QB Jameis Winston, NYG (2 Viewers)

[lod01]

Loving these posts because they mirror the comebacks of Schnikes and the Vince Young Homer. It's what they were reduced to. You just got there faster than they did.

 

[lod01]

Something for you guys to chew on: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2575680-jameis-winstons-continued-interception-problems-poses-a-concern-for-future-star

It's hard to compare Winston's early struggles to Manning's because he can't fall back on his college play. If he had excelled with ball security against college-level competition, it would be easier to suggest that this is simply a matter of adjusting to NFL defenses.

Pick #2

Not only does Winston make a terrible decision reading the coverage, his pass lacks velocity and arrives too far inside. This means that his intended receiver has no chance of touching the ball, while it's very easy for Norman to run through the ball on his way to the end zone.

This is the kind of error a quarterback who is billed as pro-ready shouldn't be making.

Passing the blame onto a teammate or something that the defense did can't be done here.

His teammates will start to get tired of his BS.

Pick #3

Although you can't completely blame him for that turnover, his elongated throwing motion will give defensive linemen more opportunities to read his intentions and rise up to tip balls out of the air. It was clear that was what happened on this play.



Winston can't blame his pass protection or his receivers. He threw from a clean pocket, and his receivers ran the right routes. He simply had a blind spot with the underneath coverage. This is the kind of throw that the quarterback can't consistently make.

If he is making this type of throw as often as he is, it won't matter how intelligent or accurate he can be.

So far it seems he's not understanding the mistakes he's making.

Winston is on pace for 28 interceptions this season, the same number Peyton Manning threw. He may one day play like a Hall of Famer, but it would be disingenuous to dismiss concerns about his long-term outlook based solely on what Manning did previously. Manning is/was the exception, not the rule.

 

[Old Smiley]

"He simply had a blind spot with the underneath coverage."

Again, this is what I kept hearing people (Cosell, Farrar, I think Jaws said it too) say in response to the "high football IQ" praise he was getting.

edit: 'What's fixable' is what I'm most interested to learn as a general football, college prospect, thing.

 

[Frostillicus]

Out of football in two years.

 

[Frostillicus]

Winston had as many picks last game as Jamarcus Russell did in his entire rookie year.

 

[Capella]

Winston had as many picks last game as Jamarcus Russell did in his entire rookie year.

Really makes you think

 

[Buck Bradcanon]

Winston had as many picks last game as Jamarcus Russell did in his entire rookie year.

Really makes you think

Poeple forget that

 

[rustycolts]

I am not a fan and was really hoping that Tampa would go in a different direction than the one they chose.But to say the guy will be out of the league in two years is just not realistic.He does have talent.Yes he may throw 28 interceptions this year but the best QB the Bucs ever had threw 24 of them his 2nd full year of starting.I am hoping he pans out and can at least be the caliber at QB Williams was.I was a little upset when they chose him and swore I wouldn't watch a game.Being a Buc fan for so long I'm used to the misery.Its kind of like smoking I know its bad for me but I just can't quit.So really hope he can adjust learn and succeed.

 

[cstu]

I am not a fan and was really hoping that Tampa would go in a different direction than the one they chose.But to say the guy will be out of the league in two years is just not realistic.He does have talent.Yes he may throw 28 interceptions this year but the best QB the Bucs ever had threw 24 of them his 2nd full year of starting.I am hoping he pans out and can at least be the caliber at QB Williams was.I was a little upset when they chose him and swore I wouldn't watch a game.Being a Buc fan for so long I'm used to the misery.Its kind of like smoking I know its bad for me but I just can't quit.So really hope he can adjust learn and succeed.

He's a NFL QB, but doesn't seem like he'll rise above guys like Cutler or Stafford. The arm talent alone will keep him in the league even with aggravating mistakes.

 

[addicted2ff]

Something for you guys to chew on: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2575680-jameis-winstons-continued-interception-problems-poses-a-concern-for-future-star

It's hard to compare Winston's early struggles to Manning's because he can't fall back on his college play. If he had excelled with ball security against college-level competition, it would be easier to suggest that this is simply a matter of adjusting to NFL defenses.

Pick #2

Not only does Winston make a terrible decision reading the coverage, his pass lacks velocity and arrives too far inside. This means that his intended receiver has no chance of touching the ball, while it's very easy for Norman to run through the ball on his way to the end zone.

This is the kind of error a quarterback who is billed as pro-ready shouldn't be making.

Passing the blame onto a teammate or something that the defense did can't be done here.

His teammates will start to get tired of his BS.

Pick #3

Although you can't completely blame him for that turnover, his elongated throwing motion will give defensive linemen more opportunities to read his intentions and rise up to tip balls out of the air. It was clear that was what happened on this play.



Winston can't blame his pass protection or his receivers. He threw from a clean pocket, and his receivers ran the right routes. He simply had a blind spot with the underneath coverage. This is the kind of throw that the quarterback can't consistently make.

If he is making this type of throw as often as he is, it won't matter how intelligent or accurate he can be.

So far it seems he's not understanding the mistakes he's making.

Winston is on pace for 28 interceptions this season, the same number Peyton Manning threw. He may one day play like a Hall of Famer, but it would be disingenuous to dismiss concerns about his long-term outlook based solely on what Manning did previously. Manning is/was the exception, not the rule.

Cian knows the truth.

 

[Grahamburn]

4 games in, guys. 4 games.

 

[cstu]

Jamarcus isn't a good comparison for anyone because he had psychological stuff going on.

He actually finished his second season strong after getting the starting job back from Walter - on a team without a lot of weapons.

The only way I see Winston following the same path is if the things start messing with his head (rape case, interceptions, losing, etc.).

 

[Henry Ford]

Something for you guys to chew on: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2575680-jameis-winstons-continued-interception-problems-poses-a-concern-for-future-star

It's hard to compare Winston's early struggles to Manning's because he can't fall back on his college play. If he had excelled with ball security against college-level competition, it would be easier to suggest that this is simply a matter of adjusting to NFL defenses.

Pick #2

Not only does Winston make a terrible decision reading the coverage, his pass lacks velocity and arrives too far inside. This means that his intended receiver has no chance of touching the ball, while it's very easy for Norman to run through the ball on his way to the end zone.

This is the kind of error a quarterback who is billed as pro-ready shouldn't be making.

Passing the blame onto a teammate or something that the defense did can't be done here.

His teammates will start to get tired of his BS.

Pick #3

Although you can't completely blame him for that turnover, his elongated throwing motion will give defensive linemen more opportunities to read his intentions and rise up to tip balls out of the air. It was clear that was what happened on this play.



Winston can't blame his pass protection or his receivers. He threw from a clean pocket, and his receivers ran the right routes. He simply had a blind spot with the underneath coverage. This is the kind of throw that the quarterback can't consistently make.

If he is making this type of throw as often as he is, it won't matter how intelligent or accurate he can be.

So far it seems he's not understanding the mistakes he's making.

Winston is on pace for 28 interceptions this season, the same number Peyton Manning threw. He may one day play like a Hall of Famer, but it would be disingenuous to dismiss concerns about his long-term outlook based solely on what Manning did previously. Manning is/was the exception, not the rule.

From the 2014 Matt Miller report on Winston:

Winston's delivery is slow. The time between when his brain tells him where to throw the football and when he releases the ball is too long. This longer delivery time—created by a slow setup of his arm and then a very long delivery—allows defenders to read and jump his throws. That creates defended passes and interceptions.

It killed Byron Leftwich, and it's not going to do Winston any favors until he corrects it.

 

[cstu]

From the 2014 Matt Miller report on Winston:

Winston's delivery is slow. The time between when his brain tells him where to throw the football and when he releases the ball is too long. This longer delivery time—created by a slow setup of his arm and then a very long delivery—allows defenders to read and jump his throws. That creates defended passes and interceptions.

It killed Byron Leftwich, and it's not going to do Winston any favors until he corrects it.

Not so easy to lose that baseball motion.

 

[Henry Ford]

From the 2014 Matt Miller report on Winston:

Winston's delivery is slow. The time between when his brain tells him where to throw the football and when he releases the ball is too long. This longer delivery time—created by a slow setup of his arm and then a very long delivery—allows defenders to read and jump his throws. That creates defended passes and interceptions.

It killed Byron Leftwich, and it's not going to do Winston any favors until he corrects it.

Not so easy to lose that baseball motion.

Agreed, but what else does he have to do all day? He's a pro football player. He should be spending hours every day on mechanics, minimum, until they get corrected.

 

[Old Smiley]

Cosell mentioned in passing recently that he sees where Winston has shortened his stride. But when I look at even the stills from the Fahey piece, his legs still look floppy and weird. (Not to say you can't look weird and be good cf. Rivers)

Again: What can you fix?

 

[Capella]

They have certainly fixed his throwing motion some. It was significantly loopier at fsu. Now it's much less of a windup.

His footwork looks worse now so that's weird. He ran all pro-style in college so I don't know where that came from.

 

[jurb26]

You don't fix a throwing motion in one offseason. You just don't. It may appear fixed at times but muscle memory is going to revert back and rear its ugly head at some point. It will take more time to fix his motion. The positive is that we've seen him throw the ball that way and there is no loss of zip and he's still able to make the throws. Many times when QBs try to change like that they lose something.

 

[addicted2ff]

Quarterbacks under Jimbo Fisher:

Jamarcus Russell - Bust

Christian Ponder - Bust

E.J. Manuel - Bust

Jameis Winston - ???

 

[jurb26]

Quarterbacks under Jimbo Fisher:

Jamarcus Russell - Bust

Christian Ponder - Bust

E.J. Manuel - Bust

Jameis Winston - ???

This is rather meaningless.

 

[addicted2ff]

Quarterbacks under Jimbo Fisher:

Jamarcus Russell - Bust

Christian Ponder - Bust

E.J. Manuel - Bust

Jameis Winston - ???

This is rather meaningless.

The Tampa Bay Buccaneers organization agrees.

 

[jurb26]

Quarterbacks under Jimbo Fisher:

Jamarcus Russell - Bust

Christian Ponder - Bust

E.J. Manuel - Bust

Jameis Winston - ???

This is rather meaningless.

The Tampa Bay Buccaneers organization agrees.

So does every NFL organization. They evaluate players own their own merits.

 

[addicted2ff]

Quarterbacks under Jimbo Fisher:

Jamarcus Russell - Bust

Christian Ponder - Bust

E.J. Manuel - Bust

Jameis Winston - ???

This is rather meaningless.

The Tampa Bay Buccaneers organization agrees.

So does every NFL organization. They evaluate players own their own merits.

I doubt that every organization ignores the fact that sometimes it's the system that makes the player.

 

[jurb26]

Quarterbacks under Jimbo Fisher:

Jamarcus Russell - Bust

Christian Ponder - Bust

E.J. Manuel - Bust

Jameis Winston - ???

This is rather meaningless.

The Tampa Bay Buccaneers organization agrees.

So does every NFL organization. They evaluate players own their own merits.

I doubt that every organization ignores the fact that sometimes it's the system that makes the player.

NFL evaluators are supposed to be good enough, trained enough and have enough resources to see beyond the system of any player. It may make for a harder evaluation but it's an evaluation of the PLAYER nontheless.

 

[addicted2ff]

Quarterbacks under Jimbo Fisher:

Jamarcus Russell - Bust

Christian Ponder - Bust

E.J. Manuel - Bust

Jameis Winston - ???

This is rather meaningless.

The Tampa Bay Buccaneers organization agrees.

So does every NFL organization. They evaluate players own their own merits.

I doubt that every organization ignores the fact that sometimes it's the system that makes the player.

NFL evaluators are supposed to be good enough, trained enough and have enough resources to see beyond the system of any player. It may make for a harder evaluation but it's an evaluation of the PLAYER nontheless.

Looks like their evaluation of Jimbo's players have been wrong so far. Maybe Jameis is finally the one they're going to get right

 

[VaTerp]

Quarterbacks under Jimbo Fisher:

Jamarcus Russell - Bust

Christian Ponder - Bust

E.J. Manuel - Bust

Jameis Winston - ???

This is rather meaningless.

The Tampa Bay Buccaneers organization agrees.

So does every NFL organization. They evaluate players own their own merits.

I doubt that every organization ignores the fact that sometimes it's the system that makes the player.

Yeah a bunch of teams probably looked at:

Trent Diler

Akili Smith

David Carr

Joey Harrington

Kyle Boller

and said its the system, these guys cant play. And then passed on:

Aaron Rodgers

 

[jurb26]

Quarterbacks under Jimbo Fisher:

Jamarcus Russell - Bust

Christian Ponder - Bust

E.J. Manuel - Bust

Jameis Winston - ???

This is rather meaningless.

The Tampa Bay Buccaneers organization agrees.

So does every NFL organization. They evaluate players own their own merits.

I doubt that every organization ignores the fact that sometimes it's the system that makes the player.

Yeah a bunch of teams probably looked at:

Trent Diler

Akili Smith

David Carr

Joey Harrington

Kyle Boller

and said its the system, these guys cant play. And then passed on:

Aaron Rodgers

Was just going to post this... Thanks.

 

[Henry Ford]

Quarterbacks under Jimbo Fisher:

Jamarcus Russell - Bust

Christian Ponder - Bust

E.J. Manuel - Bust

Jameis Winston - ???

To be fair, that's what they used to say about Tedford.

 

[addicted2ff]

Quarterbacks under Jimbo Fisher:

Jamarcus Russell - Bust

Christian Ponder - Bust

E.J. Manuel - Bust

Jameis Winston - ???

This is rather meaningless.

The Tampa Bay Buccaneers organization agrees.

So does every NFL organization. They evaluate players own their own merits.

I doubt that every organization ignores the fact that sometimes it's the system that makes the player.

Yeah a bunch of teams probably looked at:

Trent Diler

Akili Smith

David Carr

Joey Harrington

Kyle Boller

and said its the system, these guys cant play. And then passed on:

Aaron Rodgers

That's a good point.

Another good point is that organizations wasted 2-3 years on each prospect before finally hitting the lotto. Seems to me that maybe evaluators who evaluate QBs just aren't that good at it. Why not just play the odds and draft more mid-late round QBs and see if one of them pans out instead of spending a top 10 pick on a guy who is 80-90%+ likely to bust?

 

[Quez]

4 games in, guys. 4 games.

But he isn't learning from his mistakes!

 

[Capella]

Jimbo gets em paid. That's for sure. God bless.

 

[Raiderfan32904]

I heard a pretty harsh review on local radio this afternoon by Chris Landry on Winston. He didn't even attempt to sugar coat his outlook even though he's talking right at the Bucs fanbase. Said Winston's mechanics are a problem and can only be corrected with a major overhaul, not unlike pro golfers having to change their swing. Said that an 8 year old kid who throws a rock into a pond will use the same mechanics as he will as an adult throwing a fastball or a football. Doesn't give any optimism that Winston can correct his mistakes. He seems to have trouble reading underneath defenses, and his ball comes out too flat. This could be a long year for Bucs fans, and from what I'm seeing of Winston, the Jags DST might be a value play this week.

 

[TakiToki]

People are overthinking this thing. First ten snaps I saw of Tee Martin in the NFL, I knew that the kid had no shot to make it. And he retired with a 25.3 Passer Rating and 1.1 ANY/A.

Sometimes it's easy to tell, and you don't need 10k reps to see it.

 

[TwinTurbo]

You don't fix a throwing motion in one offseason. You just don't. It may appear fixed at times but muscle memory is going to revert back and rear its ugly head at some point. It will take more time to fix his motion. The positive is that we've seen him throw the ball that way and there is no loss of zip and he's still able to make the throws. Many times when QBs try to change like that they lose something.

I don't understand why some NFL teams continue to burn high draft picks on players that have to completely relearn how to do basic things like pass or catch. When you have repeated the same mistakes again and again, over several years, you build a muscle memory with those mistakes. And those mistakes are extremely difficult to overcome later because the movement gets made on a subconscious level.

 

[TwinTurbo]

Quarterbacks under Jimbo Fisher:

Jamarcus Russell - Bust

Christian Ponder - Bust

E.J. Manuel - Bust

Jameis Winston - ???

This is rather meaningless.

The Tampa Bay Buccaneers organization agrees.

So does every NFL organization. They evaluate players own their own merits.

I doubt that every organization ignores the fact that sometimes it's the system that makes the player.

Yeah a bunch of teams probably looked at:

Trent Diler

Akili Smith

David Carr

Joey Harrington

Kyle Boller

and said its the system, these guys cant play. And then passed on:

Aaron Rodgers

Rodgers might have ended up on that list if the Packers had passed on him too. Some teams are bad at developing players regardless of the system. Green Bay seems to be really good at it. Imagine if Cleveland or Tampa Bay had selected Rodgers. Who knows how that would have turned out.

 

[TakiToki]

It's like people forgot all about Reggie Collier.

 

[Frostillicus]

Quarterbacks under Jimbo Fisher:

Jamarcus Russell - Bust

Christian Ponder - Bust

E.J. Manuel - Bust

Jameis Winston - ???

Out of football in 2 years.

 

[addicted2ff]

Quarterbacks under Jimbo Fisher:

Jamarcus Russell - Bust

Christian Ponder - Bust

E.J. Manuel - Bust

Jameis Winston - ???

This is rather meaningless.

The Tampa Bay Buccaneers organization agrees.

So does every NFL organization. They evaluate players own their own merits.

I doubt that every organization ignores the fact that sometimes it's the system that makes the player.

Yeah a bunch of teams probably looked at:

Trent Diler

Akili Smith

David Carr

Joey Harrington

Kyle Boller

and said its the system, these guys cant play. And then passed on:

Aaron Rodgers

Rodgers might have ended up on that list if the Packers had passed on him too. Some teams are bad at developing players regardless of the system. Green Bay seems to be really good at it. Imagine if Cleveland or Tampa Bay had selected Rodgers. Who knows how that would have turned out.

Good point. Some organizations are better at developing QBs, some organizations are better at scouting QBs, and some college systems make QB prospects seem better than they really are.

 

[Frostillicus]

People are overthinking this thing. First ten snaps I saw of Tee Martin in the NFL, I knew that the kid had no shot to make it. And he retired with a 25.3 Passer Rating and 1.1 ANY/A.

Sometimes it's easy to tell, and you don't need 10k reps to see it.

Winston = Tee Martin?

 

[Manster]

He won be out of football in 2 years. He'll float around as a b/u because of his draft pedigree.

 

[Capella]

Out of football in 2 weeks.

 

[kOOk]

Is this the streaming Defense thread?

 

[Grahamburn]

Out of football in 2 weeks.

They do have a bye after Jacksonville.

 

[Buck Bradcanon]

Mike Evans will be healthier after the week 6 bye. The schedule is good and game scripts should allow for a lot of attempts. I still like his redraft value for as a bye week QB or in 2QB leagues. And yes, the INTs will no doubt continue.

Bucs OC Dirk Koetter said the team may use the no-huddle offense more to help rookie QB Jameis Winston.
"Jameis is definitely playing better in no-huddle," Koetter said. "We probably should be doing no-huddle more." Winston has just 93 yards on 14 attempts from the no-huddle this season, and the Bucs have run just 22 plays total without a huddle. Perhaps an emphasis on tempo will help the young quarterback, but Winston's history suggests the interceptions are not going away. Winston has thrown seven picks through four games including six in two home games. Oct 8 - 9:01 AM

 

[Omniscient Deity]

Is this the streaming Defense thread?

It might as well be. D/ST's are gold against Winston and this O-Line.

 

[bucsbaby]

For me the question isn't his physical ability or mechanics. He has the ability and the mechanics can be coached up over time. The bigger question is his mental makeup and whether he has (or can get soon enough) the professional character to become an elite QB. If he doesn't have it between the ears, he could easily be on the Josh Freeman trajectory.

 

[Capella]

For me the question isn't his physical ability or mechanics. He has the ability and the mechanics can be coached up over time. The bigger question is his mental makeup and whether he has (or can get soon enough) the professional character to become an elite QB. If he doesn't have it between the ears, he could easily be on the Josh Freeman trajectory.

Name me one unprofessional thing since early September 14 that he's done that would detract from him becoming an elite qb.

 

[Henry Ford]

For me the question isn't his physical ability or mechanics. He has the ability and the mechanics can be coached up over time. The bigger question is his mental makeup and whether he has (or can get soon enough) the professional character to become an elite QB. If he doesn't have it between the ears, he could easily be on the Josh Freeman trajectory.

Name me one unprofessional thing since early September 14 that he's done that would detract from him becoming an elite qb.

Name me one unprofessional thing Ryan Leaf has done since early September 14 that would detract from him being an elite qb.

 

[Grahamburn]

The "off field concerns" are irrelevant at this point. It's the avalanche of awful interceptions so far that are bothering me. The early pick 6 in both home games really sets the team up for failure.

I just want to see improvement from him every week. I imagine we'll see something a lot more like the New Orleans and Houston game plans this week where he looked pretty good on play action. Try to keep him under 30 throws.

 

[Manster]

For me the question isn't his physical ability or mechanics. He has the ability and the mechanics can be coached up over time. The bigger question is his mental makeup and whether he has (or can get soon enough) the professional character to become an elite QB. If he doesn't have it between the ears, he could easily be on the Josh Freeman trajectory.

Name me one unprofessional thing since early September 14 that he's done that would detract from him becoming an elite qb.

I think he was referring to being mentally tough in dealing with failing, and pulling out the other side......I could be wrong