Ran a 10k in June (7 Viewers)

[beer 302]

This place is better than Runners World after race day. Great job Steve!

 

[Ned]

Don't think it's an elite vs weekend warrior issue. It's faster twitch vs slower twitch with incredible VO2 max. I knew some 1:25 weekend warrior type Half marathoners who couldn't or would barely break 20 in a 5k yet 1:25 is repeating 20:20 5ks or so. Obviously to get to elite you have to have some speed. But incredible VO2 max more important in the long races. Some long distance elites can barely break 4:20 in a mile.

Steve has a good combo of both. Most of us have one or the other.

I agree that everyone is going to be stronger in one discipline or another, but it's not really about VO2max at longer races. Being able to keep a higher percentage of your 5K pace for longer distances is all about the percentage of your VO2max you're able to use (i.e. Lactate Threshold). It may seem like a nitpick, but its a huge difference.

I've linked this a few times now (original credit goes to grue), but this is a fantastic read and worth the time if you want to fully understand how guys like Steve and your 1:25 buddy do it. My Link

 

[worrierking]

Don't think it's an elite vs weekend warrior issue. It's faster twitch vs slower twitch with incredible VO2 max. I knew some 1:25 weekend warrior type Half marathoners who couldn't or would barely break 20 in a 5k yet 1:25 is repeating 20:20 5ks or so. Obviously to get to elite you have to have some speed. But incredible VO2 max more important in the long races. Some long distance elites can barely break 4:20 in a mile.

Steve has a good combo of both. Most of us have one or the other.

I agree that everyone is going to be stronger in one discipline or another, but it's not really about VO2max at longer races. Being able to keep a higher percentage of your 5K pace for longer distances is all about the percentage of your VO2max you're able to use (i.e. Lactate Threshold). It may seem like a nitpick, but its a huge difference.

I've linked this a few times now (original credit goes to grue), but this is a fantastic read and worth the time if you want to fully understand how guys like Steve and your 1:25 buddy do it. My Link

I knew it was the famous Hadd document before I clicked. Essential reading.

 

[koby925]

Don't think it's an elite vs weekend warrior issue. It's faster twitch vs slower twitch with incredible VO2 max. I knew some 1:25 weekend warrior type Half marathoners who couldn't or would barely break 20 in a 5k yet 1:25 is repeating 20:20 5ks or so. Obviously to get to elite you have to have some speed. But incredible VO2 max more important in the long races. Some long distance elites can barely break 4:20 in a mile.

Steve has a good combo of both. Most of us have one or the other.

I agree that everyone is going to be stronger in one discipline or another, but it's not really about VO2max at longer races. Being able to keep a higher percentage of your 5K pace for longer distances is all about the percentage of your VO2max you're able to use (i.e. Lactate Threshold). It may seem like a nitpick, but its a huge difference.

I've linked this a few times now (original credit goes to grue), but this is a fantastic read and worth the time if you want to fully understand how guys like Steve and your 1:25 buddy do it. My Link

Thanks. Yes I admittedly didn't use the correct terminology. I do go on LR occassionally too - who posted that? Anyway, a good read that I skimmed. It still seems to put too much emphasis on training, though. Obviously, training correctly is really important. But there will be some genetic differences because of the fast twitch and VO2 max capabilities a certain person has. If he read my best times for say, 400m-3000m at my peak, he would have maintained something ridiculous like that I could run a 29:30 10k. But I'm telling you that even if I had Alberto Salazar training me and a team of people watching how I trained/ate/slept around the clock, I wasn't genetically able to run a sub 30 10k. Call it V02 Max, my LT or whatever you want to call it, I wasn't capable of it. There's a reason why fewer middle distance guys excel with the leap from high school to college cross country. The gap between their ability to hold fast pace over a 5k vs the slower twich guy who thinks a 5k is fast is lessened as the distance moves up to 8k and 10k.

 

[BassNBrew]

Congrats Steve. Very impressive result.

 

[Prince Myshkin]

Wow, some good stuff going on in here.

Ned, I know it wasn't the time you were looking for but you really went for it and that's impressive. Gutting it out through the final miles shows big time toughness that I'm sure will help you down the road.

Steve...your times blow my mind. Amazing to see you doing so well so soon after those injuries!

Still easing back into it on my end. I'm still frustrated with my lack of fitness, but I'm still better off than a year ago at this point. Running 3-4 miles 3 or 4 times a week right now. Pace is slow, HR is high, but I'm chugging through miles without achilles pain!

 

[Ned]

Don't think it's an elite vs weekend warrior issue. It's faster twitch vs slower twitch with incredible VO2 max. I knew some 1:25 weekend warrior type Half marathoners who couldn't or would barely break 20 in a 5k yet 1:25 is repeating 20:20 5ks or so. Obviously to get to elite you have to have some speed. But incredible VO2 max more important in the long races. Some long distance elites can barely break 4:20 in a mile.

Steve has a good combo of both. Most of us have one or the other.

I agree that everyone is going to be stronger in one discipline or another, but it's not really about VO2max at longer races. Being able to keep a higher percentage of your 5K pace for longer distances is all about the percentage of your VO2max you're able to use (i.e. Lactate Threshold). It may seem like a nitpick, but its a huge difference.

I've linked this a few times now (original credit goes to grue), but this is a fantastic read and worth the time if you want to fully understand how guys like Steve and your 1:25 buddy do it. My Link

Thanks. Yes I admittedly didn't use the correct terminology. I do go on LR occassionally too - who posted that? Anyway, a good read that I skimmed. It still seems to put too much emphasis on training, though. Obviously, training correctly is really important. But there will be some genetic differences because of the fast twitch and VO2 max capabilities a certain person has. If he read my best times for say, 400m-3000m at my peak, he would have maintained something ridiculous like that I could run a 29:30 10k. But I'm telling you that even if I had Alberto Salazar training me and a team of people watching how I trained/ate/slept around the clock, I wasn't genetically able to run a sub 30 10k. Call it V02 Max, my LT or whatever you want to call it, I wasn't capable of it. There's a reason why fewer middle distance guys excel with the leap from high school to college cross country. The gap between their ability to hold fast pace over a 5k vs the slower twich guy who thinks a 5k is fast is lessened as the distance moves up to 8k and 10k.

I absolutely agree with you on the genetic capabilities piece of it, but the point of me posting the article was to show that most of us weekend warriors have weak relationships between our PRs. You may have skimmed by it, but he points out that not everyone is going to be able to hold up to the Horwill standard of 16sec/mi.

The point I want to stress is the existence of a relationship. I don’t hold hard and fast to Horwill’s 16 secs/mile (as I have shown, for better runners it might be 12-15 secs/mile or tighter still). But I do agree with his concept of a relationship between performances at all distances.

I calculated mine out a while back and it came out to 0:23/mi from 5K to HM. I fall apart after 13.1mi. Which according to Hadd, I'm just not there aerobically, yet. If I had the aerobic training, that would equate to a 3:16 full.

 

[Annyong]

So I'm finding it really hard to get out there and run in the cold. working 13-14 hours a day with a 2 year old and a 9 month old prolly doesnt help either.

 

[koby925]

Agree, Ned, it is interesting to read and does have some credence. My 5k/HM split was somewhat close to his old runner example, though my relationships weren't as poor. I went up :39 secs a mile between 5k and Half. I admittedly could have trained a bit better for the Half but even in optimal training shape I think my splits would be higher than :32 secs a mile. And I actually think the correlation works LESS for elites and sub elites. Using his calculations, you'd have a bunch of sub 4 minute milers running sub 60 in a Half and guys in the 4:10-4:15 range running 61 or 62 or so in the Half. There are loads of people in US HS and colleges that can run 4:10-4:15 but not many people who can run 60-62 in a Half in the entire world.

 

[Sand]

So I'm finding it really hard to get out there and run in the cold. working 13-14 hours a day with a 2 year old and a 9 month old prolly doesnt help either.

Tell the penis to HTFU, get into some running tights, and take you out running.

 

[koby925]

Ok my math was a little off. Still, the 4 minute milers would all be running 62 Halfs and the 4:10-4:15 group would all be running 64-65 in Halfs.

 

[SteveC702]

Thanks guys, first things first, want to thank you guys for providing all the support, motivation, and training ideas that it's taken to get back to my form from earlier in the year. It definitely wasn't easy slogging away on the bike when I was hurt or restraining myself to 3-4 mile runs when my PT finally cleared me to run. But seeing everyone on here running PRs left and right while balancing all the demands from other areas of your life helped me put my struggles in perspective. Over the last few weeks it was just a combination of really being good with my diet to trim off (most of) the 20 lbs I put on while injured, being patient and chipping away a few seconds here and there in workouts/races, and really doing all the small things like rolling/stretching/strengthening/weights to prevent that damn injury from coming back.

I am still in Vegas with the wife and basically undoing the gains from my strict diet over the last few weeks, but wanted to say a quick thank you and also to chime in on the LT/VO2 max debate.

1) I agree genetics play a huge role, although it does in running in general. But I am a huge believer that you can make significant changes in how well you handle specific distances/workouts through training.

2) Ned, I am running into the same issue as you where my HM pace is 5k pace + 20s/mi but my marathon is 37s/mi slower than my half. I am still trying to solve this mystery as well. I feel like I do enough MP work but something is not clicking, I have some ideas I am bouncing around with a friend for my next marathon, but will share those if it works out.

(Warning: this one is long)

3) similar message to #1, you lose what you don't train. Looking back at my training the last 5 years, I can definitely see how I got from being a mid-distance guy to having the HM become my best event. In HS/college I was basically a slower version of Koby, with the 1500 being my best event. Most calculators would say off of my 1500/mile I should be a 15:10-15:15 5k, and a mid-25 8k guy. I barely broke 16 once and 26:5x was a good day for me on the XC course.

However, when I started up again a few years later, I was doing a lot of slow running with some progressions runs that touched on MP/LT pace towards the end. Then my wife wanted to run a marathon so I was doing primarily LT/MP work as well. I did want to run the Shamrock Shuffle that same year so I snuck in some 800s@goal 5k-8k pace. I ended up not running Shamrock since that was the blizzard year (the Chicago folks probably remember) but I did run a 10k a few weeks later in 34:51. According to McMillan this was worth a 2:43 marathon, so figuring I has done the long runs and threshold work I made this my marathon goal. I went out in 81:4x and came back in 1:43 for a 3:05. I was annoyed but chalked it up to a bad race, 3 months later I decided to run another one at what I considered to be a "conservative" first half. I went 85-87 for a 2:52.

I decided to take a break from the full that fall and concentrate on the half. I did some sort of tempo every week (usually 2 sessions) and when I did other types of workouts it was short (like 2-3xmile @ 5k). I ended up lowering my HM to about 75:36, which is a 3-4minn PR at the time. I hopped in a 5k around that time but ran about 20-30s slower than what my HM equivalent would be. I think this is when my HM started to become my "better" event.

The following spring I ran Boston for the first time but has to walk a few times after heartbreak hill because of some really bad hamstring cramps. I swore off the marathon for the next 18 months and did a summer of speed, with lower mileage and more VO2 and mile paced work my 5k/10k times became my better marks again.

My wife again wanted to do a marathon in late 2011, and I again underperformed in the full but ran another 2 minute PR in the half that winter. I heard about the USA half champs the following summer having a 70-min qualification standard, so that was pretty much my focus in 2012 and 2013. Since the beginning of 2012 I have lowered my 5k by 12s but my half by 2:18. If I had to venture a guess, I would say my workouts over the last 2 years has been about 60% LT/HM, 25% MP, 10% VO2, 5% speed. It's not a huge mystery why the HM became my best event. The thing I am realizing is that eventually my VO2max is going to be the limiting factor if I want to take that next step with my running, so I need to find room for it in my training over the next few months even if my goal races are HM/26.2 and really do the summer of speed after Boston that I intended to do this past summer.

PS sorry for the ridiculously long post, but hopefully the story/progression kind of showed how I went from a mediocre miler to a semi-respectable half-marathoner.

 

[Ned]

Ok my math was a little off. Still, the 4 minute milers would all be running 62 Halfs and the 4:10-4:15 group would all be running 64-65 in Halfs.

I wouldn't get too hung up on the 0:16. Just that we should all have some sort of relationship across distances is all.

 

[SteveC702]

Oh yeah Ned I'll try to get you some HR data too, probably from workouts or smaller races as I try to go as light as possible for my races. I am also curious how my HR from my bike workouts this summer lines up with my actual HR in running workouts

 

[Sand]

Oh yeah Ned I'll try to get you some HR data too, probably from workouts or smaller races as I try to go as light as possible for my races. I am also curious how my HR from my bike workouts this summer lines up with my actual HR in running workouts

Bike HR generally averages lower because you aren't supporting as much weight, but has higher variability (at least here with all our hills).

 

[Ned]

It's interesting that we ended up in the same place, Steve, but with totally opposite approaches... Awesome read!

I was a slow 200/400m HS runner. 22.9 200 and 53.6 400, IIRC. I dabbled in HS XC and had a 21:19 PR. FF 15yrs to 2010 and I was married with kids and 40# overweight. Did P90x in Feb 2010 to lose the weight and ran a few 5Ks on a whim. Got hooked again and ran Philly HM in Nov 2010 in 1:52. From there on out, I dedicated myself to the marathon and doing ~85% LSD, ~10% LT, ~5% racing and/or VO2max work.

With little to no speed work, my 5K PR is now ~90sec faster than I ever was in HS (19:42). I think a lot of that is we just weren't properly trained in HS along with me not really taking it seriously back then. I too feel like the 15K-HM distance is my bread and butter right now. Why? The hell if I know!

Please share as you work through the experimenting. I love learning more....

 

[SteveC702]

And my last point about losing what you don't train was actually not supported by my actual post... Figures.

The point I was trying to make when I started typing up that section is while I got into the best shape of my life for 5k-marathon, I ran 18s slower than my college mile PR in my one attempt at the distance last summer. I knew I was in trouble when I was doing 8-10x400 workouts about 2 months out and I was running 70-72s instead of 65-68s like I did 10 years ago. The problem with doing 400s is my body doesn't hold up quite as well after hard track workouts anymore (I think Koby might have mentioned something similar?) so it's going to be a tough balancing act between doing enough speedwork to stimulate development in that area and staying healthy.

 

[SteveC702]

Sand what if I was biking on an indoor stationary bike? I had it around the medium resistance levels so I don't know how well that would stimulate hills. I just wanted to do something that got my HR up to keep in shape.

 

[worrierking]

The Hadd document and McMillan ratios for different distances are really interesting to me. If Greg McMillan ever met me he would hate me as the guy who makes his calculator look terrible.

I am primarily interested in the marathon and it is essentially all I train for. It's pretty much a year-round activity for me. Yet, as I add mileage and do many of the things Hadd suggests, my ratio from shorter races to the marathon gets further out of whack. I make more gains in the shorter distances than I do at the Marathon, even though I rarely train for specific shorter races. If I do, it's only briefly, like now when i have a half I am targeting in mid-December. It will end up being about 6 weekes in which i am training for the half, while at the same time maintaining my marathon peak mileage.

My PR paces (all in the last 2 years)

5k 7:20

4 Miles 7:17

5 Miles 7:38

10k 7:45

Half 8:05

Marathon 9:38

McMillan thinks I should run a marathon at a pace about a minute per mile faster than I can right now.

 

[Sand]

Sand what if I was biking on an indoor stationary bike? I had it around the medium resistance levels so I don't know how well that would stimulate hills. I just wanted to do something that got my HR up to keep in shape.

Closer to running as you really don't coast much on a stationary bike. But a tempo bike workout will be a bit lower HR than a tempo run. You are just using more musculature running as you are supporting all of your weight rather than ~half.

That said out on the road riding with real folks I suffer a lot more on the bike than running.

 

[FUBAR]

This, or this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KTEgLKhjIw

 

[SFBayDuck]

2013 Philly Marathon

Miles 14-18: 7:39/172, 7:57/173, 7:51/175, 7:51/176, 9:30/176 30K split = 2:24:48 (3:23 pace)

Shortly after the 30K mat, we enter Manyunk. Energy levels fell off a cliff and I was instantly in survival mode.

Miles 19-26.2: 8:10/176, 8:28/175, 8:45/174, 8:38/173, 8:58/171, 8:52/168, 9:24/171, 9:25/175, final 0.2 'sprint' 8:17/175

Ned, I recognize how tough it is to make early in-race adjustments. You saw the higher HR, but took the good gamble to give it a shot.

Having recently bonked myself in mile 20 of my last marathon, I feel your pain! When the energy's gone ...it's just gone. I see signs here in miles 23-25 that your body was trying to stay at the 171 average HR you had been carrying along. With no fuel, your body was saying "that's the limit." So what's extremely impressive to me is how you fought through that in miles 17-22. Despite seeking external triggers from the runners around you, the battle was internal, as evidenced in miles 20-22 as the pace climbed and the HR slowly came down. That was a battle you could not win. But dang, you tried! And those last ten miles demonstrate what a fighter you are! Be proud of that great effort and solid time.

This is an awesome post, appreciate you taking the time to analyze. Very good observation on the 171 number. It's right where I've always felt my limits were for MP'ing. When I run MP training runs, I always target mid 160s, but never let it go past 170. If anything, its a good confirmation.

It also brings back a lot of the feelings I had yesterday while I was going through it. I'm just really stubborn and dumb when it comes to this, but the bolded part always pisses me off. I refuse to admit I can't win, to a fault. I got pretty damn angry at mile 17 when I realized I just didn't have it. I think Hang 10 might be able to attest to this since it seems to come out in his posts... But damn it man, I instinctively just want to hammer through it. But in the end we're human, not robots.

That's a big part of this game that I love - testing your limits. Pass or fail, its fun to try. We all have different levels of talent, but everyone's got the same end game. Find your limit.

Sorry I'm hogging the thread - this was just a big learning experience all around. Hope others benefit from my stubbornness.

This. Well said.

 

[SFBayDuck]

Rock n Roll Las Vegas Half-Marathon Report

Mile splits for miles 1-3, 5K: 5:22 - 5:16 - 5:14 (16:26 5K)

Miles 4-6, 10K: 5:16 - 5:17 - 5:26 (33:01 10K. 2nd fastest 10K ever)

Miles 6-10: 5:18 - 5:22 - 5:26 - 5:30 (53:27 10-mile. First PR of 2013!)

Miles 11-13.1: 5:31 - 5:38 - 5:39 - 34 (70:49 on my watch, 70:45 officially)

So I missed by A/B/C goals, but to be honest I was still pretty happy with the race. I went out hard and was shooting for a 60-90s PR and still managed to hang on and had a shot at a new PR with a mile to go, and to come all the way back from not even being able to handle this pace for more than 1.5 miles 3 months ago. I still don't know how it all happened, but I sure as hell hope I can close out the year with a PR or two before making some major breakthroughs in 2014.

This is like reading a foreign language....I simply cannot comprehend this.

Congrats on what has to be a pretty satisfying race consider the challenges you faced this year. Looking forward to reading about those upcoming PRs.

 

[Juxtatarot]

The Hadd document and McMillan ratios for different distances are really interesting to me. If Greg McMillan ever met me he would hate me as the guy who makes his calculator look terrible.

I am primarily interested in the marathon and it is essentially all I train for. It's pretty much a year-round activity for me. Yet, as I add mileage and do many of the things Hadd suggests, my ratio from shorter races to the marathon gets further out of whack. I make more gains in the shorter distances than I do at the Marathon, even though I rarely train for specific shorter races. If I do, it's only briefly, like now when i have a half I am targeting in mid-December. It will end up being about 6 weekes in which i am training for the half, while at the same time maintaining my marathon peak mileage.

My PR paces (all in the last 2 years)

5k 7:20

4 Miles 7:17

5 Miles 7:38

10k 7:45

Half 8:05

Marathon 9:38

McMillan thinks I should run a marathon at a pace about a minute per mile faster than I can right now.

Wow! Haven't you often had injury and weather issues with the marathon? I'll shocked at the jump there.

My PR paces are more in line with where they should be, I think. 5K: 6:00, 10K: 6:18, HM: 6:41, M: 7:04.

I'm curious to see the PR paces of others in the thread.

 

[MAC_32]

Well, even if I find that extra gear I've been missing lately it looks like it won't translate into that PR time Sunday. Coldest day of the year on tap (low to mid 20's at race time), winds up to 30 mph - going dead into it for the second half of the race, expected windchill in the single digits, and could be up to 6" of snow on the ground.

I'll be racing people this weekend, not the clock.

 

[koby925]

Old man pace PRs

5k - 5:37

10k - 6:05

HM - 6:16

M - NA

Obviously my 10k is the weak link. I've only raced it once and it was high heat and humidity on July 4th.

 

[Ned]

Old man pace PRs

5k - 5:37

10k - 6:05

HM - 6:16

M - NA

Obviously my 10k is the weak link. I've only raced it once and it was high heat and humidity on July 4th.

Now I see.... Your 0:39 gap from the earlier post was the total, not the actual relationship (0:20). Pretty damn good, IMO. So your 10K is most likely around a 5:57. You're selling your endurance way short!

I haven't raced a 10K in 3 years, but it should be around a 6:44ish.

5K: 6:21

HM: 7:05

FM: 8:04

 

[Ned]

This, or this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KTEgLKhjIw

good god

 

[koby925]

Old man pace PRs

5k - 5:37

10k - 6:05

HM - 6:16

M - NA

Obviously my 10k is the weak link. I've only raced it once and it was high heat and humidity on July 4th.

Now I see.... Your 0:39 gap from the earlier post was the total, not the actual relationship (0:20). Pretty damn good, IMO. So your 10K is most likely around a 5:57. You're selling your endurance way short!

I haven't raced a 10K in 3 years, but it should be around a 6:44ish.

5K: 6:21

HM: 7:05

FM: 8:04

Right. But going by his 16 sec per mile per relationship - 5k to 10k and 10k to Half - I should have a 32 second total gap, not 39 seconds, right?

 

[Hang 10]

5K - 6:10

10K - 6:20

HM - 7:03

M - 8:13 (one race at this distance)

I've got some work to do on my long distance races.

 

[Ned]

Old man pace PRs

5k - 5:37

10k - 6:05

HM - 6:16

M - NA

Obviously my 10k is the weak link. I've only raced it once and it was high heat and humidity on July 4th.

Now I see.... Your 0:39 gap from the earlier post was the total, not the actual relationship (0:20). Pretty damn good, IMO. So your 10K is most likely around a 5:57. You're selling your endurance way short!

I haven't raced a 10K in 3 years, but it should be around a 6:44ish.

5K: 6:21

HM: 7:05

FM: 8:04

Right. But going by his 16 sec per mile per relationship - 5k to 10k and 10k to Half - I should have a 32 second total gap, not 39 seconds, right?

He used Howill's 16 as the example. But yeah, it would be 32 based on that. You're muuuuch tighter than you led on! Wait, that sounds weird.

 

[tri-man 47]

So I'm finding it really hard to get out there and run in the cold. working 13-14 hours a day with a 2 year old and a 9 month old prolly doesnt help either.

If home with the kids, you could still work on leg strength (lunges and squats) and building the core (pushups, situps, stretching, yoga).

 

[FUBAR]

So I'm finding it really hard to get out there and run in the cold. working 13-14 hours a day with a 2 year old and a 9 month old prolly doesnt help either.

If home with the kids, you could still work on leg strength (lunges and squats) and building the core (pushups, situps, stretching, yoga).

Buy a kettle bell.

 

[MAC_32]

^^^yes to both. Improvise. When time allows, then go run.

 

[parasaurolophus]

I have got to figure out what I need to wear at various temperatures. I am coming back more dripping wet than when it was 90 degrees out.

 

[SteelCurtain]

PR paces

5K - 6:41

10K - 7:03

HM - 7:11

M - 7:59

Not sure what this means, but I think I'm a guy who does better in longer distance races compared to shorter ones.

 

[SteveC702]

Mile - 4:41 / 4:23 (post-collegiate / 1500 equivalent from college)

5k - 5:03

10k - 5:14

HM - 5:23

MAR - 6:00

I guess the 16s rule give me hope for my next marathon attempt, although I "just" need to bring that 37s gap down to 20 to get under that next barrier.

 

[koby925]

Mile - 4:41 / 4:23 (post-collegiate / 1500 equivalent from college)

5k - 5:03

10k - 5:14

HM - 5:23

MAR - 6:00

I guess the 16s rule give me hope for my next marathon attempt, although I "just" need to bring that 37s gap down to 20 to get under that next barrier.

This is amazing to me and was what my original point was. No matter how much I trained, I'd never have a 20 second gap between 5k and Half. If I somehow got my Half pace down, I'm sure my 5k would improve also. So I think I'd always be around at least 35 seconds gap. And this goes to the type of runner I am which can't necessarily be changed with training. On the other end of the spectrum there are guys that no matter how hard they train, they can't run faster than a certain speed on short races. Example, there are sub 30 minute 10k runners who probably struggle to break 2 minutes in the 800. I was breaking 2 minutes junior year in high school but I don't think even at my peak I could've run sub 32 in a 10k.

 

[FUBAR]

It's been a while since I've looked at my PRs, off hand, something like (for my adult life, not counting HS):

2M - 5:32 (college, within the last 5 years would be 5:55)

5K - 6:14

10K - 6:49 (-35)

HM - 7:28 (-39)

M - 8:01 (-33)

Obviously I'm nowhere near the 16 second rule. Guess I need to train more?

So, on seeing these, or similar, numbers, I expect to hear at least one (and maybe both) of two things from the athlete concerned:

1. Low mileage background in training

2. Whatever mileage being done is being run “too fast” (for performance level)

I think this is likely true.

 

[FUBAR]

That is a fascinating read, thanks for posting the link.

Bottom line for me, as I train for a trail marathon in March and ironman - I need to slow down.

To do so, as my comfortable pace in training (10 or less miles) is roughly the same as my half marathon pace, should I get a heart rate monitor and keep it lower than I probably will want to, or should I just consciously stay at a 8:15 or so pace?

 

[Juxtatarot]

That is a fascinating read, thanks for posting the link.

Bottom line for me, as I train for a trail marathon in March and ironman - I need to slow down.

To do so, as my comfortable pace in training (10 or less miles) is roughly the same as my half marathon pace, should I get a heart rate monitor and keep it lower than I probably will want to, or should I just consciously stay at a 8:15 or so pace?

Half marathon pace shouldn't be comfortable.

 

[Ned]

That is a fascinating read, thanks for posting the link.

Bottom line for me, as I train for a trail marathon in March and ironman - I need to slow down.

To do so, as my comfortable pace in training (10 or less miles) is roughly the same as my half marathon pace, should I get a heart rate monitor and keep it lower than I probably will want to, or should I just consciously stay at a 8:15 or so pace?

Step right into my office.... Most hate it and think it's hocus-pocus, but I fully believe in training by HR. I've saved this off for the times someone asks about HR. My Link The new board butchered the formatting, so I copied it below.

Ran 7miles at 9:00 per today. This might have been my longest run ever. Yay to me. Since I started my 500 miles quest, any run over 5 miles has been around a 9:30 pace so I'm happy to see progress. Now I just have to try and keep running consistently with my 2nd child due in just 2 weeks. Questions: What do I need to know about my heart rate? Never have I ever paid any attention to it but it seems to be all the rage around here.

:supernerd: I'm going to write this up and it'll get long winded, but I'm going to save this for future use since it comes up a lot. I'll caveat this with you should have a good understanding of all of the various workouts and the purpose of each one before worrying about training by HR. Since the basis of HR training is to help you get into the right zone for the prescribed workout, you need to understand what the workout is intended to do before you go worrying about your HR.Even if you're not going to run a marathon, I strongly suggest reading the first 4 chapters of Advanced Marathoning. It's an outstanding breakdown of how to train and the science behind it. Those 4 chapters are well worth the $10.

That said, HR is basically nothing more than an indicator of how hard your body is working at that point in time. The higher it is, the harder you're working. There can be other factors that can affect it such as hydration, stress, fatigue, etc, but generally speaking it's that simple. You can train by HR, based on certain ranges or zones. You can make it as simple or as complicated as you want it to be, depending on how accurate you want to get. The sole purpose of training by HR is to ensure you're in the correct zone for the workout you're doing. By staying in that proper zone, you're getting the most out of that workout. This is why it's important to understand what each workout is all about before diving into HR training.

There are a lot of theories out there, but I believe the best bang for your buck is to base it on your mHR and then tweak as you collect more data/learn about yourself. To go about this, you first need to get your max HR (mHR) and then calculate the training ranges based off of that. Most people don't realize how hard it is to find your true mHR and end up relying on the cheesy formulas out there. While those might work for the majority of people, I think its a major mistake. I always suggest wearing your HR monitor (HRM) at a 5K and go all out. If you aren't wanting to die and holding back puke at the end, you're probably not getting to your mHR. It may take a few tries, but you'll get to your mHR pretty quickly this way. Plus you get some race experience out of it.

Once you know your mHR, you can calculate the various training zones. The theories on these zones vary, but this is what has evolved for me. These are the upper limits of each range. I try to stay a shade below these, but too many factors come into play to hit on things perfectly every time.

Recovery = <70% mHR

Long Run = <75% mHR

General Aerobic = <80% mHR

Marathon Pace = <86% mHR

Lactate Threshold = <91% mHR

VO2max = >91% mHR

When you're running, your HR is going to vary a lot based on how hard you're pushing at the time, what you're thinking about (if I think about racing my HR will spike immediately), how hot/cold it is, hills, wind, etc. So you don't need to get hung up on it being exactly at a certain number. It's never going to happen. For example, my mHR is 195, so I target 147 or below for a long run. I like to keep it in the lower 140s and let it drift higher when conditions are affecting me.

A few links if you want to read more. Some are different opinions than what I've written...

HR Training Pitfalls (Pfitz)

Hadd's approach (Credit to Grue for giving this to me)

She's annoying, but hits it right on the nose. Lots will toss HR training because of what she talks about

 

[gruecd]

Some of you guys may have already seen this article in the October issue of Runner's World, but I thought you'd find it interesting, so I thought I'd pass it along: How to Build Mental Muscle

The basic premise is that you can train your brain much like the way to train your body.

It's not lactate levels in your blood or oxygen shortages in your muscles that force you to slow down, it's how your brain interprets those signals. In other words, the effort of running is only as hard as your brain perceives it to be.

 

[Ned]

That is a fascinating read, thanks for posting the link.

Bottom line for me, as I train for a trail marathon in March and ironman - I need to slow down.

To do so, as my comfortable pace in training (10 or less miles) is roughly the same as my half marathon pace, should I get a heart rate monitor and keep it lower than I probably will want to, or should I just consciously stay at a 8:15 or so pace?

Half marathon pace shouldn't be comfortable.

Yeah..... I can see falling into the trap of running LRs @ MP since they're relatively easy at short distances, but HMP for 10mi would be a killer workout.

 

[FUBAR]

That is a fascinating read, thanks for posting the link.

Bottom line for me, as I train for a trail marathon in March and ironman - I need to slow down.

To do so, as my comfortable pace in training (10 or less miles) is roughly the same as my half marathon pace, should I get a heart rate monitor and keep it lower than I probably will want to, or should I just consciously stay at a 8:15 or so pace?

Half marathon pace shouldn't be comfortable.

I think my biggest problem (maybe it's just mental) is on race day I seem to lack the higher gear. Had the same problem in HS. I can get there for a 2 mile APFT, but beyond that I've had a hard time kicking it up.

 

[beer 302]

So I'm finding it really hard to get out there and run in the cold. working 13-14 hours a day with a 2 year old and a 9 month old prolly doesnt help either.

If home with the kids, you could still work on leg strength (lunges and squats) and building the core (pushups, situps, stretching, yoga).

Try this as well. Neat exercise.

Not to derail the great conversation but has anyone done a Ragnar Trail Race centered around a village? First I'd seen, was sent to me by a co-worker who wants to put together a team.

http://www.ragnartrailrelay.com/locations/atlanta-ga/village

 

[2Young2BBald]

So I'm finding it really hard to get out there and run in the cold. working 13-14 hours a day with a 2 year old and a 9 month old prolly doesnt help either.

If home with the kids, you could still work on leg strength (lunges and squats) and building the core (pushups, situps, stretching, yoga).

Try this as well. Neat exercise.

Not to derail the great conversation but has anyone done a Ragnar Trail Race centered around a village? First I'd seen, was sent to me by a co-worker who wants to put together a team.

http://www.ragnartrailrelay.com/locations/atlanta-ga/village

Finally something I can understand over the last few days This looks ####### amazing and I love idea (Tri-Man, its like DWD without driving all over Hell). If we were not going on a family vacation the next week, I'd b BEGGING for a place on your team. Please do this and report back, I am mentally putting this on the list of want to do events.

 

[FUBAR]

So I'm finding it really hard to get out there and run in the cold. working 13-14 hours a day with a 2 year old and a 9 month old prolly doesnt help either.

If home with the kids, you could still work on leg strength (lunges and squats) and building the core (pushups, situps, stretching, yoga).

Try this as well. Neat exercise.

Not to derail the great conversation but has anyone done a Ragnar Trail Race centered around a village? First I'd seen, was sent to me by a co-worker who wants to put together a team.

http://www.ragnartrailrelay.com/locations/atlanta-ga/village

That race looks awesome! Too bad the timing sucks for me. Maybe next year.

 

[The_Man]

So I'm finding it really hard to get out there and run in the cold. working 13-14 hours a day with a 2 year old and a 9 month old prolly doesnt help either.

I'd fire the 9 month old and replace him with another 2 year old. They keep working harder into the late hours.

 

[Annyong]

So I'm finding it really hard to get out there and run in the cold. working 13-14 hours a day with a 2 year old and a 9 month old prolly doesnt help either.

I'd fire the 9 month old and replace him with another 2 year old. They keep working harder into the late hours.