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Reggie Bush (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter DeepOut
- Start date
i'm sure his average has something to do with the fact that he is on pace for breaking the record for negative yard rushes.
Oh ya, and he a rookie scat back who will never be an inbetween the tackles runner. He will find a new way never seen before to be great, to much skill not to be.
Oh ya, and he a rookie scat back who will never be an inbetween the tackles runner. He will find a new way never seen before to be great, to much skill not to be.
Gargoylez
Footballguy
He is getting "dancing with the Stars" and a NFL Game confused.Until he stops his dancing and juking and looking pretty he will be nothing more then a good kick returner and a good pass catcher.List him as a WR, and be done with it.
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
He's looking for the 10 foot wide holes he had in the PAC 10. When they're not there, he dances around trying to find it.
dgreen
Footballguy
So, you're saying his low average is a result of short runs? Interesting.
NYCGangGreen
Footballguy
He is pressing too hard to make each carry he gets a highlight. He needs to learn to just take the 3-4 yards he can get when there is little room to run and it will allow him to eventually break the big run. But by doing Dante Hall type moves in the backfield during runs on 1st and 10 instead of just taking a 4 yard gain up the middle he is hurting himself and the team. Yes they are still 6-2 but Reggie needs to learn to take the yardage that is given to him, and in time will be able to turn it outside for the long runs.
Its the NFL not college, he can't get away from defenders as easily, and he still is learning. 2 years, watch out the kids gonna go wild.
Its the NFL not college, he can't get away from defenders as easily, and he still is learning. 2 years, watch out the kids gonna go wild.
perry147
Footballguy
One of the hardest things to teach young backs in the NFL is to not freelance and follow the play - an opening in in the line in the NFL is much small than in college and closed much quicker also.
piston pete griffin
Footballguy
Why can't the coaching staff get this through his head
Each week he gets worse rushing the ball 
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
He hasn't shown that he has any "wiggle". The problem was that at USC he always had huge holes and was playing Pac-10 defenses, so he didn't need to run in tight spaces. Now that he's in the NFL he's going to need to do that or he'll become an expensive COP back that needs swing passes to make positive yardage. For the record, I think he can learn how to run in tight spaces, but I think it will take some time to learn. It's not easy to learn to go into a hole where you don't see much opening, or to use defenders as leverage as you spin off them. Ask Ron Dayne.
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packersfan
Footballguy
Interesting how every other rookie RB who's getting meaningful playing time this season has figured this out but Bush hasn't.
5-ish Finkle
Footballguy
It must be a conspiracy, because Reggie Bush is the 2nd coming of Gayle Sayers, remember?
Hellfire Snail
Footballguy
He's doing everything everyone thought he would do, minus the 60 yard td scampers we assumed he'd sprinkle throughout the season.
Macdaddy_2004
Footballguy
Ummm he sucks
Ozymandias
Footballguy
Well, not EXACTLY...it is also a result of the relative absence of long runs.dgreen said:
GregR_2
Footballguy
The Shark Pool is what it is because we're more interested in figuring out why someone is sucking and what are the chances those conditions can change in the future.But I'm sure there are plenty of boards out there happy to resound with choruses of "he sucks!" and then go on their merry way somehow feeling superior for having said it.
Dancing Bear
Footballguy
If you review his carries and categorize them as follows :
a) Negative Yards
b) Zero Yards
c) 1 Yard
d) 2 Yards or greater
He is currently at an alarming rate of 46% of his runs resulting in 1 yard or less [a, b, and c]!
This is nearly twice as often as Deuce behind the same line/ system/ etc.
a) Negative Yards
b) Zero Yards
c) 1 Yard
d) 2 Yards or greater
He is currently at an alarming rate of 46% of his runs resulting in 1 yard or less [a, b, and c]!
This is nearly twice as often as Deuce behind the same line/ system/ etc.
Its ugly considering you're not too far ahead of Drew Bledsoe's career rush average.
Only seen a few games, but I think the biggest factor from what I've seen is that obviously players are better in the nfl than in the Pac 10 and the huge lanes aren't there. The guy obviously has the talent to make something out of nothing but maybe we won't see that until he gets more regular carries. Seems like he doesn't get a chance to get in a rythm, although to do so would be to expose him to more punishment which the Saints may not want to do.
Only seen a few games, but I think the biggest factor from what I've seen is that obviously players are better in the nfl than in the Pac 10 and the huge lanes aren't there. The guy obviously has the talent to make something out of nothing but maybe we won't see that until he gets more regular carries. Seems like he doesn't get a chance to get in a rythm, although to do so would be to expose him to more punishment which the Saints may not want to do.
IMO, it's not the conditions, it's him. I understand a thread discussing something like Edge can't run because his O-line sucks and will it get better, or receiver X is being doubled all the time because the other receivers on the team are garbage. That isn't the case here.
Sidewinder
Footballguy
It may be the "same line/system" but the types of plays they each typically run are very different. Rarely does Deuce run anything other than straight ahead between the tackles. Most of Bush's runs are deep pitches or draw plays, both of which are susceptible to losses, especially when teams key on Reggie the way they are right now. It is patently obvious that defenses are essentially saying, if you are going to beat us, it's not going to be because of Reggie Bush. Perfect example was this past Sunday - all three TD passes against Tampa were off play-action to Bush, and Henderson was wide open on both long TDs because of it. Tampa sold out to stop the run Sunday, most plays having 8 and sometimes even 9 in the box.To me, the real question is, why are teams continuing to defense the Saints this way, when Bush has not shown the ability to do damage running the ball ? With the way Brees is playing right now, and with Colston, Horn, and Henderson showing plenty of ability to make things happen in the passing game, IMHO we are going to start seeing defenses play more honest the rest of the year and we'll see if Bush has more success in the running game then.
And just for a reality (i.e., non- fantasy) check, doesn't seem like Sean Payton is too worried about Reggie's low ypc:
Payton: Bush bashers off base
His numbers might not be as eye-popping as hoped for the second pick in the NFL draft, but rookie tailback Reggie Bush is making a huge impact on New Orleans' on-field success midway through the season, Saints Coach Sean Payton said Monday. "I think he's doing fine," Payton said. "I see the 'Reggie Meter' that's in the newspaper and all that other stuff. It's silly. The meter is the team. We're 6-2. The expectation level on him is no different than anyone else on this team. We're winning football games. And he's a big part of why we're winning. Whether it's in the special teams aspect, the passing game. . . . I'm happy with the way this guy is playing."
Payton said the Buccaneers presented some difficult defensive fronts against which to run Sunday, and both Bush and Deuce McAllister were affected by that. The Saints rushed for 49 yards on 35 carries in the 31-14 victory. But Payton credited Bush with a critical blitz pickup on Bucs defensive back Ronde Barber on one of the long touchdown passes from Drew Brees to Devery Henderson.
"What I appreciate are guys that put the team ahead of any of their individual accomplishments. And sometimes it's often difficult to do when you're the second player drafted," Payton said. "People want to know what's going on with Reggie Bush after you just finish winning 30-something to whatever and go to 6-2.
I'm excited about him. I get as excited about him stepping up in a pressure situation in a dog and blitz standpoint, blocking the right guy and we throw a touchdown to Devery Henderson. That's exciting to me. I know it's not as exciting to you guys, but it's exciting to me. Otherwise, that guy hits the quarterback, and we never throw the ball." ...
Link
EXACTLY!! Bush didn't do much more in the preseason than he's doing now but the big difference is in the preseason he was able to hit the corner and outrun a terrible titans defense for 40-plus yards. Bottom line as others have said NFL defenders are faster and better than the guys he's used to playing and he has to learn how to tun inside or he'll go from a future HOF'er to the biggest bust in NFL history.
Dancing Bear
Footballguy
Sidewinder,
Coachspeak is really irrelevant to this discussion ...
Additionally you can claim all you want that Reggie is a "decoy". The fact is he is riding on his own "hype" train right now, and the train is running out of fuel. Unless you fulfill the expectations you set, then the "hype" is garbage. At some point in time, Reggie needs to fuel the hype with decent performances instead of dousing it with horrible performances.
Tampa Bay did not load the line of scrimmage to stop dear Reggie, they loaded the line to stop the Saints running game which includes Reggie but is not limited to him!
The scheme had merit and was executed well in that they did limit New Orleans to less than 50 yards rushing. The end result however [winning the game] was bad. This was a poor choice as Brees and Co. killed them in the air.
Bush had 15 touches which netted New Orleans 17 yards for the game. Do you really, honestly believe that this incredible production put the Fear of God into the Tampa Defense? Thus resulting in the pass plays to Colston & Henderson?
If you feel this is really so, then how come San Diego's receivers don't all have 200-300 yards a game? Or KC's? LT2 and LJ each had over 170 yards from scrimmage last week; the San Diego rushing yards were nearly the same as their receiving yards, and LJ actually had more yards rushing than KC had passing.
These guys produce, week in, week out. Don't you think this sort of production would elicit the sort of lopsided Defensive scheme that you are proposing? In fact more so? And yet ...
Coachspeak is really irrelevant to this discussion ...
Additionally you can claim all you want that Reggie is a "decoy". The fact is he is riding on his own "hype" train right now, and the train is running out of fuel. Unless you fulfill the expectations you set, then the "hype" is garbage. At some point in time, Reggie needs to fuel the hype with decent performances instead of dousing it with horrible performances.
Tampa Bay did not load the line of scrimmage to stop dear Reggie, they loaded the line to stop the Saints running game which includes Reggie but is not limited to him!
The scheme had merit and was executed well in that they did limit New Orleans to less than 50 yards rushing. The end result however [winning the game] was bad. This was a poor choice as Brees and Co. killed them in the air.
Bush had 15 touches which netted New Orleans 17 yards for the game. Do you really, honestly believe that this incredible production put the Fear of God into the Tampa Defense? Thus resulting in the pass plays to Colston & Henderson?
If you feel this is really so, then how come San Diego's receivers don't all have 200-300 yards a game? Or KC's? LT2 and LJ each had over 170 yards from scrimmage last week; the San Diego rushing yards were nearly the same as their receiving yards, and LJ actually had more yards rushing than KC had passing.
These guys produce, week in, week out. Don't you think this sort of production would elicit the sort of lopsided Defensive scheme that you are proposing? In fact more so? And yet ...
I guess I did have a sense that No did tend to use RB on pitch outs and sweeps to try and get him around the end and perhaps defenses were determined to prevent this from happening. I
If this is so, it might explain Deuce finding some space after he breaks through the first line of defense and it might also explain why the passing game downfield seems to be going as well as it is (Colston, Horn, Henderson, with Brees throwing).
But you'd think as NO record improves well beyond what was expected,at some point teams would realize that just ensuring they stop Bush to the outside, or the running game in general, isn't going to win them the game, and work on a more balanced defense that might free up Bush.
Again, as I say, I haven't seen any NO games but I do agree with some of the comments that if Bush was supposed to be so instinctive, he would have learned by now what Addai, Maroney, Drew have learned regarding hitting the assigned hole and taking what you can get. Iwonder though, with Deuce, how many between the tackles chances does he get as compared to the pitch out /sweep carries?
At any rate, alot of the above comments are insightful, aside from the "he sucks" etc. comments that I was trying to avoid.
If this is so, it might explain Deuce finding some space after he breaks through the first line of defense and it might also explain why the passing game downfield seems to be going as well as it is (Colston, Horn, Henderson, with Brees throwing).
But you'd think as NO record improves well beyond what was expected,at some point teams would realize that just ensuring they stop Bush to the outside, or the running game in general, isn't going to win them the game, and work on a more balanced defense that might free up Bush.
Again, as I say, I haven't seen any NO games but I do agree with some of the comments that if Bush was supposed to be so instinctive, he would have learned by now what Addai, Maroney, Drew have learned regarding hitting the assigned hole and taking what you can get. Iwonder though, with Deuce, how many between the tackles chances does he get as compared to the pitch out /sweep carries?
At any rate, alot of the above comments are insightful, aside from the "he sucks" etc. comments that I was trying to avoid.
TwinTurbo
Footballguy
People keep complaining about Bush's lack of inside running, but most of his running plays appear designed to be run to the corners. He's breaking wide to the outside because that is the design of the play and not necessarily because his "Pac-10" instincts are taking over.
Perhaps if Deuce McAllister was not on the roster, Bush would get more inside running plays. From what I have seen, he is only getting a couple of carries a game that are designed to be run up the middle. And it also appears defenses have caught on to this.
Perhaps if Deuce McAllister was not on the roster, Bush would get more inside running plays. From what I have seen, he is only getting a couple of carries a game that are designed to be run up the middle. And it also appears defenses have caught on to this.
Question to those who have seen more than the couple Saints games that I have, is he typically running with or without a fullback? My sense is without, but again, probably have not seen enough live action from him to know one way or the other.
How about Deuce? Same - with or without?
How about Deuce? Same - with or without?
Sidewinder
Footballguy
And I felt it quite relevant to post some "homer" info that others might not typically see.
I'll make certain to check with you next time before posting something that might be a bit off topic...
I'm not claiming anything out of order, just calling it the way numerous NFL analysts - Jaws, Hoge, and Baldinger, among others, see it. The fact is -- the Saints are using Bush in alot of ways and the overall offense has been productive, and I don't think they care whether or not you or anyone else feels he isn't living up to the hype, whatever that really means anyways.
Did I say otherwise ? Try reading the post again, if you even did the first time.
Seems a bit illogical to say a scheme has merit when you lose by 17 points and give up over 300 yards through the air. But maybe that's just me.
It is what it is, you tell me. Why was there no deep safety help on either long pass to Henderson ? Because the safety bit badly on the play fakes to Bush each time. And on the crossing route TD to Colston, the LBs hadn't dropped deep enough because they had come up on the play action. I can't begin to tell you why teams are defensing the Saints the way they are right now, but the simple fact is, they are. Again, if you had taken the time to read my original post, I essentially asked the same thing (without the sarcasm you felt necessary). And they pay an incredible amount of attention to him every play he's on the field, to the betterment of the rest of the offense. Not sure why that seems to be so hard for some to understand.
You tell me. I don't watch KC or SD enough to begin to tell you what kind of offenses they run, nor how teams try to defense them. All I know is, the Saints have one receiver with 700 yds and 7 TDs, plus another receiver with 500+ yds and 3 TDs, and a third receiver with 3 TDs. SD doesn't have a single receiver with more than 440 yds and only one guy with more than 2 TDs (Gates has 4). KC doesn't have a single player with more than 3 receiving TDs, and only Gonzalez has over 500 yds receiving (504). The Saints and the Chargers are both 6-2, and the Chiefs 5-3. You get it done whatever way you can.
Doug B
Footballguy
Yup. Sidewinder's not making it up, folks -- opposing teams have publicly admitted to selling out to stop Bush. Most recently, LB Bart Scott of the Ravens and DC Monte Kiffin of the Bucs. I'm as befuddled as anyone else ... but opponents are, in fact, treating Bush as if he's got Marshall Faulk's game. Cleveland and Green Bay, early in the year, were spying Bush on almost every down.And, Dancing Bear -- of course LT and LJ are helping Rivers and Huard, respectively. Both teams' passing games are overachieving, IMHO, thanks to the threats in the backfield. Having defenses respect a bonafide stud RB is a good thing ... having them respect someone as if they were a stud RB is just as good.
packersfan
Footballguy
It made sense then. It makes zero sense now. I'm astonished that defenses continue to treat Bush as if he's producing at a stellar level when his production has been nothing short of pathetic.
Doug B
Footballguy
I'm with you ... though a fellow Saints fan did make a good point to me. He said that if opponents were to play the Saints with their base defense, and the Saints had Bush at tailback, the Saints would just send Bush in motion and watch how the defense adjusted. If the defense did nothing, they get a Bush vs. LB matchup to exploit in the short passing game. If the defense shifts one or more defenders to cover Bush in motion, Brees has been savvy enough to exploit the open space to another player's benefit (often Colston's, sometimes Deuce, sometimes one of the three-headed TE).
packersfan
Footballguy
I wouldn't disagree with any of that. Brees is a really really good QB. But I'd still take my chances with Bush until he shows me something. Brees has shown plenty. Colston has shown plenty. Horn has shown plenty. Even Devery Henderson has shown something. McAllister's been decent. I'd be FAR more concerned about those players since they are the ones who are actually producing when the ball is in their hands. If defenses stop over-reacting to Bush and he burns them, then adjust back. But right now the approach is simple - and it's definitely not working.
Doug B
Footballguy
And then, there's a chicken-and-egg thing: has Bush's rushing production sucked (a) because of defenses selling out to stop him, (b) because of his own deficiencies, or © a combination of both?While conceding the obvious -- that Bush has shown huge problems with gap discipline as a rusher -- I still think that © is the answer above, with (a) being a bigger factor than (b) ... say 60-40.
Sidewinder
I feel what you are saying, but please don't use the TV analysts as support. I know they know a bunch about football but even you must admit that most of what they say is mainly geared around hype these days. I just would take their opinions with a grain of salt. I honestly think there is better football analysis on boards like these...
Well, mainly those ESPN dudes. They used to be a respectable news station. Now I think I'm watching MTV.....
I feel what you are saying, but please don't use the TV analysts as support. I know they know a bunch about football but even you must admit that most of what they say is mainly geared around hype these days. I just would take their opinions with a grain of salt. I honestly think there is better football analysis on boards like these...
Well, mainly those ESPN dudes. They used to be a respectable news station. Now I think I'm watching MTV.....
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Gargoylez
Footballguy
The point you are missing... and I am sure sidewinder has some spin he can throw out there...
He is NOT producing whether or not people game plan for him.
Everyone game plans for LT... guess what... LT has never had a 13 rush -5 game in his career!!!!
With the money that is being paid to Bush, he should be in terms, getting LT style numbers and productions.
He is not, and he is close to being a detriment to their RUNNING game. Getting caught behind the LOS time and time again is making it harder for BRees & Co. to pick up first downs. So far so good, BRees is having a season NO ONE would of expected... but that is going to bite them in the ### kinda like Baltimore.
If he was paid how he is performing he would be at rookie Minimum, maybe a little more and a small bonus.
If they are winning games, putting butts in the seats and having a successful offense, then I guess it really doesn't matter if Bush is doing good or not. But the point trying to be made is NOT NO winning games, it is Bushs production and it is among the leagues worst.
He is NOT producing whether or not people game plan for him.
Everyone game plans for LT... guess what... LT has never had a 13 rush -5 game in his career!!!!
With the money that is being paid to Bush, he should be in terms, getting LT style numbers and productions.
He is not, and he is close to being a detriment to their RUNNING game. Getting caught behind the LOS time and time again is making it harder for BRees & Co. to pick up first downs. So far so good, BRees is having a season NO ONE would of expected... but that is going to bite them in the ### kinda like Baltimore.
If he was paid how he is performing he would be at rookie Minimum, maybe a little more and a small bonus.
If they are winning games, putting butts in the seats and having a successful offense, then I guess it really doesn't matter if Bush is doing good or not. But the point trying to be made is NOT NO winning games, it is Bushs production and it is among the leagues worst.
Gargoylez
Footballguy
no. LJ, LT, SA, are all game planned for, the top talent in the offense... all get paid equal to or less then Bush and they all produce WEEK IN AND WEEK OUT.Don;t tell me its OK that bush isnt producing, there is a problem there, and right now lifes a friggen bowl of cherries because you are winning... but look beyond that and Bush's production is... well pathetic.PLEASE dont throw the "winning games" scenrio out again, WE KNOW... its Brees not Bush BTW. This is about BUSH.
Doug B
Footballguy
Yes, yes ... of course they succeed -- they've got legit NFL rushing chops. The discipline, the patience, the whole enchilada. Bush does not, and that's why he fails in the rush game when he's specifically targeted. No one is saying differently.And actually ... it IS OK for Bush to be a miserable rusher only as long as other teams devote too much attention to him and opportunities open up for other Saints. When teams begin to stop his short passing routes (if they can), it will be more of a problem. If something happens to Deuce, it will be a large problem. But right now, it's working ... thanks to other teams' blockheadedness, perhaps ... but it is working.
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Sidewinder
Footballguy
Try "NFL Matchup" or some of the breakdowns on NFL Network -- for the most part, pretty good stuff without the hype and b.s. And while there are some very knowledgeable folks on boards like these, have they actually broken down game film for years like Jaws or Hoge have (as players and now analysts) ? Doubtful. I'll take their analysis talking real football, and stick to this board for fantasy stuff.
I have no reason to "spin" anything, don't own him on any fantasy team, and couldn't care less how much (or little) he produces as long as the Saints win.Seems as if you are the one with the axe to grind anyways -- seeing as how you ran your mouth about how bad the Saints were going to be this year (and for years to come). See, that's the thing about blabbing your mouth on a message board, it's very easy to save for posterity (see sig below).
GregR_2
Footballguy
When you take into account the differing salary cap the year each contract was given out, Bush got on par with what Benson and Ronnie Brown got in terms of percentage of team cap used, and all three of whom got less than LT did in both his rookie contract and his extension.I hope you're not saying that Benson and Ronnie Brown are expected to put up LT numbers too. You would hope Bush would be more productive than he's been for what he's getting paid, but equating him to LT is a bit much. If we're going to do that, hold the horses on the Bush thread and start the Benson bashing thread, because he's done less to earn his money than has Bush.
peter griffin
Footballguy
DeepOut- you need to watch it.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
It doesn't take TV analysts to see. It is quite apparent and out in the open to anyone watching what is happening in many of those situations.
hellz_fireflies
Footballguy
His name is Bush..all Bush are losers lately..j/k....really I believe because he's a rookie and all were expecting stats galore out of him..McAllister is in good shape still so Bush is used as a 3rd down back or if they are behind in score as a receiver...2007 is his year not this year..just my opinion. 
toxicbees
Footballguy
It wasn't so much that the Pac 10 defenses were bad, because he pulled the same unbelievable yardage against non-pac 10 teams. I really believe the USC offensive line was the best in the country last year. Also, the he got lots of yards on cut backs. In the NFL those same cut back lanes are blocked by linemen that can run just as fast as him.
Reggie will have a break out game sometime this year, my advice is buy low.
Reggie will have a break out game sometime this year, my advice is buy low.
Well, wouldn't defenses focising on stopping Bush outside actually make him a MORE productive as an inside runner?I've watches all of the games. Thusfar, he is dancing too much- on both inside and outside runs, on punt returns, and on short passes. Maybe its something he can outgrow. But the common notion that he iruns substantially different plays than McAllister is wrong. Additional observation: He doesn't run hard. Lots of arm tackles. A handful of dives to the turf, allegedly to avoid hits. He is very gifted. So much so that it has always been easy for him. His physical abilities dominated the competition. That is not the case in the NFL. If he is willing to learn to play, he will have a nice career. If he is determined to go for the highlight reel on every play, he will not.Tremendous physical skills. Not a tremendous football player. He is to RBs what Vince Young is to QBs. Great potential, needs some work.
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
Ehh..I know what you're saying but I don't call that wiggle. I call it dancing. Or fear. Wiggle is the ability to keep your balance as you bounce between your Guard and an arm tackle.Actually, I see the exact opposite. He's showing far TOO MUCH "wiggle" behind the line looking for that big gainer, instead of just taking what's there.ConstruxBoy said:
Gargoylez
Footballguy
No Axe. Bucs suck, no one predicted that, and Brees stepped in like he was there longer then Brooks was, no one predicted that.But the topic of the thread is Reggie Bush not the New Orlean Saints.
So until you read the topic and understand it, try not to spin everything to "The saints are winning." because that is NOT the topic.
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