What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

Republican / Conservative Opinion Toward Che Guevara? (1 Viewer)

Among people who'd identify as leaning somewhat to strongly republican or conservative, what would y

  • Strongly Negative toward Guevara

    Votes: 28 60.9%
  • Somewhat Negative toward Guevara

    Votes: 6 13.0%
  • Neuetral

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Somewhat Positive toward Guevara

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Strongly Positive toward Guevara

    Votes: 2 4.3%
  • I have not heard of him - No opinion

    Votes: 6 13.0%
  • I have heard of him - No opinion

    Votes: 4 8.7%

  • Total voters
    46

Joe Bryant

Guide
Staff member
Question for you guys.I saw this shirt for Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez depicting her as Guevara and was wondering something.

And this is not important at all. Was just curious about something.

Among people who'd identify as leaning somewhat to strongly republican or conservative, what would you guess their opinion toward Che Guevara would be?

Also to ask, have you heard of him?

 
Last edited by a moderator:

JuniorNB

Footballguy
I have never heard of Che Guevara and will have to turn to Google.  I'm just wondering if I'm in a small minority on that. 

 

timschochet

Footballguy
Loved him in Evita.

ETA I saw the original Broadway version; Che was played by Mandy Patankin. 

 
Last edited by a moderator:

timschochet

Footballguy
how is it possible to not know who he is?
Time. 

Within 20-30 years, most people won’t be able to tell you who Mao Tse Tung was, or Ho Chi Minh, or Tito, or Charles De Gaulle, etc etc. A lot of the people considered giants of the 20th Century will fade from memory to everybody but historians. 

 

pantherclub

Footballguy
Time. 

Within 20-30 years, most people won’t be able to tell you who Mao Tse Tung was, or Ho Chi Minh, or Tito, or Charles De Gaulle, etc etc. A lot of the people considered giants of the 20th Century will fade from memory to everybody but historians. 
Is this not getting taught in our schools?  Its part of history and intertwined quite closely with us and our political system/beliefs. 

 

timschochet

Footballguy
Is this not getting taught in our schools?  Its part of history and intertwined quite closely with us and our political system/beliefs. 
Not in my daughters’ school. 

In high school, you typically get world history and American history. The 20th Century gets a lot of attention, but even so there is little time for Latin American history. Maybe a few minutes on Fidel Castro and the Bay of Pigs, Cuban Missile Crisis, etc. But Che? I doubt it. 

 

Da Guru

Fair & Balanced
I have never heard of Che Guevara and will have to turn to Google.  I'm just wondering if I'm in a small minority on that. 
Born in Argentina, Guevara was a professional revolutionary who became involved in the Guatemalan revolution of the 1950s. It was during this time that he discovered Marxism and became a fervent convert to the philosophy. Following the overthrow of the Guatemalan government by a U.S.-sponsored coup in 1954, Guevara traveled to Mexico where he joined up with Cuban revolutionary Fidel Castro. In 1956, Castro, Guevara, and a small band of supporters landed in Cuba intent on overthrowing its government. When the initial attack did not succeed, Che joined Castro and the survivors in the wilds of Cuba, carrying on a guerilla war. In 1959, the Cuban government fell and Castro seized power. Guevara was put in charge of finance and economic planning for the revolutionary government. In 1960 he published Guerilla Warfare, in which he argued that armed struggle was necessary to free the masses from capitalistic exploitation. By 1965, he faded from public life in Cuba for reasons still not entirely clear. He then reappeared in 1966 in Bolivia where he hoped to bring about a revolution. In October 1967, he was captured and executed by Bolivian troops.

 

rockaction

Footballguy
He was certainly a murderer. A mass murderer? 

Not sure about that one. 
Depends who was executed per his commands. As a singular person, no. But if he was in the field, I can only imagine they made him a leader of some sort. 

But I don't think the number of people or the adjective changes my opinion of him one way or another.  

 

timschochet

Footballguy
Depends who was executed per his commands. As a singular person, no. But if he was in the field, I can only imagine they made him a leader of some sort. 

But I don't think the number of people or the adjective changes my opinion of him one way or another.  
No it shouldn’t. But the 20th Century was the Century of the mass murderer: 

Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, Beria, Hitler, Heydrich, Himmler, Eichmann, Mao, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Khomeini, Saddam Hussein, etc etc. 

I don’t put him or Fidel in that category. I put them more in the General Franco category. Ideological killer, murderer, bad guy for sure. But not among the evil hall of shame, as it were. 

 

Ilov80s

Footballguy
Is this not getting taught in our schools?  Its part of history and intertwined quite closely with us and our political system/beliefs. 
It is not taught in high school. Given the limited amount of time in US and World History, there’s not a lot of time to cover anywhere near as much as teachers would like to. Che doesn’t even com close to getting included.

 

rockaction

Footballguy
No it shouldn’t. But the 20th Century was the Century of the mass murderer: 

Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, Beria, Hitler, Heydrich, Himmler, Eichmann, Mao, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Khomeini, Saddam Hussein, etc etc. 

I don’t put him or Fidel in that category. I put them more in the General Franco category. Ideological killer, murderer, bad guy for sure. But not among the evil hall of shame, as it were. 
Sure. I don't have a large quibble with your distinction.  

 

The Commish

Footballguy
If you asked them who it was, most wouldn't have a clue but they'd absolutely on board with the comparison....strange times we live in. 

 

JuniorNB

Footballguy
how is it possible to not know who he is?
Not sure. Looked him up on Wiki and the image certainly rings a bell. Perhaps he was mentioned in my history class and I was spacing (I had no interest in history as a kid) and I never saw Evita (which I understand he had a role). For whatever reason, I didn't know who he was. 

 

pantherclub

Footballguy
Not sure. Looked him up on Wiki and the image certainly rings a bell. Perhaps he was mentioned in my history class and I was spacing (I had no interest in history as a kid) and I never saw Evita (which I understand he had a role). For whatever reason, I didn't know who he was. 
I am just saying he is intertwined with Cuba, Castro Bay of pigs, socialism and it would blow my mind if that is not at least touched on in some capacity in schools.  Its a sizable chunk of our history for that area and social politics.

 

John Bender

Footballguy
Visited Cuba last year. They love him. I thought he was a murderous not great guy (can expound more when not on mobile) 

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Joe Summer

Footballguy
I work with a lot of very conservative guys. The kind of guys who support the Bundy family and sympathize with Ruby Ridge, who are convinced that the libs want to take their guns away, who have been prepping for a future apocalyptic confrontation. They believe that society has gone downhill and that the government is becoming too oppressive, with too much influence by "outsiders" (lobbyists), and that if the situation isn't "fixed" by politicians within the next few years, then the people (like them) would have to revolt and take things into their own hands. They strongly believe that when the politicians are controlled by outside influences and the people are suffering, then the only solution is armed insurrection.

Anyway, they all hate Che Guevara.

 

Dedfin

Footballguy
No it shouldn’t. But the 20th Century was the Century of the mass murderer: 

Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, Beria, Hitler, Heydrich, Himmler, Eichmann, Mao, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Khomeini, Saddam Hussein, etc etc. 

I don’t put him or Fidel in that category. I put them more in the General Franco category. Ideological killer, murderer, bad guy for sure. But not among the evil hall of shame, as it were. 
wat

 

Insomniac

Footballguy
No it shouldn’t. But the 20th Century was the Century of the mass murderer: 

Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, Beria, Hitler, Heydrich, Himmler, Eichmann, Mao, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Khomeini, Saddam Hussein, etc etc. 

I don’t put him or Fidel in that category. I put them more in the General Franco category. Ideological killer, murderer, bad guy for sure. But not among the evil hall of shame, as it were. 
Che Guevara was a bad guy but he wasn't even close to Franco as a mass murderer.  The highest number if murders I saw attributed to Che was about 500. Estimates of deaths from the White Terror range from 60,000 to 400,000. Nobody really knows and the Spanish government doesn't let anyone try to find out. If we want to stick to Latin/South America Augustus Pinochet was responsible for around 3000 murders making him a more prolific murderer than Che too.  Franco and Pinochet were US allies.

 

SaintsInDome2006

Footballguy
Eh the ranking of dictators is not a good game. Castro ruled by death, fear, easily available forced exile, and a domestic spy network. I’m not sure it helps to say Guevara helped Castro, but meh not as much mayhem and destruction as what Trotsky did for Lenín and Stalin.

 

squistion

Footballguy
I am a bit surprised Che Guevara is unknown to about 25% here. His iconic picture, particularly on t-shirts has been trendy wearing apparel for many young people on the left for years (most probably unfamiliar the unsavory side of his background). In fact Che wearing apparel is referred to as Che chic. A little background:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara_in_fashion

Che Guevara in fashion

The Che Guevara trend, or "Che chic",[1] is a fashion trend featuring the Argentinian-born revolutionary Ernesto "Che" Guevara. The phenomenon has attracted attention from the media, political commentators, songwriters,[2] and Cuban American activists due to the popularity of the T-shirt design, Che's political beliefs, and the "irony" of buying a T-shirt depicting a Marxist icon. As op-ed commentator Chris Berg noted in The Age, "Ironically, Che Guevara's longevity as a cultural symbol has been thanks to the very economic system he sought to destroy".[1]

Popularity[edit]

Che Guevara's image is a popular design for clothing, so much so that Che's likeness has been known as "the face that launched a thousand T-shirts".[3][4] Commentators have noted how the T-shirt is popular among younger adults, especially university students drawn to the rebelliousness associated with the icon. Richard Castle of the Brisbane Times wryly observes that "strolling down Brunswick Street or Chapel Street, it could be easy to think Che Guevara was the only man under 40 never to have worn a Che Guevara T-shirt".[5] The recent popularity of Che-related fashion has been attributed to economic troubles, which make Che's message more appealing.[6]

 
Last edited by a moderator:

jonessed

Footballguy
What's the standard here? All political and military leaders of a revolution are mass murderers?
The murders happened well after they were in power.  Basically the Cuban version of the Red Terror.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

timschochet

Footballguy
What's the standard here? All political and military leaders of a revolution are mass murderers?
No. The standard for mass murder is mass murder. Both Lenin and Trotsky directly ordered the death of hundreds of thousands of people during the Revolution and Counterrevolution. 

As Jonessed correctly notes, the Cuban Revolution also involved mass executions but Che’s direct role in them is unclear. 

 

zoonation

Footballguy
Eh the ranking of dictators is not a good game. Castro ruled by death, fear, easily available forced exile, and a domestic spy network. I’m not sure it helps to say Guevara helped Castro, but meh not as much mayhem and destruction as what Trotsky did for Lenín and Stalin.
Hitler is the #1 seed. No brainer. 

Agree that ranking the rest isn’t worth it. 

 

Dedfin

Footballguy
Eh the ranking of dictators is not a good game. Castro ruled by death, fear, easily available forced exile, and a domestic spy network. I’m not sure it helps to say Guevara helped Castro, but meh not as much mayhem and destruction as what Trotsky did for Lenín and Stalin.
Where do you put Ben-Gurion on that list?

 

Hot Diggity Dog

Footballguy
Eh the ranking of dictators is not a good game. Castro ruled by death, fear, easily available forced exile, and a domestic spy network. I’m not sure it helps to say Guevara helped Castro, but meh not as much mayhem and destruction as what Trotsky did for Lenín and Stalin.
The point being Che would be greatly opposed to democratic socialists, subjecting them to the horrors of the dictatorship of the ploloteriat, equal with capitalists.  It is bizarre how many people idealize some of these dictators and their henchman but don't understand what it would mean to live in a country under their control.

 

SaintsInDome2006

Footballguy
Dedfin said:
Where do you put Ben-Gurion on that list?
I don't know tbqh, I think that's a Tim question as he's steeped in Israeli history. I'm guessing there is a an ethnic cleansing tier and he belongs somewhere in there. 

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Da Guru

Fair & Balanced
Che Guevara was a bad guy but he wasn't even close to Franco as a mass murderer.  The highest number if murders I saw attributed to Che was about 500. Estimates of deaths from the White Terror range from 60,000 to 400,000. Nobody really knows and the Spanish government doesn't let anyone try to find out. If we want to stick to Latin/South America Augustus Pinochet was responsible for around 3000 murders making him a more prolific murderer than Che too.  Franco and Pinochet were US allies.
Che only responsible for 500 murders?  Won`t get him near the top 20.  Although had he lived longer he could have added to his total.

 

Slapdash

Footballguy
Eh the ranking of dictators is not a good game. Castro ruled by death, fear, easily available forced exile, and a domestic spy network. I’m not sure it helps to say Guevara helped Castro, but meh not as much mayhem and destruction as what Trotsky did for Lenín and Stalin.
I think it useful to point out that all dictators after a revolution are not created equal.

The main takeaway from that game though is how rare revolutions like in the US: both following the American Revolution and of the treatment of Confederate leadership after the Civil War.

ETA:  @SaintsInDome2006 I was missing a not in the initial post.  At least in terms of the scale and scope of their atrocities.  Dictatorship itself is a violation of our natural rights to self-determination.  They all invariably commit crimes in their oppression.  I just wanted to clarify that post incase it changes your reaction.  I still haven't had enough coffee today with the time change. 

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Users who are viewing this thread

Top