Ran a 10k in June (5 Viewers)

[tri-man 47]

Chauncey - nice job with the HM! The steady pacing at the end shows you ran a controlled race ...and probably have a little more in ya (maybe enough to get under 2:00). Looks like you might have held back in miles 5-7, possibly due to concerns about not blowing up. Go out with more confidence and you can pick up some time.

We talk about racing your way into shape, so you could treat this HM as a hard training run for the race in two weeks. As noted, you can't do much serious training between now and then. If anything, maybe some short, sharp runs later in the week or next weekend. Don't try to push the distance - you know you can sustain your pace for the full 13 miles. You finished a two hour race, so give yourself two days off. You earned it!

 

[Juxtatarot]

5 awful miles today. Was supposed to run 7. Very icy, had to walk several areas to avoid falling. Very windy wind chill right around zero. Heart was pounding, breathing was crazy heavy, and my legs were shot.

No idea what the heck is going on these days, but my runs are all over the map. Very frustrated.

I've mentioned this before but it demonstrates what's nice about treadmill runs. Weather doesn't matter and it lets you monitor your performance in a near laboratory setting.Also, I remember someone posting an article about 50 degrees or so being optimal. Every 10 degrees colder is as bad as 10 degrees warmer.

I agree that there is such a thing as "too cold to train effectively," but there's no way it's linear like this. I can do pretty good long runs at zero degrees (intervals would not be happening at that temp, granted), whereas I can't do any kind of quality running at all at 90+.

Yeah, I'm sure you're right. I think all this running stuff I've read is jumbled up in my mind and came out wrong. Point I was trying to make, though, is the cold weather certainly affects one's performance and to be cognizant of that.

 

[worrierking]

Great Job Chauncey. Congrats. Go get 'em in San Diego.

I am finally set for my MRI Wednesday after two scheduling mishaps.

 

[Hang 10]

I'd be curious to see what my max heartrate is because I know when I'm doing intervals on the treadmill and use the little grips I've seen numbers as high as 188. Don't know how accurate those things are though.

 

[Ned]

I'd be curious to see what my max heartrate is because I know when I'm doing intervals on the treadmill and use the little grips I've seen numbers as high as 188. Don't know how accurate those things are though.

They're crap.

 

[ChiefD]

Ran 10.7 today. I was all over the place in terms of heart rate relative to pace. Finally just settled in with a heart rate around 160-162. Ended up with an overall pace of 9:17, which is perfectly fine with me. Didn't really try to push it.

160-162? That's a "push it" heart rate. What's your goal pace?

Keep in mind: I've only been running with a heart rate monitor for about 3 weeks, so I'm still trying to work on running slow. So I know my heart rate is pretty high right now. This route I ran today had a stretch from mile 4 through 8 that was at a steady incline for a large portion, so I'm guessing that skewed my numbers. Miles 1-4 were pretty good: I was in the high 140's pretty much that whole stretch.My target for my race is about an 8:00 minute mile. My last half in October was 8:23.

What is your HR at 8:00 pace after a few miles? I'm surprised 162 wasn't a difficult long run for you. It makes me wonder if your max is higher than we thought.

Can't really say. Since I've had the heart monitor, I've been trying to run slow. I ran an 8:34 pace on Thursday, and that's the fastest pace I've run since getting the heart monitor. My average bpm was 171. I also live in a neighborhood that has a fair amount of hills, so the longest stretch I ever have that's flat or downhill is MAYBE a mile. More like 3/4 probably.

And the 162 was a pretty smooth run really. Legs got a little tired toward the end, but I attribute that more to drinking 4 beers last night than anything. That and I've been remodeling the kitchen, so I was on my feet all day Saturday between that and my 4 mile run.

Ok. Just to give you a comparison, my max is about 182. I'll run half marathon paces in the low to mid 160s (until near the end) and any run over 150 for me starts to be a difficult effort.

What is your half pace?

PR pace is 6:41.

Man, I have a long way to go obviously. Lol.

This heart monitor thing has really added a whole new dimension to my running. I've only really been running about a year and a half, so all my running has been the mentality of "try to run a faster pace than last time."

So maybe by body is just used to that? I don't know, but I feel right now I have to step back to move forward.

This is why finding your true max HR (or close) is important. All we're doing is guessing at the ranges you should be running. Getting your max HR takes most of the guessing game out of it.

Since you said that 162 run was a smooth kind of effort, I'd wager it was a small notch above GA type effort. That'd put you in the mid 190s mHR.... but again, just guessing.

Try to earmark a run in the next week or two where you can go attack some of the hills for a simulated 5K race. Really drop the hammer at mile 2.7ish and leave it all out there. Picture fetal position in your own puke sort of effort at the end.

Ok, will do. Tomorrow might actually be a good day for that. Got a slow run tonight, and tomorrow is normally a speed day. Will report back.

Thanks all.

 

[Prince Myshkin]

Anybody watch any of the cross country skiing during the olympics? The 50k yesterday (I think it was yesterday) was mind-blowing. The cross country events are the only ones I've ever seen where there are no immediate celebrations by the medal winners. They all collapse in a heap just past the finish line (seeing Ned's description of "fetal position in your own puke" description made me think of it...)

 

[Sand]

I usually find sharing meme type posters/pictures to be pretty dull, but I really liked this one. If ever we thought he wasn't a smart guy...

 

[koby925]

I'm starting to think I'm F'ed with the labral tear. I think it has progressed from slight. Used to be that I'd only barely feel it during or after a run and only on odd things like sneezing/coughing, extending my leg too much. Now I feel it much more on the runs, I actually stopped a run Thursday because of a pain/pull and for a few hours after the run it hurts like hell. And now more everyday tasks like squatting to get on the ground to change a diaper, lifting a kid, etc. are really painful. Gonna schedule an orthopedic surgeon consult

 

[worrierking]

I'm starting to think I'm F'ed with the labral tear. I think it has progressed from slight. Used to be that I'd only barely feel it during or after a run and only on odd things like sneezing/coughing, extending my leg too much. Now I feel it much more on the runs, I actually stopped a run Thursday because of a pain/pull and for a few hours after the run it hurts like hell. And now more everyday tasks like squatting to get on the ground to change a diaper, lifting a kid, etc. are really painful. Gonna schedule an orthopedic surgeon consult

Koby, that's bad news. I feel your pain. I am going back and forth convinced mine is torn and then optimistic that it is not. I am driving myself nuts. My wife, who knows a thing or two about depression, says I am one more sleep deprived night away from a prescription. Hang in there.

 

[wilked]

Chauncey, well done!!!

 

[wilked]

Pretty quick race report...

Strava - http://www.strava.com/activities/115770081

So after a tough winter (lots of cold days) we were blessed with a great day to run. ~50 degrees, not much wind, just perfect. The race is in Cape Cod and is relatively picturesque, very enjoyable.

Before running I decided to run this similar to my plan in Boston. I am hoping to run an 8 min overall pace in Boston, 3:30. That is a 12 min improvement on last year, so consider it a stretch goal. I made a plan for Boston as:
Miles 0-5: Run 8:05 pace, get warmed up.
Miles 5-10: Pick it up, 7:55 pace, start to run it.
Miles 10-16: 7:45 pace, begin to race it.
Miles 16-21: 8:15 reduced pace through the Newton Hills
Miles 21-Finish: 7:45 pace, finish it up

http://www.newyorkpersonalinjuryattorneyblog.com/uploaded_images/Boston-Marathon-Elevations-746389.png


So I simply grabbed the first 13 miles above and used it to guide me through the half as a test.

It was a big funnel at the start, spent the first mile or two doing my best not to run anyone over, taking it nice and easy. After 5 miles, averaged 8:04, right on plan. Felt great, was holding myself back through this period to ensure I don't go too fast.

Miles 5 - 10 I began picking it up a bit, still feeling great. There were some rolling hills that I pushed through to run at pace, but felt my body recover quickly on the other side of them. Ran this section at 7:52 pace, so slightly faster than I planned but basically right on.

At mile 10 I picked it up again, trying to find the 7:45 pace. Here I did start to feel a bit fatigued, breathing started to be a bit less controlled. I had to focus on making pace, whereas prior to this pace was natural. I was glad to see the finish line and would have struggled to keep this pace going for many more miles. Finished the 3 miles at 7:42 pace, 1:44 overall (my PR for a half is 1:39, FWIW)

So, now I have strong seeds of doubt for my Boston plan. If I just look at heartrate data, it appears to climb up until mile 7, at which point it flattens at 155-160 through mile 11, and promptly jumps up till the end. I interpret the data / feelings as that 7:45 is too quick for me right now, and I am running out of training time between now and Boston.

Do people think running a flatter pace in Boston (8 min pace throughout the race) is better? I was hoping to 'bank' some time early before the Newton hills so that I could drop pace a little and still be ok.

Anyway, interested in any feedback at this point, and advice on getting a little faster in the next 50 days.

 

[Sand]

Chauncey, well done!!!

Absolutely!

Wilked, nice race, as well! Good, even splits. I'm not qualified to answer your questions other than to say that if you didn't puke on the finish line you had more in the tank.

 

[koby925]

I'm starting to think I'm F'ed with the labral tear. I think it has progressed from slight. Used to be that I'd only barely feel it during or after a run and only on odd things like sneezing/coughing, extending my leg too much. Now I feel it much more on the runs, I actually stopped a run Thursday because of a pain/pull and for a few hours after the run it hurts like hell. And now more everyday tasks like squatting to get on the ground to change a diaper, lifting a kid, etc. are really painful. Gonna schedule an orthopedic surgeon consult

Koby, that's bad news. I feel your pain. I am going back and forth convinced mine is torn and then optimistic that it is not. I am driving myself nuts. My wife, who knows a thing or two about depression, says I am one more sleep deprived night away from a prescription. Hang in there.

That's kind of where I am. But I have been going back and forth between think my diagnosed "very subtle nondisplaced partial detachment at the superior acetabular labrum" is just that or is now not so subtle or more than partially detached. Unfortunately, I think it's the latter. Guy I want to see isn't available until March 12. Double sad banana. I may see the sports med guy in the meantime to see what he thinks of surgery or cortisone.

 

[beer 302]

Anybody watch any of the cross country skiing during the olympics? The 50k yesterday (I think it was yesterday) was mind-blowing. The cross country events are the only ones I've ever seen where there are no immediate celebrations by the medal winners. They all collapse in a heap just past the finish line (seeing Ned's description of "fetal position in your own puke" description made me think of it...)

Yea, it was awesome! I was watching it with the wife getting all geeked up over it and she was looking at me like I'm nuts. Great finish.

 

[Ned]

Pretty quick race report...

Strava - http://www.strava.com/activities/115770081

So after a tough winter (lots of cold days) we were blessed with a great day to run. ~50 degrees, not much wind, just perfect. The race is in Cape Cod and is relatively picturesque, very enjoyable.

Before running I decided to run this similar to my plan in Boston. I am hoping to run an 8 min overall pace in Boston, 3:30. That is a 12 min improvement on last year, so consider it a stretch goal. I made a plan for Boston as:
Miles 0-5: Run 8:05 pace, get warmed up.
Miles 5-10: Pick it up, 7:55 pace, start to run it.
Miles 10-16: 7:45 pace, begin to race it.
Miles 16-21: 8:15 reduced pace through the Newton Hills
Miles 21-Finish: 7:45 pace, finish it up

http://www.newyorkpersonalinjuryattorneyblog.com/uploaded_images/Boston-Marathon-Elevations-746389.png


So I simply grabbed the first 13 miles above and used it to guide me through the half as a test.

It was a big funnel at the start, spent the first mile or two doing my best not to run anyone over, taking it nice and easy. After 5 miles, averaged 8:04, right on plan. Felt great, was holding myself back through this period to ensure I don't go too fast.

Miles 5 - 10 I began picking it up a bit, still feeling great. There were some rolling hills that I pushed through to run at pace, but felt my body recover quickly on the other side of them. Ran this section at 7:52 pace, so slightly faster than I planned but basically right on.

At mile 10 I picked it up again, trying to find the 7:45 pace. Here I did start to feel a bit fatigued, breathing started to be a bit less controlled. I had to focus on making pace, whereas prior to this pace was natural. I was glad to see the finish line and would have struggled to keep this pace going for many more miles. Finished the 3 miles at 7:42 pace, 1:44 overall (my PR for a half is 1:39, FWIW)

So, now I have strong seeds of doubt for my Boston plan. If I just look at heartrate data, it appears to climb up until mile 7, at which point it flattens at 155-160 through mile 11, and promptly jumps up till the end. I interpret the data / feelings as that 7:45 is too quick for me right now, and I am running out of training time between now and Boston.

Do people think running a flatter pace in Boston (8 min pace throughout the race) is better? I was hoping to 'bank' some time early before the Newton hills so that I could drop pace a little and still be ok.

Anyway, interested in any feedback at this point, and advice on getting a little faster in the next 50 days.

What's your training volume been for the past year? Unless you've got a huge base, I think trying to bank time in a marathon is a bad idea. You'd be better off going for a negative split or an even paced effort vs. banking time for hills at mile 20.

 

[Ned]

I'm starting to think I'm F'ed with the labral tear. I think it has progressed from slight. Used to be that I'd only barely feel it during or after a run and only on odd things like sneezing/coughing, extending my leg too much. Now I feel it much more on the runs, I actually stopped a run Thursday because of a pain/pull and for a few hours after the run it hurts like hell. And now more everyday tasks like squatting to get on the ground to change a diaper, lifting a kid, etc. are really painful. Gonna schedule an orthopedic surgeon consult

Koby, that's bad news. I feel your pain. I am going back and forth convinced mine is torn and then optimistic that it is not. I am driving myself nuts. My wife, who knows a thing or two about depression, says I am one more sleep deprived night away from a prescription. Hang in there.

That's kind of where I am. But I have been going back and forth between think my diagnosed "very subtle nondisplaced partial detachment at the superior acetabular labrum" is just that or is now not so subtle or more than partially detached. Unfortunately, I think it's the latter. Guy I want to see isn't available until March 12. Double sad banana. I may see the sports med guy in the meantime to see what he thinks of surgery or cortisone.

Ugh. Fingers crossed for both of you.

On the bright side, it's a good excuse to milk a groin massage from the wife.

 

[Hang 10]

I just ordered at heartrate monitor. :ned:

 

[koby925]

I'm starting to think I'm F'ed with the labral tear. I think it has progressed from slight. Used to be that I'd only barely feel it during or after a run and only on odd things like sneezing/coughing, extending my leg too much. Now I feel it much more on the runs, I actually stopped a run Thursday because of a pain/pull and for a few hours after the run it hurts like hell. And now more everyday tasks like squatting to get on the ground to change a diaper, lifting a kid, etc. are really painful. Gonna schedule an orthopedic surgeon consult

Koby, that's bad news. I feel your pain. I am going back and forth convinced mine is torn and then optimistic that it is not. I am driving myself nuts. My wife, who knows a thing or two about depression, says I am one more sleep deprived night away from a prescription. Hang in there.

That's kind of where I am. But I have been going back and forth between think my diagnosed "very subtle nondisplaced partial detachment at the superior acetabular labrum" is just that or is now not so subtle or more than partially detached. Unfortunately, I think it's the latter. Guy I want to see isn't available until March 12. Double sad banana. I may see the sports med guy in the meantime to see what he thinks of surgery or cortisone.

Ugh. Fingers crossed for both of you.

On the bright side, it's a good excuse to milk a groin massage from the wife.

Took yesterday off and it did wonders. This is weird and frustrating.

 

[jb1020]

I've been lucky enough to avoid injury now for about 4-5 years since I've picked up running.

Play soccer (for maybe 5 minutes with my 6 yo nephew) for the first time in probably 20 years and end up in the ER. I thought my ankle was broken, turns out its just badly sprained. Have one of those beautiful black and blue ankles now.

 

[sho nuff]

I've been lucky enough to avoid injury now for about 4-5 years since I've picked up running.

Play soccer (for maybe 5 minutes with my 6 yo nephew) for the first time in probably 20 years and end up in the ER. I thought my ankle was broken, turns out its just badly sprained. Have one of those beautiful black and blue ankles now.

Always fun.

STill having some effects of messing mine up about 3-4 weeks ago.

Good times.

Everytime I think I am ok...I will hit a step or something funny in the house and feel the twinge of pain.

 

[parasaurolophus]

This winter has officially beaten me down. If I hear "polar vortex" one more time I might go MOP.

 

[ChiefD]

This is why finding your true max HR (or close) is important. All we're doing is guessing at the ranges you should be running. Getting your max HR takes most of the guessing game out of it.

Since you said that 162 run was a smooth kind of effort, I'd wager it was a small notch above GA type effort. That'd put you in the mid 190s mHR.... but again, just guessing.

Try to earmark a run in the next week or two where you can go attack some of the hills for a simulated 5K race. Really drop the hammer at mile 2.7ish and leave it all out there. Picture fetal position in your own puke sort of effort at the end.

So I went out tonight and followed your advice. Ran 3.2 and ran as hard as I can. To illustrate, I came home and laid on the floor, pretty dizzy, and my 3 year old daughter promptly stepped on my belly. I just about puked right then and there. Anyway:

The first quarter mile was pretty much an uphill run. I laid into that hill as hard as I could: max heart rate here was 217. I then hit the top of the hill, so the next mile was downhill and then flat. Heart rate in this area was in the neighborhood of 171ish. The next 3/4 mile is a steady incline, so I slowed a bit here, but still tried to push as best I could. My heart rate at this point was 180ish. From there to about the 2.7 mark was a downhill: heart rate is going back toward the low 170's. At 2.7 I push it as hard as I can. The first half of this section was a little downhill, followed by a steady incline for the last bit. I'm running hard, but I'm definitely running out of gas. The highest I hit in this stretch is 187 bpm.

It was also pretty dang cold out there: about 17 degrees.

 

[wilked]

Early in the run heartrate is often high (due to bad contacts...you need to gain some sweat to get a good reading)

 

[wilked]

Pretty quick race report...

Strava - http://www.strava.com/activities/115770081

So after a tough winter (lots of cold days) we were blessed with a great day to run. ~50 degrees, not much wind, just perfect. The race is in Cape Cod and is relatively picturesque, very enjoyable.

Before running I decided to run this similar to my plan in Boston. I am hoping to run an 8 min overall pace in Boston, 3:30. That is a 12 min improvement on last year, so consider it a stretch goal. I made a plan for Boston as:
Miles 0-5: Run 8:05 pace, get warmed up.
Miles 5-10: Pick it up, 7:55 pace, start to run it.
Miles 10-16: 7:45 pace, begin to race it.
Miles 16-21: 8:15 reduced pace through the Newton Hills
Miles 21-Finish: 7:45 pace, finish it up

http://www.newyorkpersonalinjuryattorneyblog.com/uploaded_images/Boston-Marathon-Elevations-746389.png


So I simply grabbed the first 13 miles above and used it to guide me through the half as a test.

It was a big funnel at the start, spent the first mile or two doing my best not to run anyone over, taking it nice and easy. After 5 miles, averaged 8:04, right on plan. Felt great, was holding myself back through this period to ensure I don't go too fast.

Miles 5 - 10 I began picking it up a bit, still feeling great. There were some rolling hills that I pushed through to run at pace, but felt my body recover quickly on the other side of them. Ran this section at 7:52 pace, so slightly faster than I planned but basically right on.

At mile 10 I picked it up again, trying to find the 7:45 pace. Here I did start to feel a bit fatigued, breathing started to be a bit less controlled. I had to focus on making pace, whereas prior to this pace was natural. I was glad to see the finish line and would have struggled to keep this pace going for many more miles. Finished the 3 miles at 7:42 pace, 1:44 overall (my PR for a half is 1:39, FWIW)

So, now I have strong seeds of doubt for my Boston plan. If I just look at heartrate data, it appears to climb up until mile 7, at which point it flattens at 155-160 through mile 11, and promptly jumps up till the end. I interpret the data / feelings as that 7:45 is too quick for me right now, and I am running out of training time between now and Boston.

Do people think running a flatter pace in Boston (8 min pace throughout the race) is better? I was hoping to 'bank' some time early before the Newton hills so that I could drop pace a little and still be ok.

Anyway, interested in any feedback at this point, and advice on getting a little faster in the next 50 days.

What's your training volume been for the past year? Unless you've got a huge base, I think trying to bank time in a marathon is a bad idea. You'd be better off going for a negative split or an even paced effort vs. banking time for hills at mile 20.

Volume for 2014 much higher, focused than 2nd half 2013. Been somewhere between 20 and 40ish miles a week, somewhat inconsistent but getting my long runs in on the weekend and running 3-5 times a week.

I hear you on banking, generally, I only applied it to Boston as I expected to lose pace up the hills. Are you suggesting powering through the hills at race pace?

 

[bentley]

Hey guys. I don't really have anything to add but wanted to thank everyone for the support again. I've been reading your exploits and continue to be amazed by the quality of the group.

 

[tri-man 47]

I've been lucky enough to avoid injury now for about 4-5 years since I've picked up running.

Play soccer (for maybe 5 minutes with my 6 yo nephew) for the first time in probably 20 years and end up in the ER. I thought my ankle was broken, turns out its just badly sprained. Have one of those beautiful black and blue ankles now.

Frustrating, I'm sure!

wilked - the early down slope at Boston allows some banking of time, but as you know, you have to keep it under control. Your HR elevation around mile 11 of the HM tells me your endurance isn't quite where it needs to be yet. However, you could plan on a steady increase in the HR for Boston. Just keep it under control for the first 10-12 miles, then it could work to let it slowly elevate from there. The hills really aren't that bad ..you get time to recover after each of them. It's just their placement in the back half of the race. I think the Boston challenge is the HR stimulation caused by all the people (runners and fantastic crowd). I'd normally suggest trying to zone them out, but not this year. There will never be another race like Boston, 2014. Embrace the experience.

koby - bummed to hear your news! We're racking up too many injuries here at the start of the year!!

 

[Ned]

This is why finding your true max HR (or close) is important. All we're doing is guessing at the ranges you should be running. Getting your max HR takes most of the guessing game out of it.

Since you said that 162 run was a smooth kind of effort, I'd wager it was a small notch above GA type effort. That'd put you in the mid 190s mHR.... but again, just guessing.

Try to earmark a run in the next week or two where you can go attack some of the hills for a simulated 5K race. Really drop the hammer at mile 2.7ish and leave it all out there. Picture fetal position in your own puke sort of effort at the end.

So I went out tonight and followed your advice. Ran 3.2 and ran as hard as I can. To illustrate, I came home and laid on the floor, pretty dizzy, and my 3 year old daughter promptly stepped on my belly. I just about puked right then and there. Anyway:

The first quarter mile was pretty much an uphill run. I laid into that hill as hard as I could: max heart rate here was 217. I then hit the top of the hill, so the next mile was downhill and then flat. Heart rate in this area was in the neighborhood of 171ish. The next 3/4 mile is a steady incline, so I slowed a bit here, but still tried to push as best I could. My heart rate at this point was 180ish. From there to about the 2.7 mark was a downhill: heart rate is going back toward the low 170's. At 2.7 I push it as hard as I can. The first half of this section was a little downhill, followed by a steady incline for the last bit. I'm running hard, but I'm definitely running out of gas. The highest I hit in this stretch is 187 bpm.

It was also pretty dang cold out there: about 17 degrees.

As Wilked mentioned, that 217 is most likely a false reading. Happens a lot in this dry winter air. 187 may be close. Assuming 187, for now (you should try to confirm it at a couple of actual 5K races), I'd suggest this:

Recovery: < 126

Long Run: <=140

MP: 150-159

Tempo/HMP: 159-169

Speed: >170

 

[Ned]

Pretty quick race report...

Strava - http://www.strava.com/activities/115770081

So after a tough winter (lots of cold days) we were blessed with a great day to run. ~50 degrees, not much wind, just perfect. The race is in Cape Cod and is relatively picturesque, very enjoyable.

Before running I decided to run this similar to my plan in Boston. I am hoping to run an 8 min overall pace in Boston, 3:30. That is a 12 min improvement on last year, so consider it a stretch goal. I made a plan for Boston as:
Miles 0-5: Run 8:05 pace, get warmed up.
Miles 5-10: Pick it up, 7:55 pace, start to run it.
Miles 10-16: 7:45 pace, begin to race it.
Miles 16-21: 8:15 reduced pace through the Newton Hills
Miles 21-Finish: 7:45 pace, finish it up

http://www.newyorkpersonalinjuryattorneyblog.com/uploaded_images/Boston-Marathon-Elevations-746389.png


So I simply grabbed the first 13 miles above and used it to guide me through the half as a test.

It was a big funnel at the start, spent the first mile or two doing my best not to run anyone over, taking it nice and easy. After 5 miles, averaged 8:04, right on plan. Felt great, was holding myself back through this period to ensure I don't go too fast.

Miles 5 - 10 I began picking it up a bit, still feeling great. There were some rolling hills that I pushed through to run at pace, but felt my body recover quickly on the other side of them. Ran this section at 7:52 pace, so slightly faster than I planned but basically right on.

At mile 10 I picked it up again, trying to find the 7:45 pace. Here I did start to feel a bit fatigued, breathing started to be a bit less controlled. I had to focus on making pace, whereas prior to this pace was natural. I was glad to see the finish line and would have struggled to keep this pace going for many more miles. Finished the 3 miles at 7:42 pace, 1:44 overall (my PR for a half is 1:39, FWIW)

So, now I have strong seeds of doubt for my Boston plan. If I just look at heartrate data, it appears to climb up until mile 7, at which point it flattens at 155-160 through mile 11, and promptly jumps up till the end. I interpret the data / feelings as that 7:45 is too quick for me right now, and I am running out of training time between now and Boston.

Do people think running a flatter pace in Boston (8 min pace throughout the race) is better? I was hoping to 'bank' some time early before the Newton hills so that I could drop pace a little and still be ok.

Anyway, interested in any feedback at this point, and advice on getting a little faster in the next 50 days.

What's your training volume been for the past year? Unless you've got a huge base, I think trying to bank time in a marathon is a bad idea. You'd be better off going for a negative split or an even paced effort vs. banking time for hills at mile 20.

Volume for 2014 much higher, focused than 2nd half 2013. Been somewhere between 20 and 40ish miles a week, somewhat inconsistent but getting my long runs in on the weekend and running 3-5 times a week.

I hear you on banking, generally, I only applied it to Boston as I expected to lose pace up the hills. Are you suggesting powering through the hills at race pace?

Tri is pretty spot on. With your volume, I'd play it cautiously. There's too much risk and little upside by trying to push the beginning.

 

[Sand]

Early in the run heartrate is often high (due to bad contacts...you need to gain some sweat to get a good reading)

God I can't wait to get rid of my damn chest strap. I hate the damn thing. Two months and it is gone forever!

 

[2Young2BBald]

Early in the run heartrate is often high (due to bad contacts...you need to gain some sweat to get a good reading)

God I can't wait to get rid of my damn chest strap. I hate the damn thing. Two months and it is gone forever!

Too lazy to search at the moment and know you are a gear/research ho like me. Has DC Rainmaker reviewed the wrist monitor yet?

 

[ChiefD]

This is why finding your true max HR (or close) is important. All we're doing is guessing at the ranges you should be running. Getting your max HR takes most of the guessing game out of it.

Since you said that 162 run was a smooth kind of effort, I'd wager it was a small notch above GA type effort. That'd put you in the mid 190s mHR.... but again, just guessing.

Try to earmark a run in the next week or two where you can go attack some of the hills for a simulated 5K race. Really drop the hammer at mile 2.7ish and leave it all out there. Picture fetal position in your own puke sort of effort at the end.

So I went out tonight and followed your advice. Ran 3.2 and ran as hard as I can. To illustrate, I came home and laid on the floor, pretty dizzy, and my 3 year old daughter promptly stepped on my belly. I just about puked right then and there. Anyway:

The first quarter mile was pretty much an uphill run. I laid into that hill as hard as I could: max heart rate here was 217. I then hit the top of the hill, so the next mile was downhill and then flat. Heart rate in this area was in the neighborhood of 171ish. The next 3/4 mile is a steady incline, so I slowed a bit here, but still tried to push as best I could. My heart rate at this point was 180ish. From there to about the 2.7 mark was a downhill: heart rate is going back toward the low 170's. At 2.7 I push it as hard as I can. The first half of this section was a little downhill, followed by a steady incline for the last bit. I'm running hard, but I'm definitely running out of gas. The highest I hit in this stretch is 187 bpm.

It was also pretty dang cold out there: about 17 degrees.

As Wilked mentioned, that 217 is most likely a false reading. Happens a lot in this dry winter air. 187 may be close. Assuming 187, for now (you should try to confirm it at a couple of actual 5K races), I'd suggest this:

Recovery: < 126

Long Run: <=140

MP: 150-159

Tempo/HMP: 159-169

Speed: >170

Ok, thanks for the info. The Recovery heart rate worries me a bit. The only way I can be below 126 is if I walk. So if that's what it takes, it that your suggestion?

 

[Ned]

This is why finding your true max HR (or close) is important. All we're doing is guessing at the ranges you should be running. Getting your max HR takes most of the guessing game out of it.

Since you said that 162 run was a smooth kind of effort, I'd wager it was a small notch above GA type effort. That'd put you in the mid 190s mHR.... but again, just guessing.

Try to earmark a run in the next week or two where you can go attack some of the hills for a simulated 5K race. Really drop the hammer at mile 2.7ish and leave it all out there. Picture fetal position in your own puke sort of effort at the end.

So I went out tonight and followed your advice. Ran 3.2 and ran as hard as I can. To illustrate, I came home and laid on the floor, pretty dizzy, and my 3 year old daughter promptly stepped on my belly. I just about puked right then and there. Anyway:

The first quarter mile was pretty much an uphill run. I laid into that hill as hard as I could: max heart rate here was 217. I then hit the top of the hill, so the next mile was downhill and then flat. Heart rate in this area was in the neighborhood of 171ish. The next 3/4 mile is a steady incline, so I slowed a bit here, but still tried to push as best I could. My heart rate at this point was 180ish. From there to about the 2.7 mark was a downhill: heart rate is going back toward the low 170's. At 2.7 I push it as hard as I can. The first half of this section was a little downhill, followed by a steady incline for the last bit. I'm running hard, but I'm definitely running out of gas. The highest I hit in this stretch is 187 bpm.

It was also pretty dang cold out there: about 17 degrees.

As Wilked mentioned, that 217 is most likely a false reading. Happens a lot in this dry winter air. 187 may be close. Assuming 187, for now (you should try to confirm it at a couple of actual 5K races), I'd suggest this:

Recovery: < 126

Long Run: <=140

MP: 150-159

Tempo/HMP: 159-169

Speed: >170

Ok, thanks for the info. The Recovery heart rate worries me a bit. The only way I can be below 126 is if I walk. So if that's what it takes, it that your suggestion?

I was surprised you 'only' hit 187 on your test based on your comments about how that 162 run felt, but you gotta start somewhere. That's why I said you should confirm it in an actual 5K race sometime. That 5K would be a good speed workout for your HM training also........

You might be surprised after a few attempts that you can run that low. I used to despise Recovery runs because I felt like an idiot going that slow, but just like anything else you'll adapt. They're down right therapeutic for me nowadays.

 

[tri-man 47]

Chief, if it's really, truly recovery, then you won't mind that snail's-like pace (e.g., catching a few miles in the days after a hard event). Most days will be in that long run zone, and you're still working to sort out that zone. My HR max is in the low 190s, and my long, slow runs tend to be in the 140-145 HR range. They're just poke-along runs and feel quite useless ...but I know good things are happening internally in the development of my aerobic engine.

 

[Juxtatarot]

Chief, aren't you doing a Hal Higdon training schedule? (Maybe I'm getting you confused with someone else.) I don't think those programs even have recovery runs. Plenty of Easy Runs which can be defined a little different. I found this on Higdon's site:

Easy Runs: The runs on Tuesdays and Thursdays and sometimes Saturdays are designed to be done at a comfortable pace. Don't worry about how fast you run these workouts. Run easy! If you're training with a friend, the two of you should be able to hold a conversation. If you can't do that, you're running too fast. (For those wearing heart rate monitors, your target zone should be between 65 and 75 percent of your maximum pulse rate.)

Not that there aren't advantages to mixing in recovery runs -- there certainly can be. I guess I'm just now sure how you're doing that.

 

[Sand]

Early in the run heartrate is often high (due to bad contacts...you need to gain some sweat to get a good reading)

God I can't wait to get rid of my damn chest strap. I hate the damn thing. Two months and it is gone forever!

Too lazy to search at the moment and know you are a gear/research ho like me. Has DC Rainmaker reviewed the wrist monitor yet?

Holla, you ho.

Not a full up review, but good enough for me. Evidently the release date is in April and the battery capacity is up to ~10 hours. No matter - I'm on the list to get notified about preorders and will be getting one first thing.

 

[Ned]

Early in the run heartrate is often high (due to bad contacts...you need to gain some sweat to get a good reading)

God I can't wait to get rid of my damn chest strap. I hate the damn thing. Two months and it is gone forever!

Too lazy to search at the moment and know you are a gear/research ho like me. Has DC Rainmaker reviewed the wrist monitor yet?

Holla, you ho.

Not a full up review, but good enough for me. Evidently the release date is in April and the battery capacity is up to ~10 hours. No matter - I'm on the list to get notified about preorders and will be getting one first thing.

That Adidas watch has been super tempting. I'm so sick of my MOTOACTV and all its quirky bugs. I'm too addicted to the 6 data elements on the screen to give it up.

 

[Hang 10]

Man, it just feels good to be training again.

5 easy miles at a 8:25 pace yesterday.

Today was a 8 mile trail run (4 easy and 4 tempo). Ran the first 4 at a 9 minute pace and then picked it up to 7:20, 7:17, 7:10, 6:58.



ETA: My heartrate monitor arrived today but not before my run. Plan to give it a try for my 5 mile easy run tomorrow.

 

[2Young2BBald]

Early in the run heartrate is often high (due to bad contacts...you need to gain some sweat to get a good reading)

God I can't wait to get rid of my damn chest strap. I hate the damn thing. Two months and it is gone forever!

Too lazy to search at the moment and know you are a gear/research ho like me. Has DC Rainmaker reviewed the wrist monitor yet?

Holla, you ho.

Not a full up review, but good enough for me. Evidently the release date is in April and the battery capacity is up to ~10 hours. No matter - I'm on the list to get notified about preorders and will be getting one first thing.

On a realted-ish topic, after seeing an add for the Nike + Fuel Band I was one click away from proceeding to checkout to buy one, but hit up the Rainmaker right before I did. So glad I did, as the #### thing is only water resistant. I was so hoping to have a gadget that tracked everything (if you look it up, they even tested ####ing, ####ing and other non-traditional exercises).

 

[ChiefD]

This is why finding your true max HR (or close) is important. All we're doing is guessing at the ranges you should be running. Getting your max HR takes most of the guessing game out of it.

Since you said that 162 run was a smooth kind of effort, I'd wager it was a small notch above GA type effort. That'd put you in the mid 190s mHR.... but again, just guessing.

Try to earmark a run in the next week or two where you can go attack some of the hills for a simulated 5K race. Really drop the hammer at mile 2.7ish and leave it all out there. Picture fetal position in your own puke sort of effort at the end.

So I went out tonight and followed your advice. Ran 3.2 and ran as hard as I can. To illustrate, I came home and laid on the floor, pretty dizzy, and my 3 year old daughter promptly stepped on my belly. I just about puked right then and there. Anyway:

The first quarter mile was pretty much an uphill run. I laid into that hill as hard as I could: max heart rate here was 217. I then hit the top of the hill, so the next mile was downhill and then flat. Heart rate in this area was in the neighborhood of 171ish. The next 3/4 mile is a steady incline, so I slowed a bit here, but still tried to push as best I could. My heart rate at this point was 180ish. From there to about the 2.7 mark was a downhill: heart rate is going back toward the low 170's. At 2.7 I push it as hard as I can. The first half of this section was a little downhill, followed by a steady incline for the last bit. I'm running hard, but I'm definitely running out of gas. The highest I hit in this stretch is 187 bpm.

It was also pretty dang cold out there: about 17 degrees.

As Wilked mentioned, that 217 is most likely a false reading. Happens a lot in this dry winter air. 187 may be close. Assuming 187, for now (you should try to confirm it at a couple of actual 5K races), I'd suggest this:

Recovery: < 126

Long Run: <=140

MP: 150-159

Tempo/HMP: 159-169

Speed: >170

Ok, thanks for the info. The Recovery heart rate worries me a bit. The only way I can be below 126 is if I walk. So if that's what it takes, it that your suggestion?

I was surprised you 'only' hit 187 on your test based on your comments about how that 162 run felt, but you gotta start somewhere. That's why I said you should confirm it in an actual 5K race sometime. That 5K would be a good speed workout for your HM training also........

You might be surprised after a few attempts that you can run that low. I used to despise Recovery runs because I felt like an idiot going that slow, but just like anything else you'll adapt. They're down right therapeutic for me nowadays.

Ok. Thanks!

 

[ChiefD]

Chief, if it's really, truly recovery, then you won't mind that snail's-like pace (e.g., catching a few miles in the days after a hard event). Most days will be in that long run zone, and you're still working to sort out that zone. My HR max is in the low 190s, and my long, slow runs tend to be in the 140-145 HR range. They're just poke-along runs and feel quite useless ...but I know good things are happening internally in the development of my aerobic engine.

Chief, aren't you doing a Hal Higdon training schedule? (Maybe I'm getting you confused with someone else.) I don't think those programs even have recovery runs. Plenty of Easy Runs which can be defined a little different. I found this on Higdon's site:

Easy Runs: The runs on Tuesdays and Thursdays and sometimes Saturdays are designed to be done at a comfortable pace. Don't worry about how fast you run these workouts. Run easy! If you're training with a friend, the two of you should be able to hold a conversation. If you can't do that, you're running too fast. (For those wearing heart rate monitors, your target zone should be between 65 and 75 percent of your maximum pulse rate.)

Not that there aren't advantages to mixing in recovery runs -- there certainly can be. I guess I'm just now sure how you're doing that.

Yeah, I'm using the Higdon advanced plan. I've been treating the Monday runs as a recovery run I guess, since it's coming on the heels of my long run on Sunday. The other days I'm running easy runs, but I've been trying to run those at a slower heart rate also.

It sounds like I just need to trust the low heart rate runs no matter how slow the pace is to me.

 

[worrierking]

Went for my MRI early this morning. Turns out the order from my doc did not include the dye test, which ####ed me off to no end. If the regular MRI doesn't show anything and I still have pain in 3-4 weeks do I have to pay for another one?

That being said, my hip feels better today than it has in weeks. I am actually starting to feel optimistic that my complete rest (and continued beer binge) is going to pay dividends. Doc appointment Friday and I am hoping he sends me to PT, whether something shows on the MRI or not.

Chief, if it's really, truly recovery, then you won't mind that snail's-like pace (e.g., catching a few miles in the days after a hard event). Most days will be in that long run zone, and you're still working to sort out that zone. My HR max is in the low 190s, and my long, slow runs tend to be in the 140-145 HR range. They're just poke-along runs and feel quite useless ...but I know good things are happening internally in the development of my aerobic engine.

My HR rate numbers are just like Tri Man's. Max 192-3, and I try to stay below 145 on easy and long days. Of course that's a slower pace for me than Tri-Man, and it was pretty slow feeling when I started, but I now consider that the most important part of my training.

 

[Hang 10]

Chief, if it's really, truly recovery, then you won't mind that snail's-like pace (e.g., catching a few miles in the days after a hard event). Most days will be in that long run zone, and you're still working to sort out that zone. My HR max is in the low 190s, and my long, slow runs tend to be in the 140-145 HR range. They're just poke-along runs and feel quite useless ...but I know good things are happening internally in the development of my aerobic engine.

Chief, aren't you doing a Hal Higdon training schedule? (Maybe I'm getting you confused with someone else.) I don't think those programs even have recovery runs. Plenty of Easy Runs which can be defined a little different. I found this on Higdon's site:

Easy Runs: The runs on Tuesdays and Thursdays and sometimes Saturdays are designed to be done at a comfortable pace. Don't worry about how fast you run these workouts. Run easy! If you're training with a friend, the two of you should be able to hold a conversation. If you can't do that, you're running too fast. (For those wearing heart rate monitors, your target zone should be between 65 and 75 percent of your maximum pulse rate.)

Not that there aren't advantages to mixing in recovery runs -- there certainly can be. I guess I'm just now sure how you're doing that.

Yeah, I'm using the Higdon advanced plan. I've been treating the Monday runs as a recovery run I guess, since it's coming on the heels of my long run on Sunday. The other days I'm running easy runs, but I've been trying to run those at a slower heart rate also.

It sounds like I just need to trust the low heart rate runs no matter how slow the pace is to me.

I was planning on the using the Higdon advanced plan before I had knee problems. How do you like it? What's your goal time again?

 

[ChiefD]

Chief, if it's really, truly recovery, then you won't mind that snail's-like pace (e.g., catching a few miles in the days after a hard event). Most days will be in that long run zone, and you're still working to sort out that zone. My HR max is in the low 190s, and my long, slow runs tend to be in the 140-145 HR range. They're just poke-along runs and feel quite useless ...but I know good things are happening internally in the development of my aerobic engine.

Chief, aren't you doing a Hal Higdon training schedule? (Maybe I'm getting you confused with someone else.) I don't think those programs even have recovery runs. Plenty of Easy Runs which can be defined a little different. I found this on Higdon's site:

Easy Runs: The runs on Tuesdays and Thursdays and sometimes Saturdays are designed to be done at a comfortable pace. Don't worry about how fast you run these workouts. Run easy! If you're training with a friend, the two of you should be able to hold a conversation. If you can't do that, you're running too fast. (For those wearing heart rate monitors, your target zone should be between 65 and 75 percent of your maximum pulse rate.)

Not that there aren't advantages to mixing in recovery runs -- there certainly can be. I guess I'm just now sure how you're doing that.

Yeah, I'm using the Higdon advanced plan. I've been treating the Monday runs as a recovery run I guess, since it's coming on the heels of my long run on Sunday. The other days I'm running easy runs, but I've been trying to run those at a slower heart rate also.

It sounds like I just need to trust the low heart rate runs no matter how slow the pace is to me.

I was planning on the using the Higdon advanced plan before I had knee problems. How do you like it? What's your goal time again?

I like it just fine. Introducing the slow runs like these guys have preached has help a ton to keep my legs fresh. I used the intermediate plan last time, but I trained hard every run. So my legs seemed a lot more dead last fall.

The advanced plan has an extra day of running, so I'm running 6 days a week, but my legs have been fresh the whole time for the most part. I attribute that to the advice of the guys around here to slow it down.

The first half I did last spring was 2:05. My last half was 1:52 in the fall, so I want to be somewhere in the 140's. Mid 140's if possible.

 

[Sand]

That Adidas watch has been super tempting. I'm so sick of my MOTOACTV and all its quirky bugs. I'm too addicted to the 6 data elements on the screen to give it up.

Don't jump on that until they work out the GPS bugs. Read DCrainmaker - they have had significant issues there. But, yeah, GPS+optical HR+bluetooth tunes =

 

[Sand]

On a realted-ish topic, after seeing an add for the Nike + Fuel Band I was one click away from proceeding to checkout to buy one, but hit up the Rainmaker right before I did. So glad I did, as the #### thing is only water resistant. I was so hoping to have a gadget that tracked everything (if you look it up, they even tested ####ing, ####ing and other non-traditional exercises).

So they tested it twice? Damn, not much stamina in the reviewer...

 

[tri-man 47]

On a realted-ish topic, after seeing an add for the Nike + Fuel Band I was one click away from proceeding to checkout to buy one, but hit up the Rainmaker right before I did. So glad I did, as the #### thing is only water resistant. I was so hoping to have a gadget that tracked everything (if you look it up, they even tested ####ing, ####ing and other non-traditional exercises).

So they tested it twice? Damn, not much stamina in the reviewer...

Or based on my life experience, they did the same test at 90 day intervals.

 

[2Young2BBald]

On a realted-ish topic, after seeing an add for the Nike + Fuel Band I was one click away from proceeding to checkout to buy one, but hit up the Rainmaker right before I did. So glad I did, as the #### thing is only water resistant. I was so hoping to have a gadget that tracked everything (if you look it up, they even tested ####ing, ####ing and other non-traditional exercises).

So they tested it twice? Damn, not much stamina in the reviewer...

Only if you S### when you F###. You southerners are so different.

 

[BassNBrew]

Early in the run heartrate is often high (due to bad contacts...you need to gain some sweat to get a good reading)

God I can't wait to get rid of my damn chest strap. I hate the damn thing. Two months and it is gone forever!

Too lazy to search at the moment and know you are a gear/research ho like me. Has DC Rainmaker reviewed the wrist monitor yet?

Holla, you ho.

Not a full up review, but good enough for me. Evidently the release date is in April and the battery capacity is up to ~10 hours. No matter - I'm on the list to get notified about preorders and will be getting one first thing.

On a realted-ish topic, after seeing an add for the Nike + Fuel Band I was one click away from proceeding to checkout to buy one, but hit up the Rainmaker right before I did. So glad I did, as the #### thing is only water resistant. I was so hoping to have a gadget that tracked everything (if you look it up, they even tested ####ing, ####ing and other non-traditional exercises).

Suunto watch does it all including swim stroke count.

 

[FUBAR]

Sand - Awesome. I'll put that on my list fo' sho.

Man, swimming sucks. I'm slower now than I was a few months ago, having taken January off. I'm overthinking my stroke / elbow bend and time of breathing. I should get a coach, but I'm cheap. Probably need to get in the pool more than 2x / week but that's tough with a marathon next month.