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Reflections on the failure of the Belichick coaching tree (1 Viewer)

Portis 26

Madden Freak
As we all know, some of the coaching greats established their own coaching "trees" whereby coaches that had been under them went on to go on and prove very successful head coaches in their own rights, and then guys they mentored went on to be successful, and so on.

The most famous example of this would be the Bill Walsh coaching tree - Bill Walsh himself having learned from such greats as Don Coryell and Paul Brown.

Offspring of the Bill Walsh coaching tree include Mike Holmgren, Mike Shanahan, Andy Reid, and many, many others.

Many of the coaches under Bill Belichick have gone on to become head coaches but they have not been very successful. Josh McDaniels and Eric Mangini are the latest cases in point, but you could also include Romeo Crennel and various others.

Why has the Belichick coaching tree not been so successful? You would think that the emphasis on team, on character, on innovation and so forth, would all prove successful.

My theory is that Belichick's offspring have learned the wrong lesson from their master.

Belichick prides himself on taking difficult decisions (benching Bledsoe for Brady, cutting Lawyer Milloy, trading Deion Branch etc) and on not bothering with pretending to be a nice guy - he almost revels in being an old grouch.

The wrong lesson that his disciples are learning therefore is that it's a good thing to take really controversial decisions (see McDaniels trading Cutler, feuding with Marshall) and being a grouch (McDaniels has revelled in his arrogrance, as has Mangini).

The lessons they ought to have learned are team, character, innovation and hard work.

Instead Belichick's guys are taking needlessly controversial decisions and riling everyone up needlessly.

No wonder they haven't done very well.

 
The other teams have like Orton and Brady Quin playing QB, not Tom Brady. You need Tom Brady to be a good coach.
No, you can be good with Bernie Kosar as well.But really this is a good question. I think the difference is that Bill Walsh was a great teacher; he taught players and he taught coaches. I think Belichick is a great coach/teacher for players, especially defensive players, but I'm not sure he is as good at teaching his coaches. Bill Walsh's coaches basically became his disciples.
 
The other teams have like Orton and Brady Quin playing QB, not Tom Brady. You need Tom Brady to be a good coach.
I guess this would be a bad time to point out that Cutler was the QB of one of those teams...which is knid of the point here. Put me down as agreeing with the OP. The problem with Mangini and McD is that they, at the beggining of their head coaching tenders are trying to act like BB did after years of earning it. Several years of experience and success, as well as some Super Bowl trophies, have garnered BB some coaching collateral if you will. McD and Mangini don't have that. They try to demand the respect and trust that BB has earned. It doesn't work that way.
 
The other teams have like Orton and Brady Quin playing QB, not Tom Brady. You need Tom Brady to be a good coach.
exactly, Im pretty sure the Belichick got fired from Cleveland once, correct?
Cleveland hasn't been good since he was fired, and they were pretty good with him.
Belichick had the Browns playing pretty well with Vinny Testaverde at QB, and it's arguable that he only really got fired from Cleveland because the drama of their move to Baltimore impacted the team.
 
People always tried to make him out to be a genius, but he was no Bill Parcells. Speaking of which, the Saints could be the 5th ring (and 3rd coach to win one) under former Parcells coaches.

 
The other teams have like Orton and Brady Quin playing QB, not Tom Brady. You need Tom Brady to be a good coach.
I guess this would be a bad time to point out that Cutler was the QB of one of those teams...which is knid of the point here. Put me down as agreeing with the OP. The problem with Mangini and McD is that they, at the beggining of their head coaching tenders are trying to act like BB did after years of earning it. Several years of experience and success, as well as some Super Bowl trophies, have garnered BB some coaching collateral if you will. McD and Mangini don't have that. They try to demand the respect and trust that BB has earned. It doesn't work that way.
1) BB started off his career like that - So, it DID work that way.2) I don't consider Mangini a failure... He made the playoffs with the Jets - Built a decent Jets team and now is doing the dirty work in Cleveland AND won some games3) McD isn't a failure either.
 
The other teams have like Orton and Brady Quin playing QB, not Tom Brady. You need Tom Brady to be a good coach.
I guess this would be a bad time to point out that Cutler was the QB of one of those teams...which is knid of the point here. Put me down as agreeing with the OP. The problem with Mangini and McD is that they, at the beggining of their head coaching tenders are trying to act like BB did after years of earning it. Several years of experience and success, as well as some Super Bowl trophies, have garnered BB some coaching collateral if you will. McD and Mangini don't have that. They try to demand the respect and trust that BB has earned. It doesn't work that way.
1) BB started off his career like that - So, it DID work that way.2) I don't consider Mangini a failure... He made the playoffs with the Jets - Built a decent Jets team and now is doing the dirty work in Cleveland AND won some games3) McD isn't a failure either.
1) You're right that BB has always been a grouch but whereas he can get away with it now, he couldn't when he started. Got him a very bad rep.2) Not convinced about Mangini. Some real clownish behaviour in Cleveland this year before a late winning streak prompted by his miraculous discovery of Jerome Harrison (how come he didn't notice how good he was before?) I think most of the good signings in NY were not by hum but the then GM.3) Not a success either. Running Cutler out of town was a terrible move. Even though Cutler went on to play poorly for Chicago, I still think he's a franchise QB. He's about to run Brandon Marshall out of town too. You go from Cutler to Marshall to Orton to Gaffney, I'm not sure that's progress.
 
The other teams have like Orton and Brady Quin playing QB, not Tom Brady. You need Tom Brady to be a good coach.
I guess this would be a bad time to point out that Cutler was the QB of one of those teams...which is knid of the point here. Put me down as agreeing with the OP. The problem with Mangini and McD is that they, at the beggining of their head coaching tenders are trying to act like BB did after years of earning it. Several years of experience and success, as well as some Super Bowl trophies, have garnered BB some coaching collateral if you will. McD and Mangini don't have that. They try to demand the respect and trust that BB has earned. It doesn't work that way.
1) BB started off his career like that - So, it DID work that way. No he didn't. First off, I presume you are referring to NE (not his 5 years as HC in Clevland, where BB started) Even if that premise were true, Bledsoe got injured and was an aging veteran, not a 3rd year QB with a great arm. Your statement here is completely false.2) I don't consider Mangini a failure... He made the playoffs with the Jets - Built a decent Jets team and now is doing the dirty work in Cleveland AND won some games Yes, he made the playoffs - his very first year coaching Herm Edwards' team (a team that had been to the playoffs 3 of the previous 5 years under Edawrds). Since that season he has been 18-30 as a head coach - hardly numbers to write home about.

3) McD isn't a failure either.
To your final point about McD - there are only 3 teams in NFL history that have started off 6-0 and ended up 8-8 or worse. McD is now the proud HC of one of those 3 teams. Secondly, he has arguably run 2 of the most talented offensive starters on the team out of town (once Marshall finishes packing up his stuff). He's lost the last 4 games of the regular season - 2 of the teams they lossed to are the Raiders and the Chiefs - both in Denver. Your bar for success is lower than many.
 
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First off, if you are going to compare branches of the two trees, you need to compare all branches of both of them.

Have any of Walsh's branches failed? Does BB have as a many branches as Walsh? Walsh has a pretty long history with a lot of branches, so there might not be a large enough sample size of BB branches with which to make a meaningful comparison.

Second, I can't defend Mangini or Crennell. They both had their chances. But maybe they are truly in the BB mold and it takes some adversity early on for them to mature into good coaches.

As for McDaniels, I don't consider this year, his first, as an indictment. Was the Cutler trade a bad move or were all Cutler's naysayers actually spot on about him? I'm guessing he's actually created a few more naysayers in Chicago at this point. Denver at 8-8 looks pretty good for a team that finished 7-9 in 2007 and then 8-8 last year with Shanahan + Cutler.

 
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If you want to point out the failures you need to also point out the successes.

Nick Saban, Kirk Ferentz and Pat Hill have done tremendous jobs.

 
The other teams have like Orton and Brady Quin playing QB, not Tom Brady. You need Tom Brady to be a good coach.
I guess this would be a bad time to point out that Cutler was the QB of one of those teams...which is knid of the point here. Put me down as agreeing with the OP. The problem with Mangini and McD is that they, at the beggining of their head coaching tenders are trying to act like BB did after years of earning it. Several years of experience and success, as well as some Super Bowl trophies, have garnered BB some coaching collateral if you will. McD and Mangini don't have that. They try to demand the respect and trust that BB has earned. It doesn't work that way.
1) BB started off his career like that - So, it DID work that way. No he didn't. First off, I presume you are referring to NE (not his 5 years as HC in Clevland, where BB started) Even if that premise were true, Bledsoe got injured and was an aging veteran, not a 3rd year QB with a great arm. Your statement here is completely false.I was refering to Bellichiks ATTITUDE in Cleveland.

2) I don't consider Mangini a failure... He made the playoffs with the Jets - Built a decent Jets team and now is doing the dirty work in Cleveland AND won some games Yes, he made the playoffs - his very first year coaching Herm Edwards' team (a team that had been to the playoffs 3 of the previous 5 years under Edawrds). Since that season he has been 18-30 as a head coach - hardly numbers to write home about.

Herm Edwards and Bradway left a mess - Mangini rebuilt that team on the fly and is responsible for most of the Stars of that top defense. Just go player for player and see which guys you can attribute to which regime... In Mangini's 2nd year the team was devastated by injuries and the 3rd year was the Brett Favre experiment that went fine until he got hurt and couldn't be sat.

He got Jenkins, He got Thomas Jones.. He drafted Revis, Mangold, Brick, Harris, Leon Washington, Brad Smith, Keller...

I think Mangini has A GREAT eye for talent.

In Cleveland he got rid of a lot of dead wood - stripped the team down, has picks and still won some games...

3) McD isn't a failure either.
To your final point about McD - there are only 3 teams in NFL history that have started off 6-0 and ended up 8-8 or worse. McD is now the proud HC of one of those 3 teams. Secondly, he has arguably run 2 of the most talented offensive starters on the team out of town (once Marshall finishes packing up his stuff). He's lost the last 4 games of the regular season - 2 of the teams they lossed to are the Raiders and the Chiefs - both in Denver. Your bar for success is lower than many.
Cool.. I just give Head coaches a few years before labeling them a failure
 
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My theory is that Belichick's offspring have learned the wrong lesson from their master.Belichick prides himself on taking difficult decisions (benching Bledsoe for Brady, cutting Lawyer Milloy, trading Deion Branch etc) and on not bothering with pretending to be a nice guy - he almost revels in being an old grouch.The wrong lesson that his disciples are learning therefore is that it's a good thing to take really controversial decisions (see McDaniels trading Cutler, feuding with Marshall) and being a grouch (McDaniels has revelled in his arrogrance, as has Mangini).The lessons they ought to have learned are team, character, innovation and hard work.Instead Belichick's guys are taking needlessly controversial decisions and riling everyone up needlessly.No wonder they haven't done very well.
Posting in agreement without reading the rest of the the thread.Not so much for Weis and Crennel ... but for Mangini and McDaniels -- they seem to believe that being a horse's backside (we can call it "grouch", I guess) is essential to winning. They fail to realize that Belichick is a grouch that succeeds based on other merits -- it's not that being a grouch was the key thing made him successful (in fact, it killed him in Cleveland).
 
If you want to point out the failures you need to also point out the successes. Nick Saban, Kirk Ferentz and Pat Hill have done tremendous jobs.
What's their combined NFL HC record?
Oh so you have to coach in the NFL to be a success? I wasn't aware of this. I thought a lot of good coaches stayed in college because they liked. I had no idea it was because they were unqualified.
 
If you want to point out the failures you need to also point out the successes. Nick Saban, Kirk Ferentz and Pat Hill have done tremendous jobs.
What's their combined NFL HC record?
Oh so you have to coach in the NFL to be a success? I wasn't aware of this. I thought a lot of good coaches stayed in college because they liked. I had no idea it was because they were unqualified.
:eek: :lmao:This better be shtick.
 
If you want to point out the failures you need to also point out the successes. Nick Saban, Kirk Ferentz and Pat Hill have done tremendous jobs.
What's their combined NFL HC record?
Oh so you have to coach in the NFL to be a success? I wasn't aware of this. I thought a lot of good coaches stayed in college because they liked. I had no idea it was because they were unqualified.
:eek: :lmao:This better be shtick.
Seems sensible to me?
 
The OP has a good point about them leaning the wrong lessons. What makes BB successful is not his "system" or his arrogant attitude or his quirky rules or his sweatshirt with the arms cut off. The single biggest reason he is so successful, by far, is that he is a very astute judge of talent. In the end, the teams with the best players are the ones who are going to win. Having a Head Coach and a GM who can work together to put together such a roster is the most important thing any organization can do.

 
How many SB winning coaches have won with more than one QB?
Parcells(2) and Gibbs(3) come to mind, and Parcells went to a third SB with Bledsoe. Did Sefort do it with the Niners?
Yes - 1989 with Montana, 1994 with Steve Young.Someone mentioned Tom Landry upthread ... he WENT TO the SB with Craig Morton (1970) and Roger Staubach (1971, 1975, 1977, 1978). But only Staubach won titles for Landry.

 
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If you want to point out the failures you need to also point out the successes. Nick Saban, Kirk Ferentz and Pat Hill have done tremendous jobs.
What's their combined NFL HC record?
Oh so you have to coach in the NFL to be a success? I wasn't aware of this. I thought a lot of good coaches stayed in college because they liked. I had no idea it was because they were unqualified.
:loco: :lmao:This better be shtick.
Of course it is. I guess we should all post in red when we are being sarcastic. The guy is basically downplaying Saban, Ferentz and Hill's accomplishments which is beyond ridiculous.
 
I like what Mangini is doing in Cleveland and won't be happy if he is canned.

As for McDaniels, I think it is a bit early to call a coach a failure when he did go 8-8 in his first year. I understand that his team faltered badly down the stretch but many predicted they wouldn't win 3 games this year.

 
If you want to point out the failures you need to also point out the successes. Nick Saban, Kirk Ferentz and Pat Hill have done tremendous jobs.
What's their combined NFL HC record?
Oh so you have to coach in the NFL to be a success? I wasn't aware of this. I thought a lot of good coaches stayed in college because they liked. I had no idea it was because they were unqualified.
:loco: :lmao:This better be shtick.
Of course it is. I guess we should all post in red when we are being sarcastic. The guy is basically downplaying Saban, Ferentz and Hill's accomplishments which is beyond ridiculous.
Same guy.
 
Also in the equation of a coaches success is being with the team and orginization that fits your talents best. Belichick is with a team whose ownership, management, etc have given him or allowed him tools to succeed. Stick Belichick with an Al Davis (which is an extreme example) and he might look like a failure too.. Perhaps some of his Assistant coaches,etc just haven't landed in the right spot to be successful.

 
People always tried to make him out to be a genius, but he was no Bill Parcells.
You could just as easily spin this the other way. How many Super Bowls has Bill Parcells won without Belichick on his coaching staff? None. How many Super Bowls has Bill Belichick won without Parcells on the same team? Three.Most people in the Giants organization also credit Belichick with those game plans referenced earlier that shut down the high-powered Niners offense and the high-powered Bills offense. Of course, Belichick had Lawrence Taylor at his disposal on D much like Belichick currently has Brady and Moss on O. Great plans only go so far without great players executing them.
 
People always tried to make him out to be a genius, but he was no Bill Parcells.
You could just as easily spin this the other way. How many Super Bowls has Bill Parcells won without Belichick on his coaching staff? None. How many Super Bowls has Bill Belichick won without Parcells on the same team? Three.Most people in the Giants organization also credit Belichick with those game plans referenced earlier that shut down the high-powered Niners offense and the high-powered Bills offense. Of course, Belichick had Lawrence Taylor at his disposal on D much like Belichick currently has Brady and Moss on O. Great plans only go so far without great players executing them.
How many Super Bowls has Bellichick won without Crennel and Weis?
 
If you want to point out the failures you need to also point out the successes. Nick Saban, Kirk Ferentz and Pat Hill have done tremendous jobs.
What's their combined NFL HC record?
Oh so you have to coach in the NFL to be a success? I wasn't aware of this. I thought a lot of good coaches stayed in college because they liked. I had no idea it was because they were unqualified.
:confused: :lmao:This better be shtick.
Of course it is. I guess we should all post in red when we are being sarcastic. The guy is basically downplaying Saban, Ferentz and Hill's accomplishments which is beyond ridiculous.
Actually, since the implication in the OP is NFL coaching, I beleive what he was trying to point out that none of the three mentioned as "successes" have had virtually any success at the NFL level. In his opinion (which may be the opinion of many weighing in), citing their college successes would be akin when asked about an NFL player's accomplishments to rattling off all the records they broke in the SEC. Yes, it may mean they were good at some level - but not the level being discussed. In this case, that would be NFL coaching.
 
Tom Brady got a chance and ran with it. For BB being the reason he is so good, is for debate. Weiss had a lot to with tutoring with Brady when he was staritng out.

McDaniels could be headed in the right direction with the Broncos. Even with the Cutler deal, he has this team contending for a playoff spot. He has some weapons on offense, and the defense should get better as they learn more/.

Never been or be a fan of Mangini. Hoping Holmgren shows him the door today.

 

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