QB Gradkowski Impressing HC Gruden (1 Viewer)

[Kevin Ashcraft]

From the FBGs News Blogger

June 26, 2006, 13:48

Buccaneers :: QB

HC Gruden Enamored With QB Gradkowski

Roy Cummings, TBO.com - Full Article[/url

Inside the walls at One Buc Place, the Bucs are talking like they may have snatched up a future star when they chose Toledo quarterback Bruce Gradkowski in the sixth round. "It's (The Bucs Offense) a very verbal system; there's a lot to say. But in a short time I've seen him makes leaps and gains in his performance. I think our players like him, too, and so we look forward to him leading our football team at some point." Gruden already is raving about his ability to pick up his scheme and make adjustments on the run.

 

[Warpig]

From the FBGs News Blogger

June 26, 2006, 13:48

Buccaneers :: QB

HC Gruden Enamored With QB Gradkowski

Roy Cummings, TBO.com - Full Article[/url

Inside the walls at One Buc Place, the Bucs are talking like they may have snatched up a future star when they chose Toledo quarterback Bruce Gradkowski in the sixth round. "It's (The Bucs Offense) a very verbal system; there's a lot to say. But in a short time I've seen him makes leaps and gains in his performance. I think our players like him, too, and so we look forward to him leading our football team at some point." Gruden already is raving about his ability to pick up his scheme and make adjustments on the run.

 

[houndirish]

For dynasty purposes, who does the shark pool like better? Gradkowski or Ingle Martin?

 

[Frenchy Fuqua]

Another QB from Western PA. The knock on Gradkowski has been size, that still may be an issue once he actually sees a pass rush.

 

[Sigmund Bloom]

Another QB from Western PA.  The knock on Gradkowski has been size, that still may be an issue once he actually sees a pass rush.

He's mobile and tough enough to handle that. Think Gannon/Garcia (he may not achieve the same level of success, but he has a similar style of play)

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

For dynasty purposes, who does the shark pool like better? Gradkowski or Ingle Martin?

Tough call.QB in GB is more valuable, and Martin can also punt so he may linger on the roster. With uncertainty with Rodgers, this preseason will tell a lot for Martin.

As for Gradkowski, at this moment he'd have to be considered the #2 option after Simms. Luke McCown went down with a knee injury and may be on the PUP soon. Jay Fiedler was down in TB to see about the #2 spot, so look for Gruden to add a journeyman for that spot.

They're neck and neck for me. Both will likely be rostered this year, but #2 is completely up in the air for both. I think Martin may get a shot more that Gradkowski next year, but Gradkowski has less competition. The argument against him is the offensive run and play defense game in TB, which lowers QB value.

 

[Magic Man]

If this guy looks like the #2 behind Simms, what happened to Rattay?

 

[Bob_Magaw]

baker suggested him in a league we are in even though we didn't have simms...

he didn't really need to twist my arm...

i think simms may not be nearly as entrenched as a lot of people think (you don't really have to read between the lines in this latest gruden quote)...

i was intrigued by the fact that gradowski has the PA state record in combined passing yards (or maybe it was top single season?)... if you think about how many great QBs have come from PA, that is like having the best marathon time to come from continent of africa in history...

 

[Capella]

For dynasty purposes, who does the shark pool like better?  Gradkowski or Ingle Martin?

Tough call.QB in GB is more valuable, and Martin can also punt so he may linger on the roster. With uncertainty with Rodgers, this preseason will tell a lot for Martin.

As for Gradkowski, at this moment he'd have to be considered the #2 option after Simms. Luke McCown went down with a knee injury and may be on the PUP soon. Jay Fiedler was down in TB to see about the #2 spot, so look for Gruden to add a journeyman for that spot.

They're neck and neck for me. Both will likely be rostered this year, but #2 is completely up in the air for both. I think Martin may get a shot more that Gradkowski next year, but Gradkowski has less competition. The argument against him is the offensive run and play defense game in TB, which lowers QB value.

Rattay is #2

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

Rattay is listed as #2, but as I stated earlier the Bucs are looking for someone better.

Fiedler was there last week.

If Gradkowski impresses, don't be surprised to see him as the 2, especially with Gruden's statements that he is picking up the complex offense at a rapid pace.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

I watch a ton of MAC games, MAC alum here. This kid has all the tools.

 

[Capella]

Rattay is listed as #2, but as I stated earlier the Bucs are looking for someone better.

Fiedler was there last week.

If Gradkowski impresses, don't be surprised to see him as the 2, especially with Gruden's statements that he is picking up the complex offense at a rapid pace.

Highly unlikely a rookie QB is going to end up the #2 for a playoff contender -- when there is a vet with game experience on the roster.

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

Sorry to steer the discussion to 06 - initially we were discussing dynasty values.

I am saying that he is closer to starting than many other rookies even this season. That's remarkable considering how little press he got on Draft Day.

 

[Football Jones]

"I think our players like him, too, and so we look forward to him leading our football team at some point" (Gruden talking about Gradkowski). That's a telling statement. Gradkowski & Gruden are a match made in heaven. I really liked him (Gradkowski) before the draft, but when the Bucs took Gradkowski, Simms' days as the starter were numbered, IMO.

I know it sounds odd to talk about a 6th round pick like that, but this cat can play ...& like I said, he went to the perfect team. I look for Gradkowski to win the job sometime in '07 (maybe opening week). The kid oozes intangibles.

 

[Frenchy Fuqua]

Gradkowski had an on-line diary in the local paper prior to the draft. It made for some interesting reading. Seems like a really good, family-oriented kid...but doesn't seem to be that bright.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/03001/678159-209.stm

 

[rabidfireweasel]

baker suggested him in a league we are in even though we didn't have simms...

he didn't really need to twist my arm...

i think simms may not be nearly as entrenched as a lot of people think (you don't really have to read between the lines in this latest gruden quote)...

i was intrigued by the fact that gradowski has the PA state record in combined passing yards (or maybe it was top single season?)... if you think about how many great QBs have come from PA, that is like having the best marathon time to come from continent of africa in history...

I think if you really read betweeb the lines Gruden is saying, "Chris Simms is an UFA after this year, and someone may offer him a ton of money to play elsewhere. If that happens, I will be prepared to say that Gradkowski is our man, maybe."Gruden does not say he sees him as a future star. The reporter states that Gruden is implying that.

 

[Bob_Magaw]

the guy who is saying we look forward to him leading our team at some point is the same guy who has a lot of say in whether simms is retained or not...

that decision is not pre-determined at this time... it has a lot to do with how gruden sees their respective talent... part of it (maybe large part) could be economic driven, but that doesn't preclude fact that gruden could opt to go in direction of gradowski in near future for non-monetary reasons...

your point is well taken, but i think the fact that simms hasn't already been locked up & gruden is willing to risk him getting away in free agency speaks to whether or not he is sold on him yet...

 

[rabidfireweasel]

your point is well taken, but i think the fact that simms hasn't already been locked up & gruden is willing to risk him getting away in free agency speaks to whether or not he is sold on him yet...

I think that you are doing some short sighted revisionist history. Simms was signed before the new deal, when he was a RFA and Tampa thought that they were going to be tight up against the cap. They made signing Simms a priority, before some other team made an offer they couldn't/wouldn't match. However, they did not have enough money to sign him long term. Simms gambled that he could sign with them for a year, play well, and get a big payday after the next CBA. I think that he will be proven correct.

 

[Bob_Magaw]

your point is well taken, but i think the fact that simms hasn't already been locked up & gruden is willing to risk him getting away in free agency speaks to whether or not he is sold on him yet...

I think that you are doing some short sighted revisionist history. Simms was signed before the new deal, when he was a RFA and Tampa thought that they were going to be tight up against the cap. They made signing Simms a priority, before some other team made an offer they couldn't/wouldn't match. However, they did not have enough money to sign him long term. Simms gambled that he could sign with them for a year, play well, and get a big payday after the next CBA. I think that he will be proven correct.

lots of teams have cap issues but still manage to prioritize signing their QB to a long term contract before he gets close to coming up for FA... if they think he is going to be an integral part of their future... i don't find that a revisionist take...* i see simms as a caretaker QB... he had 10 TDs in 10 games... if his most important job continues to be to hand the ball off to caddy, i wouldn't be so sure a lot of break the bank contracts are going to be forthcoming in 2007...

** how many other, current "great" QBs were handled in this way? (ie - when it came time to discuss a second contract, instead of long term deal, extend merely a one year tender)... is it possible another reason simms didn't sign for longer is the terms weren't favorable (you said yourself he thinks he can do better if he has a good season)... if that is the case, wouldn't that speak to how the team values him?

*** i got schooled on the recent history... backtracking in the blogger it sounded like condon would have asked for a huge signing bonus, that would fit your take (team couldn't afford long term contract due to cap ramifications, at that time in limbo as CBA extension hadn't yet been hammered out)... it still is an open question whether they would have paid what condon asked (& simms may think he is worth)... even if they had the money...

just like from gruden's words... without reading into them either reporter's take or our own potential slants... it is impossible to tell if gruden is referring to gradowski being leader of the future due to simms awing other teams during 2006 season leading to them breaking his door down to offer him monster contract/s... OR instead... could merely mean gruden doesn't see him as the guy that can lead them to the promised land, which he surely has aspirations to, having tasted it so recently... i'm guessing he has a pretty good idea of that constellation of attributes he is seeking out, in terms of intangibles, football IQ, leadership, athleticism, moxie... who is to say gruden maybe doesn't see gradkowski being "his kind of guy" more so than simms?

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Gradkowski probably won't see any playing time in meaningful games until the 2007 season at the earliest. He'll spend 2006 as the #3 developmental QB and then likely be given a chance to win the backup QB job.

I thought Simms took a couple steps in his development late last year and think he'll be the QB of the Bucs for awhile.

These comments sound like nothing more than coach-speak for "he's doing a good job so far and maybe the vets will work harder if they think someone is a threat to their job". He's an interesting prospect but there has to be some issues that caused him to drop to the 6th round. If the Bucs really thought he was capable of being their #2 QB this year and a potential starter in 2007 I think they would have burned a higher pick to get him rather than risk losing him by waiting until the draft was almost over.

 

[Bob_Magaw]

i agree it would be a long shot for gradkowski to see meaningful action this year... i think the original plan may even have been for him to be practice squad player... with simms, rattay & mccown being three QBs... with mccown being down that sort of opened the door... but he will likely be QB3 this season...

next year could get interesting, though... i can see a scenario where condon thinks simms is worth more than they want to pay, leading to an impasse... they could end up ahead even if they settle for less than what they want ideally by going elsewhere... if that still happens to be more than TB offers...

we'll see next year... i'm sort of simms agnostic though i may sound down on him... he did have 4 TDs in last two regular season games, & i think was something like 25-38 in playoff game against redskins (which they could easily have won but the sean taylor FR TD return was a killer)...

as to how they viewed gradkowski... again, i think he was viewed as long term developmental guy... some reasons he wasn't coveted could have been level of competition concerns (toledo?)... though MAC QBs have done well in recent years... pennington before shoulder problems, leftwich, rothlisberger, frye... he didn't have elite measureables (less than ideal height & size as i recall, may not have great speed or cannon for arm)...

but with mccown injury that timetable could be accelerated... it is possible their opinion of him could change through seeing him up close... maybe they did undervalue & underappreciate him based on film, but that could be subject to change if he impresses more in person... things like how well & quickly he picks up a pro offense may not have been evident from highlights... players also have variable rates of developement, capacity for taking to instruction, learning, understanding...

before gradkowski had been coached up by gruden... he hadn't yet been coached up by gruden... its possible he didn't look as good with lesser coaching... but if he responds well to gruden, shows a tendency to pick things up very quickly... these are some things that may not have been as apparent beforehand (causing him to be undervalued, by TB as well as everybody else) but could impress gruden AFTER the scouting evaluation process proper...

while not common, we wouldn't have to rack our brains too hard to think of day two QBs that excelled & far outperformed their draft slot-based expectations, & did far better than many QBs of higher pedigree with better measurables taken ahead of them...

one of the most interesting things about football is that it is so refractory to being boiled down to a science... it is as much art... big case in point is how intangibles, mental & character & personality traits (& thousand other things) can make or break a QBs career... will a QB panic when under withering pressure, or remain poised & composed? that is hard to tell from 7 on 7 drills, or even to project from college to pro...

the disparity in talent, speed, strength, athleticism of the defenders is no doubt huge (as is the complexity of pro offenses & defenses)... but i think that whatever the differences are, they are differences that play a critical difference in whether QBs make it or not... we have all seen many instances where QBs that had legendary prep exploits & storied college career... only to fall completely flat on their face at the last level... very hard sometimes (almost impossible in some cases) to tell in advance for which players the challenges presented by NFL game will be a threshold they are incapable of getting across and which proves insurmountable... and those that have "the right stuff" (whatever that is)...

the problem may extend further than scouts having imperfect understanding of the most important traits needed for QB to succeed... there is no one bluprint for success... many traits are needed, & being poor in some (if not too devestating) can be compensated for & overcome on a net, overall basis (not easy to categorize a kaleidoscope of potential & alternate psycholical profiles... i think the brain doctor dude may already be doing something like this, but the equivalent of a meirs-briggs typology would be better than nothing... it would be interesting to look at QBs with that lens (not just in a few isolated cases but wide scale)... ANY lens... from which a systematic body of thought could be built up on a principled basis...

i guess i have taken a lot of words to say that a good deal of why some QBs succeed & most fail has to do with, for lack of a better word, psychology... & that is a science not quite on a level of exactness as math, science, engineering...

a further issue would be, even if there was some kind of magical checklist scouts could tick off in the abstract... there might still remain the problem of IDENTIFYING which QB prospects had those traits, to what degree, how to measure (some traits elude written tests & even sophisticated meiers-briggs typologies)?

 

[Boone22]

i agree it would be a long shot for gradkowski to see meaningful action, blah, blah, blah

Why do Bob's posts make my brain hurt?

 

[rabidfireweasel]

your point is well taken, but i think the fact that simms hasn't already been locked up & gruden is willing to risk him getting away in free agency speaks to whether or not he is sold on him yet...

I think that you are doing some short sighted revisionist history. Simms was signed before the new deal, when he was a RFA and Tampa thought that they were going to be tight up against the cap. They made signing Simms a priority, before some other team made an offer they couldn't/wouldn't match. However, they did not have enough money to sign him long term. Simms gambled that he could sign with them for a year, play well, and get a big payday after the next CBA. I think that he will be proven correct.

lots of teams have cap issues but still manage to prioritize signing their QB to a long term contract before he gets close to coming up for FA... if they think he is going to be an integral part of their future... i don't find that a revisionist take...* i see simms as a caretaker QB... he had 10 TDs in 10 games... if his most important job continues to be to hand the ball off to caddy, i wouldn't be so sure a lot of break the bank contracts are going to be forthcoming in 2007...

** how many other, current "great" QBs were handled in this way? (ie - when it came time to discuss a second contract, instead of long term deal, extend merely a one year tender)... is it possible another reason simms didn't sign for longer is the terms weren't favorable (you said yourself he thinks he can do better if he has a good season)... if that is the case, wouldn't that speak to how the team values him?

*** i got schooled on the recent history... backtracking in the blogger it sounded like condon would have asked for a huge signing bonus, that would fit your take (team couldn't afford long term contract due to cap ramifications, at that time in limbo as CBA extension hadn't yet been hammered out)... it still is an open question whether they would have paid what condon asked (& simms may think he is worth)... even if they had the money...

just like from gruden's words... without reading into them either reporter's take or our own potential slants... it is impossible to tell if gruden is referring to gradowski being leader of the future due to simms awing other teams during 2006 season leading to them breaking his door down to offer him monster contract/s... OR instead... could merely mean gruden doesn't see him as the guy that can lead them to the promised land, which he surely has aspirations to, having tasted it so recently... i'm guessing he has a pretty good idea of that constellation of attributes he is seeking out, in terms of intangibles, football IQ, leadership, athleticism, moxie... who is to say gruden maybe doesn't see gradkowski being "his kind of guy" more so than simms?

These are fair points. However, I think that you are forgetting that you often cannot take Gruden literally. Gruden is always pushing Simms psychologically. Last year, he said roughly "I didn't bring Rattay in to hold a clipboard." and "Familiarity Wth my system doesn't matter. My wife knows my system and couldn't play QB." when asked about Ratay's chances for playing. Almost every "shark" here not in Tampa posterd things like, "Bump up the Tampa offense" and "What numbers will Rattay post with Gruden?" in the days following the trade. Only people like Capella and other TB homers said that Simms would keep the job barring a huge team meltdown. Rattay never saw the field and Simms is the unquestioned #1 going into this year.

 

[Godsbrother]

I really wanted the Steelers to take Gradkowski (home town boy & went to my alma mater Toledo) but instead they took Omar Jacobs.

Gradkowski put up some very nice numbers in Toledo but then again so did Jacobs in Bowling Green. Jacobs has the size so I guess that is what swung them.

 

[Warpig]

i agree it would be a long shot for gradkowski to see meaningful action, blah, blah, blah

Why do Bob's posts make my brain hurt?

They're like reading "Gone with the Wind".

 

[T Man]

It's late June. Gradkowski was just drafted.

What do you expect Gruden to say - "Boy, I blew that pick." He, like Parcells, plays mindgames. He feels he needs to PUSH Simms, and he probably feels he needs to be supportive of Gradkowski at this point.

Gradkowski is talented, and he could develop, but he is not the #2 on a playoff team. If the Bucs tank early maybe he get's some playing time. Otherwise look for Simms to play unless he get's hurt and a veteran to be the #2.

If Rattay, or whoever, plays horribly in relief, look for Gradkowski.

 

[Capella]

It's late June. Gradkowski was just drafted.

What do you expect Gruden to say - "Boy, I blew that pick." He, like Parcells, plays mindgames. He feels he needs to PUSH Simms, and he probably feels he needs to be supportive of Gradkowski at this point.

Gradkowski is talented, and he could develop, but he is not the #2 on a playoff team. If the Bucs tank early maybe he get's some playing time. Otherwise look for Simms to play unless he get's hurt and a veteran to be the #2.

If Rattay, or whoever, plays horribly in relief, look for Gradkowski.

I seriously cannot understand why everybody here reads so much into every little comment a coach makes.

 

[Dave Baker]

I've been high on Gradkowski for a while. He seems like Gruden guy if only for his intangibles and similarities in size, toughness, mobility and strength to Rich Gannon (who Gruden loved and molded into a star). The reasons he dropped are fairly simple: small school, lack of height and some history of hand and shoulder problems.

If not at Tampa Bay, I would not have liked Gradkowski so much. I have not been too impressed with Simms. Nor do I think that Rattay or McCown are the answer.

Gruden's recent quotes did not alter my opinion of Gradkowski's potential, it enforced it.

2006 for Gradkowski? Obviously a very minor chance. If Simms performs well, Gradkowski may never dress. But I don't think Gruden will hesitate too long if Simms proves not to be the answer. While Tampa Bay was 6-4 last year with Simms starting, they were 6-1 with Griese starting.

No, I don't like Gradkowski in 2006, but he's more than worthy of discussion in dynasty leagues. The situation and his natural fit seem to merit it.

 

[Bob_Magaw]

your point is well taken, but i think the fact that simms hasn't already been locked up & gruden is willing to risk him getting away in free agency speaks to whether or not he is sold on him yet...

I think that you are doing some short sighted revisionist history. Simms was signed before the new deal, when he was a RFA and Tampa thought that they were going to be tight up against the cap. They made signing Simms a priority, before some other team made an offer they couldn't/wouldn't match. However, they did not have enough money to sign him long term. Simms gambled that he could sign with them for a year, play well, and get a big payday after the next CBA. I think that he will be proven correct.

lots of teams have cap issues but still manage to prioritize signing their QB to a long term contract before he gets close to coming up for FA... if they think he is going to be an integral part of their future... i don't find that a revisionist take...* i see simms as a caretaker QB... he had 10 TDs in 10 games... if his most important job continues to be to hand the ball off to caddy, i wouldn't be so sure a lot of break the bank contracts are going to be forthcoming in 2007...

** how many other, current "great" QBs were handled in this way? (ie - when it came time to discuss a second contract, instead of long term deal, extend merely a one year tender)... is it possible another reason simms didn't sign for longer is the terms weren't favorable (you said yourself he thinks he can do better if he has a good season)... if that is the case, wouldn't that speak to how the team values him?

*** i got schooled on the recent history... backtracking in the blogger it sounded like condon would have asked for a huge signing bonus, that would fit your take (team couldn't afford long term contract due to cap ramifications, at that time in limbo as CBA extension hadn't yet been hammered out)... it still is an open question whether they would have paid what condon asked (& simms may think he is worth)... even if they had the money...

just like from gruden's words... without reading into them either reporter's take or our own potential slants... it is impossible to tell if gruden is referring to gradowski being leader of the future due to simms awing other teams during 2006 season leading to them breaking his door down to offer him monster contract/s... OR instead... could merely mean gruden doesn't see him as the guy that can lead them to the promised land, which he surely has aspirations to, having tasted it so recently... i'm guessing he has a pretty good idea of that constellation of attributes he is seeking out, in terms of intangibles, football IQ, leadership, athleticism, moxie... who is to say gruden maybe doesn't see gradkowski being "his kind of guy" more so than simms?

These are fair points. However, I think that you are forgetting that you often cannot take Gruden literally. Gruden is always pushing Simms psychologically. Last year, he said roughly "I didn't bring Rattay in to hold a clipboard." and "Familiarity Wth my system doesn't matter. My wife knows my system and couldn't play QB." when asked about Ratay's chances for playing. Almost every "shark" here not in Tampa posterd things like, "Bump up the Tampa offense" and "What numbers will Rattay post with Gruden?" in the days following the trade. Only people like Capella and other TB homers said that Simms would keep the job barring a huge team meltdown. Rattay never saw the field and Simms is the unquestioned #1 going into this year.

touche RFW,good point by you... i concur most of the time you are right... gruden does communicate that way a lot (as do a lot of HCs)... but there are also times where he may say to griese, this simms kid is breathing down your neck... than griese gets injured, simms plays OK, griese returns from injury & in off-season he is out of a job (not sure if they couldn't agree on price or he just wasn't in plans any more)... in retrospect, i'm not sure if that was motivational ploy at time, or he just changed his mind... it seems like if your name isn't rich gannon, gruden is a bit fickle (he obviously loves caddy & i don't hear comments about how HE has to pick it up... he seems to be selective in who he pushes & how... we can probably infer from this that he likes caddy a lot & barring injury, the starting RB gig is his for long time)... that is what we are trying to determine here... is it motivational ploy, or could it go down like when simms overtook griese in gruden's eyes... griese seems to have fallen out of favor with gruden... could that happen with simms... if not, on what basis would we think that it couldn't happen to him, or less strongly, that it isn't very likely? you may well be right, in which case i would be interested in why you think this case is different than when griese lost job...

sorry to others on length of some posts... a good rule of thumb is if you begin to go blind in the middle, it is probably time to have a pop tart or something & take a break...

 

[Dave Baker]

I'm really not sure if there is much of a need to try to read Gruden's mind here. Guys like Bloom, Magaw and myself have felt like Gradkowski was a perfect fit in Tampa for various reasons: 1. system needs; 2. situation (Simms not exactly world beater last year), and; 3. Gradkowski having similar feeling as player as did Gannon, who Gruden has always professed as being exactly the kind of QB he loves.

So when Gruden says that Gradkowski is doing very well, don't read too much into it other than enforcing what some of us might have known before - that Gradkowski has a reasonable chance to make an impact at some point with Tamba in the future.

From there, spin doctor all you want. Some of you might own Simms and instinctly repel any argument otherwise. Some of you might know little about Gradkowski and repel any notion that a 6th rounder could be worthy. And some of you might just be sick and tired of one little quote like this from Gruden blowing up into Gradkowski being acclaimed around there parts as the next Sammy Baugh.

But whatever you do, don't ignore the possibility suggested by people such as myself, Bloom and Magaw. We might all be wrong, although I don't think any of us are making outlandish statements. However, we also may be right.

 

[Capella]

I'm really not sure if there is much of a need to try to read Gruden's mind here. Guys like Bloom, Magaw and myself have felt like Gradkowski was a perfect fit in Tampa for various reasons: 1. system needs; 2. situation (Simms not exactly world beater last year), and; 3. Gradkowski having similar feeling as player as did Gannon, who Gruden has always professed as being exactly the kind of QB he loves.

So when Gruden says that Gradkowski is doing very well, don't read too much into it other than enforcing what some of us might have known before - that Gradkowski has a reasonable chance to make an impact at some point with Tamba in the future.

From there, spin doctor all you want. Some of you might own Simms and instinctly repel any argument otherwise. Some of you might know little about Gradkowski and repel any notion that a 6th rounder could be worthy. And some of you might just be sick and tired of one little quote like this from Gruden blowing up into Gradkowski being acclaimed around there parts as the next Sammy Baugh.

But whatever you do, don't ignore the possibility suggested by people such as myself, Bloom and Magaw. We might all be wrong, although I don't think any of us are making outlandish statements. However, we also may be right.

I don't "own Simms" or care about FF at all. I just follow the Bucs. I do find comments like this to be ridiculous though:

2. situation (Simms not exactly world beater last year),

Considering it was his first-year starting, he was thrust into it mid-season and he had no game experience except a few quarters beforehand, Simms played very well.

 

[Dave Baker]

I do find comments like this to be ridiculous though:

2. situation (Simms not exactly world beater last year),

Considering it was his first-year starting, he was thrust into it mid-season and he had no game experience except a few quarters beforehand, Simms played very well.

Simms played reasonably well, sure. I just didn't find him that impressive. Did you?To me, he seemed to make too many mistakes and fumbled too often. It could be because he was thrust into the situation and he could grow considerably. I don't happen to believe that's the case.

But it sounds like you're pretty high on him. Is that accurate?

 

[Capella]

I do find comments like this to be ridiculous though:

2. situation (Simms not exactly world beater last year),

Considering it was his first-year starting, he was thrust into it mid-season and he had no game experience except a few quarters beforehand, Simms played very well.

Simms played reasonably well, sure. I just didn't find him that impressive. Did you?To me, he seemed to make too many mistakes and fumbled too often. It could be because he was thrust into the situation and he could grow considerably. I don't happen to believe that's the case.

But it sounds like you're pretty high on him. Is that accurate?

Yeah, I'm pretty high on him. I think it's pretty obvious he's the QB of the future in Tampa.Boggles my mind that people think an undersized 6th-rounder who hasn't even played a preseason game yet is going to step in any time soon and take over for him. If Simms has any sort of a decent season in 06, he's going to be re-signed long-term.

 

[Dave Baker]

If Simms has any sort of a decent season in 06, he's going to be re-signed long-term.

This might be true. I just lack the confidence in Simms that you have.

 

[Sigmund Bloom]

Simms played reasonably well, sure.  I just didn't find him that impressive. 

Simms ran the plays as designed, but he rarely made anything happen on his own, and most of the plays only called for him to make one, maybe two reads and then check down to the RB/TE or throw the ball away. In fact, Simms got praise from the announcers for checking down or throwing the ball away instead of making a mistake. Simms is just not a quick thinker in the pocket, or the type of QB that can improvise and keep the play alive. He is adequate, he is competent, but barely more based on what ive seen. He could take a step forward, but he was in the incubator for over two years before making his debut, and he didnt make any huge strides once he got in last year that showed me he was "getting it" and just tapping into his potential.

All of this would make me pay attention to any QB the Bucs drafted, the fact that it was Gradkowski only heightens my interest in this situation. No need to beat it into the ground, but Gradkowski has an ideal style of play for a Gruden QB.

 

[Dave Baker]

I do find comments like this to be ridiculous though:

2. situation (Simms not exactly world beater last year),

Considering it was his first-year starting, he was thrust into it mid-season and he had no game experience except a few quarters beforehand, Simms played very well.

Simms played reasonably well, sure. I just didn't find him that impressive. Did you?But it sounds like you're pretty high on him. Is that accurate?

Yeah, I'm pretty high on him. I think it's pretty obvious he's the QB of the future in Tampa.Boggles my mind that people think an undersized 6th-rounder who hasn't even played a preseason game yet is going to step in any time soon and take over for him. If Simms has any sort of a decent season in 06, he's going to be re-signed long-term.

Like I said, I liked Gradkowski before he went to Tampa Bay but only if he fit into the right system. I think Tampa Bay is that system for him.I can appreicate your thoughts about how odd it might sound for anyone to believe that a 6th rounder could be the starting QB anytime soon. I would normally agree with you. People can jump up and down all they want about the Tom Bradys out there, but they'd be wrong in almost every other case. In this one instance, however, I happen to think that this a matter of the perfect fit for unheralded QB to make it work.

Reasonable productivity for Simms in 2006, though, make it all a moot point. The odds certainly favor your opinions on this and not mine.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

didn't someone like Ron Jaworski say he would rather have Chris Simms than Eli Manning to build around? I don't remember if it was really Ron or the exact quote but it was a pretty interesting take from someone whose opinion I respected (I think).

I thought Simms was terrible early in the year and wrote him off like many others, but he really impressed me down the stretch and in the playoffs.

 

[Bob_Magaw]

what if simms plays good but not great... but he & condon are under impression he played great... is there no chance that they may reach impasse over price, leading him to go elsewhere if he can make more money TB is unwilling to pay?

 

[Dave Baker]

...he really impressed me down the stretch and in the playoffs.

I didn't think he did well in their playoff game. His early interception led to the Skins first TD and his second INT at midfield ended the game for TB. He was 25/38 but only for 198 yards, Shepherd should have caught that last pass and it was a pretty throw, but the overall performance I thought was not very good.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

...he really impressed me down the stretch and in the playoffs.

I didn't think he did well in their playoff game. His early interception led to the Skins first TD and his second INT at midfield ended the game for TB. He was 25/38 but only for 198 yards, Shepherd should have caught that last pass and it was a pretty throw, but the overall performance I thought was not very good.

that Redskins defense also did a pretty good job of shutting down the Seahawks offense the following week. Shepherd catches that ball he should of and everybody thinks Simms is one of the better young QBs in the league right now. Was a great throw under pressure.

Simms is still a young QB who will make mistakes. He might not turn out to be that good, but he was better in 2005 than I expected him to be.

 

[Capella]

didn't someone like Ron Jaworski say he would rather have Chris Simms than Eli Manning to build around? I don't remember if it was really Ron or the exact quote but it was a pretty interesting take from someone whose opinion I respected (I think).

I thought Simms was terrible early in the year and wrote him off like many others, but he really impressed me down the stretch and in the playoffs.

Yes that was Jaws.Simms was terrible in his first game (against SF no less), but I thought he played as well as you could expect a first-year QB to play the rest of the year.

Why don't people acknowledge the fact that he was a first-year QB out there last season? Seems like everybody treats him as a 3-year starter, rather than a two-year backup who was learning, then stepped in last year.

 

[Dave Baker]

Why don't people acknowledge the fact that he was a first-year QB out there last season? Seems like everybody treats him as a 3-year starter, rather than a two-year backup who was learning, then stepped in last year.

Guilty. Not only that, but he didn't have a camp and preseason as #1 to make the proper adjustments. Point taken.I think I never thought too highly of Simms anyway and saw little to change my mind.

 

[Football Jones]

I don't know exactly when it will happen...or how it will happen, but I'll bet a dollar to a donut Gradkowski will become the Bucs' full-time starter sometime before the end of the '08 season.

 

[Bob_Magaw]

i think that an important thing that can come from this discussion is that simms owners in dynasty leagues who may have been asking themselves the question... if gradkowski is avail & relatively cheap (either in draft or trade), is it smart insurance or a wasted pick (trade) & unnecessary... now will have more grist for the judgement forming & decision making mill.

a good thing for simms owners is that in some of the scenarios that would involve him leaving TB next year, they could be favorable & presumably stem from him getting paid & starting gig elsewhere... that could also make gradkowski more valuable in year or two (though gruden could bring in other QBs in future via draft &/or FA, so no guarantees there even if simms moves on)...

i sometimes speak from memory... the couple of games at end where he seemed improved may not have stood out as much in my mind as the rocky-blah beginning (as aaron alluded to)... he did look better last month or so, which is what you would like to see in first year starter... a progression, & incremental improvement...

defenses may have more of a book on him, & will have time to devise schemes & game plan for him... a plus is OL hasn't always been strong suit in past few years, & joseph & trueblood could comprise a nice rebuilt right side of the OL... both for power running caddy & pass pro for simms... this could benefit gradkowski, too...

i think a lot of people realize that simms was first year starter, part year at that... on the other hand, it wasn't situation like elway & aikman getting thrown to the wolves... he had almost two & a half seasons to prepare for that moment... to get into a fuller accounting & reckoning of where he stands, it would be instructive to look at how other similarly positioned QBs fared with approx same grooming, opportunity, etc... case studies where variables are as close as we can find to this one would be fairer apples to apples comparison... did mcnair sit for one or two seasons? how about mcnabb (one season?)... c-pepp was one i think (?)... palmer only sat one & did far better...

nobody is comparing simms to palmer... & i don't think many think he is terrible & one of worst in league... imo, a fair question (at this stage of his development) is whether he is a good-potentially very good QB... or is he mediocre & marginal... if former, he has to be more likely to become entrenched in TB or get chance elsewhere... if latter, his future is much more cloudy...

i try & not let rooting interest type of factors enter into process that is for me (& i think nearly everybody in shark pool, which is why it is such a great place & storehouse of information, & more importantly, understanding) based on attempt to impartially weigh facts at hand, opinions of others... but since i brought it up, i partially built one dynasty team around caddy in the offseason, so i hope simms can do well for selfish reasons...

i often have strong impressions about certain players... say RBs & LBs... early on, where i think i can tell a lot about how they move, in a way that i think helps me project how their physical traits will project into pros... QB is a little harder to do that (though cutler's traits really stood out for me & played big role in my liking him)... some of the traits mentioned earlier like being composed in face of rush, recognizing defenses, taking what the defense gives you & not forcing the issue, patience, calmness, being charismatic & inspiring teammates, processing information & going through reads & projections quickly, innate timing to hit WRs out of their breaks, etc... these kind of things are clearly more subtle than seeing whether bob "hitman" sanders is a monster hitting dude...

so for some of these reasons, i went into this process having a certain impression, but not one that was so strong as to not amenable to revising... there are many times when something somebody says here gets me to rethink a position, later incorporate some new insight i learned from another, or even completely transform how i look at somebody (that more rare )...

so this has been an interesting discussion... i don't know of capella (except by reputation as well informed, trustworthy & authoritative bucs homer) as much as aaron... but i respect aaron's take on many things, & some of things RFW & capella have also said have led me to rethink things...

my dilemna is that i also respect gringo & bloom a lot, too... & they have a different take that doesn't easily mash together with the pro contingent.

 

[Frenchy Fuqua]

One more mouth to feed in TB. From the Pewter Report:

Bucs Agree To Terms On A One-Year Deal With FiedlerBy: Jim Flynn and Scott ReynoldsJune 29, 2006 12:20PM EST--------------------------------------------------------------------------------The Buccaneers agreed to terms on a one-year contract with free agent quarterback Jay Fiedler Thursday afternoon, PewterReport.com is reporting. Terms of the deal were not disclosed. Fiedler, 34, has produced a 37-23 record as a starter during his 12-year career. The 6-foot-2, 225-pound Fiedler gives the Bucs a veteran quarterback to fill the void left by injured signal caller Luke McCown and to compete with Tim Rattay and Bruce Gradkowski for the backup job behind starter Chris Simms.

 

[MLBrandow]

I don't know exactly when it will happen...or how it will happen, but I'll bet a dollar to a donut Gradkowski will become the Bucs' full-time starter sometime before the end of the '08 season.

I'll take your wager because you're a fool.Simms is by far the starter and will be for the next decade.

Gman is being groomed as the forever backup. You know this guy, Jon Gruden? Yeah, he says this about every QB that walks within a 100 mile radius of the compound. And he signs the ones that can't escape his gravitational pull.

 

[Enraged Nerfball]

The thing to remember about Gruden is his emphasis on promoting competition, even at positions where he has seasoned starters. The drafting of Gradkowski is just that. It's not an indictment of Simms. His mantra seems to be let them compete and let the chips fall where they may. That being said, I think he has warmed to Simms over the last few years, especially the last half of the last year. For the forseeable future, Simms is the man.

 

[rabidfireweasel]

i often have strong impressions about certain players... say RBs & LBs... early on, where i think i can tell a lot about how they move, in a way that i think helps me project how their physical traits will project into pros... QB is a little harder to do that (though cutler's traits really stood out for me & played big role in my liking him)... some of the traits mentioned earlier like being composed in face of rush, recognizing defenses, taking what the defense gives you & not forcing the issue, patience, calmness, being charismatic & inspiring teammates, processing information & going through reads & projections quickly, innate timing to hit WRs out of their breaks, etc... these kind of things are clearly more subtle than seeing whether bob "hitman" sanders is a monster hitting dude...

so for some of these reasons, i went into this process having a certain impression, but not one that was so strong as to not amenable to revising... there are many times when something somebody says here gets me to rethink a position, later incorporate some new insight i learned from another, or even completely transform how i look at somebody (that more rare )...

This is why it worth having a conversation with you. A person needs to be very, very smart or very, very dumb to be unwilling to change there opinion. As a side note, I think a bunch of people made up their minds about Simms when he was at Texas. They have decided from his OK games and bowl games that he was a loser. A lot of good QB's weren't national champs in college and struggled initially in the pros. Aikman was almost benched for Steve Walsh. Fouts stunk. Bradshaw stunk. McNabb wasn'r good at first. Plunkett struggled until he got to Oakland. Gannon wandered around for an enternity. Trent Green lost several jobs. Hasselbeck lost his job to Dilfer. The lsit goes on and on. It takes awhile for most players to figure out the QB position. Simms made strides in that direction last year, and it was apparent to anyone who would look.

 

[Football Jones]

I don't know exactly when it will happen...or how it will happen, but I'll bet a dollar to a donut Gradkowski will become the Bucs' full-time starter sometime before the end of the '08 season.

I'll take your wager because you're a fool.Simms is by far the starter and will be for the next decade.

Gman is being groomed as the forever backup. You know this guy, Jon Gruden? Yeah, he says this about every QB that walks within a 100 mile radius of the compound. And he signs the ones that can't escape his gravitational pull.

I'm a fool because you disagree with me? LOL. Simms will be the starter for the next decade? And you think I'm a fool for prognosticating Simms' future? Come on, guy. Actually, It's not so much that Simms sucks. I happen to think he can be a decent QB (but that's his ceiling, IMO). In short, I believe Gradkowski will be a better QB, thus, he'll beat out Simms sooner or later. Make no mistake, Gruden will go with his best option.

Again, I don't know exactly when or how it will happen, but Gradkowski will be the full-time starter before the end of the '08 season. Yeah, that's what I'm sayin'.

 

[Football Jones]

i often have strong impressions about certain players... say RBs & LBs... early on, where i think i can tell a lot about how they move, in a way that i think helps me project how their physical traits will project into pros... QB is a little harder to do that (though cutler's traits really stood out for me & played big role in my liking him)... some of the traits mentioned earlier like being composed in face of rush, recognizing defenses, taking what the defense gives you & not forcing the issue, patience, calmness, being charismatic & inspiring teammates, processing information & going through reads & projections quickly, innate timing to hit WRs out of their breaks, etc... these kind of things are clearly more subtle than seeing whether bob "hitman" sanders is a monster hitting dude...

so for some of these reasons, i went into this process having a certain impression, but not one that was so strong as to not amenable to revising... there are many times when something somebody says here gets me to rethink a position, later incorporate some new insight i learned from another, or even completely transform how i look at somebody (that more rare )...

This is why it worth having a conversation with you. A person needs to be very, very smart or very, very dumb to be unwilling to change there opinion. As a side note, I think a bunch of people made up their minds about Simms when he was at Texas. They have decided from his OK games and bowl games that he was a loser. A lot of good QB's weren't national champs in college and struggled initially in the pros. Aikman was almost benched for Steve Walsh. Fouts stunk. Bradshaw stunk. McNabb wasn'r good at first. Plunkett struggled until he got to Oakland. Gannon wandered around for an enternity. Trent Green lost several jobs. Hasselbeck lost his job to Dilfer. The lsit goes on and on. It takes awhile for most players to figure out the QB position. Simms made strides in that direction last year, and it was apparent to anyone who would look.

Personally, other than evaluating Simms when he first came out (for rookie drafts), I really don't care how he played at Texas. What I do care about is his play as a pro. Like I said in my previous post, I think Simms can be a decent QB. However, Gradkowski will be better, IMO. Therefore, for me, it's not so much about Simms' ability, period, as it is his ability as it relates to Gradkowski's ability. And not only do I believe Gradkowski will be a better player, but he's also a better match for Gruden's style of play. A match made in heaven.