receiving weapon out there.

Second, if they double Bryant, it will only open up things for Winslow.

Third, Winslow's PPG put him in the top-5 of TEs last season - in CLE of all places. This year things won't be any worse, they will likely be better, even if slightly. His '07 stats put him as the #2 TE. His '06 were clearly in the top-5 as well.

Fourth, despite playing on only 10 games last season, Winslow significantly outproduced Brent Celek, so I'm having a hard time seeing any reason why you'd draft Celek before Winslow at all.

Fifth, Winslow's injury last season was not football related. It wasn't his knee. He played in all 16 games the previous two seasons, and the rumors of his knees being shot are just that, rumors, without any evidence on the field. FYI - this last surgery was not to repair the knee at all, it was to remove scar tissue... the knee is structurally sound by all account.

Sixth, as far as maturity issues go... Winslow is a leader, a very vocal leader, and if the Bucs have a leadership vacuum as you say, his addition will be good for the team. He talks the talk and walks the walk.

My prediction for Winslow:

85 receptions, 860 yards, 6 TDs = 122 points, top-3 TE.

 

[daespring]

Yup...hopefully its to humid out there to ride around!

Keep him off motorcycles and he'll be fine.

 

[brutha]

Ceiling of 60 Recs / 700 yds / 5 TDs

Strange ceiling for a guy who has put up better numbers than that already without great QBs.

Not TD numbers, he hasn't. He's had 3-5-3 TDs the last three years. So basically, I think he has had one knee surgery for every 2008 TD. I think he's damaged goods, and the Browns knew it, and went used car salesman on the Bucs. That move got made quickly and quietly, and anytime a talent like Winslow gets moved that fast, eyebrows should be raised. Even if we aren't projecting injury, which a lot of smart people tell you is a fool's errand, you have a guy going to a new offense, with a shaky (at best) QB situation. That's a lot of unknowns. Players roles change when they change teams, it is usually incorrect to just project the same numbers they got with their last team. Having said that, I think his numbers from last year are pretty close. I think he winds up around TE9-12.52 catches, 572 yards, 4 TD

all around

 

[switz]

Having said that, I think his numbers from last year are pretty close. I think he winds up around TE9-12.52 catches, 572 yards, 4 TD

all around

Not at all... pretty bad posting actually. Speculation running wild in that post, with zero basis.Poor projections based on what? His balls swelling again?

 

[Billy Ball Thorton]

Winslow is going to be a Stud, period.

85 catches 1020 yds 7 tds.

#1 FANTASY TE

What I dont get is everyone calling him injury prone because he got an infection last year in a place that just eneded someones carear for poor medical care, and a motor cycle wreck. He's as talented as any TE, healthy and I think makes a case to be top dog. Byron Leftwich is as good as any QB that has thrown to him.

Clevelad was a disaster and Winslow playing the Falcons and Saints sound alot better to me than the Ravens and Steelers. Anyone who passes on him in favor of Owen Daniel, Dallas Clark type will come to reget that.

Again this is my OPINION not gospel.

 

[thecardiackid]

I wonder which Tampa TE will have more rape allegations against him this season? Winslow or Jeremy Stevens... I should start a poll

You're not adding too much here, guy. And I don't think Winslow has anything close to that kind of history.

Has Winslow EVER been accused of rape?

do fantasy teams/owners count? I like the move KWIII, and think if they use him like they're talking heads are saying they will - he'll put up top 5ish #s. Probably a decent value @ his ADP.65/800/5

 

[cvnpoka]

Winslow is going to be a Stud, period.

85 catches 1020 yds 7 tds.

#1 FANTASY TE

What I dont get is everyone calling him injury prone because he got an infection last year in a place that just eneded someones carear for poor medical care, and a motor cycle wreck. He's as talented as any TE, healthy and I think makes a case to be top dog. Byron Leftwich is as good as any QB that has thrown to him.

Clevelad was a disaster and Winslow playing the Falcons and Saints sound alot better to me than the Ravens and Steelers. Anyone who passes on him in favor of Owen Daniel, Dallas Clark type will come to reget that.

Again this is my OPINION not gospel.

the motor cycle accident literally obliterated his knee. hes not injury prone. hes just damaged. the infection has nothing to do with it. hes had at least 4 knee surgeries and that includes a rebuild and microfracture. he walks with a perpetual limp and has admitted in the paper that he has a hard time getting up stairs.http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3262070

now, hes still a beast and and is still possibly capable of producing but its pretty risky imo. from an organization standpoint, i think the browns completely raped the bucs in that deal.

 

[Billy Ball Thorton]

Winslow is going to be a Stud, period.

85 catches 1020 yds 7 tds.

#1 FANTASY TE

What I dont get is everyone calling him injury prone because he got an infection last year in a place that just eneded someones carear for poor medical care, and a motor cycle wreck. He's as talented as any TE, healthy and I think makes a case to be top dog. Byron Leftwich is as good as any QB that has thrown to him.

Clevelad was a disaster and Winslow playing the Falcons and Saints sound alot better to me than the Ravens and Steelers. Anyone who passes on him in favor of Owen Daniel, Dallas Clark type will come to reget that.

Again this is my OPINION not gospel.

the motor cycle accident literally obliterated his knee. hes not injury prone. hes just damaged. the infection has nothing to do with it. hes had at least 4 knee surgeries and that includes a rebuild and microfracture. he walks with a perpetual limp and has admitted in the paper that he has a hard time getting up stairs.http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3262070

now, hes still a beast and and is still possibly capable of producing but its pretty risky imo. from an organization standpoint, i think the browns completely raped the bucs in that deal.

That article was from 1.5 years ago and he had surgery to have scar tissue removed. I fail to see where he knee is obliterated. Sorry but no team is going to pay that coin to a TE if their physical showed the knee was indeed obliterated.

 

[cvnpoka]

That article was from 1.5 years ago and he had surgery to have scar tissue removed

the point of that article was not that he "just had scar tissue removed." its that he has had 4 knee surgeries since the motorcycle accident. seems that details from the accident were a bit guarded at the time but it was confirmed that he tore his acl. and since he subsequently required microfracture sugery its pretty clear that there was cartilage damage. perhaps my wording was a bit harsh for you but its at least safe to say that winslow sustained a very very serious injury to his knee.torn acl. microfracture. 4 surgeries in 3 years. rather than getting hung up on a throwaway word, think about the facts.

 

[Bills_Fan11]

Maybe in the arena of real football he was a nice pick-up who will give their offense a needed lift.

For fantasy purposes I feel like he is Shockey from 4 yrs ago - the TE who has established name recognition and will never be on my team. If I don't get one of the top 3 TE's I just can't see using a mid-round pick on him over a 3rd RB/WR. I just don't trust that they'll be enough separation between him and Boss/Keller etc who you can get in the last round. Would be curious to hear other options on the board for anyone to takes him though.

 

[TheFanatic]

That article was from 1.5 years ago and he had surgery to have scar tissue removed

the point of that article was not that he "just had scar tissue removed." its that he has had 4 knee surgeries since the motorcycle accident. seems that details from the accident were a bit guarded at the time but it was confirmed that he tore his acl. and since he subsequently required microfracture sugery its pretty clear that there was cartilage damage. perhaps my wording was a bit harsh for you but its at least safe to say that winslow sustained a very very serious injury to his knee.torn acl. microfracture. 4 surgeries in 3 years. rather than getting hung up on a throwaway word, think about the facts.

The "facts" are these. He had MF surgery in January of 2007. He followed that surgery up with 1100 yards. But the biggest fact is that the Bucs made him the highest paid TE in the league. The people that gave him that contract do not spend their days jerking around on a FFB site pretending to be GM's of teams. The people who gave him that contract know what they are doing. The medical staff they hired to examine KW over and over know what they are doing. The team would not spend that type of money on a player without being sure he is healthy.

One other thing to consider about his and the health of any other Brown - there is something distinctly wrong with the medical staff in Cleveland. What was the deal with all those staph infections... He may be in better medical hands now...

 

[cvnpoka]

and what of the browns management that refused to resign him or give him an extension? teams sign players to bad contracts all the time. you cant just say that bc someone signed him to big bucks means that he is completely fine.

also, its a bit contradicting to mention reservations about the browns medical staff as evidence that winslow is healthy.

 

[TheFanatic]

and what of the browns management that refused to resign him or give him an extension?

You mean the Browns with a new coach? New coaches bring in their own guys and dump previous regime guys all the time. Denver dumped Cutler, does that make him a bad QB?

teams sign players to bad contracts all the time. you cant just say that bc someone signed him to big bucks means that he is completely fine.

Oh, he can definitely still get injured. Anything is possible here. But do you think that they didn't have any specialists check him out thoroughly before they offered the contract? If he gets injured I doubt it would be the knee. He might injure something else, but I doubt it would be the knee. In fact I can't think of a single time that someone blew and ACL and then blew it again later.

also, its a bit contradicting to mention reservations about the browns medical staff as evidence that winslow is healthy.

I didn't use the browns medical staff to show he is healthy. If it came across that way then I did not explain it all that well. What I'm saying is that he may have gotten the best medical advice while with the Browns. There are clearly issues with the Browns medical staff. That may have contributed to KW's injuries and now that he is with a team that I can't recall hearing any issues about their medical staff then maybe he will be on the field more. I mean the job of the medical staffs is to keep these guys healthy and on the field. Playing for a team with a better staff should help that. But again, he could have a golf cart drive over his ankle tomorrow and this discussion is moot...My whole point here is that a professional team that is not the Lions put a lot of faith and money in KWII. I trust that over what someone on a FFB website conjectures...

 

[cvnpoka]

28 professional teams apparently did not put any faith in him. that includes the team that knows the most about him.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/...ade_kellen.html

Savage worried about Winslow's career longevity after his right knee sustained at least six surgical procedures since he wrecked his high-speed motorcycle practicing stunts in May of 2006.

so it appears the gm with the most knowledge of the situation was indeed worried about it. also the amount of possible surgeries is up to 6.

 

[cvnpoka]

a few other things from memory. winslow rarely practices at full speed due to his knee. he is in constant pain. he has mentioned walking up stairs is painful. most of these were in articles from the 2 cleveland area papers. i did some research but couldnt find the articles so i gave up.

anyway, ive heard a lot of bad things about his health for the last 2-3 years. maybe its all bs.

 

[Billy Ball Thorton]

and what of the browns management that refused to resign him or give him an extension? teams sign players to bad contracts all the time. you cant just say that bc someone signed him to big bucks means that he is completely fine.

also, its a bit contradicting to mention reservations about the browns medical staff as evidence that winslow is healthy.

28 professional teams apparently did not put any faith in him. that includes the team that knows the most about him.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/...ade_kellen.html

Savage worried about Winslow's career longevity after his right knee sustained at least six surgical procedures since he wrecked his high-speed motorcycle practicing stunts in May of 2006.

so it appears the gm with the most knowledge of the situation was indeed worried about it. also the amount of possible surgeries is up to 6.

You mean the same GM he had a falling out with this year and called him out. Maybe just maybe thats why he was not asked back. Not too mention they knew he wanted to be paid like the to TE that he is. Browns as a franchise are worthless and the fact that they traded Winlslow has nothing to do with injury but bad blood.Does Braylon Edwards have an injury that we dont know about because they tried to get rid of hi as well. The other

the other 28 teams that passed on Winslow were out bidded. Trust me there are several teams that would love to have him.

Bottom line the last time we heard about Winslow knee being a problem was a long time ago.

 

[cvnpoka]

Bottom line the last time we heard about Winslow knee being a problem was a long time ago.

what about the 4-6 surgeries in 4 years? the surgery last offseason, and the microfracture the year before? i just looked it up. hes played 44 in the last 5 seasons.other than the knee hes had shoulder and ankle problems. i just dont understand how you guys can just dismiss all the wear and tear on this guy. and all the games missed.

 

[cvnpoka]

You mean the same GM he had a falling out with this year and called him out. Maybe just maybe thats why he was not asked back. Not too mention they knew he wanted to be paid like the to TE that he is.

winslow made like 20m over 5 yrs with the browns. the browns had every legal right to not pay him the ~5m for the year he missed after driving his motorcycle like an idiot. they still paid him. in return he #####ed to the media and demanded a trade. so ya, to me it seems understandable that the gm "called him out."

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

28 professional teams apparently did not put any faith in him. that includes the team that knows the most about him.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/...ade_kellen.html

Savage worried about Winslow's career longevity after his right knee sustained at least six surgical procedures since he wrecked his high-speed motorcycle practicing stunts in May of 2006.

so it appears the gm with the most knowledge of the situation was indeed worried about it. also the amount of possible surgeries is up to 6.

The Buccs gave up a 5th and 2nd. That's a second round pick more than randy moss went for.I can't imagine they did this without doing a physical. So unless you know anything else, I'll trust their doctors over your speculation.

But this will allow you to get him cheaply.

 

[Routilla]

I don't like the TB QB situation for where he is being picked. I'll pass.

 

[Billy Ball Thorton]

I don't like the TB QB situation for where he is being picked. I'll pass.

Because in Cleveland the QBS's are so much better?

 

[Routilla]

I don't like the TB QB situation for where he is being picked. I'll pass.

Because in Cleveland the QBS's are so much better?

I don't know about that but I didn't have Winslow rated worth drafting last year either. Both teams have serious QB problems IMO. Winslow had 43 for 428 and 3TDs last year. I'm not impressed enough to think a new team is going to make him good enough to draft over several other guys going later in terms of ADP.

 

[todisco1]

I don't like the TB QB situation for where he is being picked. I'll pass.

Because in Cleveland the QBS's are so much better?

I don't know about that but I didn't have Winslow rated worth drafting last year either. Both teams have serious QB problems IMO. Winslow had 43 for 428 and 3TDs last year. I'm not impressed enough to think a new team is going to make him good enough to draft over several other guys going later in terms of ADP.

He only started 8 games last year. QBs weren't the problem - injuries were. He plays great with any QB. If you think he's going to be hurt that's one thing, but last season he was producing when healthy. If he's healthy he should produce with whoever is chucking the ball in TB.

 

[switz]

Bottom line the last time we heard about Winslow knee being a problem was a long time ago.

hes played 44 in the last 5 seasons.

Lat season was the first time in 3 years he'd missed a game. And the reason he missed games last year had nothing to do with his knee, and you know it. You sound like someone who is desperately throwing out misinformation so you can grab him late in a draft.

5 years ago he missed the entire season due to a motorcycle wreck. 4 years ago he missed part of the season, still recuperating from that accident.

Three years ago his knee was fully healed and he has not missed a single game due to the knee since.

/injury-prone-argument

 

[TheFanatic]

Whole lot of supposition and coach speak in the last few posts.

Painful walking up stairs? Sorry no link? Puuhhllleeeeaaassseee.

Oh, wait, the GM came out and said bad things about a guy he just traded away? He's got some spin control he needs to manage there. Particularly since he just moved his best receiving threat on the team. What's he going to say? "Well, at least he can hold onto the ball when it hits him in the hands. I sure wish someone had made that same offer to us for Edwards as I would've moved him in a heartbeat for that."

And I have to agree with Switz, as much as it pains me to do so, it seems the knee is just fine and has been so for a couple of years. I mean who has 1100 yards after MF surgery?

 

[switz]

I have to agree with Switz, as much as it pains me to do so

 

[cvnpoka]

Lat season was the first time in 3 years he'd missed a game. And the reason he missed games last year had nothing to do with his knee, and you know it. You sound like someone who is desperately throwing out misinformation so you can grab him late in a draft.

5 years ago he missed the entire season due to a motorcycle wreck. 4 years ago he missed part of the season, still recuperating from that accident.

Three years ago his knee was fully healed and he has not missed a single game due to the knee since.

/injury-prone-argument

i pointed out in my post that his ankle and shoulder had been problems. there was no misinformation. i mean, hes had knee problems, shoulder problems, and missed games bc of ankle problems. how can you possibly argue that hes not injury prone?the arguments in this thread are that the tampa bay bucs are an infallible organization that would never overpay or misevaluate a player. my argument is that a guy who has had at least 4 surgeries on his knee, which suffered a torn acl, cartilage damage and damage to his kneecap is a high risk to break down. further that same player has had shoulder and ankle problems

i have no agenda. im not even a browns fan. i happen to live in cleveland so i have been hearing about winslow problems for 4 years. i have heard him say things like "my knee always hurts but at 80% i am still the best te in the league." i have heard the organization mention reservation about his health. and this was years ago, before they were trying to trade him. and even if they were trying to trade him, dont you think its pretty dumb to publicly say those things and possibly drive his value down?

sorry im not gonna dig up articles from years ago, esp when you instantly dismiss the ones i do link.

and do you really think that making posts on here is gonna drive a players draft position down? im not in any leagues with yall.

 

[TheFanatic]

the arguments in this thread are that the tampa bay bucs are an infallible organization that would never overpay or misevaluate a player.

No one is making this argument. The argument here is, even the worst team in the league, even the Lions, know more about evaluating talent and the health of players than even the most ardent FFB owner who watches this stuff closely. Even someone living in Cleveland who reads the paper, watches the news and listens to sports talk radio. No team is infallible, but they know more than anyone on this board does.

sorry im not gonna dig up articles from years ago, esp when you instantly dismiss the ones i do link.

What should we look at in the article you provided a link to? This one:

the motor cycle accident literally obliterated his knee. hes not injury prone. hes just damaged. the infection has nothing to do with it. hes had at least 4 knee surgeries and that includes a rebuild and microfracture. he walks with a perpetual limp and has admitted in the paper that he has a hard time getting up stairs.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3262070

In the quote above you talk about him walking with a perpetual limp and that he has a hard time getting up stairs. You imply that the article supports that claim. I have pasted in the entire article here. No where does it talk about a limp or stairs. In fact Crennel stated that only a few days after the surgery he was getting around pretty good.

Cleveland Browns tight end Kellen Winslow went under the knife again on his oft-injured right knee, according to various media reports.

Winslow's agent Drew Rosenhaus, who has spoken recently about wanting to renegotiate his client's contract, said Winslow's surgery after he returned from the Pro Bowl was an elective procedure to clean out scar tissue.

"He didn't have to do [the scope]," Rosenhaus told several Ohio media outlets. "He just had some scar tissue removed. It will make him a better player. It wasn't necessary. That's why he was able to play in the Pro Bowl. So I don't think Kellen's health is a factor and we hope to get a deal done with the team."

Browns coach Romeo Crennel said Winslow's rehabilitation is going well.

"Kellen did have his knee cleaned out, but I saw him in the hall the other day," Crennel told The Cleveland Plain Dealer. "He's rehabbing and he's moving pretty good. It was just a minor cleanout and he's all right." Crennel said

As far as Winslow's ailing shoulder, Crennel told the newspaper, "I think he feels pretty good about it and he might let it try to go."

The surgery on Winslow's right knee was at least the fourth procedure he had done after crashing his motorcycle in 2005.

In 2007, Winslow had 82 catches for career-highs of 1,106 receiving yards and five touchdowns.

This article is about scar tissue getting removed. Do you know how many starting players get that procedure done every year? You are making a big deal out of coach speak and what seems to me all sports radio hosts and columnists trying to sell advertising. I have a question. Give me an honest answer. If Winslow had a perpetual limp and had problems climbing stairs, do you really think they would've traded for him and given him an extension? Do you think they would've traded for him without their own medical staff giving him a clean bill of health? Or do you think they just took the word of KW and the Browns Medical Staff?

 

[MAC_32]

Did the NFL legalize offensive pass interference?

If they did then Winslow's going to be gold.

 

[TheFanatic]

Did the NFL legalize offensive pass interference?If they did then Winslow's going to be gold.

If you ask the older guys like Chris Carter he would say that indeed, the NFL has legalized this....

 

[cvnpoka]

i didnt imply that was what the article said.

in fact, i said that it was mentioned in other articles from the cleveland area papers. i said from the start it was from my memory. the reading comprehension itt is pretty abysmal.

 

[switz]

Lat season was the first time in 3 years he'd missed a game. And the reason he missed games last year had nothing to do with his knee, and you know it. You sound like someone who is desperately throwing out misinformation so you can grab him late in a draft.

5 years ago he missed the entire season due to a motorcycle wreck. 4 years ago he missed part of the season, still recuperating from that accident.

Three years ago his knee was fully healed and he has not missed a single game due to the knee since.

/injury-prone-argument

i pointed out in my post that his ankle and shoulder had been problems. there was no misinformation. i mean, hes had knee problems, shoulder problems, and missed games bc of ankle problems. how can you possibly argue that hes not injury prone?

When is the last time he missed a game due to shoulder, ankle, or knee issues?FYI - the 6 games he missed last season were not due to any of those issues, and prior to that he hadn't missed a game since 2005.

 

[MAC_32]

Lat season was the first time in 3 years he'd missed a game. And the reason he missed games last year had nothing to do with his knee, and you know it. You sound like someone who is desperately throwing out misinformation so you can grab him late in a draft.

5 years ago he missed the entire season due to a motorcycle wreck. 4 years ago he missed part of the season, still recuperating from that accident.

Three years ago his knee was fully healed and he has not missed a single game due to the knee since.

/injury-prone-argument

i pointed out in my post that his ankle and shoulder had been problems. there was no misinformation. i mean, hes had knee problems, shoulder problems, and missed games bc of ankle problems. how can you possibly argue that hes not injury prone?

When is the last time he missed a game due to shoulder, ankle, or knee issues?FYI - the 6 games he missed last season were not due to any of those issues, and prior to that he hadn't missed a game since 2005.

He suffered a high ankle sprain sometime around week 13 and (I think) missed the rest of the season. The hidden staph infection is why he missed time early-midseason.

His shoulder's been in a sling for multiple weeks each of the last two seasons, but I don't think he ever missed any games because of it.

He played like dog #### last year, the only way he could gain separation was to push off, and he was much worse fighting for the ball in traffic than previous seasons (something he had to do because he couldn't get open on his own anymore). The times in which he was open and not on a 2 yard flat route were very few and far between.

He did not have any offseason surgery as far as I know so apparently health-wise he's fine.

If you want to gamble on him magically getting better a/o his poor play was just because he hated his situation in Cleveland (knowing him I doubt he'd do that) go right ahead, but there's really no reason outside of 'he was a top 10 draft pick talent' to believe he bounces back this year. I imagine most who are willing to take a chance on Winslow are the same people that still haven't written off Vernon Davis.

 

[massraider]

Well, that's settled.

Aside from the ankle, shoulder, staph infection, and four knee surgeries, everything is cool.

 

[thecardiackid]

Lat season was the first time in 3 years he'd missed a game. And the reason he missed games last year had nothing to do with his knee, and you know it. You sound like someone who is desperately throwing out misinformation so you can grab him late in a draft.

5 years ago he missed the entire season due to a motorcycle wreck. 4 years ago he missed part of the season, still recuperating from that accident.

Three years ago his knee was fully healed and he has not missed a single game due to the knee since.

/injury-prone-argument

i pointed out in my post that his ankle and shoulder had been problems. there was no misinformation. i mean, hes had knee problems, shoulder problems, and missed games bc of ankle problems. how can you possibly argue that hes not injury prone?

When is the last time he missed a game due to shoulder, ankle, or knee issues?FYI - the 6 games he missed last season were not due to any of those issues, and prior to that he hadn't missed a game since 2005.

He suffered a high ankle sprain sometime around week 13 and (I think) missed the rest of the season. The hidden staph infection is why he missed time early-midseason.

His shoulder's been in a sling for multiple weeks each of the last two seasons, but I don't think he ever missed any games because of it.

He played like dog #### last year, the only way he could gain separation was to push off, and he was much worse fighting for the ball in traffic than previous seasons (something he had to do because he couldn't get open on his own anymore). The times in which he was open and not on a 2 yard flat route were very few and far between.

He did not have any offseason surgery as far as I know so apparently health-wise he's fine.

If you want to gamble on him magically getting better a/o his poor play was just because he hated his situation in Cleveland (knowing him I doubt he'd do that) go right ahead, but there's really no reason outside of 'he was a top 10 draft pick talent' to believe he bounces back this year. I imagine most who are willing to take a chance on Winslow are the same people that still haven't written off Vernon Davis.

good stuff there MAC.and you're right, he's a gamble - but getting a few of those right usually = at least a decent playoff run. @ his ADP I think he's worth the risk. however, those drafting Winslow should probably start the TE2 run vs. finish it.

if manages not to get injured, and maybe he's somehow motivated by the change of scenery, he'll at least make for a better than average check down option. especailly w/ one of Freeman, Lefty or McCown as the starting qb and only Bryant as a serious threat in the passing game.

bottom line is he will have been a draft day *steal* if TB can figure out how to get him in the endzone in addition to the (hopefully) 70 or so receptions. injuries aside, the consistently low TD #s over his career do not help his cause. sure, you can't predict TDs, but I don't see much reason to be overly optimitic about him becoming a TD machine.

Disclosure: recently drafted him in a $ dynasty startup (owners mostly from here) in the 7th and then J Carlson SEA in the 12th - and a Browns fan.

 

[switz]

If you want to gamble on him magically getting better a/o his poor play was just because he hated his situation in Cleveland (knowing him I doubt he'd do that) go right ahead, but there's really no reason outside of 'he was a top 10 draft pick talent' to believe he bounces back this year. I imagine most who are willing to take a chance on Winslow are the same people that still haven't written off Vernon Davis.

I stand corrected on the ankle, though I had heard it was staph again. Top-5 TE PPG to me isn't poor play. I think some guys just dislike certain players, just as other guys like certain players, and you don't get unbiased comments from those people. I dunno.

I look at KW in TB, and I see a match made in heaven. Young, and bad QBs, tend to rely on their TEs a lot! TB I guarantee has better medical staff (not staph) than CLE. And I think the atmosphere in general will be better.

 

[Righetti]

Per Rotoworld

Kellen Winslow revealed that he needed fluid drained from his #### after catching a staph infection last season.

"My #### were enlarged, to the point where it hurt to walk," Winslow said. The incident led to a severe falling out with the Browns, and Winslow passed the staph infection to his wife Janelle, who also needed to be hospitalized. "I had to clean it every day with a Q-Tip, for two and a half weeks," Winslow added. "It was the most painful thing I've ever been through."