Right-wing politics fracturing the Evangelical Church? (1 Viewer)

[Workhorse]

I know that we have a lot of smart, thoughtful Evangelical Christians on this board and I'm really curious to hear your takes on this article:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/10/evangelical-trump-christians-politics/620469/

As a non-practicing Jew I have no insight as to whether or not this is a widespread issue in the Evangelical Church but I do see elements of this in everyday life and news stories such as a significant number of Evangelicals promoting anti-vax theories as a type of "end times" fulfillment of scripture.

This is NOT an attack post, I'm just genuinely curious if Evangelical FBGs are seeing this type of schism in their own congregations. This article is the first I've heard of this.

 

[dgreen]

I read that article the other day. It made me wonder if my congregation's leadership has had to deal with this type of stuff. I can't say that I know of anyone at my congregation who is full blown conspiracy theorist but we have 400-500 regularly on Sunday mornings so obviously there are going to be some people in that boat. After reading this article, I've been considering asking one of the ministers or elders if they are seeing this.

 

[The Commish]

I'm likely not going to spend a ton of time in this thread even though I think it's a great question.  We all know where it's going to end up.  I want to point out a few things though.

1.  The "Evangelical Church" isn't a monolithic thing.  Framing it as such makes it really hard to have this conversation.
2.  In my personal experience, it's not a fracture within congregations, though I'm sure that happens in some places, rather from one congregation to the next, you'll find these pockets of churches.

So #2 plays into the larger problem of #1 and the primary reason #2 is true is because scripture is clear on politics in church and people who adhere to the teachings have little tolerance for those that don't.  So the congregations end up segregating themselves as the groups navigate towards those with like minded goals.  Speaking from personal experience, it's crystal clear (especially in small town America) which churches are which.  It's common knowledge within the community which church is promoting biblical teaching over all else and which church may have other objectives.  

 

[Workhorse]

1.  The "Evangelical Church" isn't a monolithic thing.  Framing it as such makes it really hard to have this conversation.
2.  In my personal experience, it's not a fracture within congregations, though I'm sure that happens in some places, rather from one congregation to the next, you'll find these pockets of churches.

Totally agree with both of these points. That's why I'm asking if folks have noticed this within their own congregations. The article makes it sound like this is a pretty widespread problem and that clergy are increasingly conflicted with this recent phenomenon and some are choosing to leave over it.

 

[timschochet]

If there is to be a split, it won’t have been the first time that it happened. The whole reason there is an American Baptist Church and a Southern Baptist Church was that they split over the issue of slavery. 

 

[The Commish]

Totally agree with both of these points. That's why I'm asking if folks have noticed this within their own congregations. The article makes it sound like this is a pretty widespread problem and that clergy are increasingly conflicted with this recent phenomenon and some are choosing to leave over it.

It's highly likely.  There's a reason there are so many denominations under the "Christianity" umbrella.  Lots of lazy people tied up in the religion part rather than the theological part take their ball and go home or create their own game and each instance of division usually results in a new branch.  

 

[dgreen]

Here's another article on what's going on at McLean Bible Church: https://religionnews.com/2021/07/20/david-platt-mclean-bible-lawsuit-crt-woke-liberal-radical-votes-lawsuit/

 

[Workhorse]

If there is to be a split, it won’t have been the first time that it happened. The whole reason there is an American Baptist Church and a Southern Baptist Church was that they split over the issue of slavery. 

For sure. Same thing with the Episcopal/Anglican split over gay priests.

 

[massraider]

Here's another article on what's going on at McLean Bible Church: https://religionnews.com/2021/07/20/david-platt-mclean-bible-lawsuit-crt-woke-liberal-radical-votes-lawsuit/

That is a pretty crazy read. 

People are suing over a church elder vote. 

 

[Charlie Steiner]

I'll keep this to my own history...

The church I grew up in during the 70s (Lutheran) hired a young, idealistic pastor who wanted to come to our church at least in part because it was in DC. He went to  protests and was arrested at least once. The congregation didn't really join his crusade, but neither did they seem to object.

The church I attended where I met my wife, got married and started my family (United Methodist) didn't bring politics into the sermons, but it was clear that they pretty much leaned right.

The church I go to now (non-denominational but started by former members of my previous church) also mostly avoids politics and instead turns everything into turning toward prayer and scripture for answers as opposed to falling on any one side of the political aisle.

The church mentioned in the article is a mega-church, and up until recently had a favorable image as far as I know; their former head pastor's sermons could be heard on local Christian radio and was consistent with typical orthodox teaching, and their size enabled them to host concerts/events for popular/mainstream Christian artists and such. I'm not sure if it's just a coincidence that the 'fracturing' at this church started just a couple years after its long-time pastor stepped down or not, but I think most churches always have these kind of undercurrents running through them, where cliques form, turn into echo chambers and become a full-blown 'movement', which in the setting of mega-church just makes divisions harder to reconcile.  I think their situation was probably exacerbated by Trump's ability to convince these disgruntled congregants that he was on their side, which I guess to a degree supports the premise of the article. However, I don't believe this phenomenon is unique to Trump; the church I was going to during Dubya's presidency was teeming with his devotees, mainly for his stance on same-sex marriage.  What seems to be common is supporters of whoever the current President is won't hesitate to talk about how it's God's Will that he (and eventually, she) is President but will fall silent about one that they don't like, and that has probably existed as a thing since there has been organized religion of any kind.

To me, Christianity should be apolitical; it's about trying to be an example to others of the love and grace that God showed to us in the form of Jesus' life, death and resurrection. Political/social issues will come and go, and the challenge is how to deal with them in a manner pleasing to God, which it can be argued doesn't look the same in every situation.

Bottom line, @The Commish made the best point when he said the 'Evangelical Church' is not a monolith, and trying to extrapolate an entire seismic shift like this based on one example is nearly pointless.  At the same time, it's fair to concede that other churches may have similar issues to greater and lesser extents, but the results won't necessarily be the same.

 

[The Z Machine]

To me, Christianity should be apolitical; it's about trying to be an example to others of the love and grace that God showed to us in the form of Jesus' life, death and resurrection. Political/social issues will come and go, and the challenge is how to deal with them in a manner pleasing to God, which it can be argued doesn't look the same in every situation.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

I think that the main problem with the article is that at least in what I read it never defined what it meant by Evangelical Church.   It did include a link that went to here, but by that top line definition pretty much every Christian church would qualify.  But I think generally when Evangelical Church is used in such a context it would not include Catholics for example, or really any of the [mainline] "creed" orthodox offshoots.  So the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America would not normally be included even though evangelical is right there in the name; even though Luther more or less brought the term back into usage; even though it once meant any  Protestant church; even though if you asked an ELCA member the four questions in the methodology offered they could easily check all of the boxes.   That site offers a PDF of member churches to its organization which is probably closer to what the author had in mind, but I'm still not sure.  Maybe it doesn't matter.

 

[AAABatteries]

I've essentially given up on evangelical church for the following reasons:

• Trump
  
• The border
  
• Healthcare
  

The modern church, or at least the ones I've been a part of or are familiar with are filled with people that are much more aligned to Capitalism, the GOP and Nationalism than anything remotely resembling Christianity.  Jesus would be embarrassed that these people claim to be Christians and followers of Christ.

Astute readers will recognize that capitalism isn't promoted in the Bible.  And the idea that the United States is somehow God's chosen country is beyond absurd.  And I say that as someone who is very proud to be an American and loves the country.  But if you are a Christian then it has to be God > country > political affiliation and it's the exact opposite right now for way too many people.

 

[NorvilleBarnes]

scripture is clear on politics in church and people who adhere to the teachings have little tolerance for those that don't. 

It always surprises me when people say things like the scriptures are clear on this or that. There is literally nothing more fractured than the Christian church.

 

[The Commish]

It always surprises me when people say things like the scriptures are clear on this or that. There is literally nothing more fractured than the Christian church.

Sure. The fractures in the churches arent because of the text. Conflating two things here

 

[NorvilleBarnes]

Sure. The fractures in the churches arent because of the text. Conflating two things here

Again, respectfully disagree. The scriptures are anything but "clear" and open to wildly diverse interpretation (and translation) imho. But I don't really have a dog in any of the fights so I'll bow out.

 

[massraider]

  And the idea that the United States is somehow God's chosen country is beyond absurd. 

Are you sure? I don't see any reason why God cannot have a favorite country, and we still have that new country smell.  

 

[joffer]

Are you sure? I don't see any reason why God cannot have a favorite country, and we still have that new country smell.  

tough to beat out The Federated States of Micronesia

 

[Chaz McNulty]

Are you sure? I don't see any reason why God cannot have a favorite country, and we still have that new country smell.  

He already has one.

On the 6th day God turned to Archangel Gabriel and said: "Today I am going to create a land called Canada, it will be a land of outstanding natural beauty. It shall have tall majestic mountains,beautiful sparkling lakes bountiful with bass and trout, forests full of elk and moose, high cliffs over-looking sandy beaches with an abundance of sea life, and rivers stocked with salmon."

God continued, "I shall make the land rich in oil so as to make the inhabitants prosper, I shall call these inhabitants Canadians, and they shall be known as the most friendly and kindest people on the earth."

"But Lord," asked Gabriel, "don't you think you are being too generous to these Canadians?"

"Not really," replied God, "just wait untill I make their neighbours "

 

[Wildcat]

I’m on the board for a small town church in Nebraska. Approximately 100 people on a Sunday service.  We have noticed none of this at our church. I agree with the other poster that the term “evangelical church” isn’t a monolithic thing and somehow it keeps getting framed that way, likely because of those on the outside that assume it is.  

 

[GroveDiesel]

I think the reality is that the political movement behind Trump has magnified and hastened already existing movements.

This is all my humble opinion, but I believe that there are large numbers of Christians in general who have been trending towards being a cultural group more than a spiritual group for quite some time. Their identity as Christians has become defined by the things they do and people they associate with more than being defined by the words, commands, and life of Jesus. When your identity becomes attached to the things that you do as a Christian and the people you associate with, affiliating with political groups as a priority over affiliating with the church is a natural tendency IMO.

Frankly, that movement/attitude seems just like the Pharisees that Jesus so often criticized.

But I definitely see it happening. I saw a Twitter post the other day that, sadly, I think is too often true. It said something like: People are more likely to leave their church over politics than leave their politics over church.

The church I go to and am an elder at would fall into the evangelical camp. We play it incredibly down the middle and have stressed our need for commonality and unity in Jesus among all else. We routinely talk about how we’re a very “purple” church rather than red or blue and how that can be an amazing thing. And over the last 2 years we’ve had a number of families leave our church over politics still. The funny thing is that some have left because they believe we are too liberal and some have left because they believe we are too conservative. I don’t think that any of them actually ever specifically said they were even leaving, they just kind of stopped coming and went to another church in the area that was clearly political in the direction they leaned. I imagine that is much more the norm than public fracturing. Covid made that even easier to do, especially in churches that stopped meeting in person for awhile. Folks used that as the opportunity to just quietly leave and go somewhere else.

 

[The Commish]

I think the reality is that the political movement behind Trump has magnified and hastened already existing movements.

This is all my humble opinion, but I believe that there are large numbers of Christians in general who have been trending towards being a cultural group more than a spiritual group for quite some time. Their identity as Christians has become defined by the things they do and people they associate with more than being defined by the words, commands, and life of Jesus. When your identity becomes attached to the things that you do as a Christian and the people you associate with, affiliating with political groups as a priority over affiliating with the church is a natural tendency IMO.

Frankly, that movement/attitude seems just like the Pharisees that Jesus so often criticized.

But I definitely see it happening. I saw a Twitter post the other day that, sadly, I think is too often true. It said something like: People are more likely to leave their church over politics than leave their politics over church.

The church I go to and am an elder at would fall into the evangelical camp. We play it incredibly down the middle and have stressed our need for commonality and unity in Jesus among all else. We routinely talk about how we’re a very “purple” church rather than red or blue and how that can be an amazing thing. And over the last 2 years we’ve had a number of families leave our church over politics still. The funny thing is that some have left because they believe we are too liberal and some have left because they believe we are too conservative. I don’t think that any of them actually ever specifically said they were even leaving, they just kind of stopped coming and went to another church in the area that was clearly political in the direction they leaned. I imagine that is much more the norm than public fracturing. Covid made that even easier to do, especially in churches that stopped meeting in person for awhile. Folks used that as the opportunity to just quietly leave and go somewhere else.

This is pretty spot on, especially the bold.  Seen this in numerous places.  

 

[Yankee23Fan]

I know that we have a lot of smart, thoughtful Evangelical Christians on this board and I'm really curious to hear your takes on this article:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/10/evangelical-trump-christians-politics/620469/

As a non-practicing Jew I have no insight as to whether or not this is a widespread issue in the Evangelical Church but I do see elements of this in everyday life and news stories such as a significant number of Evangelicals promoting anti-vax theories as a type of "end times" fulfillment of scripture.

This is NOT an attack post, I'm just genuinely curious if Evangelical FBGs are seeing this type of schism in their own congregations. This article is the first I've heard of this.

Not every church is going through this obviously, and most of us can only speak on our experience. But I have been intimately involved in this for the past 4 years. It has consumed my life.

I agree with just about everything he wrote.

 

[GroveDiesel]

This is pretty spot on, especially the bold.  Seen this in numerous places.  

I hesitated posting it because it really is kind of judgemental and I’ve steadily progressed in my life away from being judgemental as much as possible. But I think it’s such a dangerous path and is leading many astray. It saddens me more than anything.

And as I somewhat alluded to, while I think it’s taken hold most right now in that evangelical group on the right, I do think that it affects/infects both sides of the aisle.

What’s especially frustrating is that we’ve had people leave our church because they THOUGHT our church had a certain stance on an issue, or they THOUGHT one of our pastors held specific political views. But rather than sit down and discuss it with them (something our pastors and elders are great at doing in a loving and constructive way), they simply left. In one case despite our lead pastor begging them to stop complaining about another pastor to other people and simply sit down with him to talk it over like Jesus commands in Matthew 18.

 

[The Commish]

I hesitated posting it because it really is kind of judgemental and I’ve steadily progressed in my life away from being judgemental as much as possible. But I think it’s such a dangerous path and is leading many astray. It saddens me more than anything.

And as I somewhat alluded to, while I think it’s taken hold most right now in that evangelical group on the right, I do think that it affects/infects both sides of the aisle.

What’s especially frustrating is that we’ve had people leave our church because they THOUGHT our church had a certain stance on an issue, or they THOUGHT one of our pastors held specific political views. But rather than sit down and discuss it with them (something our pastors and elders are great at doing in a loving and constructive way), they simply left. In one case despite our lead pastor begging them to stop complaining about another pastor to other people and simply sit down with him to talk it over like Jesus commands in Matthew 18.

I didn't read any of what you wrote as "judgmental" FWIW.  It is what it is.  It's rather clear.  I know Norville disagrees but it really is.  The message as a whole is not complicated and if there's ever a question, it's safe to take the path that requires personal responsibility or humbleness or putting others before yourself etc.  Loving each other, raising others up (even at one's own expense) and keeping your eyes on God are basically it.  The rest is noise and the "complicated" instances are almost ALWAYS people unable to get out of their own way or people who come to scripture looking for validation of something they've done/believe instead of coming to scripture to see what they should do/believe.  

 

[dgreen]

Not every church is going through this obviously, and most of us can only speak on our experience. But I have been intimately involved in this for the past 4 years. It has consumed my life.

I agree with just about everything he wrote.

That sucks. Are you willing to share some details?

 

[Stealthycat]

isn't it all about money ?

and where money is involved, rarely is Jesus 

 

[Mile High]

isn't it all about money ?

and where money is involved, rarely is Jesus 

Pretty much. Money is our Jesus. 

 

[Stealthycat]

Pretty much. Money is our Jesus. 

money is why churches compromise doctrine

in this example, selling the church to muslims and being conservative - which off's a lot of young people which means they don't go to church which means they don't tithe/offer which is ... money

if you want everyone to come to your church - and bring their money - the popular belief is you have to tell them their lifestyle is ok ..... want to be an adulterer? that's ok. homosexual? that's ok. abuse drugs, alcohol and food? that's ok !  everything is ok - just come, bring your money, have a fresh coffee, sing, listen to a preacher for 40 minutes ...

don't read the Bible and all that it says though - it might offend someone 

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

don't read the Bible and all that it says though - it might offend someone 

That might be true of churches in a general sense, but there is no definition of evangelical church where this could apply.

if you want everyone to come to your church - and bring their money - the popular belief is you have to tell them their lifestyle is ok ..... want to be an adulterer? that's ok. homosexual? that's ok. abuse drugs, alcohol and food? that's ok !  everything is ok - just come, bring your money, have a fresh coffee, sing, listen to a preacher for 40 minutes ..

This also might be true for churches in general, but being "born again" where you leave all of this type of sinful behavior in your wretched past is also part of the modern definition of evangelical church.