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Reggie Bush vs. LenDale White (1 Viewer)

Weapon of Mass Instruction

Watch my feet!
Yes, I've watched. I've seen the spectacular.

But, someone explain to me why Bush will be a better NFL running back than White?

Bush is really, really good. However, I just do not see him as an every down RB in the NFL. Bush's greatest success has been on the corner. You can do that in college, I just don't know if he can have the same/similar success in the NFL against that level of speed. Speed on the corner on defense is why you don't see the option in the NFL.

White, on the other hand, has his success in the middle. Hitting the line hard, finding a hole, cutting back, side stepping the LB.

I am NOT saying that Bush won't be good -- he will. I just don't see how, 10 years down the road, we don't see White as having been the better NFL running back.

(I am this close :fingerandthumb: to saying that DeAngelo Williams appears to be a better NFL RB than Bush for the same reasons.)

If HOU takes Young and NO takes Leinart -- I just can't get excited about my Titans taking Bush. I would MUCH rather them trade down and get a mid-teen pick and other picks. Of course, with Bush on the board, they should have plenty of ammunition to make some other team bite.

 
Titans should trade down or really consider D"brickshaw.

The Chow connection might net them Bush or Leinart....
I am really in the "trade down" camp. I don't like taking an OT at #3 either. When is the last time that really paid off? Gallery was supposed to be all-world. He was the lineman equivalent of Reggie Bush. That has definitely not worked out so far.
 
lollast week Bush was Gale Sayers re-incarnated, one bowl game later he's not the best RB on his team.I know that's not what your saying, WOMI, I just think it's a riot how fast some opinions change.

 
Yes, I've watched. I've seen the spectacular.

But, someone explain to me why Bush will be a better NFL running back than White?
the championship game was the first time i've seen usc play, so i was wondering the same thing. i know it was one game, and i've seen some of bush's highlights, but i think if i were an nfl gm, i'd draft white a round or so later, and use my 1st rounder on someone else. :2cents:

 
I think there's certainly a decent chance that White will become a better NFL RB. Remember that every player whose game is dependent upon speed finds that NFL defenders are faster than college defenders. There are still the rare players who can be alot faster than the NFL defenders, like Vick, and maybe Bush will be another. But I don't think that it's crazy to think that he will not have the open spaces to run in when he gets to the NFL and that he isn't quite as good running in tight spaces. We already know that White is very good at running in tight spaces.

 
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All I kept thinking during the game is that I have seen this Bush / White combo somewhere before then it hit me. Bush & White are the college version of Dunn & Duckett and USC used this combo succesfully all year. I just don't see Reggie Bush having a huge impact on any team in the NFL unless he is used in tandem with a White or Duckett type back. I agree that his outside speed will not get him far in the NFL as he will start to see defensive ends with real speed.

 
lol

last week Bush was Gale Sayers re-incarnated, one bowl game later he's not the best RB on his team.

I know that's not what your saying, WOMI, I just think it's a riot how fast some opinions change.
Granted, but I was never on the Bush is God bandwagon.
 
I think that Bush will have 2-3 good/great years out of the gate, BUT White will have a better career. Just my opinion.I think White will be a better value pick then Bush for dynasty owners.

 
Show me some LenDale in Philadelphia. We already have Bush (Westbrook). Yes, I like LenDale to be the better long term pro. As Mel Kiper said, there were several games, not just the championship, that White looked like the better RB.

 
I can't support it, because I've said for 2 seasons that LenDale will be the better pro back, and against Texas, whose size and speed was as close to NFL caliber as anybody they've faced this year, it showed. I think his power is what gives him the edge, and it's not like he's slow. Will Bush be a good NFL player? I think so, but I also thought Pete Warrick would be good. He has to put on at least 20 lbs, and maybe 30, and how will that effects his quicks? All that said, it really depends on the system. Each could excel in a system built to their skills. White succeeds in a Denver/Pittsburgh/Washington type of attack or power running. Bush would excel in a Marshall Faulk/Lamont Jordan/Priest Holmes/Barber type of role where the offense is designed to get the ball into his hands in space, where his quicks will be most beneficial.

 
Depends on the scenario. If in Houston, maybe they become the 2-3 headed monster that was predicted in Philly before Staley and Buckhalter found out that the cheerleaders worked naked in the trainers' room. I could see Bush being the star Westbrook type, D.D. Buckhalter and Hollings or Morency maybe being the closer a la Staley.Then again, if a team like Pittsburgh gets White...... Bettis, Foster, Morris (rememberable names in the recent lineage of Cowher's Steelers). Parker becomes an even better Zeroue than Bettis had... :D

 
I think it's strange... the dude had 275 (or something like that) all-purpose yards in the game and it was a bad game.

 
I can't support it, because I've said for 2 seasons that LenDale will be the better pro back, and against Texas, whose size and speed was as close to NFL caliber as anybody they've faced this year, it showed. I think his power is what gives him the edge, and it's not like he's slow.

Will Bush be a good NFL player? I think so, but I also thought Pete Warrick would be good. He has to put on at least 20 lbs, and maybe 30, and how will that effects his quicks?

All that said, it really depends on the system. Each could excel in a system built to their skills. White succeeds in a Denver/Pittsburgh/Washington type of attack or power running. Bush would excel in a Marshall Faulk/Lamont Jordan/Priest Holmes/Barber type of role where the offense is designed to get the ball into his hands in space, where his quicks will be most beneficial.
A. Texas is nowhere near NFL speed or talent. NFL is a drastic step above, not even close. But I think you're right that Texas was the fastest and strongest defense USC played all year, so that White's relative success bodes well for him (though it doesn't mean that he'll be a successful pro). B. Bush did have almost 200 all purpose yards in the game, which isn't chump change.

C. White may be the better NFL back, but there is no way he will be able to man handle defenders like he did against Texas. He wont be able to throw would-be tacklers around with one arm or plow over linebackers. He, like Bush, will need to adjust his game.

D. Someone said that Bush/White is like Dunn/Duckett. Bush and Dunn are similar, except that Bush is faster and more explosive, while White is not at all like Duckett, IMO. Very different styles.

 
I think it's strange... the dude had 275 (or something like that) all-purpose yards in the game and it was a bad game.
I don't remember anyone saying Bush didn't look great in that game! What folks are saying is "Who makes the better NFL back?"I've had the same suspicions (White vs. Bush) for the past several weeks, and I have the 1.01 pick in one of my DL rookie drafts this spring. Honestly, Bush is NOT the slam-dunk pick that everyone has been making him out to be. He is lightning in a bottle and a TREMENDOUS talent....but then again, so is Michael Vick. And last time I checked, Michael Vick couldn't carry LT's jock when it comes to fantasy football production.....or the jock of several "two-bit" QB athletes either. :popcorn:
 
Titans should trade down or really consider D"brickshaw.

The Chow connection might net them Bush or Leinart....
I have a good friend that's the other starting Tackle atr UVA. He's a pro prospect that's invited to the combine. He told me that Ferguson is not very strong in the weight room. My buddy insists that Ferguson is a beast however, I'm just not buying it. He's a terrible run blocker. Look at the tapes from the FSU game. The kid got used.
 
I think it's strange... the dude had 275 (or something like that) all-purpose yards in the game and it was a bad game.
I don't think most people think it was a bad game for Bush. Just two excellent players stole some of his spotlight. White has done that several times the last two years, but most of the media hype has been on Bush. Deservedly so, but VY and White (and Leinart though I'm leaving him out of this post) have been in Bush's media shadow all year long and everybody watched this game for themselves and is coming to the conclusion that maybe Bush is a stud, but these two are also. The new toy for Christmas isn't always as good as your old one, but its so exciting to play with the new one for a little bit.

 
What I love is that Bush gets 177 combined offensive yards and a TD and it is considered a bad game.I have no doubt that White will most likely have more rushing yards in the NFL than Bush. He did almost every year they were together at USC, this year being the only exception.White is definitely a more prototypical NFL back and if you like the kind of back that gets 1,300 yards rushing and a couple hundred yards receiving then White is your man.If you want a playmaker who can go 1k rushing / 1k receiving, Bush is your guy.They are different backs who will both excel in the NFL in their own way. It comes down to a team's playcalling style to see who is the right fit. If you don't use them in a way that accentuates their talents, you wasted a draft pick.

 
I can't support it, because I've said for 2 seasons that LenDale will be the better pro back, and against Texas, whose size and speed was as close to NFL caliber as anybody they've faced this year, it showed.  I think his power is what gives him the edge, and it's not like he's slow. 

Will Bush be a good NFL player?  I think so, but I also thought Pete Warrick would be good.  He has to put on at least 20 lbs, and maybe 30, and how will that effects his quicks? 

All that said, it really depends on the system.  Each could excel in a system built to their skills.  White succeeds in a Denver/Pittsburgh/Washington type of attack or power running.  Bush would excel in a Marshall Faulk/Lamont Jordan/Priest Holmes/Barber type of role where the offense is designed to get the ball into his hands in space, where his quicks will be most beneficial.
A. Texas is nowhere near NFL speed or talent. NFL is a drastic step above, not even close. But I think you're right that Texas was the fastest and strongest defense USC played all year, so that White's relative success bodes well for him (though it doesn't mean that he'll be a successful pro). B. Bush did have almost 200 all purpose yards in the game, which isn't chump change.

C. White may be the better NFL back, but there is no way he will be able to man handle defenders like he did against Texas. He wont be able to throw would-be tacklers around with one arm or plow over linebackers. He, like Bush, will need to adjust his game.

D. Someone said that Bush/White is like Dunn/Duckett. Bush and Dunn are similar, except that Bush is faster and more explosive, while White is not at all like Duckett, IMO. Very different styles.
:goodposting: If I were going to compare them, I'd likely use more of a Cadillac Williams and Ronnie Brown at Auburn comparison.

Everyone loves to jump on RBs who didn't "carry the load" while in college, but no one ever talks about the fact that Bush had exactly 3 games that he had 20+ carries this year (20, 23, and 24). In the other 11 games, he averaged just over 12 rushes per game.

There's risk with both of them, but the Bush hype has gotten way out of control. Maybe now the White hype will level everything off.

 
Didn't say Texas was as good as a NFL defense, but that they were as close to an NFL defense as USC played this year, in size and speed. I can't think of anybody else they played with as good a defense. And all this was said only as a qualifier for my belief that LenDale White's game is better suited to attacking bigger, faster, stronger defenses than Reggie Bush. Bush is a playmaker, but he has to get the ball in space to make the plays. He's not going to break the first tackle. With space, he can evade it, but LenDale can break that first tackle, and though not as frequently as Bush, he can make said tackler miss. You can't get Bush space 20 times a game, or at least not consistently. You can power run the ball. Also, I don't think White will be light years better. Barring injury we'll be talking about both of them for many years to come. Both have rare talent, and will have success in the NFL.

 
The problem with Bush as well is situation. Assuming the Texans don't move down out of the 1.01 slot and draft him, he's got:1. Crap for an O-Line2. Dom Davis3. Verand Morency4. A suspect D.Meanwhile, LenDale White maybe goes at 1.05 to the Packers, where he could be completing with only Fisher and Gado for a starting gig, will hopefully have a defensive-minded coach in Bates who will look to grind it out more and get him his 20+ carries and 85-90+ yards and a TD every game.Part of being a "good pro" is also being in the right situation. I don't think that Houston is the right situation at all unless they revamp the O-Line and get an offensive-minded coach in there to really shake things up. That, and keeping Andre Johnson, Dom Davis and 3-4 other bit-players (at this point) interested and involved.I guess my inclination right now is to look at trades down out of the 1.01 slot...then let somebody else roll the dice on Bush. However, I've got about four months to make those types of decisions...... ;)

 
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Bush doesnt need to be a better all around running back to get drafted first. The NFL craves speed and will always pay a higher price for it. While speed is a definate asset to an NFL franchise, it doesnt always pay off with statistics. We in fantasy land are only concerned with the stats. Bush will be overvalued by fantasy owners but his value to an NFL team is huge.

 
Bush reminds me most of Marshall Faulk. His relative strength is his versatility. He won't be a 25 carry per game guy. He might be a 25 touch per game guy, however, with runs, passes, and returns. He did look to me like the fastest guy on the field Wednesday night. He will be a handfull in the open field in the NFL.Lendale most reminds me of Larry Johnson. About the same size. Same general downhill running style. Good speed for their size. He appears to be a "workhorse" 25 carry per game guy.So to me, it will come down to personal preference. Does a team want a Faulk type versatile open-field guy? Or do they want a downhill LJ type workhorse back? Both are undeniably effective.

 
Bush reminds me most of Marshall Faulk. His relative strength is his versatility. He won't be a 25 carry per game guy. He might be a 25 touch per game guy, however, with runs, passes, and returns. He did look to me like the fastest guy on the field Wednesday night. He will be a handfull in the open field in the NFL.

Lendale most reminds me of Larry Johnson. About the same size. Same general downhill running style. Good speed for their size. He appears to be a "workhorse" 25 carry per game guy.

So to me, it will come down to personal preference. Does a team want a Faulk type versatile open-field guy? Or do they want a downhill LJ type workhorse back? Both are undeniably effective.
And another positive for White is that he can be a workhorse w/o the added problem of being the workhorse in college too. Perhaps his body will last a bit longer.
 
If White was not at SC, would Bush have been more or less effective?If Bush were not at SC would White have been more or less effective?My point is that Carroll had a great tandem and used them to perfection. People say that Bush can't run inside and White can't run outside but come on, they didn't need to and they weren't asked to.They will both experience some success at the next level and chances are that one of them will hit it big as long as they get into the right system, but that can be said for most upper echelon talent.Bush can carry the load IMOWhite can be effective but will not be anywhere near as explosive as Bush.1k/1k for Bush, not for most teams20 td's for White, not for most teamsJust my 2 centsTom

 
Everyone loves to jump on RBs who didn't "carry the load" while in college, but no one ever talks about the fact that Bush had exactly 3 games that he had 20+ carries this year (20, 23, and 24). In the other 11 games, he averaged just over 12 rushes per game.
i guess not having seen a game all year, i expected bush to be the workhorse. that and not having heard of white, it suprised me to see him getting most of the work.
 
Bush reminds me most of Marshall Faulk. His relative strength is his versatility. He won't be a 25 carry per game guy. He might be a 25 touch per game guy, however, with runs, passes, and returns. He did look to me like the fastest guy on the field Wednesday night. He will be a handfull in the open field in the NFL.
Faulk has averaged 20 touches per game in his career. In his prime (first 3 years with the Rams), he averaged 23 touches per game. And no team is going to have a top 3 draft pick returning kicks.That said, I don't disagree that a Faulk like role (17 carries, 6 catches) will fit his game well. But if he is with a team who has another quality RB, like the Texans do in Davis, I would expect those numbers to be lower... say 10-15 carries, 3-6 catches per game.
 
Bush reminds me most of Marshall Faulk.  His relative strength is his versatility.  He won't be a 25 carry per game guy.  He might be a 25 touch per game guy, however, with runs, passes, and returns.  He did look to me like the fastest guy on the field Wednesday night.  He will be a handfull in the open field in the NFL.
Faulk has averaged 20 touches per game in his career. In his prime (first 3 years with the Rams), he averaged 23 touches per game. And no team is going to have a top 3 draft pick returning kicks.That said, I don't disagree that a Faulk like role (17 carries, 6 catches) will fit his game well. But if he is with a team who has another quality RB, like the Texans do in Davis, I would expect those numbers to be lower... say 10-15 carries, 3-6 catches per game.
I may be going to far out on a limb here but I can't imagine that if someone has a quality RB AND a poor record, they would be looking at Bush. Chances are the problems are much more than what a RB can fix.As far as DD being quality...well I will save that for another discussion.

Tom

 
Didn't say Texas was as good as a NFL defense, but that they were as close to an NFL defense as USC played this year, in size and speed. I can't think of anybody else they played with as good a defense. And all this was said only as a qualifier for my belief that LenDale White's game is better suited to attacking bigger, faster, stronger defenses than Reggie Bush. Bush is a playmaker, but he has to get the ball in space to make the plays. He's not going to break the first tackle. With space, he can evade it, but LenDale can break that first tackle, and though not as frequently as Bush, he can make said tackler miss. You can't get Bush space 20 times a game, or at least not consistently. You can power run the ball.

Also, I don't think White will be light years better. Barring injury we'll be talking about both of them for many years to come. Both have rare talent, and will have success in the NFL.
Reading this post, I flashed back to 1987 Fiesta Bowl and Penn State - Miami. Vinny Testaverde was a great passer who had probably the worst game in his college career. It (to me, FWIW) was more indicative of how he turned out as a pro than lighting it up against Florida A&M -- nothing personal Rattlers fans (both of you ;) )The point is, a game like that means both teams have premium talent on both sides of the ball, far and away better than 90% of the rest of D-1. The NFL has that kind of talent on every team and there's no chance for a cupcake game.

:2cents:

 
I can't support it, because I've said for 2 seasons that LenDale will be the better pro back, and against Texas, whose size and speed was as close to NFL caliber as anybody they've faced this year, it showed. I think his power is what gives him the edge, and it's not like he's slow.

Will Bush be a good NFL player? I think so, but I also thought Pete Warrick would be good. He has to put on at least 20 lbs, and maybe 30, and how will that effects his quicks?

All that said, it really depends on the system. Each could excel in a system built to their skills. White succeeds in a Denver/Pittsburgh/Washington type of attack or power running. Bush would excel in a Marshall Faulk/Lamont Jordan/Priest Holmes/Barber type of role where the offense is designed to get the ball into his hands in space, where his quicks will be most beneficial.
Isn't he like 205 lbs now? How heavy do you think he needs to be???
 
Didn't say Texas was as good as a NFL defense, but that they were as close to an NFL defense as USC played this year, in size and speed.  I can't think of anybody else they played with as good a defense.  And all this was said only as a qualifier for my belief that LenDale White's game is better suited to attacking bigger, faster, stronger defenses than Reggie Bush.  Bush is a playmaker, but he has to get the ball in space to make the plays.  He's not going to break the first tackle.  With space, he can evade it, but LenDale can break that first tackle, and though not as frequently as Bush, he can make said tackler miss.  You can't get Bush space 20 times a game, or at least not consistently.  You can power run the ball. 

Also, I don't think White will be light years better.  Barring injury we'll be talking about both of them for many years to come.  Both have rare talent, and will have success in the NFL.
Reading this post, I flashed back to 1987 Fiesta Bowl and Penn State - Miami. Vinny Testaverde was a great passer who had probably the worst game in his college career. It (to me, FWIW) was more indicative of how he turned out as a pro than lighting it up against Florida A&M -- nothing personal Rattlers fans (both of you ;) )The point is, a game like that means both teams have premium talent on both sides of the ball, far and away better than 90% of the rest of D-1. The NFL has that kind of talent on every team and there's no chance for a cupcake game.

:2cents:
does this mean leinart's stock drops as well?
 
Wow, it seems like a lot of posters were surprised by White's workload and success. This was nothing new folks. White has been a stud his entire career, and there were many games where he had more yards/TD's than Bush. I think Carroll was absolutely brilliant in the way he used them. This isn't about Bush. Bush's acceleration and moves speak for themselves. Don't forget that. This is about White. Some people didn't know about him - now they do.By the way, White should absolutely come out - right now.

 
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I can't support it, because I've said for 2 seasons that LenDale will be the better pro back, and against Texas, whose size and speed was as close to NFL caliber as anybody they've faced this year, it showed. I think his power is what gives him the edge, and it's not like he's slow.

Will Bush be a good NFL player? I think so, but I also thought Pete Warrick would be good. He has to put on at least 20 lbs, and maybe 30, and how will that effects his quicks?

All that said, it really depends on the system. Each could excel in a system built to their skills. White succeeds in a Denver/Pittsburgh/Washington type of attack or power running. Bush would excel in a Marshall Faulk/Lamont Jordan/Priest Holmes/Barber type of role where the offense is designed to get the ball into his hands in space, where his quicks will be most beneficial.
Isn't he like 205 lbs now? How heavy do you think he needs to be???
USC roster lists him at 6'0" 200FYI, Marshall's NFL page lists him at 5'10" 211

 
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Yes, I've watched. I've seen the spectacular.

But, someone explain to me why Bush will be a better NFL running back than White?

Bush is really, really good. However, I just do not see him as an every down RB in the NFL. Bush's greatest success has been on the corner. You can do that in college, I just don't know if he can have the same/similar success in the NFL against that level of speed. Speed on the corner on defense is why you don't see the option in the NFL.

White, on the other hand, has his success in the middle. Hitting the line hard, finding a hole, cutting back, side stepping the LB.

I am NOT saying that Bush won't be good -- he will. I just don't see how, 10 years down the road, we don't see White as having been the better NFL running back.

(I am this close :fingerandthumb: to saying that DeAngelo Williams appears to be a better NFL RB than Bush for the same reasons.)

If HOU takes Young and NO takes Leinart -- I just can't get excited about my Titans taking Bush. I would MUCH rather them trade down and get a mid-teen pick and other picks. Of course, with Bush on the board, they should have plenty of ammunition to make some other team bite.
I think the problem with your argument is that you're assuming that Bush wouldn't be successful on runs up the middle. In reality, it's tough to make that conclusion. The mere fact that White received most of the inside carries for USC in no way proves that Bush wouldn't have been effective with those same carries. I've probably seen these two play as much as anybody on these boards and I'd still prefer Bush. White has a better chance of becoming a Shaun Alexander type, but he also has a little more bust risk. Bush is a safer bet. He should fall somewhere in the range of Brian Westbrook and Marshall Faulk, which would make him a solid pick at 1.01.

Also, I think the "Bush needs to gain weight" stuff is absurd. Did you watch the game? The guy's jacked up. He'll weigh in at 205-215 at the combine and his playing weight will be no less than that of guys like Barber, Portis, Martin, and Westbrook (it might even be quite a bit higher).

 
I think there's certainly a decent chance that White will become a better NFL RB. Remember that every player whose game is dependent upon speed finds that NFL defenders are faster than college defenders. There are still the rare players who can be alot faster than the NFL defenders, like Vick, and maybe Bush will be another. But I don't think that it's crazy to think that he will not have the open spaces to run in when he gets to the NFL and that he isn't quite as good running in tight spaces. We already know that White is very good at running in tight spaces.
Last I read,Vick 40 time = 4.25

Bush 40 time = 4.28

And I think its safe to say that Bush has the same sort of elusiveness & play-making ability as Vick. All the Vick haters say make Vick a RB instead of pretending he's a QB. Well, now you have him.

 
Everyone loves to jump on RBs who didn't "carry the load" while in college, but no one ever talks about the fact that Bush had exactly 3 games that he had 20+ carries this year (20, 23, and 24). In the other 11 games, he averaged just over 12 rushes per game.

There's risk with both of them, but the Bush hype has gotten way out of control. Maybe now the White hype will level everything off.

Lets examine those three games with 20 + carries.

Carries Yards YPC TD Rec Yards TD

20 122 6.1 1 3 43 1

23 294 12.8 2 3 68 0

24 260 10.8 2 0 0 0

3 gmae total Carries 67, yards 676, 10.08 ypc, Rec 6, yards 111, Total 6 td's

On the season his total's were:

Carries Yards YPC TD Rec Yards YPC TD

200 1740 8.7 16 37 478 12.9 2

The guy was the first place getter on 95% of the heisman ballots for a reason. I was at the Fresno St. game, and believe me he is even better in person. He has a completly different gear than other players.

 
Yes, I've watched. I've seen the spectacular.

But, someone explain to me why Bush will be a better NFL running back than White?
Would you rather have a young LaDainian Tomlinson or a young Stephen Davis? These are the best comparisons to current NFL RBs, imo. White runs like Davis did when Davis was younger, at full speed and strength, and twice looked like a league MVP. I'm not disrespecting Davis or White with the comparison. White is very good and belongs in this draft's upper tier with Williams and Bush. Bush measures and looks exactly like LT did when he was 20 and in college (I've posted the skinny LT picture before), 5-11 205, very young, still developing, work out warrior, mad moves, exceptional speed, very versatile, amazing highlight reel. Bush is physically stronger at 20 than LT was. If you doubt this, the Combine results (should Bush go), will prove it.

Bush is really, really good. However, I just do not see him as an every down RB in the NFL.
I have an issue with the notion of an every down back. I've wanted to get this off my chest all season, so I'll do it here (hope this isn't too long, eta but it is). I think the whole idea is misunderstood and overblown .

I admit there are cases of players being suited to situational play at every position. But, I've seen enough of Dunn, Barber, Portis, Martin, Emmitt, Holmes, Faulk, Sanders and others to know, not think, that backs around 200 pounds (even under in some cases) can be featured with tremendous success in the NFL. Do you remember Joe Morris's 21 TD season? I think it's a little shameful that Mewelde and Tatum haven't had the opportunity to be featured. However, Bell may have an endurance issue, cardiovascular, but that wouldn't apply to Bush who gets stronger and more dangerous as defenses wear down. He's in phenomenal condition. It seems players get labeled because they share RB work with another or play behind a poor line. Ricky Williams and Ronnie Brown are every down backs sharing the job.

Talent is talent, and most any NFL RB is capable of carrying the load if given the the load. Some just aren't very good, which doesn't mean that they couldn't do a poor job of toting it 25 times a game. Some are much better than others and Bush is in this category. Some are not given the opportunity because they have a teammate near equal in ability and coaches determine not to feature one back for a variety of reasons, hoping to keep both healthy and keeping them fresh being primary concerns, but also considering different abilities for different situations. Holmes/Johnson early this season is a current example, and we know both are extremely capable every down backs when healthy. While Parcells was using JJ with Barber word got out that JJ wasn't an every down back, but he has proven several times that if given the load, he will carry it. Any back of any size can be injured on any play, be it his 1st or 31st carry. Many people didn't think Portis was an every down NFL back coming into the league. Bush will be playing at 210-215, like Portis, in a couple a years.

The list of smaller, featured, NFL backs who have enjoyed long productive careers is longer than the list of big backs (who take a much worse pounding). This year we saw Ahman and Deuce go down to injury and Dunn and Barber carry the load near the top of the yardage rankings. Bigger backs like Foster and Taylor cannot seem to stay healthy any better than smaller backs like Westbrook and Dunn.

I have another theory about pigeon toed runners and injury but will spare the details, noting, Foster and Taylor run with their toes in. So does DeAngelo Williams. Track coaches know the fastest runners often run this way. I think it is very hard on knees and ankles and isn't conducive to being knocked down repeatedly. DeAngelo has a long history of injury and could be very similar to Foster and Taylor in this regard.

The only thing stopping a very high percentage of non-featured backs from being every down backs is talent and coaching-- ability and opportunity. Reggie Bush absolutely has the talent and ability, the question is whether he will have the coaching and opportunity. I'm sure he will. He has a long history of blowing minds in practice. Pete Carroll, Norm Chow, Matt Leinart, and Carson Palmer have all called Bush the best football player they have ever seen, and they coached or played with LenDale White.

That's the quick version of my case against the myth of the every down back. I know some here concur, but most regularly talk about who can and can't carry the load. I think it's a canard 95% of the time, and I know Reggie Bush isn't in the 5%, but very capable of being featured in any offense.

Bush's greatest success has been on the corner. You can do that in college, I just don't know if he can have the same/similar success in the NFL against that level of speed. Speed on the corner on defense is why you don't see the option in the NFL.

White, on the other hand, has his success in the middle. Hitting the line hard, finding a hole, cutting back, side stepping the LB.
Certainly Bush has had more opportunity to run outside and White more to run inside. They've both had success with their opportunities. With the exception of short yardage plays, Reggie has been better both inside and outside. And LenDale has been very good on the outside too. A very good example is the ASU game this year. Check it out.Check out the 2nd half TD runs.

Bush broke two long TD runs up the middle. White broke two long TD runs around the left corner. Anybody watching knows Bush would have scored on all 4 carries, but there's no way LenDale has the burst and acceleration to have scored on Reggie's two rips right up the gut. They were incredible, and few backs at any level make those runs and those moves at that speed. I can provide tons of examples from the last three seasons' of p by ps, and I'm talking about examples of Reggie being the better back between the tackles.

Likewise, in the Rose Bowl, White had a 12-15 yard run up the gut. My immediate comment in the game thread was that Reggie scores on that run from any distance on the field. I've seen it so many times. White veered left into a cornerback, where Reggie would have already been further down the field and smoked the safety to the right-- off to the races. Reggie's 40 yard burst and stupid lateral was between the tackles (and no way does LenDale make that run). Reggie's TD was a play designed between the tackles but busted outside. There was no hole. That was an amazing play LenDale loses yardage on and Reggie scored. Can you name any other back of whom you're certain scores on that run? I can't other than a very healthy LT.

I'm comparing Bush to LT because I think it's very valid, so is Marshall, and in a very important aspect, I compare him to Tiki. All of these backs make offensive lines and wrs better by being great receiving threats themselves. Bush appears to take that to another level, but we can't be sure until we see it at another level. The thing he and Tiki share is incredible vision. I've argued before that Tiki has the best vision in the NFL, and it's why he's been so great these past few years. He seems to always go the right way. Often viewers wonder why a back didn't, or wish a back did, go through a hole visible from the camera. Tiki almost always hits that hole or heads for that opening. So does Reggie, but he is much more dangerous, and we've all seen how dangerous Tiki is.

In the Rose Bowl, Texas had a month to prepare for Lord Heisman, and they were not about to let him beat them. Huff (who will be great) was spying on Reggie in the backfield and following him when split out. The corners were left in man coverage with a single safety. The LBs were run blitzing if he stayed in the backfield. Everything was shut down in the run game. USC should have thrown deep more with Reggie in the game, and thrown deep to Reggie. Against White they were mostly double teaming Jarrett and in zone coverage, the LBs playing straight up. Thus, White had some gaping holes up the gut that Reggie never saw. When Texas adjusted they still struggled with LenDale and the run blockers, but the opportunity to win the game came by stuffing LenDale. LenDale did make two nice runs that Reggie could not make, one being the stiff arm TD. Reggie goes down where LenDale scores. But, LenDale had several very nice runs where he was a few steps beyond the line of scrimmage before he had to do his thing, and those runs Reggie would have been even better with if the defense was the same. Reggie has always been very good between the tackles. He just often ends up racing down the sideline after bursting through the hole and breaking some safety's ankles.

I wouldn't judge these two very good backs on this game. It's way too small a sample.

I just can't get excited about my Titans taking Bush.
That's fine, but I would be excited about the possibility if I were a Titan fan. That team needs a playmaker and game changer in the worst way. Young is going to need time to develop, but could eventually be the best prospect in this draft. Bush can start next September, and he's been awesome at every level so far.
 
I can't support it, because I've said for 2 seasons that LenDale will be the better pro back, and against Texas, whose size and speed was as close to NFL caliber as anybody they've faced this year, it showed. I think his power is what gives him the edge, and it's not like he's slow.

Will Bush be a good NFL player? I think so, but I also thought Pete Warrick would be good. He has to put on at least 20 lbs, and maybe 30, and how will that effects his quicks?

All that said, it really depends on the system. Each could excel in a system built to their skills. White succeeds in a Denver/Pittsburgh/Washington type of attack or power running. Bush would excel in a Marshall Faulk/Lamont Jordan/Priest Holmes/Barber type of role where the offense is designed to get the ball into his hands in space, where his quicks will be most beneficial.
A. Texas is nowhere near NFL speed or talent. NFL is a drastic step above, not even close. But I think you're right that Texas was the fastest and strongest defense USC played all year, so that White's relative success bodes well for him (though it doesn't mean that he'll be a successful pro). B. Bush did have almost 200 all purpose yards in the game, which isn't chump change.

C. White may be the better NFL back, but there is no way he will be able to man handle defenders like he did against Texas. He wont be able to throw would-be tacklers around with one arm or plow over linebackers. He, like Bush, will need to adjust his game.

D. Someone said that Bush/White is like Dunn/Duckett. Bush and Dunn are similar, except that Bush is faster and more explosive, while White is not at all like Duckett, IMO. Very different styles.
:goodposting: If I were going to compare them, I'd likely use more of a Cadillac Williams and Ronnie Brown at Auburn comparison.

Everyone loves to jump on RBs who didn't "carry the load" while in college, but no one ever talks about the fact that Bush had exactly 3 games that he had 20+ carries this year (20, 23, and 24). In the other 11 games, he averaged just over 12 rushes per game.

There's risk with both of them, but the Bush hype has gotten way out of control. Maybe now the White hype will level everything off.
:goodposting: I watched Texas most of the season and only saw a little of USC here and there. I certainly didn't understand how putting up 500 all purpose yards against a team from Fresno "clearly made Bush the Heisman winner" according to all media reports I heard and read for the rest of the season. The fact is, Young was usually out of the game by the 2nd possession of the 3rd quarter. Young could have easily put up those numbers in a few games if allowed to play. I digress though...and I do agree that both Bush and White are awesome college RBs with totally different talents. The Dunn/Duckett comparison is as close as we've seen in the NFL but I agree that White will do more than Duckett. I also like the comparison of Bush to Westbrook more than to Dunn.

Overall, I think more coaches will know how to handle the talents of White and more teams will prosper with a power back like White. Bush has the potential to be phenomenal if the right coach/offensive coordinator gets him and knows how to use him. If the wrong coach/offensive coordinator gets him, he may disappoint. Just a week ago, the media had Bush destined for the Hall of Fame. I think we need to have a little more realistic expectations and hope he doesn't get saddled with a coach who doesn't know how to mold the offense around him. At the same time, I can see White picking up Cadillac-type yards just playing good old fashioned smashmouth football on many of the teams in the NFL.

 
Bush measures and looks exactly like LT did when he was 20 and in college (I've posted the skinny LT picture before), 5-11 205, very young, still developing, work out warrior, mad moves, exceptional speed, very versatile, amazing highlight reel. Bush is physically stronger at 20 than LT was. If you doubt this, the Combine results (should Bush go), will prove it.
FWIW, ESPN showed a segment where LT invited Bush to workout with him. LT worked him so hard he vomited like 3 times. But to his credit, he cleaned himself off and kept right on with the workout.
 
I think there's certainly a decent chance that White will become a better NFL RB. Remember that every player whose game is dependent upon speed finds that NFL defenders are faster than college defenders. There are still the rare players who can be alot faster than the NFL defenders, like Vick, and maybe Bush will be another. But I don't think that it's crazy to think that he will not have the open spaces to run in when he gets to the NFL and that he isn't quite as good running in tight spaces. We already know that White is very good at running in tight spaces.
Last I read,Vick 40 time = 4.25

Bush 40 time = 4.28

And I think its safe to say that Bush has the same sort of elusiveness & play-making ability as Vick. All the Vick haters say make Vick a RB instead of pretending he's a QB. Well, now you have him.
You're probably right, but my point was the average college LB runs what? A 4.6? The average NFL LB runs about a 4.45. So the speed difference is not going to be as great, IMO.
 
Yes, I've watched. I've seen the spectacular.

But, someone explain to me why Bush will be a better NFL running back than White?

Bush is really, really good. However, I just do not see him as an every down RB in the NFL. Bush's greatest success has been on the corner. You can do that in college, I just don't know if he can have the same/similar success in the NFL against that level of speed. Speed on the corner on defense is why you don't see the option in the NFL.

White, on the other hand, has his success in the middle. Hitting the line hard, finding a hole, cutting back, side stepping the LB.

I am NOT saying that Bush won't be good -- he will. I just don't see how, 10 years down the road, we don't see White as having been the better NFL running back.

(I am this close :fingerandthumb: to saying that DeAngelo Williams appears to be a better NFL RB than Bush for the same reasons.)

If HOU takes Young and NO takes Leinart -- I just can't get excited about my Titans taking Bush. I would MUCH rather them trade down and get a mid-teen pick and other picks. Of course, with Bush on the board, they should have plenty of ammunition to make some other team bite.
I think the problem with your argument is that you're assuming that Bush wouldn't be successful on runs up the middle. In reality, it's tough to make that conclusion. The mere fact that White received most of the inside carries for USC in no way proves that Bush wouldn't have been effective with those same carries. I've probably seen these two play as much as anybody on these boards and I'd still prefer Bush. White has a better chance of becoming a Shaun Alexander type, but he also has a little more bust risk. Bush is a safer bet. He should fall somewhere in the range of Brian Westbrook and Marshall Faulk, which would make him a solid pick at 1.01.

Also, I think the "Bush needs to gain weight" stuff is absurd. Did you watch the game? The guy's jacked up. He'll weigh in at 205-215 at the combine and his playing weight will be no less than that of guys like Barber, Portis, Martin, and Westbrook (it might even be quite a bit higher).
Good post. The point is not that Bush will not be able to run between the tackles (in tight spaces using my terminology. Yes, it's all mine). The point is that we didn't see him run in tight spaces in college because they didn't use him that way and he didn't need to due to his speed. Maybe he'll be great at it in the NFL. However, I feel confident of two things:1) I did see White run in tight spaces in college and he was great at it.

2) Bush will not see as many open spaces in the NFL as he did in college.

 
Bush measures and looks exactly like LT did when he was 20 and in college (I've posted the skinny LT picture before), 5-11 205, very young, still developing, work out warrior, mad moves, exceptional speed, very versatile, amazing highlight reel. Bush is physically stronger at 20 than LT was. If you doubt this, the Combine results (should Bush go), will prove it.
FWIW, ESPN showed a segment where LT invited Bush to workout with him. LT worked him so hard he vomited like 3 times. But to his credit, he cleaned himself off and kept right on with the workout.
I didn't see that one, but Fox SW ran a version of the story over and over again. Remember LT has been in the NFL weightroom for five years as a full-time job, and Reggie was getting a taste of his future from his idol. Reggie did say he gained a new respect for LT. :D At 20 LT wasn't as ripped as Bush was my point. All these backs get bigger, and LT is a great example.

LT @ 20 = Reggie Today (scroll down for pic)

 
Bush measures and looks exactly like LT did when he was 20 and in college (I've posted the skinny LT picture before), 5-11 205, very young, still developing, work out warrior, mad moves, exceptional speed, very versatile, amazing highlight reel. Bush is physically stronger at 20 than LT was. If you doubt this, the Combine results (should Bush go), will prove it.
FWIW, ESPN showed a segment where LT invited Bush to workout with him. LT worked him so hard he vomited like 3 times. But to his credit, he cleaned himself off and kept right on with the workout.
I didn't see that one, but Fox SW ran a version of the story over and over again. Remember LT has been in the NFL weightroom for five years as a full-time job, and Reggie was getting a taste of his future from his idol. Reggie did say he gained a new respect for LT. :D At 20 LT wasn't as ripped as Bush was my point. All these backs get bigger, and LT is a great example.

LT @ 20 = Reggie Today (scroll down for pic)
I wasn't disagreeing with you. I meant it to support his work ethic more than comparing his physical endurance to LT.
 
I wasn't disagreeing with you. I meant it to support his work ethic more than comparing his physical endurance to LT.
I couldn't tell if you agreed or not, but several do disagree, so I wanted to post the pic anyway, and your post was the only response to my polemic. :)
 
Couldn't agree more. It depends on the teams that draft them. IMHO this looks similar when Franco Harris and Lydell Mitchell came out of Penn State more and more each day.

 
I can't support it, because I've said for 2 seasons that LenDale will be the better pro back, and against Texas, whose size and speed was as close to NFL caliber as anybody they've faced this year, it showed. I think his power is what gives him the edge, and it's not like he's slow.

Will Bush be a good NFL player? I think so, but I also thought Pete Warrick would be good. He has to put on at least 20 lbs, and maybe 30, and how will that effects his quicks?

All that said, it really depends on the system. Each could excel in a system built to their skills. White succeeds in a Denver/Pittsburgh/Washington type of attack or power running. Bush would excel in a Marshall Faulk/Lamont Jordan/Priest Holmes/Barber type of role where the offense is designed to get the ball into his hands in space, where his quicks will be most beneficial.
A. Texas is nowhere near NFL speed or talent. NFL is a drastic step above, not even close. But I think you're right that Texas was the fastest and strongest defense USC played all year, so that White's relative success bodes well for him (though it doesn't mean that he'll be a successful pro). B. Bush did have almost 200 all purpose yards in the game, which isn't chump change.

C. White may be the better NFL back, but there is no way he will be able to man handle defenders like he did against Texas. He wont be able to throw would-be tacklers around with one arm or plow over linebackers. He, like Bush, will need to adjust his game.

D. Someone said that Bush/White is like Dunn/Duckett. Bush and Dunn are similar, except that Bush is faster and more explosive, while White is not at all like Duckett, IMO. Very different styles.
Where do you think the NFL gets their fast players from Mars? They get players from major schools like Texas and USC. Bush is faster than fast and I see him in a Brian Westbrook type of role, but he is not a 20 carry every game rb like White is. Both are gonna make very good pros with different styles.
 
both backs looked pretty good but for fantasy production my bet is still Bush to put up the most points most of the time.

 
both backs looked pretty good but for fantasy production my bet is still Bush to put up the most points most of the time.
It all depends on what team drafts them and how they are utilitzed.
 

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