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QB Jameis Winston, NYG (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter massraider
- Start date
rdrouyn
Footballguy
He's not going to testify but not because he is guilty. His lawyer is probably going to recommend to settle. Having said that, if there are two rape cases out there you really gotta question is he worth the risk, even if he is technically not guilty.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
I posted an article from PFT, which your are quoting, but that isn't clear from the edit.What is your question?
I wouldn't go as far as phrasing it like you did. Reportedly, the investigation on the part of the school and police was characterized as less than thorough. If true, it does beg the question, why?
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Stealthycat
Footballguy
because his choices are so exceptionally poor and based on what I've read ... I hope he doesn't get drafted
he will .... but its a crying damn shame someone who seems to be talented is also such a worthless person
like quite a few professional athletes we've seen - and only when the NFL starts weeding these thugs out will it maybe matter
he will .... but its a crying damn shame someone who seems to be talented is also such a worthless person
like quite a few professional athletes we've seen - and only when the NFL starts weeding these thugs out will it maybe matter
cstu
Footballguy
werdnoynek
Footballguy
Thank goodness there's only 2 weeks left until the draft. Everything has been regurgitated over and over in here so much it's starting to feel like Groundhog Day. At least the haters will have more to talk about once the draft has come and gone... we can hope.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
Is a second alleged rape victim a "regurgitation"?
If not, suggesting teams may want to vet him even more thoroughly in the wake of this latest accusation doesn't make somebody a "hater".
Or don't vet him, according to the team, maybe just ignore it and pretend the accusation never happened?
* I wouldn't say I'd take Winston off my board, but if I had the 1.1, and Mariota was an option, it would be hard for me to justify taking Winston with so many character red flags and off field question marks. That is probably a career decision for the GM and HC (and I realize that works both ways, if Mariota busts and/or Winston becomes a star). Obviously teams and the individuals that comprise them vary in their risk aversion/tolerance profile, and their different choices will reflect that. Again, it doesn't make somebody a "hater" (any more than liking him makes one a cheerleader or a Pollyanna), it could just be due to a legit cause for a difference of opinion.
If not, suggesting teams may want to vet him even more thoroughly in the wake of this latest accusation doesn't make somebody a "hater".
Or don't vet him, according to the team, maybe just ignore it and pretend the accusation never happened?
* I wouldn't say I'd take Winston off my board, but if I had the 1.1, and Mariota was an option, it would be hard for me to justify taking Winston with so many character red flags and off field question marks. That is probably a career decision for the GM and HC (and I realize that works both ways, if Mariota busts and/or Winston becomes a star). Obviously teams and the individuals that comprise them vary in their risk aversion/tolerance profile, and their different choices will reflect that. Again, it doesn't make somebody a "hater" (any more than liking him makes one a cheerleader or a Pollyanna), it could just be due to a legit cause for a difference of opinion.
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werdnoynek
Footballguy
Yes the second alleged mystery victim is old news.
Regurgitated and starting to stink.
cstu
Footballguy
What are you waiting for - you need to get this 'regurgitated' information to the Circuit Court of the Ninth Judicial District, stat!
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Bob Magaw
Footballguy
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/04/16/bucs-say-lawsuit-doesnt-affect-draft-plans/
"Implicit in the information from Cummings is the notion that no portion of the lawsuit will change their plans, including the contention at paragraph 13 that “a second woman had come forward and reported being sexually assaulted by Winston.” Which implies that the Buccaneers knew about the second allegation, and that they properly studied it in reach the point at which the filing of the lawsuit won’t impact their draft plans."
The excerpt was the relevant part that caused me to think that this might not have been widely disseminated. I don't get specific Winston or TB news pushes, so it was news to me (one reason I phrased it *IF* in post #1546). I find two rape allegations more ominous than one, don't know if being concerned about that makes one a "hater".
Incidentally, are you saying you have zero concerns either rape occurred? A non-zero possibility? If the latter, fraction of 1%, higher?
*If you don't care to discuss regurgitated news, that is fine, too. Just curious, if that isn't the case.
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Bob Magaw
Footballguy
So, it would seem it is news that the second party is now making a rape allegation.
Just because you follow a team more closely (or don't want to hear bad news) doesn't mean it isn't news to others.
* Again, I wasn't sure if this had been widely disseminated based on the wording of the PFT article, thus the use of the word *IF* in post #1546. I never assume everybody knows everything, or reads every post in every thread.
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Capella
Footballguy
I haven't seen anything that said this woman is claiming rape.It's only news to you now because you are coming to the story late.
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Proust Loves Cake
Footballguy
Sometimes rape victims are initially reluctant to acknowledge that what transpired was rape. There is a well established literature explaining this behavior if you care.
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Bob Magaw
Footballguy
From post #1563
"Implicit in the information from Cummings is the notion that no portion of the lawsuit will change their plans, including the contention at paragraph 13 that “a second woman had come forward and reported being sexually assaulted by Winston.” Which implies that the Buccaneers knew about the second allegation, and that they properly studied it in reach the point at which the filing of the lawsuit won’t impact their draft plans."
and especially in this passage...
“a second woman had come forward and reported being sexually assaulted by Winston.”
the words "come forward" seemed to refer to and connote something more present tense-ish, and not be referencing the remote, distant past.
Maybe that isn't the case, but perhaps you can see how that might lead to the interpretation of this being relatively "new".
* I'm not coming to the story late in the sense of just having heard about the alleged rape. That is how I heard the investigation was reportedly botched by the University and police. Plus it has kind of been in the news that the Bucs and other teams are digging into a checkered past. Possibly the alleged second victim hasn't been widely reported, or isn't as well known to others that don't follow the team as closely as you?
Again, do you assume everybody knows everything, and reads every post in every thread? My experience is this typically isn't the case. But maybe yours is different. If some people are interested in drafting Winston in fantasy football, but were unaware of some of these developements, do you think it is better to suppress discussion?
"Implicit in the information from Cummings is the notion that no portion of the lawsuit will change their plans, including the contention at paragraph 13 that “a second woman had come forward and reported being sexually assaulted by Winston.” Which implies that the Buccaneers knew about the second allegation, and that they properly studied it in reach the point at which the filing of the lawsuit won’t impact their draft plans."
and especially in this passage...
“a second woman had come forward and reported being sexually assaulted by Winston.”
the words "come forward" seemed to refer to and connote something more present tense-ish, and not be referencing the remote, distant past.
Maybe that isn't the case, but perhaps you can see how that might lead to the interpretation of this being relatively "new".
* I'm not coming to the story late in the sense of just having heard about the alleged rape. That is how I heard the investigation was reportedly botched by the University and police. Plus it has kind of been in the news that the Bucs and other teams are digging into a checkered past. Possibly the alleged second victim hasn't been widely reported, or isn't as well known to others that don't follow the team as closely as you?
Again, do you assume everybody knows everything, and reads every post in every thread? My experience is this typically isn't the case. But maybe yours is different. If some people are interested in drafting Winston in fantasy football, but were unaware of some of these developements, do you think it is better to suppress discussion?
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Capella
Footballguy
I am aware, but I still haven't seen anything stating she was raped. If that comes out, and it's a convincing story, my opinion on him will change.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
Capella, is this too many words dude?
“a second woman had come forward and reported being sexually assaulted by Winston.”
* Or this.
Do you assume everybody knows everything and reads every post in every thread. If *SOME* potential Winston fantasy owners don't follow the team as closely and didn't know about a second rape allegation, do you favor suppression of the information in the thread?
** I get that what is new to some may be old to you. If you find all this a tedious rehashing, maybe sit this discussion out? Why not let others discuss what they want to, and you can discuss what you want to?
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rdrouyn
Footballguy
That is not first hand information though, that is just part of the first rape accusation's case which claims she heard it from a FSU counselor. Not quite the same as a second rape accusation being made in a court.
If the second person comes out and does a formal accusation in court, then that changes things. Until then it is hearsay and speculation.
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Bob Magaw
Footballguy
When was the following first announced (if you are familiar with the story and timing)?
"a second woman had come forward and reported being sexually assaulted by Winston.”
I understand the legal distinction, but it sounds like at least two women (that we know about) have reported rape or some form of sexual assault, if I'm interpreting this correctly. Personally, that makes me even more uncormfortable than if there had been just one allegation. But maybe that is just me?
* Either I missed the below part, or that was added/edited in after my response. That makes it clearer.
"...which claims she heard it from a FSU counselor"
The phrase second woman had come forward was EARLIER ambiguous to me in this context.
Thank you for the clarification.
"a second woman had come forward and reported being sexually assaulted by Winston.”
I understand the legal distinction, but it sounds like at least two women (that we know about) have reported rape or some form of sexual assault, if I'm interpreting this correctly. Personally, that makes me even more uncormfortable than if there had been just one allegation. But maybe that is just me?
* Either I missed the below part, or that was added/edited in after my response. That makes it clearer.
"...which claims she heard it from a FSU counselor"
The phrase second woman had come forward was EARLIER ambiguous to me in this context.
Thank you for the clarification.
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cstu
Footballguy
This part has always bugged me.
She says she was being raped and Jameis dragged her into the bathroom because his roommate told him to stop.
Jameis says she asked to go into the bathroom because she didn't want the roommate watching.
What doesn't add up is that an hour after asking to have sex in the bathroom she's on the phone to the police saying she's been raped.
She says she was being raped and Jameis dragged her into the bathroom because his roommate told him to stop.
Jameis says she asked to go into the bathroom because she didn't want the roommate watching.
What doesn't add up is that an hour after asking to have sex in the bathroom she's on the phone to the police saying she's been raped.
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Bob Magaw
Footballguy
What percentage do stats suggest rape reports are accurate (92-96%)?
I don't know if there is an answer to the next question - in cases where there have been multiple rape or sexual assault reports (allegations) against a person, does it change the percentages, in other words, that at least one of the multiple reports are accurate?
* In the case of the second alleged victim, I should have used the descriptive term sexual assault instead of rape. It is an important legal (if not always moral) distinction that I'm sometimes neglectful of, and linguistically imprecise about.
I'd just like to add, we are getting close to the draft, and some people may have more interest in Winston at this time than before. I read something at PFT (about a second alleged sexual assault) which I didn't recall seeing before, so posted it here. I understand how this is old news and may be regurgitation to some. To others, encountering it for the first time, it isn't. Some may have looked into the evidence previously, and answered to their own satisfaction that the story was probably fabricated. I haven't come to that conclusion myself, but am in the process of learning more about the events in question, to make a more informed decision about the context within which to view the potential character red flags and off field risk. This strikes me as a legitimate subject for discussion. I have generally followed along with Winston's story (including the seafood misadventure), but not read every post in every Winston and Bucs thread. I don't know where the evidence will lead or how I'll interpret these events after learning more about them.
But on the surface, it concerns me in general enough to want to find out more about it. Expressing concern (especially when there may be a second, sexual assault case in addition to the rape allegation), and describing WInston in terms other than zealously dogmatic approval needn't be interpreted as being a *HATER*. Again, that would be as lopsided as characterizing any hint of praise directed at Winston as a sign of turning a blind eye from trouble and automatically activating apologist mode and viewing him with fawning adulation. I just tend to naturally question complete, 100% innocence, if a potential latent pattern seemingly becomes manifest through multiple reports, but am open to having all the concerns evaporate with more information. Perhaps nothing happened? Twice? What could be the harm in exploring if anything wrong did or not, by further discussing the evidence, if nobody has an agenda? Even if some have already "made up their minds" that these earlier cases amount to nothing, everybody is different, and what satisfies some may not others. Why not let them come to their own conclusions, in their own way and time?
I don't know if there is an answer to the next question - in cases where there have been multiple rape or sexual assault reports (allegations) against a person, does it change the percentages, in other words, that at least one of the multiple reports are accurate?
* In the case of the second alleged victim, I should have used the descriptive term sexual assault instead of rape. It is an important legal (if not always moral) distinction that I'm sometimes neglectful of, and linguistically imprecise about.
I'd just like to add, we are getting close to the draft, and some people may have more interest in Winston at this time than before. I read something at PFT (about a second alleged sexual assault) which I didn't recall seeing before, so posted it here. I understand how this is old news and may be regurgitation to some. To others, encountering it for the first time, it isn't. Some may have looked into the evidence previously, and answered to their own satisfaction that the story was probably fabricated. I haven't come to that conclusion myself, but am in the process of learning more about the events in question, to make a more informed decision about the context within which to view the potential character red flags and off field risk. This strikes me as a legitimate subject for discussion. I have generally followed along with Winston's story (including the seafood misadventure), but not read every post in every Winston and Bucs thread. I don't know where the evidence will lead or how I'll interpret these events after learning more about them.
But on the surface, it concerns me in general enough to want to find out more about it. Expressing concern (especially when there may be a second, sexual assault case in addition to the rape allegation), and describing WInston in terms other than zealously dogmatic approval needn't be interpreted as being a *HATER*. Again, that would be as lopsided as characterizing any hint of praise directed at Winston as a sign of turning a blind eye from trouble and automatically activating apologist mode and viewing him with fawning adulation. I just tend to naturally question complete, 100% innocence, if a potential latent pattern seemingly becomes manifest through multiple reports, but am open to having all the concerns evaporate with more information. Perhaps nothing happened? Twice? What could be the harm in exploring if anything wrong did or not, by further discussing the evidence, if nobody has an agenda? Even if some have already "made up their minds" that these earlier cases amount to nothing, everybody is different, and what satisfies some may not others. Why not let them come to their own conclusions, in their own way and time?
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werdnoynek
Footballguy
I've already discussed this ad nauseum a few pages so. Hence regurgitation.
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Bob Magaw
Footballguy
Understood. Some people may have an expectation that a prerequisite to posting is having first committed to memory every post in a 32 page thread (1,500+ and counting). Sorry if being remiss on this has been the source of consternation. 
* Do you read every post in every thread you post in (including ones that are 30+ pages)? Have you ever discussed something in a thread that other people have already, without eliciting regurgitation complaints? And what does that have to do with calling people *HATERS* because they may have concerns not shared by you, just for thinking differently?
** I do think some criticism of Winston, unrelated to this (without being specific), has been over the top in the thread and unwarranted, from what parts I have read recently. Maybe don't tar everybody with the same brush? I'm starting to work backwards with your posts to get semi-caught up in the thread.
* Do you read every post in every thread you post in (including ones that are 30+ pages)? Have you ever discussed something in a thread that other people have already, without eliciting regurgitation complaints? And what does that have to do with calling people *HATERS* because they may have concerns not shared by you, just for thinking differently?
** I do think some criticism of Winston, unrelated to this (without being specific), has been over the top in the thread and unwarranted, from what parts I have read recently. Maybe don't tar everybody with the same brush? I'm starting to work backwards with your posts to get semi-caught up in the thread.
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werdnoynek
Footballguy
Here was something I thought was interesting with regard to rape accusations.Understood. Some people may have an expectation that a prerequisite to posting is having first committed to memory every post in a 32 page thread (1,500+ and counting). Sorry if being remiss on this has been the source of consternation.
* Do you read every post in every thread you post in (including ones that are 30+ pages)? Have you ever discussed something in a thread that other people have already, without eliciting regurgitation complaints? And what does that have to do with calling people *HATERS* because they may have concerns not shared by you, just for thinking differently?
https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?/topic/706195-jameis-winston-merrill-hoge-hates-him-bucs-fans-celebrate/?p=17927202
ETA: I don't expect people to read the entire thread and I hope they don't expect me to repeat myself over and over like some are happy to do in here. It's tiring and unflattering.
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Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Honestly I'd like to see more players take that route. (assuming they'll all let cameras into their homes) It's would actually be more entertaining to see friends and family jumping around and celebrating than just see the prospect hug Goodell on stage - at any rate it will be nice to see a mixture of both things. The interviews can still take place either way (even if its by phone).
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
In a civil suit he probably will since the burden of proof is far less stringent. A civil plaintiff only needs to show a "preponderance of the evidence" that makes their claim likely (51% is good enough) so a defense is much more important. In a criminal case the burden is 100% on the prosecution to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" - so not only does the defendant not testify usually, but in some cases a defense attorney may just rest after the prosecution presents its case and not present a defense at all.
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Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I am not familiar with Florida state civil law, but the amount that you quoted is likely just merely the threshold to get jurisdiction in that court. It's meaningless and not what the plaintiff is seeking hence the "greater than" part.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
Legal allegation stuff aside for a moment:
The not being at the draft argument isn't substantive or to be taken seriously, imo. Reportedly his Grandmother is extremely important to him, has diabetes and can't travel easily or at all. I don't see the need to invoke grassy knolls when it isn't necessary.
As to INTs, I think Matt Ryan had a similar amount to Winston in his final campaign, and he turned out OK.
A skeleton key to NFL success (in addition to talent, work ethic, professionalism, being detail oriented, passion for the game, desire to be great, etc.) is coachability. It sounds like he is a student of the game. He can be taught to be more careful with the ball (not that they probably would want to completely "overwrite" or strip away his gun slinger fearlessness to throw downfield - that can be a very positive attribute when properly harnessed).
The not being at the draft argument isn't substantive or to be taken seriously, imo. Reportedly his Grandmother is extremely important to him, has diabetes and can't travel easily or at all. I don't see the need to invoke grassy knolls when it isn't necessary.
As to INTs, I think Matt Ryan had a similar amount to Winston in his final campaign, and he turned out OK.
A skeleton key to NFL success (in addition to talent, work ethic, professionalism, being detail oriented, passion for the game, desire to be great, etc.) is coachability. It sounds like he is a student of the game. He can be taught to be more careful with the ball (not that they probably would want to completely "overwrite" or strip away his gun slinger fearlessness to throw downfield - that can be a very positive attribute when properly harnessed).
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mr roboto
Footballguy
If this was her motive she's costing herself money by potentially causing Jameis to slide. If this was a BS money grab she should have waited until after the draft.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
dhockster
Footballguy
I heard an attorney this morning and this is exactly right. She had to say whether the damages she was seeking was greater or less than $15,000. She said greater. Now she could be seeking $20,000 or she could be seeking $2,000.000, or some other amount. That is not known yet.
cstu
Footballguy
I seem to recall reading her original attorney (also her aunt) proposing a settlement of $7M.
cstu
Footballguy
Capella
Footballguy
Yes and nothing they have done has been meant to defame Winston
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cstu
Footballguy
God forbid someone defame a rapist.Yes and nothing they have done has been meant to defame Winston
Quite possibly. I do find myself wondering where the $7M figure came from. Do you think Cornwell just pulled it straight out of his backside?
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Capella
Footballguy
werdnoynek
Footballguy
Prove it.God forbid someone defame a rapist.Yes and nothing they have done has been meant to defame Winston
A copy of what? Cornwell states the $7M offer was made during a meeting he had with Carroll.
He seems obsessed with Winston and did he ever post in the AP thread about the child abuse that was proven?Prove it.God forbid someone defame a rapist.Yes and nothing they have done has been meant to defame Winston
At this point he has a belief and that is fine but there is nothing a little bad mouthing in a fantasy football forum is going to do about him likely getting picked 1.01 in the NFL draft and being a week 1 starter for his NFL team.
He seems obsessed with Winston and did he ever post in the AP thread about the child abuse that was proven?Prove it.God forbid someone defame a rapist.Yes and nothing they have done has been meant to defame Winston
At this point he has a belief and that is fine but there is nothing a little bad mouthing in a fantasy football forum is going to do about him likely getting picked 1.01 in the NFL draft and being a week 1 starter for his NFL team.
Where there is any doubt, the sensible course of action is of course to side with the known criminal and misogynist with the history of inappropriate behavior toward women and an utter disregard for consequences.
Because you know, he might be on my football team some day.
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