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"Roethlisberger manages the game...." (1 Viewer)

Evilgrin 72

Distributor of Pain
I am STILL reading comments like these today :Roethlisberger's success can be attributed to the Steelers systemHe is a great GAME MANAGERThey don't rely on him to win games, just to manage the game and not turn the ball overPlease, enough already. I know he doesn't throw the ball 40 times a game, because the Steelers are almost always winning in the second half and their goal is to "take the air out of the ball" at that point, not to blaze downfield and pile up points. Roethlisberger's yards per attempt are consistently near the top of the NFL. Furthermore, all 3 of the teams that the Steelers have played in the playoffs thus far have gone all-out to shut the run down, and it has been Roethlisberger who has been winning these games for them. He did it against Cincinnati, against Indy, and again today. He is not simply controlling the ball and not making mistakes, he is flat out winning games with his arm. If you can't see this by now, you just don't want to.Can we please stop saying things like : "Eli is just as good, he plays in a high-octane offense, while Ben is simply asked not to turn the ball over." This is just not true. The guy is not Trent Dilfer on the 2000 Ravens, he is winning games regularly by his play in the first half of games, getting the lead, and allowing the Steelers to pound the ball in the second half.TIA.

 

cracKer

Shawn Culcasi
There's nothing wrong with being a great game manager. I'd say it's a fairly important aspect of being a successfull QB.

 
C

CrossEyed

Guest
Let them keep thinking that Evilgrin. And we'll just keep enjoying the development of one of the best QBs in the game. :thumbup: :towelwave:

 

Boston

Footballguy
I heard the same BS with Brady. Big Ben is a big time QB regardless of what system he's in. Sometimes I think people say stuff like this because they're looking for reasons to knock down a winner.

 

Thorn

Footballguy
Fair enough, but can you please ask him to stop throwing off his back foot? That'd be great.TIA

 

GiantsRule

Footballguy
I am STILL reading comments like these today :

Roethlisberger's success can be attributed to the Steelers system

He is a great GAME MANAGER

They don't rely on him to win games, just to manage the game and not turn the ball over

Please, enough already. I know he doesn't throw the ball 40 times a game, because the Steelers are almost always winning in the second half and their goal is to "take the air out of the ball" at that point, not to blaze downfield and pile up points. Roethlisberger's yards per attempt are consistently near the top of the NFL. Furthermore, all 3 of the teams that the Steelers have played in the playoffs thus far have gone all-out to shut the run down, and it has been Roethlisberger who has been winning these games for them. He did it against Cincinnati, against Indy, and again today. He is not simply controlling the ball and not making mistakes, he is flat out winning games with his arm. If you can't see this by now, you just don't want to.

Can we please stop saying things like : "Eli is just as good, he plays in a high-octane offense, while Ben is simply asked not to turn the ball over." This is just not true. The guy is not Trent Dilfer on the 2000 Ravens, he is winning games regularly by his play in the first half of games, getting the lead, and allowing the Steelers to pound the ball in the second half.

TIA.
That's what everyone was saying about Tom Brady too, and now look at him.Only difference is, Big Ben and Co. will never cry like babies about "getting no respect".

 

Bojang0301

Omar4Heisman
Fair enough, but can you please ask him to stop throwing off his back foot? That'd be great.

TIA
If he does it with accuracy I could give a ####. Look at how Farve played in his heyday.
 

Fantasy Man

Footballguy
I'm sold on him now. He's a big time QB. But the Steelers fans getting all bent out of shape over this is kind of rediculous. Last year, he was a rookie QB managing his team to a 15-1 season. This year, he mostly also managed the team in the regular season. For whatever reason in the playoffs this year, Cowher took the reins off. But let's not act like he's been carrying or doing anything but "managing" the team up until the playoffs this year.

 

cracKer

Shawn Culcasi
You guys act like it's not even a valid argument. The dude attempts 22 passes per game while the Steelers run the ball more than anyone in the league. Without being a Steelers fan and watching the majority of their games (which I assume you guys do), the assumption has to be that he's not relied upon as much as a QB whose team throws the ball 60% of the time.The fact is that the other Steeler QBs don't "manage" the offense as well as Roethlisberger does, which is why he's winning (and will continue winning).With his completion percentage and YPA, he may be a guy who puts up some serious stats one day if they ever open up the offense.

 

jurb26

Footballguy
You guys act like it's not even a valid argument. The dude attempts 22 passes per game while the Steelers run the ball more than anyone in the league. Without being a Steelers fan and watching the majority of their games (which I assume you guys do), the assumption has to be that he's not relied upon as much as a QB whose team throws the ball 60% of the time.

The fact is that the other Steeler QBs don't "manage" the offense as well as Roethlisberger does, which is why he's winning (and will continue winning).

With his completion percentage and YPA, he may be a guy who puts up some serious stats one day if they ever open up the offense.
So it's the guys who do nothing but look at the stat lines at the end of the week who know more about a player than the guys who live and die by the Steelers and watch every snap as if it was their last on a weekly basis. Riiiiiiight.
 

Evilgrin 72

Distributor of Pain
You guys act like it's not even a valid argument. The dude attempts 22 passes per game while the Steelers run the ball more than anyone in the league. Without being a Steelers fan and watching the majority of their games (which I assume you guys do), the assumption has to be that he's not relied upon as much as a QB whose team throws the ball 60% of the time.

The fact is that the other Steeler QBs don't "manage" the offense as well as Roethlisberger does, which is why he's winning (and will continue winning).

With his completion percentage and YPA, he may be a guy who puts up some serious stats one day if they ever open up the offense.
I agree that being able to manage the game is important, and as you put it, complementary. What I take issue with are the comments that say "he's a great game manager..." with the unwritten codicil of "but not a great QB." It's all in the context, and it's not hard to tell what people mean.At least people have stopped saying the Steelers win in spite of him, but I really don't get the "he isn't asked to do much" and the "he really just needs to not turn the ball over" comments. Nothing could be further from the truth, and without him there is no way they're playing in the Super Bowl in 2 weeks. He's been the Steelers' playoff MVP without question.

To answer the previous post, I'm not getting bent out of shape over this, I just keep seeing those comments and it makes me want to :wall: because it's so off the mark.

 

cracKer

Shawn Culcasi
You guys act like it's not even a valid argument. The dude attempts 22 passes per game while the Steelers run the ball more than anyone in the league. Without being a Steelers fan and watching the majority of their games (which I assume you guys do), the assumption has to be that he's not relied upon as much as a QB whose team throws the ball 60% of the time.

The fact is that the other Steeler QBs don't "manage" the offense as well as Roethlisberger does, which is why he's winning (and will continue winning).

With his completion percentage and YPA, he may be a guy who puts up some serious stats one day if they ever open up the offense.
So it's the guys who do nothing but look at the stat lines at the end of the week who know more about a player than the guys who live and die by the Steelers and watch every snap as if it was their last on a weekly basis. Riiiiiiight.
I didn't say that, but I'd bet that's where a lot of the argument comes from.Just remember...If everyone here watched every snap of every Steelers game, then you wouldn't be special :)

 

Thorn

Footballguy
I am STILL reading comments like these today :

Roethlisberger's success can be attributed to the Steelers system

He is a great GAME MANAGER

They don't rely on him to win games, just to manage the game and not turn the ball over

Please, enough already.  I know he doesn't throw the ball 40 times a game, because the Steelers are almost always winning in the second half and their goal is to "take the air out of the ball" at that point, not to blaze downfield and pile up points.  Roethlisberger's yards per attempt are consistently near the top of the NFL.  Furthermore, all 3 of the teams that the Steelers have played in the playoffs thus far have gone all-out to shut the run down, and it has been Roethlisberger who has been winning these games for them.  He did it against Cincinnati, against Indy, and again today.  He is not simply controlling the ball and not making mistakes, he is flat out winning games with his arm.  If you can't see this by now, you just don't want to.

Can we please stop saying things like : "Eli is just as good, he plays in a high-octane offense, while Ben is simply asked not to turn the ball over."  This is just not true.  The guy is not Trent Dilfer on the 2000 Ravens, he is winning games regularly by his play in the first half of games, getting the lead, and allowing the Steelers to pound the ball in the second half.

TIA.
That's what everyone was saying about Tom Brady too, and now look at him.Only difference is, Big Ben and Co. will never cry like babies about "getting no respect".
Every single team playing any major sport uses "no respect" as a motivator these days. The Pats didn't invent it, nor will the Steelers put an end to it.
 

Thorn

Footballguy
Fair enough, but can you please ask him to stop throwing off his back foot? That'd be great.

TIA
If he does it with accuracy I could give a ####. Look at how Farve played in his heyday.
Right and if he does he'll be great.He ain't no Favre.

 

Serenity Now

Footballguy
I am STILL reading comments like these today :

Roethlisberger's success can be attributed to the Steelers system

He is a great GAME MANAGER

They don't rely on him to win games, just to manage the game and not turn the ball over

Please, enough already.  I know he doesn't throw the ball 40 times a game, because the Steelers are almost always winning in the second half and their goal is to "take the air out of the ball" at that point, not to blaze downfield and pile up points.  Roethlisberger's yards per attempt are consistently near the top of the NFL.  Furthermore, all 3 of the teams that the Steelers have played in the playoffs thus far have gone all-out to shut the run down, and it has been Roethlisberger who has been winning these games for them.  He did it against Cincinnati, against Indy, and again today.  He is not simply controlling the ball and not making mistakes, he is flat out winning games with his arm.  If you can't see this by now, you just don't want to.

Can we please stop saying things like : "Eli is just as good, he plays in a high-octane offense, while Ben is simply asked not to turn the ball over."  This is just not true.  The guy is not Trent Dilfer on the 2000 Ravens, he is winning games regularly by his play in the first half of games, getting the lead, and allowing the Steelers to pound the ball in the second half.

TIA.
That's what everyone was saying about Tom Brady too, and now look at him.Only difference is, Big Ben and Co. will never cry like babies about "getting no respect".
Every single team playing any major sport uses "no respect" as a motivator these days. The Pats didn't invent it, nor will the Steelers put an end to it.
No, they'll just whine about not being able to make their SB travel plans before they play the game, right? That ring a bell for anyone? ;) And you can lay money right now on some Steelers fans crowing about how nobody respected the Steelers if they complete this run.

 

GiantsRule

Footballguy
I am STILL reading comments like these today :

Roethlisberger's success can be attributed to the Steelers system

He is a great GAME MANAGER

They don't rely on him to win games, just to manage the game and not turn the ball over

Please, enough already.  I know he doesn't throw the ball 40 times a game, because the Steelers are almost always winning in the second half and their goal is to "take the air out of the ball" at that point, not to blaze downfield and pile up points.  Roethlisberger's yards per attempt are consistently near the top of the NFL.  Furthermore, all 3 of the teams that the Steelers have played in the playoffs thus far have gone all-out to shut the run down, and it has been Roethlisberger who has been winning these games for them.  He did it against Cincinnati, against Indy, and again today.  He is not simply controlling the ball and not making mistakes, he is flat out winning games with his arm.  If you can't see this by now, you just don't want to.

Can we please stop saying things like : "Eli is just as good, he plays in a high-octane offense, while Ben is simply asked not to turn the ball over."  This is just not true.  The guy is not Trent Dilfer on the 2000 Ravens, he is winning games regularly by his play in the first half of games, getting the lead, and allowing the Steelers to pound the ball in the second half.

TIA.
That's what everyone was saying about Tom Brady too, and now look at him.Only difference is, Big Ben and Co. will never cry like babies about "getting no respect".
Every single team playing any major sport uses "no respect" as a motivator these days. The Pats didn't invent it, nor will the Steelers put an end to it.
Oh really? When's the last time you heard the Spurs use it? The Yankees? Hell, I can't stand the Lakers, but you never once heard the team's leaders during the dynasty (Shaq and Phil Jackson) talk about "no respect".It's different when it's a team trying to prove themselves. It's another when it's a 3-time champion and their incredibly annoying fans whining about it incessently when they aren't the center of attention 24X7X365.

 
It's different when it's a team trying to prove themselves. It's another when it's a 3-time champion and their incredibly annoying fans whining about it incessently when they aren't the center of attention 24X7X365.
2004 was a leap year, so they got to whine an extra day.
 

EBF

Footballguy
I've been an outspoken Roethlisberger supporter since last year and have always argued that he's much more similar to Manning than Aikman (whom he has almost nothing in common with other than a high win %). I think people are starting to realize how good Ben is, but it seems like it's going to be a slow process. For whatever reason, a lot of people are still trying to convince themselves that he's nothing but a game manager who excels due to a strong supporting cast. I've never really bought that argument. Personally, I'd have a tough time trading Roethlisberger for any QB other than Peyton Manning. McNabb and Palmer each have their merits, but McNabb has a weaker supporting cast and Palmer has the injury concerns. A strong case can also be made for Bulger or Brady over Roethlisberger, but in a dynasty league I'd lean towards #7.

 

The Reverend

Footballguy
You guys act like it's not even a valid argument. The dude attempts 22 passes per game while the Steelers run the ball more than anyone in the league. Without being a Steelers fan and watching the majority of their games (which I assume you guys do), the assumption has to be that he's not relied upon as much as a QB whose team throws the ball 60% of the time.

The fact is that the other Steeler QBs don't "manage" the offense as well as Roethlisberger does, which is why he's winning (and will continue winning).

With his completion percentage and YPA, he may be a guy who puts up some serious stats one day if they ever open up the offense.
I agree that being able to manage the game is important, and as you put it, complementary. What I take issue with are the comments that say "he's a great game manager..." with the unwritten codicil of "but not a great QB." It's all in the context, and it's not hard to tell what people mean.At least people have stopped saying the Steelers win in spite of him, but I really don't get the "he isn't asked to do much" and the "he really just needs to not turn the ball over" comments. Nothing could be further from the truth, and without him there is no way they're playing in the Super Bowl in 2 weeks. He's been the Steelers' playoff MVP without question.

To answer the previous post, I'm not getting bent out of shape over this, I just keep seeing those comments and it makes me want to :wall: because it's so off the mark.
CODICIL - A supplement or addition to a will that explains, modifies, or revokes a previous will provision or that adds an additional provision. A codicil must be signed and witnessed with the same formalities as those used in the will's preparation.An addition or supplement to a will; it must be executed with the same solemnities. A codicil is a part of the will, the two instruments making but one will.

There may be several codicils to one will and the whole will be taken as one: the codicil does not consequently revoke the will further than it is in opposition to some of its particular dispositions, unless there be express words of revocation.

Formerly, the difference between a will and a codicil consisted in that in the former an executor was named while in the latter none was appointed. This is the distinction of the civil law and adopted by the canon law.

Codicils were chiefly intended to mitigate the strictness of the ancient Roman law, which required that a will should be attested by seven Roman citizens, omni exceptione majores. A legacy could be bequeathed, but the heir could not be appointed by codicil, though he might be made heir indirectly by way of fidei commissum.

Codicils owe their origin to the following circumstances. Lucius Lentulus, dying in Africa, left codicils confirmed by anticipation in a will of former date and in those codicils requested the emperor Augustus, by way of fidei commissum or trust, to do something therein expressed. The emperor carried this will into effect and the daughter of Lentulus paid legacies which she would not otherwise have been legally bound to pay. Other persons made similar fidei-commissa and then the emperor, by the advice of learned men whom he consulted, sanctioned the making of codicils and thus they became clothed with legal authority.

 
C

CrossEyed

Guest
Fair enough, but can you please ask him to stop throwing off his back foot? That'd be great.

TIA
If he does it with accuracy I could give a ####. Look at how Farve played in his heyday.
Right and if he does he'll be great.He ain't no Favre.
You're right, he doesn't throw enough picks to be Favre.
 

Green and Gold

Footballguy
Remember when everyone thought Brady was just a "game-manager?" Big Ben is nothing else but a very good quarterback that has a great future ahead of him. You can't dilute that statement by saying semi-derrogatory things like game manager or product of the system. How many bad throws did you see him make today? A lot less than Tom Brady last week, that's for sure. A lot of that is due to excellent line play, but he still put the ball where it needed to go almost every single time.I may be a Pats fan, but I have eyes.GG

 

Zaphod

Two heads are better than one
The one thing that bothers me about the people that want to cite the 'game manager' aspect is what situations he is being asked to have to make the plays. This isn't a #3 RB that is getting a high YPC on 3 and 15 draw plays. He is usually asked to throw in second and long and third down (more obvious passing downs) or when the running game has been shut down.Now the last 3 games they have come out throwing on 1st and 2nd down, but over the course of his 2 years, I would bet that a higher percentage of his attempts are in 'passing situations', than the NFL average.

 

valhallan

Footballguy
Anybody that didn't know he was special after the Dallas game last year is either stupid or just stubborn. And I hate the Steelers.

 
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ren hoek

Footballguy
Call me a hater, whatever. I've come around and realized that Ben has the potential to be a great passing quarterback, and he does what's asked of him as well as anybody really could. But I think the 'game manager' label during the regular season was fair game, because as cracker said, he rarely ever has to throw a significant amount to win. I made the argument when the Steelers beat the Bengals in Cincinnati that Ben gets all sorts of credit for playing on a great team that wins a lot of games. His stat line that game was something like 93 yards with 2 TDs.. but in the play-offs it's become pretty obvious that he can play in a high-powered offense. So I give him credit for that.All that said though, I've honestly never seen a game where Ben makes incredible throws through coverage to win. Granted, I can't validate that statement with significant evidence, but I honestly can't recall him having one of those Elway/Favre type of games where it seems like he could walk on water if he tried. It seems like the guys he's throwing to are usually wide open, and if he doesn't get a decent amount of time to throw, as with any quarterback (and as was the case with Brady this past week), he looks very pedestrian. I guess what I'm trying to say, is that I'm getting pretty damn sick of the "great QB" argument. He's a good quarterback on a GREAT team. Brady was a good QB on a GREAT team. Elway was a good QB on a GREAT team for many years, but somehow he had the reputation of Marino until his team finally won the SB. There will always be people who are inclined to give all the credit in the world to the QB and a hand full of players with name recognition, but I'm hoping that the more knowledgeable types will begin to realize that Super Bowls are won by great teams- not just good quarterbacks.

 

ren hoek

Footballguy
So it's the guys who do nothing but look at the stat lines at the end of the week who know more about a player than the guys who live and die by the Steelers and watch every snap as if it was their last on a weekly basis.
No. It's the raving homer fans who I lend credibility to when describing their team's quarterback.
 

mcjc4

Footballguy
I am STILL reading comments like these today :

Roethlisberger's success can be attributed to the Steelers system

He is a great GAME MANAGER

They don't rely on him to win games, just to manage the game and not turn the ball over

Please, enough already.  I know he doesn't throw the ball 40 times a game, because the Steelers are almost always winning in the second half and their goal is to "take the air out of the ball" at that point, not to blaze downfield and pile up points.  Roethlisberger's yards per attempt are consistently near the top of the NFL.  Furthermore, all 3 of the teams that the Steelers have played in the playoffs thus far have gone all-out to shut the run down, and it has been Roethlisberger who has been winning these games for them.  He did it against Cincinnati, against Indy, and again today.  He is not simply controlling the ball and not making mistakes, he is flat out winning games with his arm.  If you can't see this by now, you just don't want to.

Can we please stop saying things like : "Eli is just as good, he plays in a high-octane offense, while Ben is simply asked not to turn the ball over."  This is just not true.  The guy is not Trent Dilfer on the 2000 Ravens, he is winning games regularly by his play in the first half of games, getting the lead, and allowing the Steelers to pound the ball in the second half.

TIA.
That's what everyone was saying about Tom Brady too, and now look at him.Only difference is, Big Ben and Co. will never cry like babies about "getting no respect".
Oh, 3 other small difference, the 3 pieces of jewelry Brady has over the last 4 years.
 

Spartans Rule

Footballguy
Seeing the term "game manager" generally makes me cringe. It's a cliche for fans who want to label QBs as winners and losers and ignore the other 21 players on the field.You can't water down a quarterback's responsibilities to "taking care of the offense" and "not making mistakes" just because he's on a good team. Quarterbacks have to complete passes, regardless of their team's philosophy or overall talent level. Even the most conservative offense needs to throw the ball down the field from time to time to keep the defense honest.When the 2000 Ravens won the Super Bowl, it wasn't because Trent Dilfer "managed the game" so well. He certainly didn't avoid mistakes - he threw 11 INTs in 225 pass attempts! What Dilfer did do was make throws. The same throws every other QB has to make. He threw the ball down the field and punished the defense if it tried to bring the safeties up in to the box - see long TD pass to Stokley in the Super Bowl.Dilfer didn't do anything magical that any other decent QB couldn't, but he's often lauded as a great game manager. Nonsense. He's an average QB by any measure. His team was just really good.As for Roethlisberger... I think he's a very good QB. Not because his team wins, not because he manages the game, but because he completes passes.

 

Chaz

Footballguy
Had it been the Steelers moving up and taking Eli, and now they are going to the Super Bowl, Eli would be thought of as the next coming of (fill in all time great here).As a Giants fan, let me say that Pitts is coming out of that QB controversy (Eli-Philip-Ben) looking pretty good. AND...they got to keep all of their picks in that draft and had a #1 the following year! :rant:

 

pizzatyme

Footballguy
With a limited body of work it was easy for me to be critical of Big Ben. However, in this post-season, he has shown me the ability to do what is necessary to help his team win. The pass to Ward in the back of the endzone was terrific.I am no longer a doubter.It is going to be amazing over the next few years to see the QB play in the AFC. Palmer, Manning, Brady and Ben, wow!It is obvious that the GM's and coaches will be the difference makers. Who can assemble the best team and who can coach those players will be paramount.There are no losers in this group. But, the winners will definitely have earned it.Big Ben, you earned it! Congrats.

 

djcolts

Footballguy
I thought he was going to be great after I saw the Dallas game last year. He just hit a rookie wall late last year. I'm impressed as heck with this guy as a player and he clearly bring his team up a couple of notches when he is starting (and healthy).

 

Evilgrin 72

Distributor of Pain
Agreed, only if you agree that he's not the best in the game.
I don't think he's the best in the game at all. I think he's already ONE of the best (top 5-10) and has the potential to someday in the not-too-distant future be the best, but he's not right now. I just think the guy deserves a little more credit for his passing prowess than he gets. He has won all 3 of these playoff games with his arm, the running game has not been dominant yet, because defenses are scheming to take it away. This creates opportunities in the passing game, and where he was not able to take advantage last year, this year he has.
 

Evilgrin 72

Distributor of Pain
You guys act like it's not even a valid argument. The dude attempts 22 passes per game while the Steelers run the ball more than anyone in the league. Without being a Steelers fan and watching the majority of their games (which I assume you guys do), the assumption has to be that he's not relied upon as much as a QB whose team throws the ball 60% of the time.

The fact is that the other Steeler QBs don't "manage" the offense as well as Roethlisberger does, which is why he's winning (and will continue winning).

With his completion percentage and YPA, he may be a guy who puts up some serious stats one day if they ever open up the offense.
I agree that being able to manage the game is important, and as you put it, complementary. What I take issue with are the comments that say "he's a great game manager..." with the unwritten codicil of "but not a great QB." It's all in the context, and it's not hard to tell what people mean.At least people have stopped saying the Steelers win in spite of him, but I really don't get the "he isn't asked to do much" and the "he really just needs to not turn the ball over" comments. Nothing could be further from the truth, and without him there is no way they're playing in the Super Bowl in 2 weeks. He's been the Steelers' playoff MVP without question.

To answer the previous post, I'm not getting bent out of shape over this, I just keep seeing those comments and it makes me want to :wall: because it's so off the mark.
CODICIL - A supplement or addition to a will that explains, modifies, or revokes a previous will provision or that adds an additional provision. A codicil must be signed and witnessed with the same formalities as those used in the will's preparation.An addition or supplement to a will; it must be executed with the same solemnities. A codicil is a part of the will, the two instruments making but one will.

There may be several codicils to one will and the whole will be taken as one: the codicil does not consequently revoke the will further than it is in opposition to some of its particular dispositions, unless there be express words of revocation.

Formerly, the difference between a will and a codicil consisted in that in the former an executor was named while in the latter none was appointed. This is the distinction of the civil law and adopted by the canon law.

Codicils were chiefly intended to mitigate the strictness of the ancient Roman law, which required that a will should be attested by seven Roman citizens, omni exceptione majores. A legacy could be bequeathed, but the heir could not be appointed by codicil, though he might be made heir indirectly by way of fidei commissum.

Codicils owe their origin to the following circumstances. Lucius Lentulus, dying in Africa, left codicils confirmed by anticipation in a will of former date and in those codicils requested the emperor Augustus, by way of fidei commissum or trust, to do something therein expressed. The emperor carried this will into effect and the daughter of Lentulus paid legacies which she would not otherwise have been legally bound to pay. Other persons made similar fidei-commissa and then the emperor, by the advice of learned men whom he consulted, sanctioned the making of codicils and thus they became clothed with legal authority.
I know the definition of "codicil." It's not ALWAYS used in relation to a will, although that is the literal definition. A codicil is an addendum, people use the word in relation to any written document, by-laws, a constitiution, etc. In my statement above, it refers to the unspoken(written) addendum - "but not a great QB."Chefs use the word accoutrements all the time to to refer to the ancillary aspects of a dish or meanl (condiments, garnish, etc..) and that's completely wrong by the letter of the law, so to speak. This isn't a vocabulary class, it's a football discussion.

 

Evilgrin 72

Distributor of Pain
Call me a hater, whatever. I've come around and realized that Ben has the potential to be a great passing quarterback, and he does what's asked of him as well as anybody really could. But I think the 'game manager' label during the regular season was fair game, because as cracker said, he rarely ever has to throw a significant amount to win. I made the argument when the Steelers beat the Bengals in Cincinnati that Ben gets all sorts of credit for playing on a great team that wins a lot of games. His stat line that game was something like 93 yards with 2 TDs.. but in the play-offs it's become pretty obvious that he can play in a high-powered offense. So I give him credit for that.

All that said though, I've honestly never seen a game where Ben makes incredible throws through coverage to win. Granted, I can't validate that statement with significant evidence, but I honestly can't recall him having one of those Elway/Favre type of games where it seems like he could walk on water if he tried. It seems like the guys he's throwing to are usually wide open, and if he doesn't get a decent amount of time to throw, as with any quarterback (and as was the case with Brady this past week), he looks very pedestrian. I guess what I'm trying to say, is that I'm getting pretty damn sick of the "great QB" argument. He's a good quarterback on a GREAT team. Brady was a good QB on a GREAT team. Elway was a good QB on a GREAT team for many years, but somehow he had the reputation of Marino until his team finally won the SB. There will always be people who are inclined to give all the credit in the world to the QB and a hand full of players with name recognition, but I'm hoping that the more knowledgeable types will begin to realize that Super Bowls are won by great teams- not just good quarterbacks.
I understand and respect your viewpoint, and agree with much of what you say. The bolded part just doesn't ring true to me though. He has excellent escapabilty, and actually has a higher passer rating when hurried/hit than he does on plays where he sits in the pocket. I believe he's the only QB in the NFL to whom this pertains, so I'd say he does better than most without good time to throw.I agree with the spirit of your post though, except I'd say he's now a very good QB on a great team. The thing is, he's one of the, if not the, biggest reason why the team is great. Look at the games he didn't start... the Steelers are at best an 8-8 team without him under center. With him, they're 12-3 so far this year, and the best team in the AFC.

 

Evilgrin 72

Distributor of Pain
Had it been the Steelers moving up and taking Eli, and now they are going to the Super Bowl, Eli would be thought of as the next coming of (fill in all time great here).

As a Giants fan, let me say that Pitts is coming out of that QB controversy (Eli-Philip-Ben) looking pretty good. AND...they got to keep all of their picks in that draft and had a #1 the following year! :rant:
You're assuming here that the Steelers would still be going to the Super Bowl under Eli, and I'd say that's not a lead-pipe cinch by any stretch.
 
Yo Evilgrin GB, think we can get a smiling avatar for at least one day before you put your game face back on.Congrats to your guys, they are having a great run.

 

Serenity Now

Footballguy
I see Roethlisberger very much like Brady. Further, I think the Steelers this year are much like the Pats when they started their run. He'll only continue to get better and will hopefully make believers out of people as the years continue. He's only 23, fergawdsakes.

 

John 14:6

Jesus is Lord!
I haven't been able to watch the Steelers all year, but Ben has amazed me these last few weeks with the fact he's only in his second year. He's a fantastic QB.The NFL should be fun to watch with Ben, Brady, Palmer, et al having their careers ahead of them. :thumbup:

 

Shermanator

Footballguy
Ben will always have that moniker until he has to come back and win a big game on his own. That was the the situation last year against the Jets, and he fell apart like a house of cards.Until then, he will be labeled a good game manager.Thats just the reality

 

valhallan

Footballguy
All that said though, I've honestly never seen a game where Ben makes incredible throws through coverage to win.
Did you not see the TD pass to Ward yesterday?
And he basically beat New England on his own with two touchdowns to Burress in the first quarter last year. It took Manning what, 7 tries and a million injuries to beat the Patriots?
 

bostonfred

Footballguy
BradyManningRoethlisbergerVickPalmerHasselbeckDelhommeFavreAs of this moment, with Palmer hurt, Hasselbeck winning and Delhomme losing, Favre coming off a bad year, and Vick needing one more year in the WCO, I think Roethlisberger can be considered as high as #3 on this list.

 

bostonfred

Footballguy
All that said though, I've honestly never seen a game where Ben makes incredible throws through coverage to win. 
Did you not see the TD pass to Ward yesterday?
And he basically beat New England on his own with two touchdowns to Burress in the first quarter last year. It took Manning what, 7 tries and a million injuries to beat the Patriots?
To be fair, one of those TD passes was the play where Law got injured, and the other was moments later. They took advantage of a mismatch, which is what good QBs do, but when New England had adjusted their secondary, he didn't beat them in the playoffs.
 

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