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QB-RB-WR Strategy (1 Viewer)

mggoilers

Footballguy
Just completed a 12 team redraft, and ended up with the following players:

Jay Cutler

Travis Henry

Javon Walker

This was not intentional, it just turned out that way. I like each player to perform very well, but I realize this could cause problems if Denver has a bad day. I know if I owned Peyton-Addai-Harrison or Wayne, or the Cincy trio of Palmer-Rudi-85 this wouldn't be such a bad thing.

I waited on QB, and I believe Cutler will put up top 10 numbers. I believe Henry will be a beast and we get half point per carry. Javon was the best available WR on my board.

Any thoughts on this situation?

 
You know, I was thinking the same thing. I could be in a position to take both Henry and Walker. Cutler will go somewhere in the middle rounds and he may fall on my lap. I see no problem with it so long as cutler is not your #1.

 
Couple of years back I managed to draft a team with Bulger, Holt & SJax.

Bulger got hurt about halfway through the season.

The next week Holt got a knee injury, missed a few games & still wasn't himself when he returned + he had Martin & Ryan Fitzsucks trying to throw to him.

SJax got dinged in a couple of games & then once Bulger went down, opposing D's stacked 8 in the box & he had a pretty tough row to hoe.

Once bitten, twice shy.

I'll never go three distinct skill positions from the same team again. :lmao:

 
This is generally bad draft strategy unless the value was overwhelming compared so other available players at the time.

In fantasy you almost always want to minimize variance and then does the opposite. The only time you want to increase variance in fantasy is if the other team is better. For instance if you were in an 8-team playoff and had the 8 seed with a very poor team something like this would probably be your best bet.

Over the course of a season increased variance would only be useful for a team that was worse than most other teams to try to scratch out a few extra wins (which wouldn't do them much good anyway).

 
This is generally bad draft strategy unless the value was overwhelming compared so other available players at the time.

In fantasy you almost always want to minimize variance and then does the opposite. The only time you want to increase variance in fantasy is if the other team is better. For instance if you were in an 8-team playoff and had the 8 seed with a very poor team something like this would probably be your best bet.

Over the course of a season increased variance would only be useful for a team that was worse than most other teams to try to scratch out a few extra wins (which wouldn't do them much good anyway).
Ok, I agree this was not done on purpose and is not ideal. I picked 11th and Henry just fell to me in the 2nd round, and Walker was the best guy in the 4th round. QB's went quick, and there was value to be had in other areas so by the time the dust settled. It was Cutler in the 8th round, so I took him. Denver has a nice schedule, so I don't see it as a huge issue week to week. When you get past Manning, Palmer, Brees, Bulger, Brady...the QB's in the next tier are pretty even.

So, my guess would be...deal my QB?

 
The only time I've seen it work is when a guy in my league had Manning/Edge/Harrison. I think this was back in 1999 or so. It worked but he didn't win the league. I did with Kurt Warner, Albert Connell, Stephen Davis, back when nobody knew who they were. :rolleyes:

 
This is generally bad draft strategy unless the value was overwhelming compared so other available players at the time.

In fantasy you almost always want to minimize variance and then does the opposite. The only time you want to increase variance in fantasy is if the other team is better. For instance if you were in an 8-team playoff and had the 8 seed with a very poor team something like this would probably be your best bet.

Over the course of a season increased variance would only be useful for a team that was worse than most other teams to try to scratch out a few extra wins (which wouldn't do them much good anyway).
It's not clear that QB-RB-WR combos increase variance. QB-RB combos decrease variance, RB-WR combos are about neutral, and QB-WR combos increase variance. I expect when you get all three, that the variance will probably be about neutral.
 
This is generally bad draft strategy unless the value was overwhelming compared so other available players at the time.

In fantasy you almost always want to minimize variance and then does the opposite. The only time you want to increase variance in fantasy is if the other team is better. For instance if you were in an 8-team playoff and had the 8 seed with a very poor team something like this would probably be your best bet.

Over the course of a season increased variance would only be useful for a team that was worse than most other teams to try to scratch out a few extra wins (which wouldn't do them much good anyway).
It's not clear that QB-RB-WR combos increase variance. QB-RB combos decrease variance, RB-WR combos are about neutral, and QB-WR combos increase variance. I expect when you get all three, that the variance will probably be about neutral.
:unsure:
 
As much as I respect Doug (one of my favorite staffers), I simply disagree.

In a given week I can absolutely see it being fairly neutral overall. Over the course of a season there's simply no way it's variance neutral, imo. For starters, it's a fact, not an opinion, that your SoS variance will be much higher if your 3 key players are all on the same team.

Plus if an offense comes together or falls apart it can/will affect all 3 of said players in a non-independent manner. For instance, having the big 3 of the Colts back when they first got it together and blew up. You'd have a hard time convincing me that all 3 becoming uber-valuable in that scenario was no more likely than picking 3 players from different teams and having good fortune with each one.

 
In a total points league, it doesn't matter.

In a survivor league, you want that bye early, but it might be really bad if they were guys you were counting on heavily, otherwise it should be okay. A late bye is worse, less teams left to handle the hit.

Regular league: once you get to the playoffs, I'd hope that I would've dealt one of those guys, because if they aren't I'd be leery of playing one week with all of them possibly going cold.

 
Few years back when Peyton had his 49TD's I had him, Harrison, and James. They took me to the championship, where I lost because they all sat out at the end of the season.

 
Couple of years back I managed to draft a team with Bulger, Holt & SJax.Bulger got hurt about halfway through the season.The next week Holt got a knee injury, missed a few games & still wasn't himself when he returned + he had Martin & Ryan Fitzsucks trying to throw to him.SJax got dinged in a couple of games & then once Bulger went down, opposing D's stacked 8 in the box & he had a pretty tough row to hoe.Once bitten, twice shy. I'll never go three distinct skill positions from the same team again. :lol:
This is not a fair analogy. Injuries can happen to anybody. If you only had Holt for example, Bulger's injury would have affected him anyway. Or if you had only SJax, his numbers would be affetced regardless of whether you had Holt and/or Bulger or not. Having all three dinged was just a fluke. Would it be any different if you had Manning, Holt, and LT and they all got hurt?
 
In a total points league, it doesn't matter.In a survivor league, you want that bye early, but it might be really bad if they were guys you were counting on heavily, otherwise it should be okay. A late bye is worse, less teams left to handle the hit.Regular league: once you get to the playoffs, I'd hope that I would've dealt one of those guys, because if they aren't I'd be leery of playing one week with all of them possibly going cold.
I'm trying to deal Walker/player for an upgrade at WR. I feel I need to keep Henry, and as far as Cutler goes...we just drafted and he was the #12 QB off the board and he was picked 3 rounds after the last QB before him...so if I want to deal him it will have to wait.Thanks for all the input. I'm working on Walker/Turner for Steve Smith deal to the guy who owns LT...we'll see.
 
Last year in our keep 3 league, I had LT, Gates and Rivers. Plus my 2nd D was the Chargers. Top points scorer, but lost in the semis.

It is kind of feast/famine, but if you get them at value spots, go for it.

 
Cutler is my QB1, and Losman is my QB2...the alternative was Schaub, Leftwich and I preferred Losman in case of injury to Cutler even though they share the same bye week. Worst case scenario I go QBBC. I have no problem with either guy, and feel they will play well this year. I think lots of people don't like Cutler as a QB1, but I feel more comfortable with him as my QB and putting a solid RB/WR core in my lineup.

RB- Henry, Rudi, Benson

WR - Walker, Driver, Reggie Brown

 
This is generally bad draft strategy unless the value was overwhelming compared so other available players at the time.

In fantasy you almost always want to minimize variance and then does the opposite. The only time you want to increase variance in fantasy is if the other team is better. For instance if you were in an 8-team playoff and had the 8 seed with a very poor team something like this would probably be your best bet.

Over the course of a season increased variance would only be useful for a team that was worse than most other teams to try to scratch out a few extra wins (which wouldn't do them much good anyway).
It's not clear that QB-RB-WR combos increase variance. QB-RB combos decrease variance, RB-WR combos are about neutral, and QB-WR combos increase variance. I expect when you get all three, that the variance will probably be about neutral.
:thumbup:
Came here to post the links to the study, but I see it's been adequately covered already.Anyway, entirely without realizing it, I just wound up with S-Jax, Bulger, and Holt on the same team in a keeper league. S-Jax was a no-brainer keepers, Holt was the clear WR choice after Harrison, Wayne, Smiff, and Ocho Cinco were all off the board (I already owned TO in another league, and I have a strict 1-TO-per-season policy so he can't possibly ruin ALL of my teams), and Bulger was the last elite QB left in a league where having an elite QB is a much bigger advantage than normal. I actually wound up giving up high draft picks for all involved (my first three picks were Harrison, then Holt, then Bulger), but I don't regret it at all. Minimizing variance is a great idea in theory, but I'm far more concerned with getting the best players possible on my roster, and if I have to add a little bit of potential variance to do that, then so be it. If I have two players projected very closely, I'll use variance as a tiebreaker (such as Holt over Owens to minimize by team-by-team variance). If I have someone as head-and-shoulders above the others, you bet your butt I'm drafting him, variance-be-damned.

 
I'd be interested to hear opinions about my assertions about season-long variance.

Also, anecdotal evidence is rarely useful but it's even less useful in these situations. If anything all these "I had x, y, and z and made it to the championship" statements would only serve to prove that it is a high-variance, and therefore bad, strategy.

 
I'd be interested to hear opinions about my assertions about season-long variance.

Also, anecdotal evidence is rarely useful but it's even less useful in these situations. If anything all these "I had x, y, and z and made it to the championship" statements would only serve to prove that it is a high-variance, and therefore bad, strategy.
A study has been done, I think by Drinen, though I can't find it at the moment; it's not just anecdotal.
 
Not to be a broken record here but was the study specifically looking at season-long numbers or was it looking at weekly performances? One is extremely intuitive the other is not. I imagine you're saying he looked at season-long but I just want to make sure.

 
I'd be interested to hear opinions about my assertions about season-long variance.

Also, anecdotal evidence is rarely useful but it's even less useful in these situations. If anything all these "I had x, y, and z and made it to the championship" statements would only serve to prove that it is a high-variance, and therefore bad, strategy.
Minimizing variance is a great idea in theory, but I'm far more concerned with getting the best players possible on my roster, and if I have to add a little bit of potential variance to do that, then so be it.
Just because it's high-variance doesn't automatically mean it's a bad strategy. Now, taking someone you clearly consider an inferior player for no reason other than to minimize variance, now THAT is a bad strategy (unless you're in a keeper league or dynasty league where you're operating at such an overwhelming advantage that a monkey in a flight suit could win with your team). The simple fact is that, if everyone starts on a level playing field and everyone more or less knows what they're doing, you aren't going to have enough guns to worry more about minimizing variance than maximizing talent.I would humbly submit for your consideration a league composed of the 12 best fantasy footballers in the history of fantasy football. You claim that minimizing variance is a good strategy and maximizing variance is a bad strategy, but this is only the case if you have one of the better teams in the league- and in this hypothetical, 6 of these 12 gods of fantasy football are going to have a BELOW-AVERAGE roster, meaning the smarter play would be to maximize variance. Of course, every one of them is going to think they have an above-average roster until proven otherwise, so they're all going to be aiming at minimizing variance, but I would submit that, since 50% of them are going to be wrong, and since high-variance situations are currently being undervalued by that market, going low-variance is the real "bad strategy" here, whereas going balls-to-the-wall to maximize your variance is actually a very clever and strong play.

Long story short, if you are operating at a CLEAR talent advantage (either because you know you are a significantly better Fantasy Football player than your league-mates, giving you an "off-the-field" talent advantage, or because you're in a keeper/dynasty league and have accumulated a dominant roster, giving you an "on-the-field" talent advantage), then minimizing variance is the smart play and maximizing variance is the dumb play. If you are operating at a talent disadvantage, then maximizing variance is the smart play and minimizing variance is the dumb play. If you are operating at neither a talent advantage nor a talent disadvantage, then the smart play is to entirely disregard variance as a part of your draft strategy, since you have a 50% chance of being above average (and wanting to avoid variance) and a 50% chance of being below average (and wanting to seek out variance). In fact, if you operate in a league where the other 11 players are all convinced that they're the best and are seeking to avoid variance, you can often find great value in high-variance situations simply because they're being undervalued by the market as a whole. Most of the time, though, the "shark play" is to ignore variance and compile as much talent as you possibly can so that hopefully at some point you will be in one of those positions where you have a talent advantage and can worry about minimizing your variance.

One last point- note the emphasis when I say a CLEAR talent advantage. Every one of us overrates his own talent (both "on-the-field" and "off-the-field"), so if you think you have a talent advantage, odds are that you don't, so you shouldn't be seeking to avoid variance. Unless you KNOW that you have a CLEAR AND SIGNIFICANT talent advantage, then the odds are you cannot be trusted as an objective measure of your own talent or the talent of your leaguemates.

Besides, I find it hard to understand how you can say that the fact that so people have ridden this strategy to a championship proves it's a bad strategy. Isn't the goal to make it to a championship? Isn't any strategy that gets you there, therefore, a good strategy, because it accomplishes your goal? The goal isn't to make the playoffs every year and lose in the first round, is it? It's to win a championship- and as you said, this HIGH VARIANCE strategy apparently seems to have some success in that regard. Seems like a pretty good strategy to me- I'd rather have a 50% chance of being #1 and a 50% chance of being #12 than I would have a 100% chance of being #6 or #7.

 
Couple of years back I managed to draft a team with Bulger, Holt & SJax.Bulger got hurt about halfway through the season.The next week Holt got a knee injury, missed a few games & still wasn't himself when he returned + he had Martin & Ryan Fitzsucks trying to throw to him.SJax got dinged in a couple of games & then once Bulger went down, opposing D's stacked 8 in the box & he had a pretty tough row to hoe.Once bitten, twice shy. I'll never go three distinct skill positions from the same team again. :hophead:
This is not a fair analogy. Injuries can happen to anybody. If you only had Holt for example, Bulger's injury would have affected him anyway. Or if you had only SJax, his numbers would be affetced regardless of whether you had Holt and/or Bulger or not. Having all three dinged was just a fluke. Would it be any different if you had Manning, Holt, and LT and they all got hurt?
You are right that my particular case was an extreme example of just good old fashioned bad luck.But the point was really more about the starting QB going down & how that can impact the RB & WR positions. IMO, if going three skill position players from the same team, the key is the QB. If the starting QB were to go down, you better hope the 2nd string QB is a capable backup. Because if not, your point production at both the RB & WR position is likely to decline somewhat.
 
SSOG, for the most part I think you're spot on (save the last paragraph). I say minimize variance by making numerous assumptions and trying to be concise. Of course, it's not that simple.

In fact, I would say even in this hypothetical evenly-matched league high variance would beat low variance since the goal in fantasy is not generally to finish as high as possible, but is instead more of an all-or-nothing win it or don't.

Regardless I think most of us around here legitimately are at a clear advantage in many of our leagues. I'll grant that everyone overrates their ability, but I also think people are pretty sharp about recognizing what they're good at and what they aren't. Most of us are very serious fantasy players playing with friends and coworkers who are at varying degrees of ability usually below us. That's just my perspective.

As for the championship anecdotes, obviously they're not a significant sample and if the theory is that it increases variance then it should also increase the championships (as well as last places). Again if we're assuming this hypothetical league of yours these anecdotes speak in favor of the idea, but if we're assuming you have a definite advantage they just prove variance and thus harm in the strategy.

 
Not to be a broken record here but was the study specifically looking at season-long numbers or was it looking at weekly performances? One is extremely intuitive the other is not. I imagine you're saying he looked at season-long but I just want to make sure.
Which one do you think is intuitive? I don't think either one is.
 
I got great value for Kitna, KJones, & Roy Williams last season and ended up with all of them on my roster. Definitely didn't intend for that but couldn't pass them up. I don't like putting that many eggs in one basket and dealt away Jones & Williams for TO & others just before Jones' injury. I won the league but I definitely wouldn't have without getting rid of them.

 
Doug, to me, week-to-week is intuitive. Generally, either the QB or the RB scores on a play, not both. The opposite being true for QB-WR, so both of those make perfect sense to me. It's a bit odd that RB-WR is different than RB-QB though.

Anyway, week-to-week is intuitive because of the above and the fact that you know the overall talent of the team at that time and the opponent lined up for the week. Season-long is not intuitive because you've introduced new kinds of variation that are correlated whether it's season-long (offensive line success, for example) or week-to-week variance (SoS).

 
Doug, to me, week-to-week is intuitive. Generally, either the QB or the RB scores on a play, not both. The opposite being true for QB-WR, so both of those make perfect sense to me. It's a bit odd that RB-WR is different than RB-QB though.

Anyway, week-to-week is intuitive because of the above and the fact that you know the overall talent of the team at that time and the opponent lined up for the week. Season-long is not intuitive because you've introduced new kinds of variation that are correlated whether it's season-long (offensive line success, for example) or week-to-week variance (SoS).
OK, I see. You may have a point. I was under the impression that you did think season-long variance was intuitive, which I'm not so sure of.The study you're proposing (which AFAIK no one has attempted) is: find all same-team WR/WR pairs both of whose members had a certain ADP. Then see if those two were more or less likely than similar-ADP different-team pairs to either both exceed or both fall short of their ADP, as opposed to one of each.

If Rudi Johnson were to go down, would that help or hurt Chad Johnson? It could be argued either way. If Chad Johnson got hurt, would that help or hurt T.J. Houshmandzadeh? Again, I don't think that answer is at all obvious. If Steven Jackson gets hurt, is it obvious whether that's an upgrade or a downgrade for Bulger? For Holt? It's not obvious to me. You mention Edge/Manning/Harrison as an example of synergy causing high variance at the macro level. But there are anecdotes for the other side as well. It's pretty clear that Muhsin Muhammad outproduced his ADP precisely because Steve Smith underproduced his in 2004, and it seems just as clear that Smith outproduced his precisely because Keary Colbert underproduced his the next year. I don't think it's coincidence that Javon Walker outproduced his projections last year when Rod Smith went down. Don't you think Houshmandzadeh's surprisingly good season last year was at least partly caused by, or a cause of, Chad Johnson's disappointing one?

Like you, I'm not claiming these examples are proof of anything. It's an interesting question.

With regard to your two specific examples:

1. SOS. I'm not prepared to accept that SOS variance is greater for same team pairs than for different-team pairs, because, at least for fantasy purposes, QBs and WRs face "different defenses" than RBs do in a given week. In any event, that's irrelevant. You're talking about week-to-week variance. If SOS were a problem, then it would have shown up in the studies of week-to-week variance. But it didn't, at least not enough to make any difference.

2. Offensive line problems. This one may indeed have the potential to tip the scales. But I just don't know.

 
Thanks again for all the input. I'm sitting tight until one of the 3 guys generates a legit offer. This is a local Dallas league, so maybe Cutler or Walker impress someone this Saturday. Denver is very balanced, and tend to keep throwing with a lead, so I'm not too worried...if only for peace of mind come playoff time.

 

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