Priest Holmes (1 Viewer)

[houstonlibrarian]

I realize it's a pipe dream, but if Priest had not gotten hurt....

He has 86 rushing touchdowns which puts him at #14 on the all time list.

He has 94 total touchdowns which puts him at #22 on the all time list.

He has 11,134 yards from scrimmage which puts him at #58 on the all time list.

Three time pro bowler, three time first team all pro.

Any chance of a HOF?

 

[Sweet Love]

He played in a time when rushing numbers were off the charts. He was very good for a short period of time (he started slow in Balt and had to retire before he could "pad his stats). It was a nice run, but he also would have been served well if Larry Johnson did not step into the same offense and light it up too before the O-Line (and eventually Vermeil) retired.

 

[CaptainHook]

not close at all

 

[ninerfanatic492000]

his story to stardom was pretty amazing. bad knee injury then benched for Ricky at UT. ozzie newsome gives him a shot when nobody drafts him and after he starts rolling after a few years he blows out his other knee. then ozzie and the ravens draft Jamal Lewis and Priest basically watches as the Ravens win a super bowl. then poof he leaves and vermeil makes him his Faulk. Faulk with a uncanny nose for the endzone............my lord was he so dominant during his cheif stretch

i know many will prolly respond that he played behind a great OL(which he did) but thats only part of the story. guy was as determined as they come and kept/put himself into almost cartoonish physical shape..............i guess that made Merriman his cryptonite.

 

[vikingdave]

about as close as I am to the HOF...

 

[Mr_Kennedy]

He's a poor man's Terrell Davis; both were the best at their position for about a 2 year stretch but injuries made them retire too early. And Davis never came close to the call from the Hall.

 

[Ghost Rider]

He's a poor man's Terrell Davis; both were the best at their position for about a 2 year stretch but injuries made them retire too early. And Davis never came close to the call from the Hall.

Plus, thought not his fault, Holmes was never the dominant postseason RB that Davis was, and he doesn't have the hardware or awards that Davis has (TD has two SB rings, and two MVP awards; Holmes has 1 SB ring, which he got as a backup). Considering Davis hasn't really come close to making the Hall yet, Holmes doesn't have a prayer.

 

[Mr_Kennedy]

not close at all

I just hope he gets more votes than Shaun Alexander.

 

[LHUCKS]

not gonna happen

 

[Mikey16x]

Hall of extremely good.

 

[Football Critic]

about as close as I am to the HOF...

He can pay and go around to see the busts in Canton like everyone else, lol.

 

[Buffaloes]

He's a poor man's Terrell Davis; both were the best at their position for about a 2 year stretch but injuries made them retire too early. And Davis never came close to the call from the Hall.

Plus, thought not his fault, Holmes was never the dominant postseason RB that Davis was, and he doesn't have the hardware or awards that Davis has (TD has two SB rings, and two MVP awards; Holmes has 1 SB ring, which he got as a backup). Considering Davis hasn't really come close to making the Hall yet, Holmes doesn't have a prayer.

That's what I thought of too. I know we are Denver homers but if TD is not in, I see no reason for why Holmes would get the nod.

 

[thehornet]

Echoing simliar comments. The career longevity just isnt there. Fine player in his prime though.

 

[garlicduck]

But...he will be elected to the Fantasy Football Hall of Fame!

 

[TommyGilmore]

Priest >> Terrell Davis.

 

[Buffaloes]

Priest >> Terrell Davis.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Priest >> Terrell Davis.

Tell me, what color is the sky in your world?

 

[David Yudkin]

I think any chance Holmes had went out the window when Larry Johnson stepped in for Priest and put up over 5100 yards of offense and 51 TD in 2.5 seasons of football playing with basically the same offense (or one that was older and not as good). Johnson averaged 122.6 yfs and 1.21 TD per game in that time.

By comparison, Holmes averaged 141.6 yfs and 1.41 TD/gm over a 3.5 year stretch (mostly because he was more of a receiving threat). Sure, he was a little more productive than Johnson but not by much. IMO, had Johnson tanked playing with the same OL and system, people could have said Holmes was the main reason for the big numbers.

 

[TommyGilmore]

Priest >> Terrell Davis.

Tell me, what color is the sky in your world?

Priest 2002 > Davis 1998Priest 2003 > Davis 1997Priest 2004 > Davis 2001 (both played 8 games)Priest 2001 = Davis 1996Davis 1995 > Priest 1998Disagree?

 

[Buffaloes]

Priest >> Terrell Davis.

Tell me, what color is the sky in your world?

Priest 2002 > Davis 1998Priest 2003 > Davis 1997

Priest 2004 > Davis 2001 (both played 8 games)

Priest 2001 = Davis 1996

Davis 1995 > Priest 1998

Disagree?

Sure. Are we omitting postseason efforts here?

 

[TommyGilmore]

Priest >> Terrell Davis.

Tell me, what color is the sky in your world?

Priest 2002 > Davis 1998Priest 2003 > Davis 1997

Priest 2004 > Davis 2001 (both played 8 games)

Priest 2001 = Davis 1996

Davis 1995 > Priest 1998

Disagree?

Sure. Are we omitting postseason efforts here?

Davis postseasons >>>> Priest postseasons.But that's not enough to put Davis above Priest overall.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Priest >> Terrell Davis.

Tell me, what color is the sky in your world?

Priest 2002 > Davis 1998Priest 2003 > Davis 1997

Priest 2004 > Davis 2001 (both played 8 games)

Priest 2001 = Davis 1996

Davis 1995 > Priest 1998

Disagree?

Sure. Are we omitting postseason efforts here?

Davis postseasons >>>> Priest postseasons.But that's not enough to put Davis above Priest overall.

I disagree. TD's reputation and status as one of the best postseasons RBs ever, if not THE best, is the trump card. Like I said, it is not Holmes' fault that he didn't get to play in more playoff games, but it is what it is. Priest never rushed for 2,000 yards, he was never MVP of the league, and he never was MVP of the Super Bowl.

 

[SSOG]

Priest >> Terrell Davis.

Tell me, what color is the sky in your world?

Priest 2002 > Davis 1998Priest 2003 > Davis 1997

Priest 2004 > Davis 2001 (both played 8 games)

Priest 2001 = Davis 1996

Davis 1995 > Priest 1998

Disagree?

Yup.Both Holmes and Davis have 3 pro bowls and 3 first team AP All Pros. Holmes has an Offensive PoY award. Davis has TWO offensive PoY awards and a league MVP. Davis made an All-Decade team, while Holmes didn't. And this is completely ignoring Davis's postseason resume (2 SB rings, one SB MVP, 159 yards and 1.5 TDs PER GAME!). Pro-rate Davis's postseason numbers and it'd be like an RB going for 2500 yards from scrimmage and 24 TDs against a schedule composed of nothing but the best teams in the league.

If you compare them to their peers, Davis jumps off the page far more than Holmes. Here is how many top 5, top 3, and #1 overall finishes each RB has posted in each of the RB's key statistical categories:

Rushes-

Davis- 3, 3, 0

Holmes- 1, 0, 0

Rushing yards-

Davis- 3, 3, 1

Holmes- 2, 2, 1

Rushing TDs-

Davis- 3, 3, 2

Holmes- 3, 3, 2

Yards per Attempt-

Davis- 3, 1, 1

Holmes- 2, 0, 0

Total Touches-

Davis- 3, 3, 1

Holmes- 2, 2, 0

Yards from Scrimmage-

Davis- 3, 3, 0

Holmes- 3, 2, 2

Total TDs-

Davis- 3, 3, 1

Holmes- 3, 2, 2

In almost every instance, Davis's seasons were more dominant in relation to his peers than Holmes' were. In fact, this dominance goes far beyond basic stats. More advanced statistical models greatly favor Davis, as well. For instance, Chase Stewart's model says that Terrell Davis had two of the 5 greatest seasons in NFL history (including the #1 overall). Holmes checks in at #8 and #19, which is still incredibly impressive, but it's no Terrell Davis level of dominance. Davis ranks 8th in career dominance according to Chase's methodology, while Holmes checks in at 11th. If you prefer DVOA and DYAR, they tell the same story; Holmes' dominance was equal to Davis' when taken in a vacuum, but a comparison of his peers shows that the rest of the league was right on Holmes' heels, while nobody else could even approach Terrell Davis. In 1997, Davis's 1750 yard season ranked higher than Sanders' 2000 yard league MVP effort. 1998 was particularly ludicrous- Davis' DYAR value was 240% as high as the 2nd place RB's, and his DVOA value was a mind-blowing 265% as high as the next best RB. Basically, Terrell Davis ran for 2,000 yards despite missing large chunks of game time (the Broncos would pull him in blowouts, and there were a lot of blowouts) and playing in what was statistically the toughest rushing season in the last 20+ years.

And again, Davis has the two rings and the SBMVP. Davis will make the Hall long before Priest ever does. If Davis makes it, then Priest will have a chance- albeit a long shot chance- but as long as Davis is on the outside, Holmes will be even more on the outside.

 

[Sidewinder16]

He's a poor man's Terrell Davis; both were the best at their position for about a 2 year stretch but injuries made them retire too early. And Davis never came close to the call from the Hall.

Davis has been one of the 25 semifinalists in each of the last 4 years (I think he's been eligible for all 4). Davis has come very close to "the call from the Hall".

 

[Mr. Retukes]

I wouldn't consider "total touches" to be a "key statistical category" for determining the best RBs. Also, everyone seems to be ignoring Priest's contribution to the passing game, where he CRUSHES anything Davis ever did. Only Marshall Faulk and LaDainian Tomlinson (two sure-fire HOFers) compared to Holmes when it came to yards from scrimmage.

 

[SSOG]

I wouldn't consider "total touches" to be a "key statistical category" for determining the best RBs. Also, everyone seems to be ignoring Priest's contribution to the passing game, where he CRUSHES anything Davis ever did. Only Marshall Faulk and LaDainian Tomlinson (two sure-fire HOFers) compared to Holmes when it came to yards from scrimmage.

I included every statistic someone might conceivably measure an RB by. Whether you like "total carries" and "total touches" as a measure of an RB, there's no question that an RB who averages 5 ypc on 300 carries is more valuable than an RB who averages 5 ypc on 100 carries, all other things being equal. It's up to you how much weight you want to put on those stats, or if you'd rather just ignore those two categories and instead stare at Davis's advantages in pretty much every other category, instead.As for the yards from scrimmage argument... I don't see how it crushes anything Davis did. In Holmes' 3 big years, he finished 1st, 1st, and 5th (average ranking: 2.33). In Davis' 3 big years, he finished 2nd, 2nd, and 2nd (average ranking: 2). Yes, that's right- Davis, on average, finished better compared to his peers in YFS than Holmes did. Holmes' best season was 2287 YFS. Davis's was 2225. Yeah, Holmes' career high was a whopping 62 yards greater than Davis's. I fail to see how anyone could possibly suggest with a straight face that 62 yards is an example of Holmes CRUSHING anything Davis ever did. Maybe you want to argue that Holmes only played 14 games when he put up 2287 YFS, but I'll counter back that Davis only played the equivalent of 14 games in his 2225 yard season, too, since he sat out the second halves of 4 games because Denver was cruising.And, again, there's that whole pesky postseason thing. Davis averaged 159 yards from scrimmage over his postseason career. Holmes' career best per-game YFS season was 2002, when he averaged 163 yards from scrimmage... but Davis's 159 came exclusively against postseason teams, whereas Holmes's 163 were done in the regular season against plenty of non-playoff-caliber teams... like the 307 yards from scrimmage he rolled up against the 7-9 Seattle Seahawks.Plus, for all the talk about Davis being a system back, Holmes played with an 11-time Pro Bowl OT and a 12-time Pro Bowl OG in their primes, as well several other pro-bowl linemen all at their peaks, and arguably the best blocking fullback of the last 20 years.And then, too, there's the fact that Davis has the two rings (which HoF voters definitely value highly), and all the extra hardware (one more OPoY, one more league MVP, one more SBMVP, one more All Decade Team).

 

[Mr. Retukes]

As for the yards from scrimmage argument... I don't see how it crushes anything Davis did. In Holmes' 3 big years, he finished 1st, 1st, and 5th (average ranking: 2.33). In Davis' 3 big years, he finished 2nd, 2nd, and 2nd (average ranking: 2).

Way to cherry pick your stats. Why not take each player's TWO BIGGEST years? (Holmes' average ranking: 1st; Davis' average: 2nd.) Or take each player's FOUR BIGGEST or FIVE BIGGEST years? Better yet, why not measure the stats by yards per game, where Holmes truly crushes Davis.

Holmes' best season was 2287 YFS. Davis's was 2225. Yeah, Holmes' career high was a whopping 62 yards greater than Davis's.

In 2 fewer games. Again, way to cherry pick. Holmes sat out his share of 4th quarters too, you know -- including Week 17 of his record-setting season, unlike a certain stat-padder who was gunning for the record books in a meaningless game, shamelessly demanding the ball again and again (31 times!).But I'm glad you brought up Holmes' 2287 YFS. It works out to 163 yards per game -- an NFL record. And it's MORE THAN 20 yards per game higher than Davis' best season. So yeah, I'd say that's a "whopping" difference when one player carries his team to 24 more yards every single week.

Oh, and none of Holmes' "peers" came close to that mark, either. Holmes' closest competitors were 25+ yards per game short of his record setting mark. But in Davis' 2225-yard season, guess what? HE DIDN'T EVEN LEAD THE LEAGUE IN YFS!! In fact, there were FOUR players who were within 8 yards of Davis' 139 yards per game.

And by the way, that 139 yards per game doesn't even rank in the top-25 in NFL history. It's probably the least impressive 2000-yard season in NFL history.

 

[Mr. Retukes]

This part is worth saying again:

In 2002, Priest Holmes set an NFL record with 163 yards from scrimmage per game. None of his peers were within 25 yards of that mark.

In 1998, Terrell Davis averaged a career-high 139 yards from scrimmage per game. It wasn't even good enough to lead the league. Four of his peers were within 8 yards of that mark.

 

[5-ish Finkle]

This part is worth saying again:In 2002, Priest Holmes set an NFL record with 163 yards from scrimmage per game. None of his peers were within 25 yards of that mark.In 1998, Terrell Davis averaged a career-high 139 yards from scrimmage per game. It wasn't even good enough to lead the league. Four of his peers were within 8 yards of that mark.

I tend to agree with you here. That's a bigger deal than people seem to think.Also, if people are going to downplay Holmes' productivity for playing behind a great OL, then they need to do the same thing for Davis playing behind "Leg Whippers Anonymous."I don't think either guy is making the HOF, but to say that Davis is indubitably >>>> than Holmes just because his team got him to the postseason more often is kind of silly.

 

[houstonlibrarian]

If you are going to downgrade Priest because Larry Johnson came along behind him and did equally well, then that goes double for Davis. The Broncos had five or six generic backs come along and perform similarly to what Davis did.

I'm talking Mike Alexander, Olandis Gary, all kindsa average backs came along and did just about as well as Davis.

 

[David Yudkin]

If you are going to downgrade Priest because Larry Johnson came along behind him and did equally well, then that goes double for Davis. The Broncos had five or six generic backs come along and perform similarly to what Davis did.I'm talking Mike Alexander, Olandis Gary, all kindsa average backs came along and did just about as well as Davis.

Which is why many people think that neither Holmes and Davis are great HOF candidates. Both had 3 noteworthy years and not a ton more (although both had a decent decent added to the mix and several years missing alot of time). Davis certainaly has more hardware on his mantle, which for many puts him ahead of Holmes on the HOF RB pecking order.

 

[Portis 26]

But there have been players with relatively short and highly successful careers inducted into the HoF before. It's not like you must play 15 years to get in.

 

[David Yudkin]

But there have been players with relatively short and highly successful careers inducted into the HoF before. It's not like you must play 15 years to get in.

This is both true and untrue. Yes, guys with short careers have gotten in . . . when career longevity was much shorter than in today's game. Back in the day (40-50 years ago), if a player suffered a severe injury he was done. Not so anymore. Players careers are getting longer and longer.So when guys like Holmes and Davis come along when there are players like Smith, Martin, etc. playing for years and years at the same position and putting up much better career numbers, it will make it harder for players like Holmes, Davis, Sterling Sharpe, etc. to get in with only a handful of high production years.Put another way, there are plently of folks around here that feel strongly that Edgerrin James and Shaun Alexander shouldn't make the HOF . . . and they had longer periods of production than either Holmes or Davis.The bottom line is that there is no shortage of RBs to induct from the recent era of football. There are only so many backs from an era that are going to make it, and I suspect that the list will be too long to get Davis or Holmes in on a regular vote (who knows what the veteran's committee might do down the road).

 

[Ghost Rider]

If you are going to downgrade Priest because Larry Johnson came along behind him and did equally well, then that goes double for Davis. The Broncos had five or six generic backs come along and perform similarly to what Davis did.I'm talking Mike Alexander, Olandis Gary, all kindsa average backs came along and did just about as well as Davis.

None of them came close to doing what Davis did. Yes, they were productive, but Davis was dominant. Big, big difference.

 

[David Yudkin]

If you are going to downgrade Priest because Larry Johnson came along behind him and did equally well, then that goes double for Davis. The Broncos had five or six generic backs come along and perform similarly to what Davis did.I'm talking Mike Alexander, Olandis Gary, all kindsa average backs came along and did just about as well as Davis.

None of them came close to doing what Davis did. Yes, they were productive, but Davis was dominant. Big, big difference.

Davis was dominent for THREE YEARS and very good in another. I am not disputing that he was an elite producer when he played. But voters care about how long someone plays. I would rather Davis made it in than someone like Jerome Bettis, but for better or for worse voters like bigger career numbers. I'm not saying Davis isn't deserving, only that he faces a very uphill battle.Davis until now hasn't made it in (and may not have even been a finalist, I can't remember). It's only going to get harder as the years go by with the glut of quality RBs becoing eligible for induction and a hug number of players at other positions balso becoming eligible.Like with Holmes, I think Davis will suffer from his replacements also doing very well. Likely not as well as he performed, but still very good none the less. Olandis Gary, Mike Anderson, Clinton Portis, and Reuben Droughns all fared well . . . and most people would not say Gary, Anderson, or Droughns were anything special.

 

[David Yudkin]

If you are going to downgrade Priest because Larry Johnson came along behind him and did equally well, then that goes double for Davis. The Broncos had five or six generic backs come along and perform similarly to what Davis did.I'm talking Mike Alexander, Olandis Gary, all kindsa average backs came along and did just about as well as Davis.

None of them came close to doing what Davis did. Yes, they were productive, but Davis was dominant. Big, big difference.

I since ran some numbers on Davis and the Broncos.Davis played from 1995 to 2001 . . . a total of 7 years. In that time, the Broncos RB corps averaged 2,436 yards from scrimmage and 16.6 total TD per season. That's a 7 year sample size, so it's a decent amount of football.So . . . how did the Broncos do BEFORE Davis suited up? Well, in the SEVEN seasons (matching Davis' career total) prior to TD becoming a Bronco, the Broncos RB corps averaged 2,307 yards from scrimmage and 15.7 total TD per year. So WITH Davis on the team, Denver saw an increase of 129 yards from scrimmage and 0.9 TD per year.And how did Denver do once Davis had left? In the same SEVEN years post-Davis, the stable of Broncos RBs averaged 2,463 yards from scrimmage and 18.1 TDs per season. Or 27 yards and 1.5 TDs per season MORE THAN they did when they had Davis.Clearly Terrell Davis was a great player and a beast in the post season. But his impact on the Broncos total RB numbers was nowhere near as great as people seem to think it is. This is not a knock on Davis, but he just got the ball much more than some other backs did, but overall production wise he led his RB corps to similar numbers to what the Broncos saw before he was there and after he left.

 

[Ghost Rider]

All the demonstrates was that it took two, and sometimes, three, RBs to do what Davis pretty much did all by himself.

 

[David Yudkin]

All the demonstrates was that it took two, and sometimes, three, RBs to do what Davis pretty much did all by himself.

And they did it just as well as Davis did. The overall point was that they were equally productive with or without him . . . which hurts his HOF chances. No one got as many chances as Davis did, so if more opportunies = better production I guss that's a selling point.If you were an NFL owner and had a choice of paying one guy $10 million or 2 guys $2.5 each and got the same total production, which would you choose?

 

[David Yudkin]

I also forget to mention that in the time Davis played, he accounted for 8,887 of the team's 17,055 RB yards from scrimmage (52%) and 65 of the team's 116 RB touchdowns (56%). He obviously was the main cog for about half his career, but there were other guys carrying some of the load (or even the majority) for half his career as well.

 

[TommyGilmore]

I since ran some numbers on Davis and the Broncos.Davis played from 1995 to 2001 . . . a total of 7 years. In that time, the Broncos RB corps averaged 2,436 yards from scrimmage and 16.6 total TD per season. That's a 7 year sample size, so it's a decent amount of football.So . . . how did the Broncos do BEFORE Davis suited up? Well, in the SEVEN seasons (matching Davis' career total) prior to TD becoming a Bronco, the Broncos RB corps averaged 2,307 yards from scrimmage and 15.7 total TD per year. So WITH Davis on the team, Denver saw an increase of 129 yards from scrimmage and 0.9 TD per year.And how did Denver do once Davis had left? In the same SEVEN years post-Davis, the stable of Broncos RBs averaged 2,463 yards from scrimmage and 18.1 TDs per season. Or 27 yards and 1.5 TDs per season MORE THAN they did when they had Davis.Clearly Terrell Davis was a great player and a beast in the post season. But his impact on the Broncos total RB numbers was nowhere near as great as people seem to think it is. This is not a knock on Davis, but he just got the ball much more than some other backs did, but overall production wise he led his RB corps to similar numbers to what the Broncos saw before he was there and after he left.

Have you ever run a similar analysis on Priest Holmes?

 

[David Yudkin]

I since ran some numbers on Davis and the Broncos.Davis played from 1995 to 2001 . . . a total of 7 years. In that time, the Broncos RB corps averaged 2,436 yards from scrimmage and 16.6 total TD per season. That's a 7 year sample size, so it's a decent amount of football.So . . . how did the Broncos do BEFORE Davis suited up? Well, in the SEVEN seasons (matching Davis' career total) prior to TD becoming a Bronco, the Broncos RB corps averaged 2,307 yards from scrimmage and 15.7 total TD per year. So WITH Davis on the team, Denver saw an increase of 129 yards from scrimmage and 0.9 TD per year.And how did Denver do once Davis had left? In the same SEVEN years post-Davis, the stable of Broncos RBs averaged 2,463 yards from scrimmage and 18.1 TDs per season. Or 27 yards and 1.5 TDs per season MORE THAN they did when they had Davis.Clearly Terrell Davis was a great player and a beast in the post season. But his impact on the Broncos total RB numbers was nowhere near as great as people seem to think it is. This is not a knock on Davis, but he just got the ball much more than some other backs did, but overall production wise he led his RB corps to similar numbers to what the Broncos saw before he was there and after he left.

Have you ever run a similar analysis on Priest Holmes?

I was planning to just didn't have time today. I will when I get a chance.

 

[SSOG]

Way to cherry pick your stats. Why not take each player's TWO BIGGEST years? (Holmes' average ranking: 1st; Davis' average: 2nd.) Or take each player's FOUR BIGGEST or FIVE BIGGEST years? Better yet, why not measure the stats by yards per game, where Holmes truly crushes Davis.

I chose 3 years because both guys are generally considered HoFers on the strength of 3 monster seasons. Those three big seasons, as far as the hall is concerned, are the only parts of Davis' or Holmes' careers that mattered. Comparing their 3-year peaks is, in my mind, the exact same thing as comparing their HoF candidacies. Besides, both players only registered 3 finishes in the top 10 in YFS, so that seemed a pretty obvious comparison.By all means, though, if you want to compare the players' 4 biggest seasons, I'd be happy to. That comparison favors Davis even more- Davis' 4th best season was 1484 YFS and 8 scores. Holmes' was 1268/7. So much for any accusations that I was gerrymandering the cutoffs.

In 2 fewer games. Again, way to cherry pick. Holmes sat out his share of 4th quarters too, you know -- including Week 17 of his record-setting season, unlike a certain stat-padder who was gunning for the record books in a meaningless game, shamelessly demanding the ball again and again (31 times!).

But I'm glad you brought up Holmes' 2287 YFS. It works out to 163 yards per game -- an NFL record. And it's MORE THAN 20 yards per game higher than Davis' best season. So yeah, I'd say that's a "whopping" difference when one player carries his team to 24 more yards every single week.

Oh, and none of Holmes' "peers" came close to that mark, either. Holmes' closest competitors were 25+ yards per game short of his record setting mark. But in Davis' 2225-yard season, guess what? HE DIDN'T EVEN LEAD THE LEAGUE IN YFS!! In fact, there were FOUR players who were within 8 yards of Davis' 139 yards per game.

And by the way, that 139 yards per game doesn't even rank in the top-25 in NFL history. It's probably the least impressive 2000-yard season in NFL history.

TommyGilmore compared Holmes 2002 to Davis 1998. I was pointing out that both RBs missed significant chunks of action in the season in question. And are do you really, REALLY want to criticize Terrell Davis because he was getting carries in the 4th quarter of week 17 in 1998? Are you KIDDING me? Denver had a seven point lead! Running Terrell Davis to grind out the clock with a 7 point lead isn't "stat padding", it's Denver's core offensive philosophy! Holy ludicrous hell, do you even hear yourself?Yes, Holmes 163 ypg is a lot better than Davis' best season... but I already told you that Davis averaged 159 ypg in the postseason. 159 ypg in 8 postseason games (against 8 postseason teams) is way, way more impressive than 163 ypg. Priest Holmes only played 3 postseason teams in 14 games in 2002. Terrell Davis's best season was the POSTseason.

And as for the least impressive 2000 yard season thing... again, Chase's methodology rates it as the single most dominant season any RB has ever had in the history of the NFL (or maybe just the modern history- I don't know if he went back before 1960). DVOA rated it as head and shoulders the most dominant season of the DVOA era (iirc, 1994-2009). Davis was 311 DYAR better than the #2 RB in 1998. In 2001, Holmes was 83 DYAR better than the #2 RB. In 2002, Holmes was 108 DYAR better than the #2 RB. In '03, he was 75 DYAR better than the #2 RB. In Holmes' 3 best seasons COMBINED, his advantage over the #2 RB (266 DYAR) couldn't match the edge that Terrell Davis had over the #2 RB in 1998 alone (311 DYAR). In '97, Davis also had an 88 DYAR advantage over Barry Sanders (who, you might recall, only ran for 2000 yards at 6.1 ypc that year). Again, Terrell Davis accomplished his career season in the toughest running climate in recent memory.

Really, though, I don't get the point of this argument. Are you seriously suggesting that Priest Holmes would ever get into the HoF over Terrell Davis? That's why Davis was brought up- people were saying that there's no way Holmes gets in unless Davis gets in, first. You can play your "YFS/g" game all you want, but the voters will side with the guy with the league MVP, 2 OPoYs, SBMVP, 2 rings, and greatest postseason performance in NFL history every single time. No doubt, no question. If Holmes makes it to the HoF before Terrell Davis, I will eat my shoes. Both of them. In one sitting.

 

[SSOG]

I since ran some numbers on Davis and the Broncos.Davis played from 1995 to 2001 . . . a total of 7 years. In that time, the Broncos RB corps averaged 2,436 yards from scrimmage and 16.6 total TD per season. That's a 7 year sample size, so it's a decent amount of football.So . . . how did the Broncos do BEFORE Davis suited up? Well, in the SEVEN seasons (matching Davis' career total) prior to TD becoming a Bronco, the Broncos RB corps averaged 2,307 yards from scrimmage and 15.7 total TD per year. So WITH Davis on the team, Denver saw an increase of 129 yards from scrimmage and 0.9 TD per year.And how did Denver do once Davis had left? In the same SEVEN years post-Davis, the stable of Broncos RBs averaged 2,463 yards from scrimmage and 18.1 TDs per season. Or 27 yards and 1.5 TDs per season MORE THAN they did when they had Davis.Clearly Terrell Davis was a great player and a beast in the post season. But his impact on the Broncos total RB numbers was nowhere near as great as people seem to think it is. This is not a knock on Davis, but he just got the ball much more than some other backs did, but overall production wise he led his RB corps to similar numbers to what the Broncos saw before he was there and after he left.

Why would you use Davis's 3 post-injury seasons in the equation? In his 4 healthy seasons, Denver's RBs averaged 2624 yards from scrimmage and 19.75 TDs a year.

 

[Matt Waldman]

If you follow Casey Joyner, his argument is that All-Pro status is something people should (if they don't) determine as a big indicator of HOF potential. Three All-Pros for TD and Holmes are enough that if Floyd Little gets a vote from the veterans committee, I won't at all be surprised if both Davis and Holmes are given a yellow jacket in the same fashion due to similar creative arguments as Jeff Legwold made for Little. In fact, Davis and Holmes deserve it more than Little.

 

[JJP]

I don't think anyone can deny that for the 3 year period of 2001-2003, the Priest was the best RB in football. No question. Averaged 1530 rush yards, 4.8 ypc, 19 rush TDs, 69 catches for another 659 yards. Shaun Alexander was very good, but not in The Priest's class. Holmes topped 1000 yards as a rookie......one has to wonder what his numbers would've been if the Ravens didn't draft Jamal Lewis in 1999.

How long does one have to be the dominant player at a position to be HoF worthy? I agree 3 seasons for Holmes isn't enough, but for a NFL RB, how about 6? 5 even?

 

[gonzobill5]

I found it interesting that most people seem to think that Priest is a long shot and Davis needs a creative argument to get in. Most would also put Shaun Alexander in that group of players that are not be quite good enough for the hall. Meanwhile, there was a post today about whether or not LT was a hall of famer and everyone agreed he was a first ballot shoo in. Now I'm not saying I'm in disagreement with any of these opinions, but this is what was striking to me about it all:

In LT's first three years in the league he was outperformed by Holmes (though 2003 is debatable). In his next two years he was outperformed by Alexander. In 2006, he was better than LJ, but still wasn't the clear cut best RB in football. And its been all downhill from there. Looking back, of course he's been amazing.

I think this just gives you some pause about how fleeting greatness at the RB position really is, and makes you think about how longevity should be regarded.

 

[gonzobill5]

This part is worth saying again:In 2002, Priest Holmes set an NFL record with 163 yards from scrimmage per game. None of his peers were within 25 yards of that mark.In 1998, Terrell Davis averaged a career-high 139 yards from scrimmage per game. It wasn't even good enough to lead the league. Four of his peers were within 8 yards of that mark.

Something interesting I thought I'd add to this:In 2002, the top 20 RBs averaged 54 catches. In 1998, the top 20 RBs averaged 35 catches. Faulk and the Rams changed the way RBs were used pretty quickly.

 

[JohnnyU]

Not even close.

 

[JJP]

I found it interesting that most people seem to think that Priest is a long shot and Davis needs a creative argument to get in. Most would also put Shaun Alexander in that group of players that are not be quite good enough for the hall. Meanwhile, there was a post today about whether or not LT was a hall of famer and everyone agreed he was a first ballot shoo in. Now I'm not saying I'm in disagreement with any of these opinions, but this is what was striking to me about it all:In LT's first three years in the league he was outperformed by Holmes (though 2003 is debatable). In his next two years he was outperformed by Alexander. In 2006, he was better than LJ, but still wasn't the clear cut best RB in football. And its been all downhill from there. Looking back, of course he's been amazing. I think this just gives you some pause about how fleeting greatness at the RB position really is, and makes you think about how longevity should be regarded.

LT was the RB of the decade. Yes, he was 2nd or 3rd best in a number of those years. But no RB was producive for as long as he was during the decade. The poll results of that thread say it all.

 

[David Yudkin]

I since ran some numbers on Davis and the Broncos.Davis played from 1995 to 2001 . . . a total of 7 years. In that time, the Broncos RB corps averaged 2,436 yards from scrimmage and 16.6 total TD per season. That's a 7 year sample size, so it's a decent amount of football.So . . . how did the Broncos do BEFORE Davis suited up? Well, in the SEVEN seasons (matching Davis' career total) prior to TD becoming a Bronco, the Broncos RB corps averaged 2,307 yards from scrimmage and 15.7 total TD per year. So WITH Davis on the team, Denver saw an increase of 129 yards from scrimmage and 0.9 TD per year.And how did Denver do once Davis had left? In the same SEVEN years post-Davis, the stable of Broncos RBs averaged 2,463 yards from scrimmage and 18.1 TDs per season. Or 27 yards and 1.5 TDs per season MORE THAN they did when they had Davis.Clearly Terrell Davis was a great player and a beast in the post season. But his impact on the Broncos total RB numbers was nowhere near as great as people seem to think it is. This is not a knock on Davis, but he just got the ball much more than some other backs did, but overall production wise he led his RB corps to similar numbers to what the Broncos saw before he was there and after he left.

Why would you use Davis's 3 post-injury seasons in the equation? In his 4 healthy seasons, Denver's RBs averaged 2624 yards from scrimmage and 19.75 TDs a year.

Use whatever years you want over a 20 year period. Whether Davis played or didn't play, the numbers were not dramatically different. I can post the yearly numbers a different day (they are on my other machine not this one).