Blackjacks
Footballguy
after drafting him early in the first round 3 years ago we finally parted ways with this lazy piece. Hopefully he brings more to the table in Denver than he ever did here in STL.
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Rams trade Jimmy Kennedy to Broncos for a 6th round pick (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Blackjacks
- Start date
onionsack
Footballguy
More like "hopefully he takes less away from the table"
The Rams must like what they see in youngsters Wroten and Carriker. 
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
I'm convinced the Broncos are creating some kind of Defensive Line Frankenstein in Denver. They grab all these sucky defensive lineman that no one would miss, then chop them up for parts to build their Frankenstein.
Has anyone actually seen Courtney Brown lately?
Has anyone actually seen Courtney Brown lately?
SSOG
Moderator
Man, give Courtney Brown Jimmy Kennedy's knees, and he'd be a force to be reckoned with. Now just give Marcus Thomas John Engelberger's brain, and give Jarvis Moss Tim Crowder's strength and weight, and give Gerrard Warren Kenard Lang's toes, and you've got an unstoppable force.I think maybe Shanahan has let Bertrand Berry go to his head. Berry was cut and spent a year OoF, but after the Broncs revived his career, he was an all-pro. Maybe Shanahan thinks he can replicate the success, and that's why he keeps acquiring castoffs. I know that he's historically had a ton of success with reclamation projects, second day picks, and other unwanted players, but outside of Warren, he just hasn't had much luck on the D-line recently.At least this time he isn't throwing all of his eggs in the reclamation basket. This year he actually brought in talented players, too, so if the reclamations bust, the Broncos will still have guys.
Jene Bramel
Footballguy
I don't know about that. There's often only two players rushing the passer in a Jim Bates team -- both ends -- as the linebackers aren't blitzed often and the defensive tackles are supposed to be big run stuffers rather than penetrating types.Elvis Dumervil had a couple nice games against some questionable offensive lines, the bulk of Ebenezer Ekuban's stats came when he moved inside on passing downs and Jarvis Moss is untested. The potential for some sacks may be there if Moss plays well, but the Broncos won't be sending waves of rushers at anybody this season by scheme or talent.I'm a little disappointed for Adam Carriker here. I was hoping to see him in the more disruptive three technique type role, but after this deal there isn't a clear NT on the roster. Carriker must have been impressive in OTAs during his NT snaps.
msommer
Footballguy
The reclamation projects generally comes at very low costs though. If he can get Jimmy Kennedy to succeed at the price of a 6th it is a bargain.
SSOG
Moderator
No, I completely agree, and I don't think reclamation projects are a bad idea at all. In fact, I think they're a very GOOD idea. I think when Denver got into trouble was when they went with nothing but reclamation projects. In that case, if they don't pan out, the cost isn't just the peanuts you gave up to get them... the cost is all the games you lost because you were starting nothing but castoffs on the D-Line.FWIW, I actually don't think Denver's had a bad recent history with reclamation projects, either. Warren was a big success, and Ekuban, Lang, and Myers were all serviceable... it's just that eventually you need a stud lineman to carry your team from time to time, and with Warren's double-turf-toe last year, Denver didn't have that. Reclamation projects need to be supplemented with straight up quality linemen (guys like Trevor Pryce), too.
Bizkiteer
Footballguy
Did they increase the roster limits? It seems that Denver keeps adding and adding players. How many DL do you need?
LOL, if you told a team to trade away their first rounder this year for a 6th in 3-4 yrs. Basically that is what STL (Kennedy) and the KC (Sims) have done in the past few weeks. Great work be the FO...if you posed it that way and they did it, they would be out of a job, right? What's the difference?
On another note, are DL that much harder to evaluate on the college level and being successful in the NFL? Seems many more busts on the DL than in the other positions...though QB has led to some BIG bust within thenselves.
LOL, if you told a team to trade away their first rounder this year for a 6th in 3-4 yrs. Basically that is what STL (Kennedy) and the KC (Sims) have done in the past few weeks. Great work be the FO...if you posed it that way and they did it, they would be out of a job, right? What's the difference?
On another note, are DL that much harder to evaluate on the college level and being successful in the NFL? Seems many more busts on the DL than in the other positions...though QB has led to some BIG bust within thenselves.
Beaumont
Footballguy
Sims was the first thing that popped in my mind. We got less for Sims than STL got for Kennedy ...Sims = 2002 1.6 = conditional 2008 7th rounder ...Kennedy = 2003 1.12 = 2008 6th rounder ...
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
one of the biggest issues with kennedy was that he had one gap aspirations in a two gap body... 
in other words, as a NT he asked by the coaches in STL scheme to hold a spot, tie up blockers & let others make plays, too many times pundits would show film where kennedy abandoned his spot trying to get a sack & the RB would run right through untouched the hole kennedy had abandoned...
in college OL are slower and not as nimble, and maybe he made more plays...
pickett was actually not a bust, and was effective at what he was asked to do... basically fall down, clog up the hole, & force offense to run where they don't want to... where perhaps there are unblocked LBs...
as to carriker, i had thought for a little while that with kennedy not showing much, the way to get the best STL DL on field at same time would be carriker at NT & glover at UT... & since glover needs to be spelled, wroten should figure prominently in the UT rotation... for the first time in the past few days, i saw in usa today sports weekly (they covered BUF, STL & CAR), i think linehan said definitively that for now carriker is NT & glover will start as UT...
it is also possible that carriker could play some UT on passing downs if glover needs help in rotation, with one of the day two rookie tackles in the mix at NT (it is unclear if they will both make team, but with kennedy not completely unexpectedly being moved, that may pave the way towards exactly that)...
hard to assess carriker's long term IDP prospects, even in leagues that break out DT separately, & say in deeper start 11 IDP leagues... my prediction is that this year, he will make a huge impact, but it will be as a NT, & it will make rams run defense better, but it may not translate to tangible box score production... more likely to manifest in witherspoon & tinoisamoa being enabled to make more plays...
in the future, when glover hangs em up, & contingent on how good wroten looks at UT, AND how good the rookies look at NT, it may be possible that he plays more UT in upcoming seasons...
in other words, as a NT he asked by the coaches in STL scheme to hold a spot, tie up blockers & let others make plays, too many times pundits would show film where kennedy abandoned his spot trying to get a sack & the RB would run right through untouched the hole kennedy had abandoned...
in college OL are slower and not as nimble, and maybe he made more plays...
pickett was actually not a bust, and was effective at what he was asked to do... basically fall down, clog up the hole, & force offense to run where they don't want to... where perhaps there are unblocked LBs...
as to carriker, i had thought for a little while that with kennedy not showing much, the way to get the best STL DL on field at same time would be carriker at NT & glover at UT... & since glover needs to be spelled, wroten should figure prominently in the UT rotation... for the first time in the past few days, i saw in usa today sports weekly (they covered BUF, STL & CAR), i think linehan said definitively that for now carriker is NT & glover will start as UT...
it is also possible that carriker could play some UT on passing downs if glover needs help in rotation, with one of the day two rookie tackles in the mix at NT (it is unclear if they will both make team, but with kennedy not completely unexpectedly being moved, that may pave the way towards exactly that)...
hard to assess carriker's long term IDP prospects, even in leagues that break out DT separately, & say in deeper start 11 IDP leagues... my prediction is that this year, he will make a huge impact, but it will be as a NT, & it will make rams run defense better, but it may not translate to tangible box score production... more likely to manifest in witherspoon & tinoisamoa being enabled to make more plays...
in the future, when glover hangs em up, & contingent on how good wroten looks at UT, AND how good the rookies look at NT, it may be possible that he plays more UT in upcoming seasons...
Jene Bramel
Footballguy
Seemed like the team wasn't very happy with the Glover/Wroten combination last year. Was that just the media over-reaching or me mis-reading the situation? I thought I saw something about Wroten not impressing much in OTAs.What have you seen Bob?
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
first of all, i'd be one of first to acknowledge glover is on the downside... & some of defensive signings since last year (glover, chavous, hall, draft) are a bit old for my liking... it is great to add vet experience & all, but i guess it is better to add competent 30 year old than incompetent 26 year old...glover is at an age where they have said they don't want to overwork him (begging the question how many snaps he will get as starter?)... since they want to reduce his snaps, he may be better fit as situational pass rusher (which could open door to carriker playing some 3 technique UT... on run downs)... the team may be thinking that it was harder for glover to succeed next to kennedy, but if carriker can be a force glover can be more effective...this line of thinking could be generalized to wroten... he didn't show much as a rookie, but many don't (as i know you well know)... i do recall there being some confusion on rams homer board i frequent that wroten was dissed by local news story, but once it got sorted out it was mistakenly directed at him but actually about another ram... stuff i heard after (from likes of balzer or jim thomas or other rams insider?) was that he has looked good & rams are pleased with his work ethic & level of development from last season to this one... he has also been reportedly getting some looks at DE, & could have the athleticism & agility to log some snaps there, & team is paper thin at that position after little, hall & adeyanju...other reports i have seen is that due to great versatility of carriker to play every position & the teams desire to get best players on the field, is they may at times go with a LT/RT scheme with more interchangeable job descriptions, as opposed to classic NT/UT scheme with rigid division of responsibilities into run stuffer & interior pass rusher...good observations & questions, jene... there is still some uncertainty here, but i think things are starting to come together... part of the confusion stems from the fact that carriker is so versatile, it affords many possible starting DL lineup permutations... not great in IDP world for projecting carrikers short, intermediate & long term value... but in actual football terms, having a guy with his versatility & such an encompassing skill set that he could help at multiple positions, even if we aren't sure where he is "best", is no doubt a good "problem" to have (think richard seymour, another player who is massively important in "real" football but not necessarily an impact IDP baller... maybe not a great example, because i don't think he plays a lot of NT, but UT in 4-3 & DE in 3-4)...if he really is a seymour-like man-child, it may be a moot point where he would fit "best"...is he best as a 3-4 DE, a 4-3 DE or DT? YES!
bulger is already calling him a stud & supposedly early returns are rams organization is very pleased with how he has carried himself so far... so where he fits best is ultimately more a function of what permutation of putting best players AROUND him at THEIR repective best positions (those other rams DL who, like almost everybody else, isn't as versatile as carriker) enables team to get best four on the field at same time, & at best times in situational sense...if clifton ryan &/or keith jackson, jr are real deal, glover may only play 1-2 more years, so very possible carriker plays more UT in future (plus there is draft & free agncy in '08, etc)... or we could see aformentioned LT/RT scheme, which would afford him more chances to rush passer & make plays...hope that was as clear as mud...* i'm starting to see where some fans are frustrated with putting him at NT... even if that is biggest hole for STL DL (it is) & arguably the entire defense (in which case carriker could be a real missing piece of the puzzle type of player), does it make sense to possibly blunt his effectiveness by putting him at a position where he may not make as big an impact, & slot less talented players in the bigger impact position he could be playing from?imo (& why i think i understand & agree with rams rationale for now), carriker is such a physical specimen & & so talented that he WILL make a big impact at NT, despite the fact that it isn't exactly an easy position to do that from (ESPECIALLY for a rookie)...if the rams improve in run defense (coming close to top 20 from 31st), carriker plays an integral part in the turnaround & the team makes the playoffs with a potentially powerhouse offense, the coaching staff will look like geniuses come january...the team has clearly placed a high priority on getting the run defense fixed (not that carriker couldn't help with that from UT), and it is easy to see why in same division with alexander, gore & edge...
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Jene Bramel
Footballguy
I'm not saying that Jim Bates' teams aren't successful rushing the passer. As you know, plenty of teams/schemes do very well relying on the front four for the bulk of their pass rush. I thought that you were implying that the Broncos would have "fun rushing the QB" this year because they would have more opportunity. My point was that the team wasn't going to use the blitz any more often than under Larry Coyer and the defensive ends have some question marks.The Dolphins did have plenty of sacks but, secondary aside, Jason Taylor, Adewale Ogunleye and Trace Armstrong are >>> Jarvis Moss, Elvis Dumervil and Ebenezer Ekuban. Only Zach Thomas and Junior Seau (once each with three) had more than two sacks in any of Jim Bates' five seasons in Miami. The same was the case in both Green Bay and Dallas. I'll be surprised if the Broncos are in the top half of the league in total sacks this year unless Jarvis Moss is a stud.
ramsfan
Footballguy
All of this just highlights that all Rams fans should be glad the Mike Martz era is over. I don't remember the specifics, but the year Kennedy was drafted, there was a run on DT's, something like 8 in a row, and of course, the Rams grab the last guy on the run.
Basic Fantasy Football 101 No-No. I knew we were doomed when Martz did the cabbage patch dance, and said they could not believe Kennedy fell to them..... Kiper and ESPN analysts didn't even have Kennedy on the radar....
I think it will be good to be a Rams fan here the next few years....
Basic Fantasy Football 101 No-No. I knew we were doomed when Martz did the cabbage patch dance, and said they could not believe Kennedy fell to them..... Kiper and ESPN analysts didn't even have Kennedy on the radar....
I think it will be good to be a Rams fan here the next few years....
......3 whatever
