Public Schools are getting worse (1 Viewer)

[Max Power]

Last year my youngest daughter was having a lot of problems with other girls in middle school. It escalated to problems with the teachers and eventually got to the point where my wife and I had issues with the principal. Mostly due to the principle going through my daughter's phone over a rumor that was reported to her. We were never informed of that until our daughter told us it happened.

My daughter isn't above the drama, but the school did a horrible job in so many areas managing the kids last year. We ultimately pulled her out of that middle school and she will attend a Christian private school this year. Thankfully we made the cut, in part because I agreed to help with their athletic program. Their applications were up substantially this year. Along with that, some scholarship money I tought we were going to get only cane back at 10% because according to that organization their applications were up 50% from last year.

Now what really has me annoyed is that I have two kids going to the local public high school and went back this week. So far the school has made an announcement that not all students will get a Chromebook, although it's required for their schoolwork. They also have a shortage of lockers, so not every kid is going to get a locker and some kids will have to share.

Talking to my son after his first day, his homeroom is in a trailer they placed behind the school. Apparently they have 3 of these set up this year. I haven't seen the setup yet, but it doesn't sound like there is much security.

He currently doesn't have a math teacher because the teacher quit right before school started and the school has no replacement. It's been 3 days with three different substitutes who have no idea what is going on.

To top all this off... 3 days in and there has already been a kid stabbed with a screwdriver. This is rural NC in a decent area. They have metal detectors at the entrances and even go through kids bags when they enter, but this still happens.

It just feels like the schools have lost control. Education scores are dropping and we aren't going in the right direction to fix it all. I see why parents are flocking to private schools.

I don't think these issues are isolated to my area. Only a couple weeks ago a neighboring county reported they still have 30 teacher openings unfilled.

Public schools are broken.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

I can't comment on their current state, but a few of those things were present way back when I went to public schools. Due to overcrowding we had to share lockers and a few classes were held in trailers on the school grounds. There were also teacher shortages that sometimes resulted in long term subs or even the vice principal running a class. But because it was a different era the security was fairly non existent compared to today.

 

[rockaction]

It just feels like the schools have lost control. Education scores are dropping and we aren't going in the right direction to fix it all. I see why parents are flocking to private schools.

I don't think these issues are isolated to my area. Only a couple weeks ago a neighboring county reported they still have 30 teacher openings unfilled.

Public schools are broken.

I’m really sorry to hear this about your children. Sounds like this thread will be less about developmental and social stuff and will veer more towards policy and politics as the thread goes along. I’m not policing. Just so you know.

But damn that sucks, Max. I feel for you and your kids.

 

[BeTheMatch]

Public schools aren't broken.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Any idea what caused the overcrowding? It seems to me (outside observer) that our local school board has done a pretty good job looking at our demographics a few years down the road and staying ahead of predictable changes to incoming classes. Was this a case of something happening by surprise, or just folks being asleep at the switch?

 

[BeTheMatch]

Any idea what caused the overcrowding? It seems to me (outside observer) that our local school board has done a pretty good job looking at our demographics a few years down the road and staying ahead of predictable changes to incoming classes. Was this a case of something happening by surprise, or just folks being asleep at the switch?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say a lack of funding. This is what happens when people continuously vote against levies. What do you want them to do, build another building with no money?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Any idea what caused the overcrowding? It seems to me (outside observer) that our local school board has done a pretty good job looking at our demographics a few years down the road and staying ahead of predictable changes to incoming classes. Was this a case of something happening by surprise, or just folks being asleep at the switch?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say a lack of funding. This is what happens when people continuously vote against levies. What do you want them to do, build another building with no money?

It seems like you're here for an argument. Please leave me out of this.

 

[BeTheMatch]

Any idea what caused the overcrowding? It seems to me (outside observer) that our local school board has done a pretty good job looking at our demographics a few years down the road and staying ahead of predictable changes to incoming classes. Was this a case of something happening by surprise, or just folks being asleep at the switch?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say a lack of funding. This is what happens when people continuously vote against levies. What do you want them to do, build another building with no money?

It seems like you're here for an argument. Please leave me out of this.

I'm here for an argument? You just theorized school crowding was due to folks being asleep at the switch.

But I'll step out and let the public policy wonks get to the bottom of this.

 

[Max Power]

It just feels like the schools have lost control. Education scores are dropping and we aren't going in the right direction to fix it all. I see why parents are flocking to private schools.

I don't think these issues are isolated to my area. Only a couple weeks ago a neighboring county reported they still have 30 teacher openings unfilled.

Public schools are broken.

I’m really sorry to hear this about your children. Sounds like this thread will be less about developmental and social stuff and will veer more towards policy and politics as the thread goes along. I’m not policing. Just so you know.

But damn that sucks, Max. I feel for you and your kids.

I appreciate it and I hope it doesn't take a political turn, but it may. I'm just frustrated in the state of public education.

My wife and our peer group obviously share similar frustrations. We have a couple teacher friends who don't speak highly of the public education operation. My wife even worked as a substitute teacher for a couple years before she had to walk away from that for various reasons.

The past week has moved the needle for me from being worried about public education to being alarmed. The schools here aren't great and now we're adding an overcrowding element. That isn't improving an already poor product.

 

[Max Power]

Any idea what caused the overcrowding? It seems to me (outside observer) that our local school board has done a pretty good job looking at our demographics a few years down the road and staying ahead of predictable changes to incoming classes. Was this a case of something happening by surprise, or just folks being asleep at the switch?

I wish I knew. My surface level math says 3 new classrooms at 20ish kids a pop means the school population grew about 60 kids over the year. Overall class size is about 400 kids per grade.

We've had multiple 4+ bedroom developments pop up over the last couple years and houses are sold as soon as they are built.

I think the school had to know the influx was coming. What I don't know is when the school sees the money for the incoming tax revenue. Is it always a year behind?

I'm in NC and our lottery is supposed to help fund education as well. I feel it might be time to re-look at the ratio of that payout.

As for the teacher angle, I don't know why anyone would want a starting teacher salary today. It's 4 years of college for an entry level job. It also feels like the teacher demographic is getting younger at public schools and once a teacher establishes themselves they move on to more financially beneficial openings.

 

[simey]

Talking to my son after his first day, his homeroom is in a trailer they placed behind the school. Apparently they have 3 of these set up this year. I haven't seen the setup yet, but it doesn't sound like there is much security.

A lot of the elementary and middle schools here have trailers outside of the main school buildings. My sister has taught in one for years. They have a heavy big door that the teachers keep locked at all times. More and more apartments and houses keep being built, and the schools can't keep up with the overcrowding. Where are you in NC?

 

[rockaction]

I appreciate it and I hope it doesn't take a political turn, but it may. I'm just frustrated in the state of public education.

My wife and our peer group obviously share similar frustrations. We have a couple teacher friends who don't speak highly of the public education operation. My wife even worked as a substitute teacher for a couple years before she had to walk away from that for various reasons.

The past week has moved the needle for me from being worried about public education to being alarmed. The schools here aren't great and now we're adding an overcrowding element. That isn't improving an already poor product.

Well, best of luck. I hope for the best for your children. On a personal level, I don’t have children; therefore, I’m not going through this right now, but I do know that in twenty years my life will be determined by our public education’s efficacy, so I hope it isn’t as bleak as you’re positing. I have a stake in this, too, and I’m not entirely sanguine about it.

We shall see.

 

[Sleestak]

NC ranks fairly low in per-student spending. I generally am skeptical that all problems can be solved by more spending, but spending may be part of the issue here. Sounds like NC has hollowed out the school system to the point that people are going to private and religious schools. Bug, or feature, is a matter for a different board.

 

[El Floppo]

Sounds like if over-crowdijg is an issue, people leaving is one solution if the money isn't there to offer more resources like new buildings or more teacher hires.

Fwiw, I know a lot of people have left NYC public schools, but from our experience and from those of our friends, they've been good to great... Even with issues that were relevant from my day.

That said- we ended up throwing our hat into the private school world. not because we didn't like the schools, but because during COVID my son was applying to HS and they completely changed the acceptance criteria at the last minute and then didn't offer placement until deep into summer instead of March. My wife wisely thought we should roll the dice trying private even though we weren't fancy enough to get in or have any money to pay for them even if we did. Son for in everywhere and our top choice made it essentially free to go there.

 

[Max Power]

Talking to my son after his first day, his homeroom is in a trailer they placed behind the school. Apparently they have 3 of these set up this year. I haven't seen the setup yet, but it doesn't sound like there is much security.

A lot of the elementary and middle schools here have trailers outside of the main school buildings. My sister has taught in one for years. They have a heavy big door that the teachers keep locked at all times. More and more apartments and houses keep being built, and the schools can't keep up with the overcrowding. Where are you in NC?

I'm in Moore Co. The highschool I'm complaining about is in Harnett Co.

 

[simey]

NC ranks fairly low in per-student spending. I generally am skeptical that all problems can be solved by more spending, but spending may be part of the issue here. Sounds like NC has hollowed out the school system to the point that people are going to private and religious schools. Bug, or feature, is a matter for a different board.

Legislation has not been kind to the education system here. The governor has tried for years to get teachers raises and improve the school system. The college level is great, but grade school is dismissed by legislators who clearly have zero respect for educators.

 

[El Floppo]

It just feels like the schools have lost control. Education scores are dropping and we aren't going in the right direction to fix it all. I see why parents are flocking to private schools.

I don't think these issues are isolated to my area. Only a couple weeks ago a neighboring county reported they still have 30 teacher openings unfilled.

Public schools are broken.

I’m really sorry to hear this about your children. Sounds like this thread will be less about developmental and social stuff and will veer more towards policy and politics as the thread goes along. I’m not policing. Just so you know.

But damn that sucks, Max. I feel for you and your kids.

I appreciate it and I hope it doesn't take a political turn, but it may. I'm just frustrated in the state of public education.

My wife and our peer group obviously share similar frustrations. We have a couple teacher friends who don't speak highly of the public education operation. My wife even worked as a substitute teacher for a couple years before she had to walk away from that for various reasons.

The past week has moved the needle for me from being worried about public education to being alarmed. The schools here aren't great and now we're adding an overcrowding element. That isn't improving an already poor product.

Good luck max.. sucks as a parent to be in this situation where outside things are getting in the way of your kids opportunities.

Considering public schools are publicly funded, not sure how this won't get political... Even though it would be a great conversation to have.

 

[Max Power]

I appreciate it and I hope it doesn't take a political turn, but it may. I'm just frustrated in the state of public education.

My wife and our peer group obviously share similar frustrations. We have a couple teacher friends who don't speak highly of the public education operation. My wife even worked as a substitute teacher for a couple years before she had to walk away from that for various reasons.

The past week has moved the needle for me from being worried about public education to being alarmed. The schools here aren't great and now we're adding an overcrowding element. That isn't improving an already poor product.

Well, best of luck. I hope for the best for your children. On a personal level, I don’t have children; therefore, I’m not going through this right now, but I do know that in twenty years my life will be determined by our public education’s efficacy, so I hope it isn’t as bleak as you’re positing. I have a stake in this, too, and I’m not entirely sanguine about it.

We shall see.

Unfortunately the Covid pandemic did a lot of harm to our educational system. I think it's rebounding, but we aren't where we were 5 years ago.

My 16 year is a good kid with some ADHD issues. He went from a C student pre covid to basically straight A's now. I don't think it was all him and it's more a standard change within the schools. I help with homework and see what he turns in. It doesn't strike me as A material.

I hope I'm just hypersensitive to the issue and it's not as bad as I think, but I don't think so.

 

[El Floppo]

I appreciate it and I hope it doesn't take a political turn, but it may. I'm just frustrated in the state of public education.

My wife and our peer group obviously share similar frustrations. We have a couple teacher friends who don't speak highly of the public education operation. My wife even worked as a substitute teacher for a couple years before she had to walk away from that for various reasons.

The past week has moved the needle for me from being worried about public education to being alarmed. The schools here aren't great and now we're adding an overcrowding element. That isn't improving an already poor product.

Well, best of luck. I hope for the best for your children. On a personal level, I don’t have children; therefore, I’m not going through this right now, but I do know that in twenty years my life will be determined by our public education’s efficacy, so I hope it isn’t as bleak as you’re positing. I have a stake in this, too, and I’m not entirely sanguine about it.

We shall see.

Unfortunately the Covid pandemic did a lot of harm to our educational system. I think it's rebounding, but we aren't where we were 5 years ago.

My 16 year is a good kid with some ADHD issues. He went from a C student pre covid to basically straight A's now. I don't think it was all him and it's more a standard change within the schools. I help with homework and see what he turns in. It doesn't strike me as A material.

I hope I'm just hypersensitive to the issue and it's not as bad as I think, but I don't think so.

We've seen some grade inflation too here in NYC. And COVID is when most people left...which helped here at least with over crowding. My daughters elementary class went from 32 kids to 24 or so...which made a huge difference for her as a more reserved kid.

I'd be interested in hearing from more people in different areas their general perspective... The subject title reads as universal, and not NC specific.

 

[Max Power]

I appreciate it and I hope it doesn't take a political turn, but it may. I'm just frustrated in the state of public education.

My wife and our peer group obviously share similar frustrations. We have a couple teacher friends who don't speak highly of the public education operation. My wife even worked as a substitute teacher for a couple years before she had to walk away from that for various reasons.

The past week has moved the needle for me from being worried about public education to being alarmed. The schools here aren't great and now we're adding an overcrowding element. That isn't improving an already poor product.

Well, best of luck. I hope for the best for your children. On a personal level, I don’t have children; therefore, I’m not going through this right now, but I do know that in twenty years my life will be determined by our public education’s efficacy, so I hope it isn’t as bleak as you’re positing. I have a stake in this, too, and I’m not entirely sanguine about it.

We shall see.

Unfortunately the Covid pandemic did a lot of harm to our educational system. I think it's rebounding, but we aren't where we were 5 years ago.

My 16 year is a good kid with some ADHD issues. He went from a C student pre covid to basically straight A's now. I don't think it was all him and it's more a standard change within the schools. I help with homework and see what he turns in. It doesn't strike me as A material.

I hope I'm just hypersensitive to the issue and it's not as bad as I think, but I don't think so.

We've seen some grade inflation too here in NYC. And COVID is when most people left...which helped here at least with over crowding. My daughters elementary class went from 32 kids to 24 or so...which made a huge difference for her as a more reserved kid.

I'd be interested in hearing from more people in different areas their general perspective... The subject title reads as universal, and not NC specific.

The per class ratio is huge for quality of education in my opinion. The private school my youngest is attending tries to cap classes at 1:18 ratio.

 

[El Floppo]

I appreciate it and I hope it doesn't take a political turn, but it may. I'm just frustrated in the state of public education.

My wife and our peer group obviously share similar frustrations. We have a couple teacher friends who don't speak highly of the public education operation. My wife even worked as a substitute teacher for a couple years before she had to walk away from that for various reasons.

The past week has moved the needle for me from being worried about public education to being alarmed. The schools here aren't great and now we're adding an overcrowding element. That isn't improving an already poor product.

Well, best of luck. I hope for the best for your children. On a personal level, I don’t have children; therefore, I’m not going through this right now, but I do know that in twenty years my life will be determined by our public education’s efficacy, so I hope it isn’t as bleak as you’re positing. I have a stake in this, too, and I’m not entirely sanguine about it.

We shall see.

Unfortunately the Covid pandemic did a lot of harm to our educational system. I think it's rebounding, but we aren't where we were 5 years ago.

My 16 year is a good kid with some ADHD issues. He went from a C student pre covid to basically straight A's now. I don't think it was all him and it's more a standard change within the schools. I help with homework and see what he turns in. It doesn't strike me as A material.

I hope I'm just hypersensitive to the issue and it's not as bad as I think, but I don't think so.

We've seen some grade inflation too here in NYC. And COVID is when most people left...which helped here at least with over crowding. My daughters elementary class went from 32 kids to 24 or so...which made a huge difference for her as a more reserved kid.

I'd be interested in hearing from more people in different areas their general perspective... The subject title reads as universal, and not NC specific.

The per class ratio is huge for quality of education in my opinion. The private school my youngest is attending tries to cap classes at 1:18 ratio.

That's #1 for sure.
At our private school, at least, we've also seen that kids and parents actually have a say in how things go... Something that definitely didn't happen at the NYC publics. It's helped both my kids be active advocates in their own education- something their school seems to encourage.

 

[Ilov80s]

Like all things, I would say it varies widely across the country depending on the quality of the community, commitment to public ed, funding and just some other historic factors that are hard to measure. In SE Michigan I know of some excellent districts and some that really suck and all possibles in between. SES plays a big role but isn’t the only thing. Even within the same district, there are some schools that just have a better culture than others.

 

[Hastur]

The area I live in now is growing exponentially. The main city near me spent a bunch of money and did some great downtown improvements. As a result, it was in some of those "Best cities to live in" type lists for a while. Predictably, the area has grown. Infrastructure has not kept up(schools, public utilities, child care, community services, etc.). The area has seen unchecked home construction. I don't see any new schools being built though. Thankfully my kids are out of high school and about halfway through college. I see major unrest soon when the problems Max outlined above rears it's ugly head.


My cynical nature tells me communities influence(read: buy) those 'best cities to live in' lists in the hopes of securing tax dollars via population growth down the road. What they do with those new dollars is the key. So far, my area has failed. But I digress...

 

[Capella]

Quite frankly, and sadly imo, many areas of the country prioritize funding other ventures rather than public schools.

Our schools should be beautiful, safe buildings where teachers are paid a very good wage for doing really important work. We don’t prioritize that and so we get what we get. It sucks.

 

[the moops]

Quite frankly, and sadly imo, many areas of the country prioritize funding other ventures rather than public schools.

Our schools should be beautiful, safe buildings where teachers are paid a very good wage for doing really important work. We don’t prioritize that and so we get what we get. It sucks.

I was a public school teacher for 7 years. 3 years in a wealthy suburb, 4 years in an alternate school for city kids. Both were the hardest jobs I ever had. You would need to pay me at least 1.5 times my current salary to go back.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Combining all levels of government, the U.S. spends somewhere between $780-830 billion on education. Is the amount of money available really the problem?

 

[Ilov80s]

Quite frankly, and sadly imo, many areas of the country prioritize funding other ventures rather than public schools.

Our schools should be beautiful, safe buildings where teachers are paid a very good wage for doing really important work. We don’t prioritize that and so we get what we get. It sucks.

I was a public school teacher for 7 years. 3 years in a wealthy suburb, 4 years in an alternate school for city kids. Both were the hardest jobs I ever had. You would need to pay me at least 1.5 times my current salary to go back.

Yeah it’s legitimately tough work. I know we get mocked by some people but teaching is crazy. I love my wife, I know she works hard but she does HR from home. This summer, I’ve been mostly off and see her workday. Lots of time to play with our puppy, cook, run errands, watch movies, etc during the work day. There’s no downtime like that teaching that’s for sure. I can’t complain because the time off is incredible but when you are working, it’s a non stop assault on your senses and mind.

 

[Capella]

Quite frankly, and sadly imo, many areas of the country prioritize funding other ventures rather than public schools.

Our schools should be beautiful, safe buildings where teachers are paid a very good wage for doing really important work. We don’t prioritize that and so we get what we get. It sucks.

I was a public school teacher for 7 years. 3 years in a wealthy suburb, 4 years in an alternate school for city kids. Both were the hardest jobs I ever had. You would need to pay me at least 1.5 times my current salary to go back.

My wife was a teacher and she left. The pay was just not competitive for what she could get elsewhere. It’s a shame.

 

[Ilov80s]

Combining all levels of government, the U.S. spends somewhere between $780-830 billion on education. Is the amount of money available really the problem?

With about 50 million kids in k-12 and another 20 million people in college, that’s $13,000 per person so it’s not really that much. Though obviously at college level there’s also tuitions involved. Perhaps how we are spending the money is a bigger issue. I know a district I recently was employed with was spending a ridiculous amount on a lot administrators who imo did absolutely zero to improve any student outcomes.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Combining all levels of government, the U.S. spends somewhere between $780-830 billion on education. Is the amount of money available really the problem?

With about 50 million kids in k-12 and another 20 million people in college, that’s $13,000 per person so it’s not really that much. Though obviously at college level there’s also tuitions involved. Perhaps how we are spending the money is a bigger issue. I know a district I recently was employed with was spending a ridiculous amount on a lot administrators who imo did absolutely zero to improve any student outcomes.

That's kind of what I was implying. I have an article that I won't post because it gets political but it starts with this assessment:

...a chart illustrating the comparative growth in the number of students, teachers, and district administrators in our public schools in the period between 2000 and 2019. The number of district administrators grew by a whopping 87.6 percent during these years, far outstripping the growth in the number of students (7.6 percent) and teachers (8.7 percent).

Edit: Actually if you search "administrative growth in education" it seems both "sides" have identified the problem.

 

[Ilov80s]

I looked and North Carolina seems to have teacher salaries set by the State which is odd. That’s definitely not how Michigan does it. Here in Michigan a teacher can leave for another district that offers more money. If you have a masters degree in NC, you have to work 5 years to finally hit $50,000. After 20 years, you haven’t even hit $60,000 yet. It’s pretty easy to see why there could be a teacher shortage there.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Any idea what caused the overcrowding? It seems to me (outside observer) that our local school board has done a pretty good job looking at our demographics a few years down the road and staying ahead of predictable changes to incoming classes. Was this a case of something happening by surprise, or just folks being asleep at the switch?

I wish I knew. My surface level math says 3 new classrooms at 20ish kids a pop means the school population grew about 60 kids over the year. Overall class size is about 400 kids per grade.

We've had multiple 4+ bedroom developments pop up over the last couple years and houses are sold as soon as they are built.

I think the school had to know the influx was coming. What I don't know is when the school sees the money for the incoming tax revenue. Is it always a year behind?

I'm in NC and our lottery is supposed to help fund education as well. I feel it might be time to re-look at the ratio of that payout.

As for the teacher angle, I don't know why anyone would want a starting teacher salary today. It's 4 years of college for an entry level job. It also feels like the teacher demographic is getting younger at public schools and once a teacher establishes themselves they move on to more financially beneficial openings.

We have this issue too, but for us, the reason is obvious -- teacher salaries in my state are just lower than those in nearby states. You can't have a significant salary gap when the state line is right there.

 

[the moops]

I looked and North Carolina seems to have teacher salaries set by the State which is odd. That’s definitely not how Michigan does it. Here in Michigan a teacher can leave for another district that offers more money. If you have a masters degree in NC, you have to work 5 years to finally hit $50,000. After 20 years, you haven’t even hit $60,000 yet. It’s pretty easy to see why there could be a teacher shortage there.

That’s terrible. Double those salaries then we are getting somewhere.

 

[Don Quixote]

I looked and North Carolina seems to have teacher salaries set by the State which is odd. That’s definitely not how Michigan does it. Here in Michigan a teacher can leave for another district that offers more money. If you have a masters degree in NC, you have to work 5 years to finally hit $50,000. After 20 years, you haven’t even hit $60,000 yet. It’s pretty easy to see why there could be a teacher shortage there.

My sister is a public HS teacher in North Carolina. Been losing a lot of teachers. She started off teaching in Charlotte, but left the city because not worth the cost of living. She also had to start a side gig trying to sell that Rodan and Fields crap to try to help boost income.

 

[JB Breakfast Club]

I think my least favorite argument about schools goes like this: "the school is struggling to provide supplies and retain teachers, so I'm going to pull my student, costing the school a funding allocation. Good luck everyone else who doesn't have the same privilege." I will admit I didn't read this thread, but I assume it's in here.

 

[AAABatteries]

Combining all levels of government, the U.S. spends somewhere between $780-830 billion on education. Is the amount of money available really the problem?

I would assume great inefficiency like most programs but ignoring that it does seem to (naturally) correlate spending with results. The thing that jumps out at me about these stats is how much more some states are spending. North Carolina is pretty low on both lists.

https://educationdata.org/public-education-spending-statistics

Public School Rankings by State 2024

worldpopulationreview.com

More money doesn’t guarantee anything though.

ETA - I just googled and grabbed links. I’m taking the numbers at face value.

 

[belljr]

Our public schools are phenomenal

 

[Rustoleum]

But at the same time, it’s hard to ask somebody to make their kid bear the burden of improving a district. Yes, your kid won’t be a discipline problem , will set a good example, and raise test scores, and if there are enough kids like that, they will do more to raise the quality of a school than any number of initiatives, programs, and funds and programs a district could throw at it.

But if you can send them somewhere where the the roof doesn’t leak, there aren’t 32 kids in a classroom, and a student doesn’t have to be removed for defiance/disruption every class period, it’s hard to hold that against people.

As long as you don’t then try to defund or punish the public district for not being to compete on the same level as a private school that gets to play with a completely different rule book, hat is.

 

[Sparky Polastri]

Im a product of this school system. So is my dad and my grandmother was a teacher in the system. The problems are not new outside the additional problems being created in Raleigh finally pushing teachers to say " enough is enough" and" its just not worth it"

Pay has always been an issue and schools have been underfunded for decades with administrators making sure they get their share.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I appreciate it and I hope it doesn't take a political turn, but it may. I'm just frustrated in the state of public education.

My wife and our peer group obviously share similar frustrations. We have a couple teacher friends who don't speak highly of the public education operation. My wife even worked as a substitute teacher for a couple years before she had to walk away from that for various reasons.

The past week has moved the needle for me from being worried about public education to being alarmed. The schools here aren't great and now we're adding an overcrowding element. That isn't improving an already poor product.

Well, best of luck. I hope for the best for your children. On a personal level, I don’t have children; therefore, I’m not going through this right now, but I do know that in twenty years my life will be determined by our public education’s efficacy, so I hope it isn’t as bleak as you’re positing. I have a stake in this, too, and I’m not entirely sanguine about it.

We shall see.

Unfortunately the Covid pandemic did a lot of harm to our educational system. I think it's rebounding, but we aren't where we were 5 years ago.

My 16 year is a good kid with some ADHD issues. He went from a C student pre covid to basically straight A's now. I don't think it was all him and it's more a standard change within the schools. I help with homework and see what he turns in. It doesn't strike me as A material.

I hope I'm just hypersensitive to the issue and it's not as bad as I think, but I don't think so.

You know your son better than I do, but maybe the pandemic flipped a proverbial switch for your son. Or maybe he was just always destined to be one of those people who suddenly "gets it" as a teenager. Not saying that grade inflation isn't playing a role, but it could be that your son is just actually doing well.

 

[Monty Burns]

Combining all levels of government, the U.S. spends somewhere between $780-830 billion on education. Is the amount of money available really the problem?

I can't help but wonder what of that amount is Federal and State Government "overhead" for Education.

 

[Jayrod]

My wife is an Assistant Principal for an elementary school. She spent 16 years as a teacher prior to going into admin plus we have a Freshman and Senior in High School this year.

I also have my sister, 2 in-laws and a few close friends that are teachers. I'm not in that world personally (accountant) but much of my life is effected by the local public education system.

Our area has the largest school district in Missouri (Springfield Public Schools) as well as several public districts of all sizes. My wife and kids are at the second largest in the area and honestly the most well run district around. They win numerous awards every year at the State and National level.

I believe what makes the district so successful is 2 key things:

1. Demographics - mostly middle to upper class families
2. Funding - the voters have not turned down a single bond/funding proposal in my lifetime. Buildings are newer and maintained and the student:teacher ratio is comfortable.

The district doesn't pay the best, but the quality of the teaching environment is pretty good compared to other districts. Also, the population is growing rapidly and the board is addressing the growth and planning 5-10-15-20 years ahead for the projected growth.

We've had a positive experience overall, but I've heard we are the exception.

 

[dkp993]

Combining all levels of government, the U.S. spends somewhere between $780-830 billion on education. Is the amount of money available really the problem?

With about 50 million kids in k-12 and another 20 million people in college, that’s $13,000 per person so it’s not really that much. Though obviously at college level there’s also tuitions involved. Perhaps how we are spending the money is a bigger issue. I know a district I recently was employed with was spending a ridiculous amount on a lot administrators who imo did absolutely zero to improve any student outcomes.

This is a good perspective imo 80’s. It’s likely (though I am certainly no expert) how that money is being managed at all levels. For example I’m in what’s considered a good school district here in SoCal. My kid is in elementary school and my wife is the PTA president. We’re overall happy with my daughter’s experience but it’s mind blowing how the district spends its money. Currently the district board president is suing due to being recalled for some truly awful decisions. The lawsuit defense cost are being paid by who? You guessed it, us. Right now it’s close to half a million dollars. Unreal. Meanwhile teachers are buying basic school supplies for their classes out of their own pockets. The system is broken.

 

[msudaisy26]

The system is broken, not the schools. Funding, parents, certain laws etc.

Imagine showing up to fantasy football draft, but you only get half the picks as everyone else and then everyone telling you how bad you suck at fantasy football.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

My kids are still in elementary school so I can't comment on middle/high school, but I am just blown away by the teachers at our kid's school. I honestly don't understand how they do it. You put me in a room with that many young kids all day I would be strangling them before lunchtime like a teacher out of The Simpsons. These teachers are so patient, use so much of their personal time/money on the kids (despite being paid peanuts), and do such a good job putting their energy into helping the kids learn with a calmness and patience I'll never have.

Our kids are so far ahead of where me or my wife ever were at similar ages (and we both did very well academically). Our kids were reading in Kindergarten. Reading legit novels in 1st grade. If I recall back in my days 1st grade was where we really STARTED to learn actual reading. Our son had read the entire Percy Jackson series of novels a couple months into 1st grade.

It's just amazing what those people do for kids for so little money. They're just such good people that put all of that ahead of their own personal success/wealth.

Our kids consistently have 24-26 people in their class so I feel fortunate about that after hearing others with much more. Things like large class sizes, lack of teachers, lack of chromebooks SEEM like they have an easy answer especially in places that consistently don't approve spending on schools, but I'm open to the idea there is a lot of mismanagement of funds. Here we are fortunate that they either do a good job with the money or get enough. I know whenever something comes up on the ballot for schools it passes with a massive majority, despite this being a traditionally cautious state with spending (Utah).

 

[IvanKaramazov]

My wife is an Assistant Principal for an elementary school. She spent 16 years as a teacher prior to going into admin plus we have a Freshman and Senior in High School this year.

I also have my sister, 2 in-laws and a few close friends that are teachers. I'm not in that world personally (accountant) but much of my life is effected by the local public education system.

Our area has the largest school district in Missouri (Springfield Public Schools) as well as several public districts of all sizes. My wife and kids are at the second largest in the area and honestly the most well run district around. They win numerous awards every year at the State and National level.

I believe what makes the district so successful is 2 key things:

1. Demographics - mostly middle to upper class families
2. Funding - the voters have not turned down a single bond/funding proposal in my lifetime. Buildings are newer and maintained and the student:teacher ratio is comfortable.

The district doesn't pay the best, but the quality of the teaching environment is pretty good compared to other districts. Also, the population is growing rapidly and the board is addressing the growth and planning 5-10-15-20 years ahead for the projected growth.

We've had a positive experience overall, but I've heard we are the exception.

Thanks for posting this. We live in a small (25K) town with a single high school, and both our kids went through that system. It was very good. Our teachers are not especially well-paid, but they seem to be high performers based on our observation (and the general opinion of our peer group). Our facilities are very good. And as you note, our people also do a good job looking ahead. Now admittedly, my town has fairly stable, predictable demographics when compared to a single district in a large city. But they've always been forward-looking, and our schools seem to be built or renovated slightly before they're needed.

With regard to points (1) and (2), I think a big part of it is having people who actually care about schooling, in the sense that it's truly a community priority. Because my town is so small, I know quite a few of our school board members through work or some other way. Without exception, our school board members are highly-competent people who are or were successful in their own careers. For example, the guy who served as our VP of Budget and Finance for a couple of decades retired and immediately ran for school board. I have absolutely no question about his ability to help oversee a public school system. I can't think of the last time we had a crackpot on the school board.

It's not that everything is great all the time. We hired a bad superintendent a few years ago, for example, but our board canned him two years later when it was clear that they had made a bad hire. If you have the right people, the funding will probably follow. But having the right people is a necessary condition to make this work. I think it might be both necessary and sufficient.

 

[Cowboysfan8]

can't comment on their current state, but a few of those things were present way back when I went to public schools. Due to overcrowding we had to share lockers and a few classes were held in trailers on the school grounds.

Same here, and that was in the 80s

 

[belljr]

Combining all levels of government, the U.S. spends somewhere between $780-830 billion on education. Is the amount of money available really the problem?

I would assume great inefficiency like most programs but ignoring that it does seem to (naturally) correlate spending with results. The thing that jumps out at me about these stats is how much more some states are spending. North Carolina is pretty low on both lists.

https://educationdata.org/public-education-spending-statistics

Public School Rankings by State 2024

worldpopulationreview.com

More money doesn’t guarantee anything though.

ETA - I just googled and grabbed links. I’m taking the numbers at face value.

#3!!!!!

 

[Balco]

I looked and North Carolina seems to have teacher salaries set by the State which is odd. That’s definitely not how Michigan does it. Here in Michigan a teacher can leave for another district that offers more money. If you have a masters degree in NC, you have to work 5 years to finally hit $50,000. After 20 years, you haven’t even hit $60,000 yet. It’s pretty easy to see why there could be a teacher shortage there.

20 years and not even $60,000? That’s insane.

I live in Connecticut - teachers are compensated very well and Connecticut public schools are fantastic.

 

[Jayrod]

My wife is an Assistant Principal for an elementary school. She spent 16 years as a teacher prior to going into admin plus we have a Freshman and Senior in High School this year.

I also have my sister, 2 in-laws and a few close friends that are teachers. I'm not in that world personally (accountant) but much of my life is effected by the local public education system.

Our area has the largest school district in Missouri (Springfield Public Schools) as well as several public districts of all sizes. My wife and kids are at the second largest in the area and honestly the most well run district around. They win numerous awards every year at the State and National level.

I believe what makes the district so successful is 2 key things:

1. Demographics - mostly middle to upper class families
2. Funding - the voters have not turned down a single bond/funding proposal in my lifetime. Buildings are newer and maintained and the student:teacher ratio is comfortable.

The district doesn't pay the best, but the quality of the teaching environment is pretty good compared to other districts. Also, the population is growing rapidly and the board is addressing the growth and planning 5-10-15-20 years ahead for the projected growth.

We've had a positive experience overall, but I've heard we are the exception.

Thanks for posting this. We live in a small (25K) town with a single high school, and both our kids went through that system. It was very good. Our teachers are not especially well-paid, but they seem to be high performers based on our observation (and the general opinion of our peer group). Our facilities are very good. And as you note, our people also do a good job looking ahead. Now admittedly, my town has fairly stable, predictable demographics when compared to a single district in a large city. But they've always been forward-looking, and our schools seem to be built or renovated slightly before they're needed.

With regard to points (1) and (2), I think a big part of it is having people who actually care about schooling, in the sense that it's truly a community priority. Because my town is so small, I know quite a few of our school board members through work or some other way. Without exception, our school board members are highly-competent people who are or were successful in their own careers. For example, the guy who served as our VP of Budget and Finance for a couple of decades retired and immediately ran for school board. I have absolutely no question about his ability to help oversee a public school system. I can't think of the last time we had a crackpot on the school board.

It's not that everything is great all the time. We hired a bad superintendent a few years ago, for example, but our board canned him two years later when it was clear that they had made a bad hire. If you have the right people, the funding will probably follow. But having the right people is a necessary condition to make this work. I think it might be both necessary and sufficient.

Good point on hiring.

Our school had the same phenomenal Superintendant for like 15 years and the new guy hired 3 years ago has been fantastic as well.