Pro Football Hall of Fame: The 2015 Class (1 Viewer)

[bellmar]

Don Coryell , besides the Chargers high flying offense, the Redskins of Joe Gibbs and the Rams Mike Martz offense was a exact copy of his offense. Zampese brought it to the Cowboys where Turner became the next disciple. Oh, and just because somebody has to say it, Kenny "The Snake" Stabler !!! I know it ain't gonna happen,,,,,,,,

 

[Raider Nation]

The Pro Football Hall of Fame has selected 15 finalists for its 2015 class.

The late Junior Seau and two former Rams teammates, tackle Orlando Pace and quarterback Kurt Warner, highlight the list, which also includes running back Jerome Bettis, wide receiver Tim Brown, running back Terrell Davis, linebacker Kevin Greene, linebacker Charles Haley, receiver Marvin Harrison, safety John Lynch, kicker Morten Andersen, guard Will Shields, and coaches Don Coryell, Tony Dungy and Jimmy Johnson.

 

[Faust]

Kurt Warner among Class of 2015 Hall of Fame finalists:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000455667/article/kurt-warner-among-firstyear-eligible-hall-finalists?campaign=twitter_atn

 

[Faust]

Hall of Fame finalists: Junior Seau a lock; Charles Haley worthy

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000455681/article/hall-of-fame-finalists-junior-seau-a-lock-charles-haley-worthy

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

The Pro Football Hall of Fame has selected 15 finalists for its 2015 class.

The late Junior Seau and two former Rams teammates, tackle Orlando Pace and quarterback Kurt Warner, highlight the list, which also includes running back Jerome Bettis, wide receiver Tim Brown, running back Terrell Davis, linebacker Kevin Greene, linebacker Charles Haley, receiver Marvin Harrison, safety John Lynch, kicker Morten Andersen, guard Will Shields, and coaches Don Coryell, Tony Dungy and Jimmy Johnson.

tough group to pick 5 from, but I'd probably go with these:

1. Seau

2. Pace

3. Haley

4. Harrison

5. T.Davis

 

[sn0mm1s]

Seau

Pace

Shield

Brown

Harrison

Are my votes - the only lock of the entire class is Seau.

 

[Ghost Rider]

From the AP article:

Davis gave Denver an efficient running game to go with John Elway's passing, and they took the Broncos to championships in 1997 and 1998. This is his ninth year on the ballot.


Efficient? EFFICIENT?

I guess if by efficient, you mean dominant or unstoppable, then yeah, that works.

 

[MattFancy]

Not sure how I feel about Warner for the HoF.

Was a late bloomer in that he didn't start until he was 28. He had 5 very good seasons, but also had 5 seasons where he did nothing special and then 1 decent season. Granted, those 5 seasons were impressive, 2 MVPs, a Super Bowl MVP, Super Bowl ring and another Super Bowl apperance. It's just what do you do about 2002-2006 when he was essentially a back up?

 

[dcgangstas]

From my point of view, I see the following getting in:

Junior Seau -- mortal lock

Orlando Pace

Will Shields

Jerome Bettis

Charles Haley -- long overdue

Marvin Harrison

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Kurt Warner's life could be a Disney Movie. He's getting into the Hall of Fame for sure whether people think he "deserves" it or not.

 

[MattFancy]

Kurt Warner's life could be a Disney Movie. He's getting into the Hall of Fame for sure whether people think he "deserves" it or not.

His story is great, don't get me wrong. I admire the guy and he seems like a genuinely good person. I just don't think his body of work screams HoFer. When you have a short career like he did, only 12 years, you need to really have a great resume. He basically has as many years of great as he does of poor. He was basically hurt/a backup for 5 seasons and had 5 great seasons. His great seasons were really great, but what do you do about that stretch from 02-06 where he was doing nothing?

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

wonder with that recent story from the Seau family, if they would even attend the ceremony for his induction?? They seem pretty upset at the NFL.

Kurt Warner is a lock, he took two doormat franchises to the superbowl and got a win for the Rams.

 

[Tau837]

From my point of view, I see the following getting in:

Junior Seau -- mortal lock

Orlando Pace

Will Shields

Jerome Bettis

Charles Haley -- long overdue

Marvin Harrison

That's too many. Max of 5 non-senior, non-contributor candidates.

 

[B Maverick]

Kurt Warner's life could be a Disney Movie. He's getting into the Hall of Fame for sure whether people think he "deserves" it or not.

His story is great, don't get me wrong. I admire the guy and he seems like a genuinely good person. I just don't think his body of work screams HoFer. When you have a short career like he did, only 12 years, you need to really have a great resume. He basically has as many years of great as he does of poor. He was basically hurt/a backup for 5 seasons and had 5 great seasons. His great seasons were really great, but what do you do about that stretch from 02-06 where he was doing nothing?

Same thing I see in TD. 1 good season and 3 Great seasons in 8 years in the league. 7600 yards and 60 tds rushing, 1280 and 5 receiving. For 3 years he was unstoppable and was the reason Elway got his rings, but is that really enough for the HoF?

Tim Brown should get in before any WR imo although I wouldnt keep Harrison out either.

 

[MattFancy]

Kurt Warner's life could be a Disney Movie. He's getting into the Hall of Fame for sure whether people think he "deserves" it or not.

His story is great, don't get me wrong. I admire the guy and he seems like a genuinely good person. I just don't think his body of work screams HoFer. When you have a short career like he did, only 12 years, you need to really have a great resume. He basically has as many years of great as he does of poor. He was basically hurt/a backup for 5 seasons and had 5 great seasons. His great seasons were really great, but what do you do about that stretch from 02-06 where he was doing nothing?

Same thing I see in TD. 1 good season and 3 Great seasons in 8 years in the league. 7600 yards and 60 tds rushing, 1280 and 5 receiving. For 3 years he was unstoppable and was the reason Elway got his rings, but is that really enough for the HoF?

Tim Brown should get in before any WR imo although I wouldnt keep Harrison out either.

Agreed on both points.

Davis was a monster for that 3 year stretch of 96-98, but outside of that, nothing HoF worth IMO. If you're gonna put Davis in, does that mean Priest Holmes gets in? Holmes arguable had a better 3 year stretch, just didn't win any SBs during that time.

How Tim Brown isn't in the HoF yet doesn't make sense. The voters seem to really not like to put WRs in for some reason.

 

[Pastor]

If the Rams had beaten New England would that change your thoughts on Warner? I am not sure he is a Hall of Famer but that second ring would probably do it. I ask because of the cheating issue and how it not only affected the game but possibly Warners hall credentials.

 

[Tau837]

Kurt Warner's life could be a Disney Movie. He's getting into the Hall of Fame for sure whether people think he "deserves" it or not.

His story is great, don't get me wrong. I admire the guy and he seems like a genuinely good person. I just don't think his body of work screams HoFer. When you have a short career like he did, only 12 years, you need to really have a great resume. He basically has as many years of great as he does of poor. He was basically hurt/a backup for 5 seasons and had 5 great seasons. His great seasons were really great, but what do you do about that stretch from 02-06 where he was doing nothing?

QB for one of the greatest offenses of all time

One of the most efficient QBs of all time as shown by his career rate statistics (passer rating, completion percentage, YPA, etc.)

2 time MVP -- I believe Plunkett is the only eligible 2 time MVP not in the HOF

Also won Super Bowl MVP and NFL Man of the Year

Took two previously lousy teams to the Super Bowl a total of 3 times, winning one

Beloved by the media and has "Disney movie" factor (don't underestimate this)

That is compelling.

As for 2002-2006:

2002 - Broke his finger

2003 - Broke his hand

2004 - Played reasonably well but NYG wanted rookie Eli to be their guy

2005 - Played reasonably well but missed time due to groin injury

2006 - Played reasonably well but ARZ wanted rookie Leinart to be their guy

He had some injuries and he was bypassed in favor of two highly drafted rookies. And in retrospect, ARZ clearly made the wrong decision in favoring Leinart. I don't think that stuff is bad for Warner's HOF narrative at all. In fact, it shows that he came back from adversity.

 

[MattFancy]

Kurt Warner's life could be a Disney Movie. He's getting into the Hall of Fame for sure whether people think he "deserves" it or not.

His story is great, don't get me wrong. I admire the guy and he seems like a genuinely good person. I just don't think his body of work screams HoFer. When you have a short career like he did, only 12 years, you need to really have a great resume. He basically has as many years of great as he does of poor. He was basically hurt/a backup for 5 seasons and had 5 great seasons. His great seasons were really great, but what do you do about that stretch from 02-06 where he was doing nothing?

QB for one of the greatest offenses of all time

One of the most efficient QBs of all time as shown by his career rate statistics (passer rating, completion percentage, YPA, etc.)

2 time MVP -- I believe Plunkett is the only eligible 2 time MVP not in the HOF

Also won Super Bowl MVP and NFL Man of the Year

Took two previously lousy teams to the Super Bowl a total of 3 times, winning one

Beloved by the media and has "Disney movie" factor (don't underestimate this)

That is compelling.

As for 2002-2006:

2002 - Broke his finger

2003 - Broke his hand

2004 - Played reasonably well but NYG wanted rookie Eli to be their guy

2005 - Played reasonably well but missed time due to groin injury

2006 - Played reasonably well but ARZ wanted rookie Leinart to be their guy

He had some injuries and he was bypassed in favor of two highly drafted rookies. And in retrospect, ARZ clearly made the wrong decision in favoring Leinart. I don't think that stuff is bad for Warner's HOF narrative at all. In fact, it shows that he came back from adversity.

Again, very compelling story and it's great that he bested the odds and did what he did. I just feel like for someone like him that had a short career, he needed to do a smidge more. Pastor asked about if he had 2 rings would they be different, maybe. Winning 2 SBs over a 12 year career would have been damn impressive. He probably gets in because of how beloved he is by the media and I'm not going to be butthurt if he does get in. I just couldn't see myself trying to justify him getting in when only half his career was HoF worthy.

 

[moleculo]

I promise not to tear him down , I would like somebody to justify why Kurt warner is worthy of being a first ballot hall of famer cause I just don't see it.

- He was the QB of one of the greatest offenses of all time. You can't tell the story of the NFL in that time period without talking about him.

- He won 2 MVP awards, 1 Super Bowl MVP, and 1 MOY award (don't underrate this). How many eligible QBs that have 2 MVPs are not in the HOF?

- He led his teams -- and 2 franchises -- to 3 Super Bowls and won one. He has a 9-4 postseason record.

- He currently ranks in the top 8 all time in these metrics: passer rating (8), completion percentage (4), passing yards/game (4), YPA (6).

- He owns or shares several records.

YMMV on how compelling you find that case, but that is essentially it.

The counter argument to this is the fact that he did this in great offenses with great players around him.Marc Bulger put up big numbers in that offense. Then, he had that awful stretch from 2002-2006. In those 5 seasons he was 8-23 as a starter and threw 27 td, 30 ints. What hall of fame qb has 5 years in the middle of their career like that? He basically played for 11 seasons. Take away those 3 super bowl years and what are you left with? 8 seasons- 31-37 win loss record, 1-2 playoff record, 101 td, 79 int.

So, what you have with Warner is a guy who when healthy with great players around him could put amazing numbers and lead the team to the super bowl. When he wasn't in great situations like 8 out of 11 seasons, he wasn't anything special. Hall of fame? I don't know. If he is then Terrell Davis should get some love.

I agree with the bolded, and have made the comparison several times. I think Kurt Warner and Terrell Davis both have extremely similar resumes. Massive short-term dominance, huge postseason success, tons of records (both regular-season and postseason). Both were replaced by mediocre players who put up superficially solid statistics, but never came anywhere near the same stratosphere of Warner/Davis. Both had strong supporting casts. Both had very short peaks for their position. Warner had success with a second franchise, which is a point in his favor compared to Davis, but I think that success gets overstated- he really only had one truly great year with Arizona, plus two more good ones. At the same time, Davis' fall-off was clearly due to injury, whereas Kurt Warner three times got benched for a younger QB while he was healthy (Marc Bulger, Eli Manning, and Matt Leinart), which is a point against him. Warner's peak was slightly longer, but his position typically has much more longevity than Davis' position, so relatively speaking it's about a wash.

Like I said, very comparable resumes. I happen to believe that both resumes are absolutely and unequivocally HoF worthy. Both could make a credible argument for the most dominant 3-season stretch at their position in modern NFL history, both were multiple-All Pros, both won three major awards (Davis = 1 MVP, 2 OPoY; Warner = 2 MVP, 1 MotY), both had tremendous postseason success (Davis was the most dominant postseason RB in NFL history, Kurt Warner owns each of the top 3 passing yardage totals in SB history, both won a SBMVP award), both have rings (Davis has two, Warner only has one but he made two others, including being on the very short list of QBs to reach the SB with multiple franchises). There are few guys not currently in the Hall who have anywhere near that much "black ink".

One way to look at it is that each Hall of Famer has a positive case for and a negative case against. In terms of the sheer size of the "negative case against", Terrell Davis and Kurt Warner both probably rank in the top 5 of all players to receive serious HoF consideration in the last 30 years. So if your idea of a Hall of Famer is the guy with the fewest holes in his resume, you probably don't like Kurt Warner and Terrell Davis.

On the other hand, the size of the "positive case for" both Warner and Davis is among the biggest of any player to come up for consideration in the last 30 years, too. They were dominant legends who rewrote the record books and secured glory and championships during their brief playing careers. If your idea of a Hall of Famer is the guy with the most impressive resume, holes be damned, then you no doubt love Kurt Warner and Terrell Davis.

A guy like Curtis Martin makes the Hall of Fame simply because the negative case against him is pretty negligible. I mean, there aren't really any nits to pick in his resume. He had success for two different teams, he never really struggled, never really had a bad year. He didn't win a title, but he's an RB, so that's not really his fault, especially since his postseason numbers are pretty solid. On the other hand, what's the positive case for Curtis Martin? Where's the black ink? He won one rushing title. He earned one first-team AP All Pro. He was rookie of the year. Mostly, Martin is famous for meeting a basic minimum level of competency (1,000 rushing yards) for an obscenely long stretch of time (10 straight years). He wasn't ever one of the top 3 RBs in the NFL. He was pretty solidly behind Sanders, Smith, and Davis early in his career, and then by the time those guys were winding down you had Marshall Faulk, Priest Holmes, and Tiki Barber blowing up and Edgerrin James, LaDainian Tomlinson, Clinton Portis, and Ricky Williams entering the league. In terms of player quality, Curtis Martin wasn't really any better than, say, Ricky Watters... he just managed to do it for longer. And that's good, that's a Hall of Fame worthy resume. Curtis Martin, in my mind, clearly belongs.

I just think there should be more to the Hall of Fame than a bunch of boring guys that it's hard to argue too hard against. I think there should be a place for guys like Terrell Davis and Kurt Warner, guys who had their share of flaws but who for nearly half a decade were among the most exciting, most electric, most awe-inspiring, most destructive forces of nature the league had ever seen.

qft

 

[dcgangstas]

From my point of view, I see the following getting in:

Junior Seau -- mortal lock

Orlando Pace

Will Shields

Jerome Bettis

Charles Haley -- long overdue

Marvin Harrison

That's too many. Max of 5 non-senior, non-contributor candidates.

You're right, JWB.

Guess they'll just screw Haley over again.

 

[Fariq]

Kurt Warner's life could be a Disney Movie. He's getting into the Hall of Fame for sure whether people think he "deserves" it or not.

His story is great, don't get me wrong. I admire the guy and he seems like a genuinely good person. I just don't think his body of work screams HoFer. When you have a short career like he did, only 12 years, you need to really have a great resume. He basically has as many years of great as he does of poor. He was basically hurt/a backup for 5 seasons and had 5 great seasons. His great seasons were really great, but what do you do about that stretch from 02-06 where he was doing nothing?

QB for one of the greatest offenses of all time

One of the most efficient QBs of all time as shown by his career rate statistics (passer rating, completion percentage, YPA, etc.)

2 time MVP -- I believe Plunkett is the only eligible 2 time MVP not in the HOF

Also won Super Bowl MVP and NFL Man of the Year

Took two previously lousy teams to the Super Bowl a total of 3 times, winning one

Beloved by the media and has "Disney movie" factor (don't underestimate this)

That is compelling.

As for 2002-2006:

2002 - Broke his finger

2003 - Broke his hand

2004 - Played reasonably well but NYG wanted rookie Eli to be their guy

2005 - Played reasonably well but missed time due to groin injury

2006 - Played reasonably well but ARZ wanted rookie Leinart to be their guy

He had some injuries and he was bypassed in favor of two highly drafted rookies. And in retrospect, ARZ clearly made the wrong decision in favoring Leinart. I don't think that stuff is bad for Warner's HOF narrative at all. In fact, it shows that he came back from adversity.

Again, very compelling story and it's great that he bested the odds and did what he did. I just feel like for someone like him that had a short career, he needed to do a smidge more. Pastor asked about if he had 2 rings would they be different, maybe. Winning 2 SBs over a 12 year career would have been damn impressive. He probably gets in because of how beloved he is by the media and I'm not going to be butthurt if he does get in. I just couldn't see myself trying to justify him getting in when only half his career was HoF worthy.

If/when I get free time this weekend, I will list Hall of Famers who had as many or fewer "Hall of Fame" seasons as Kurt Warner.

 

[BroncoFreak_2K3]

From the AP article:

Davis gave Denver an efficient running game to go with John Elway's passing, and they took the Broncos to championships in 1997 and 1998. This is his ninth year on the ballot.

Efficient? EFFICIENT?

I guess if by efficient, you mean dominant or unstoppable, then yeah, that works.

 

[BroncoFreak_2K3]

The Pro Football Hall of Fame has selected 15 finalists for its 2015 class.

The late Junior Seau and two former Rams teammates, tackle Orlando Pace and quarterback Kurt Warner, highlight the list, which also includes running back Jerome Bettis, wide receiver Tim Brown, running back Terrell Davis, linebacker Kevin Greene, linebacker Charles Haley, receiver Marvin Harrison, safety John Lynch, kicker Morten Andersen, guard Will Shields, and coaches Don Coryell, Tony Dungy and Jimmy Johnson.

tough group to pick 5 from, but I'd probably go with these:1. Seau

2. Pace

3. Haley

4. Harrison Brown

5. T.Davis

 

[OldMilwaukee]

If the Rams had beaten New England would that change your thoughts on Warner? I am not sure he is a Hall of Famer but that second ring would probably do it. I ask because of the cheating issue and how it not only affected the game but possibly Warners hall credentials.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

I think Warner's Second Act in Arizona is enough to get him in at some point.

Personally, I favor guys like Warner & Davis over the steadier, compiler types. That's gun to my head with an "either or" demand; there's room for both, IMO. Both Warner & Davis played their positions at the absolute apex it could be played at. And they did that in multiple seasons (& post seasons).

 

[fantasy stud]

I always got the feeling that warner was a good player who would go as far as the talent around him would take him. He benefited from having Holt, Bruce, and Faulk in St Louis and then Fitzgerald and Boldin in Arizona. without that elite talent, he was just another guy, not a hall of famer. He had a lot of bad years and the other thing that bothered me is how many interceptions he threw. He finished in the 7 for interceptions 4 times including 3 of his pro bowl years. One Super Bowl ring isn't enough to get him in without longevity and proof he could elevate players around him

 

[cstu]

I always got the feeling that warner was a good player who would go as far as the talent around him would take him. He benefited from having Holt, Bruce, and Faulk in St Louis and then Fitzgerald and Boldin in Arizona. without that elite talent, he was just another guy, not a hall of famer. He had a lot of bad years and the other thing that bothered me is how many interceptions he threw. He finished in the 7 for interceptions 4 times including 3 of his pro bowl years. One Super Bowl ring isn't enough to get him in without longevity and proof he could elevate players around him

That's one way to look at it.

The other is that no other QB got those players to the Super Bowl.

 

[Bri]

The perfect leading pass makes the game look so easy and now years later people are discrediting Kurt and his WRs.

Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Peyton...sometimes some players do it well, but nowhere near as often as Kurt did. It's a shame.

I wonder if a guy like Coradelle or Tavon would suddenly be great. If Kendall Wright could get 2000 yards with a younger Kurt and....I really appreciated the timing precision that Kurt displayed and watching Bruce, Holt, or Faulk (with his moves) catch and run was a thing of beauty. Today's QBs often lead the WRs right to a defender where they get smacked or have to make an instantaneous move to get past him. We're in an age where there are some players with amazing feet and few QBs that can take advantage of it. Instead we have Jones and Calvin making a great effort to fight for the ball and Beckham using an amazing reach to make a play.

Kurt made the game look easy and Montana did so before him. I love him for that, it entertained me on so many Sundays.

 

[Adam Harstad]

Kurt Warner's life could be a Disney Movie. He's getting into the Hall of Fame for sure whether people think he "deserves" it or not.

His story is great, don't get me wrong. I admire the guy and he seems like a genuinely good person. I just don't think his body of work screams HoFer. When you have a short career like he did, only 12 years, you need to really have a great resume. He basically has as many years of great as he does of poor. He was basically hurt/a backup for 5 seasons and had 5 great seasons. His great seasons were really great, but what do you do about that stretch from 02-06 where he was doing nothing?

Same thing I see in TD. 1 good season and 3 Great seasons in 8 years in the league. 7600 yards and 60 tds rushing, 1280 and 5 receiving. For 3 years he was unstoppable and was the reason Elway got his rings, but is that really enough for the HoF?

Tim Brown should get in before any WR imo although I wouldnt keep Harrison out either.

Terrell Davis played his position better in the postseason than any player has ever played any position in the entire history of the NFL. Seriously, Joe Montana and Jerry Rice wish they were as good in the postseason as Terrell Davis was.

 

[Tau837]

Kurt Warner's life could be a Disney Movie. He's getting into the Hall of Fame for sure whether people think he "deserves" it or not.

His story is great, don't get me wrong. I admire the guy and he seems like a genuinely good person. I just don't think his body of work screams HoFer. When you have a short career like he did, only 12 years, you need to really have a great resume. He basically has as many years of great as he does of poor. He was basically hurt/a backup for 5 seasons and had 5 great seasons. His great seasons were really great, but what do you do about that stretch from 02-06 where he was doing nothing?

Same thing I see in TD. 1 good season and 3 Great seasons in 8 years in the league. 7600 yards and 60 tds rushing, 1280 and 5 receiving. For 3 years he was unstoppable and was the reason Elway got his rings, but is that really enough for the HoF?

Tim Brown should get in before any WR imo although I wouldnt keep Harrison out either.

Terrell Davis played his position better in the postseason than any player has ever played any position in the entire history of the NFL. Seriously, Joe Montana and Jerry Rice wish they were as good in the postseason as Terrell Davis was.

Gag me.

I know you'll knock out a long narrative talking about how Davis put up the most impressive postseason stats for any RB in history. I expect you will undersell the fact that he arguably had the best situation of any RB in postseason history (Shanahan and that ZBS scheme and staff, Elway, receiving talent, defense, etc.). But facts are facts. I get that.

But to say he outperformed Montana is laughable. Montana has a much larger sample size of postseasons and was incredible. Montana also happens to play QB, which is much more important than RB.

And I expect broadening it out to all positions means there are others who were as good as or better than Davis. I've never seen anyone make a claim or post evidence about the best players to ever play their positions in the postseason, so I'm not exactly sure who else would challenge. I'm sure there have been some amazing defensive players, though. And what about guys like Otto Graham, Jim Brown, Bart Starr, etc. from different eras? What about other players off dynasties like the 60s Packers, 70s Steelers and Cowboys, 80s 49ers, 90s Cowboys, etc.? In many cases, they didn't have as many games in their postseasons, but their performances may have been as good or better.

 

[Tau837]

Actually, that's an interesting question IMO. Did Davis have the best situation of any RB in postseason history? If not, who did?

 

[Ghost Rider]

If having Elway was such a great recipe for a RB doing well, why did no other RB dominate running the ball with him as their QB?

 

[Tau837]

If having Elway was such a great recipe for a RB doing well, why did no other RB dominate running the ball with him as their QB?

I didn't say Elway. I said Shanahan and his staff and ZBS, Elway, receiving talent, defense, etc. Included in etc. is the OL.

Also, I didn't knock Davis. I was responding to Adam's claim that he played his position better than any other player in NFL history. Which I think is an unsupportable and incorrect claim.

Just to be clear, are you taking the stance that Davis did not have an extremely favorable situation?

Are you agreeing with Adam's claim?

 

[moleculo]

If having Elway was such a great recipe for a RB doing well, why did no other RB dominate running the ball with him as their QB?

I didn't say Elway. I said Shanahan and his staff and ZBS, Elway, receiving talent, defense, etc. Included in etc. is the OL.

Also, I didn't knock Davis. I was responding to Adam's claim that he played his position better than any other player in NFL history. Which I think is an unsupportable and incorrect claim.

Just to be clear, are you taking the stance that Davis did not have an extremely favorable situation?

Are you agreeing with Adam's claim?

lets keep all of that in perspective. What you are talking about here is a 38 year QB with a reputation for choking in the SB, a WR two years removed from going undrafted (Rod Smith), a journeyman WR on his 3rd team (McCaffrey), the smallest OL in the league, and an untested run-blocking scheme. In hindsight, it all worked out amazing, but heading into the 1997 season, I don't think anyone would have made the claim that this was a favorable situation.

Remember, 1996 ended with the worst post-season loss in Broncos history (SB collapses included), and many doubted Elway would get another chance.

I would say Emmett Smith had a more favorable RB situation - HoF QB, HoF WR, pro-bowl TE, pro-bowl FB, and a legendary OL. That was a much more favorable situation, and what TD did dwarfed what Emmitt did in the post-season (in terms of per-game or per-carry).

I would not agree that what TD did in the playoffs was the best performance in the history of the NFL without looking it up. I would note that on a per-game basis, he is so far ahead of his peers statistically though that it wouldn't surprise me if it was true.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Well said, moleculo. There is no way Terrell Davis had a more favorable situation than Emmitt Smith, and I am sure there are many others.

JWB, no, I am not necessarily agreeing with Adam's claim, which was likely hyperbole on his part, even if he is right that Davis was a dominant postseason player. Across multiple postseasons. On a team that won multiple titles.

It's funny how people act like rings are so important when it comes to quarterbacks, but when it comes to other players, not so much. Granted, QB is the most important position in the sport, but for Davis to struggle to get into the Hall, while Curtis Martin, who was damn great, but at his best, never as great as Davis, made it in on his first try. It's a joke.

 

[Fariq]

Martin was not a first ballot selection.

 

[Fariq]

Kurt Warner's life could be a Disney Movie. He's getting into the Hall of Fame for sure whether people think he "deserves" it or not.

His story is great, don't get me wrong. I admire the guy and he seems like a genuinely good person. I just don't think his body of work screams HoFer. When you have a short career like he did, only 12 years, you need to really have a great resume. He basically has as many years of great as he does of poor. He was basically hurt/a backup for 5 seasons and had 5 great seasons. His great seasons were really great, but what do you do about that stretch from 02-06 where he was doing nothing?

Same thing I see in TD. 1 good season and 3 Great seasons in 8 years in the league. 7600 yards and 60 tds rushing, 1280 and 5 receiving. For 3 years he was unstoppable and was the reason Elway got his rings, but is that really enough for the HoF?

Tim Brown should get in before any WR imo although I wouldnt keep Harrison out either.

Terrell Davis played his position better in the postseason than any player has ever played any position in the entire history of the NFL. Seriously, Joe Montana and Jerry Rice wish they were as good in the postseason as Terrell Davis was.

Gag me.

I know you'll knock out a long narrative talking about how Davis put up the most impressive postseason stats for any RB in history. I expect you will undersell the fact that he arguably had the best situation of any RB in postseason history (Shanahan and that ZBS scheme and staff, Elway, receiving talent, defense, etc.). But facts are facts. I get that.

But to say he outperformed Montana is laughable. Montana has a much larger sample size of postseasons and was incredible. Montana also happens to play QB, which is much more important than RB.

And I expect broadening it out to all positions means there are others who were as good as or better than Davis. I've never seen anyone make a claim or post evidence about the best players to ever play their positions in the postseason, so I'm not exactly sure who else would challenge. I'm sure there have been some amazing defensive players, though. And what about guys like Otto Graham, Jim Brown, Bart Starr, etc. from different eras? What about other players off dynasties like the 60s Packers, 70s Steelers and Cowboys, 80s 49ers, 90s Cowboys, etc.? In many cases, they didn't have as many games in their postseasons, but their performances may have been as good or better.

Graham was rotten in some playoff games.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Martin was not a first ballot selection.

My bad. He made it on his 2nd try. Still a travesty that he got in that quickly while Davis is still waiting.

 

[moleculo]

Kurt Warner's life could be a Disney Movie. He's getting into the Hall of Fame for sure whether people think he "deserves" it or not.

His story is great, don't get me wrong. I admire the guy and he seems like a genuinely good person. I just don't think his body of work screams HoFer. When you have a short career like he did, only 12 years, you need to really have a great resume. He basically has as many years of great as he does of poor. He was basically hurt/a backup for 5 seasons and had 5 great seasons. His great seasons were really great, but what do you do about that stretch from 02-06 where he was doing nothing?

Same thing I see in TD. 1 good season and 3 Great seasons in 8 years in the league. 7600 yards and 60 tds rushing, 1280 and 5 receiving. For 3 years he was unstoppable and was the reason Elway got his rings, but is that really enough for the HoF?

Tim Brown should get in before any WR imo although I wouldnt keep Harrison out either.

Terrell Davis played his position better in the postseason than any player has ever played any position in the entire history of the NFL. Seriously, Joe Montana and Jerry Rice wish they were as good in the postseason as Terrell Davis was.

Gag me.

I know you'll knock out a long narrative talking about how Davis put up the most impressive postseason stats for any RB in history. I expect you will undersell the fact that he arguably had the best situation of any RB in postseason history (Shanahan and that ZBS scheme and staff, Elway, receiving talent, defense, etc.). But facts are facts. I get that.

But to say he outperformed Montana is laughable. Montana has a much larger sample size of postseasons and was incredible. Montana also happens to play QB, which is much more important than RB.

And I expect broadening it out to all positions means there are others who were as good as or better than Davis. I've never seen anyone make a claim or post evidence about the best players to ever play their positions in the postseason, so I'm not exactly sure who else would challenge. I'm sure there have been some amazing defensive players, though. And what about guys like Otto Graham, Jim Brown, Bart Starr, etc. from different eras? What about other players off dynasties like the 60s Packers, 70s Steelers and Cowboys, 80s 49ers, 90s Cowboys, etc.? In many cases, they didn't have as many games in their postseasons, but their performances may have been as good or better.

Graham was rotten in some playoff games.

Joe Montana had a 3 year stretch where he put up a composite 44/88 (52%), 503 yards, 0 TD, 4 int, his team losing all three games by a combined 30-102.

In TD's worst playoff game, he was 14-91 (6.5 ypc), 1 TD, 7 receptions, 24 yards and a 2 point conversion.

 

[Fariq]

Martin was not a first ballot selection.

My bad. He made it on his 2nd try. Still a travesty that he got in that quickly while Davis is still waiting.

Why is it a travesty? Sure, Davis had a higher peak but you know the argument against him. I don't need to go over it.

 

[Raider Nation]

Your 2015 Hall of Fame class: Jerome Bettis, Tim Brown, Charles Haley, Bill Polian, Junior Seau, Will Shields, Mike Tingelhoff, Ron Wolf.

 

[Capella]

No Orlando Pace. WTF

 

[moleculo]

Bettis? Seriously? What a downright crock of ####.

 

[moleculo]

Hall of Fame, my ###. More like hall of pretty good players that idiot east coast sportswriters want to make babies with.

 

[Freelove]

Good class. Got some work to do to catch up with all the deserving guys, but nobody out of place in this crew.

 

[ffldrew]

Martin was not a first ballot selection.

My bad. He made it on his 2nd try. Still a travesty that he got in that quickly while Davis is still waiting.

Why is it a travesty?Sure, Davis had a higher peak but you know the argument against him. I don't need to go over it.

He had Brian griese at QB - ended his career

A joke that Martin and Bettis are in now over TD - they were never better

 

[Buffaloes]

No Orlando Pace. WTF

should have played in Pitt, Dallas or NY

no seriously, how does Bettis get in when Pace and TD are sitting on the outside looking in?

 

[jetpack]

Martin was not a first ballot selection.

My bad. He made it on his 2nd try. Still a travesty that he got in that quickly while Davis is still waiting.

Why is it a travesty?Sure, Davis had a higher peak but you know the argument against him. I don't need to go over it.

He had Brian griese at QB - ended his career

A joke that Martin and Bettis are in now over TD - they were never better

Other than 93, 94, 95, 99, 00, 01, 02, 03, 04, and 05. And Bettis wasn't too far off in 97. I see room for all three honestly.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

<<<<<<<<<------ Miss ya #55 - RIP, first ballot no doubter HOF, I might make the trek in early August since Ive never been to Canton

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

No Orlando Pace. WTF

should have played in Pitt, Dallas or NYno seriously, how does Bettis get in when Pace and TD are sitting on the outside looking in?

Do you always answer the question, then ask it afterwards?