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He was AWESOME last night...70% completions, 10-10 for 181 yards against the blitz and gmae winning TD trow with :35 seconds left. I would take him over anyone other than a healthy Brady, Manning included. Behind this line, I would take him over everyone, healthy Brady included.David Yudkin said:
As several have already posted, lets look at Brady and Manning. Would you rather have Brady or Manning behind Pittsburgh's crappy offensive line, or Ben behind NE's and Indy's?To put it into perspective:Steelers' SB wins: 2005-32 sacks allowed (16th in league), & 2008- 49 sacks allowed (29th in league) In addition, Pittsburgh's O-line has NEVER ranked in the top 10 as a pass-blocking unit when Roethlisberger has been QB, and has only ranked in the top 1/2 of the league in his rookie year.Colts' SB win: 2006-15 sacks allowed (1st in league). In addition, Indy's O-line has NEVER finished out of the top 10 as a pass-blocking unit when P. Manning has been QB, and they have finished as the #1 or #2 ranked pass-blocking O-line SEVEN out of Manning's 11 seasons!Patriots' SB wins: 2001-46 sacks allowed (22 in league), 2003-32 sacks allowed (14th in league), & 2004-26 sacks allowed (5th in league). In addition, in Brady's 7 seasons (ignoring the 2000 season when he only saw action in 1 game, and the 2008 season when he was hurt in week 1), NE's O-line has finished in the top 10 as a pass-blocking unit 5/7 times!I'm not debating that defense is important, b/c it clearly is. But Tom Brady wasn't looked at as a QB stats god until last season; coincidentaly, his O-line was the 4th best pass-blocking unit. Until last year, he was looked on as a solid QB who put up decent numbers (3600-3700 yards & 23-28 TDs), but when it mattered the most, he (supposedly) came through. That is why he was looked at as a future Hall of Famer. That's what Ben does. He may not put up studly numbers, but he comes up big (usually) when it matters. In reality, Brady would have to be considered in this top tier of NFL Quarterbacks, with Ben close behind, and (IMO) Manning in the second tier. Manning has the reputation of being unable to win the big one, and that is a big part of bing a QB. It's why Montana is more highly regarded than Marino. But, Ben is very similar to Brady.Perhaps, Ben will win another SB in the next 4 years (equalling Brady's 3 in his first 9 years), and perhaps he will pass for another 15,000 yards, (giving him roughly the same amount of yards as Brady had in his first 9 years), and perhaps he will throw another 100 TDs in the next 4 years (again giving him roughly the same amount of TDs as Brady had in his first 9 years).But without looking at possible future numbers and stats, I honestly think you'd have to pick Ben above Manning AND Brady if you could pick one of the them (right now) to lead your team. Manning puts up numbers, but tends to lose big games, and Brady is coming off of a major injury. Ben has none of those question marks.FreeBaGeL said:
Your anti-Roethlisberger routine is like an acquaintance with a bad toupee. What can you say except "Stop that. You're embarrassing yourself."?Last night you gave all the credit to a defense that allowed more than 400 yards to the Cardinals. With no running game, a poor line, and a defense riddled by the Arizona passing game, Big Ben made all the throws.FreeBaGeL said:
Very nice... A Patrick Roy reference.
In addition, Pittsburgh won SB 42 despite Ben trying to lose it. Granted, he was a rookie then and he looked pretty darn good this time around. Sure he may put together a few more playoff runs in his career but lets non anoint him just yet as Brady's equal. Manning being a bit under Brady, I can see Ben getting close to that status. Not close in QB talent, but in having what it takes to win.David Yudkin said:
Not that it matters, but Roethlisberger's rookie year was the year they went 15-1 and lost to NE in the AFCC game. In the 5 years he's been in PIT, the Steelers have allowed an average of 16 ppg in the regular season and 21 ppg in the post season.
Forget to watch the rest of the playoffs that year? Ben was CLEARLY the best player on the field for either team against the Bengals, Colts, and Broncos that year, then had a terrible game in the Super Bowl. He was a HUGE part of the playoff run that year.
What a horrible, horrible statistic. Peyton gets sacked less because he gets the ball out fast, maybe the fastest in the league. Big Ben holds the ball longer than almost anyone in the league and runs around back there, sometimes making big plays, sometimes taking huge sacks.This is common knowledge.
He's not going to catch a break with some people. Last SB win, he was lights out the entire playoffs (passer rating of 123.0 in the first 3 games) and carried them to the SB, then had a lousy game once he got there, but still made enough plays to win the game. General opinion, though, even by those who claim they watched all the playoff games, is that they won the SB despite him. This time around, he's sensational in the SB (and probably should have been MVP) and it's "the defense carried him all year."Personally, I don't care what people think of him. Steeler fans know what we have. We went 26 years without a title despite having typically strong defenses because we didn't have a QB that could win games when he had to put the team on his back, whether for a game, a drive, whatever. Since Ben came along, in 5 years, we've been to 3 AFC title games, won 2 Super Bowls and Roethlisberger is #1 all-time in victories in his first 5 seasons and #2 in playoff victories in NFL history. The guy is a WINNER, plain and simple, and given Manning's age and Brady's health, I don't know if there's a QB in the NFL that I would trade him for if I were running the Steelers.
Oh hey, personal attacks are always the way to go.Who the heck cares how many yards they gave up to the Cards? Last I checked, they hadn't changed the rules of the NFL to give the team with more yards the victory.Arizona is a team that's pretty much all offense. They put up 21 points in the game. The Pittsburgh defense scored 7 on its own. They gave up a net 14 points to an Arizona team that has been pretty much all offense this year. All the Pittsburgh offense had to do was score more than a measely 14 points against a mediocre defense that had been playing slightly better this offseason. In 20 games this year, only FOUR didn't manage to put up those 14 points against the Cardinals. San Francisco, Miami, St. Louis, and Carolina. Not exactly your world class offenses either.ANY team who's defense only gives up a net 14 points to the Cardinals is probably going to win, barring an absolutely horrid performance by their offense.Trying to play this off like the Pitt defense played POORLY in this game, given what I just mentioned, shows me just how big of a leap you're making here.Is Big Ben one of the best (if not THE best) clutch QB in the league? Absolutely. But up there with Manning and Brady overall? No way, because he never gets into these clutch situations with the defenses those guys play with most years. He's great in the clutch. So is a guy like Brady. But Brady is great the whole rest of the game too. And I'm saying this as someone that LOATHES Brady.
its also funny how no one realizes that a QB can make an offensive line look bad. Look at Vick, he got sacked alot. Was it because his line was terrible or he just tried to keep the play going to long. Brady or Manning would make Pitts line look way better because they read defenses better and release the ball faster. Notice how Pitts line has let more sacks since hes been QB?? and notice how Bradys sacks have gone down the more and more he evolved in their offense. I love it when people ever hype someone like this. Big Ben played very well but isnt the reason they are there.I think you mean, SB 40.I posted earlier that he should be just behind Brady, but ahead of Manning. Look at each of their first SBs:
Brees' ridiculous stats are due to the system he plays in and the team he is on. We'll never know what would happen if Ben had 650 attempts in a season, but career-wise he is just as good as Brees per attempt. That being the case, I'll take the guy with 8 playoff wins in five years over a guy with one in eight years, thanks.
New England has been a "bend but don't break" defense for much of this decade. Sure, they were 24th in total defense in '01, but they were also 6th in points allowed. Also, in '03 and 04, the Patriots were 1st and 2nd in scoring defense. So, let's not act like the Patriots defenses have been subpar or average or anything. In fact, I would argue that their best statistical defense of this decade (last year) was not even one of their best defenses this decade, since they benefited so much by that offense. It is easier to play defense when your offense is constantly giving you huge leads.
That's all fine and dandy, but we're comparing Roethlisberger right now to Brady/Manning right now, not to the Brady of 5 years ago.Who knows, maybe 5 years from now Roethlisberger will be better than both guys with no questions asked. Right now, he's not.
In the Pats SB winning years, I don't remember them scoring anywhere near 589 points like in 07. They did score 371, 348, and 437 poiints and ranked 6th, 12th, and 4th, but they were nowhere near what they were in 07. In terms of scoring differential, they ranked 7th, 6th, and 1st.The Steelers ranked 5th, 5th, 11th, 6th, and 5th in scoring differential in Big Ben's tenure in Pittsburgh.
Interesting that they were 5th in scoring differential this year, while 20th in scoring offense.I wonder what made that discrepancy
You're right-he's not the reason, he's 1/2 of it. They wouldn't have been there if not for their defense, but they also wouldn't have been there if Ben wasn't their quarterback.His O-line is terrible, that's not a question. 3 of the 5 starters would have a hard time finding starting jobs on a lot of other teams. Brady's line and Manning's line are built for pass-blocking, and they are damn good at it. Do you think it's a coincidence that the year Brady got sacked the most, (2006) he had his worst statistical year?And for the record, Pitt has given up an average of 5.2 more sacks a year in the 5 years Ben's been the QB than in the 5 years before he got there. That equals 1 sack about every three games. I would hardly call that a lot.
Watch a Bills game this season and you'll see how a smart QB makes an Oline look better. When Edwards was in they looked good and then JP came in, ran around like an idiot, made it way harder for the line to block and made then look way way worse then they were. Steelers line wouldnt look half as bad with Brady or Manning because they release the ball when they should. Everyone knows Ben holds the ball waitin to make the big play and sometimes it works others it doesnt.You're right-he's not the reason, he's 1/2 of it. They wouldn't have been there if not for their defense, but they also wouldn't have been there if Ben wasn't their quarterback.His O-line is terrible, that's not a question. 3 of the 5 starters would have a hard time finding starting jobs on a lot of other teams. Brady's line and Manning's line are built for pass-blocking, and they are damn good at it. Do you think it's a coincidence that the year Brady got sacked the most, (2006) he had his worst statistical year?And for the record, Pitt has given up an average of 5.2 more sacks a year in the 5 years Ben's been the QB than in the 5 years before he got there. That equals 1 sack about every three games. I would hardly call that a lot.
It's a risk some QBs will take while others won't. Ben makes great plays occasionally when other QBs would have thrown it away, and he gets sacked more often for it. I'm not able to say that he should stop playing the way he does, he's been pretty darn successful with his style - and unlike some QBs, he can handle the hits.
this is my point, his line isnt that bad, him holding the ball and taking sacks make them look worse than they are...It's a risk some QBs will take while others won't. Ben makes great plays occasionally when other QBs would have thrown it away, and he gets sacked more often for it. I'm not able to say that he should stop playing the way he does, he's been pretty darn successful with his style - and unlike some QBs, he can handle the hits.
Do you really think I was acting like the Pats Ds have been subpar or average? You really think as a Pats fan I would suggest that? Cmon now. I'll tell you what's subpar and average. 17TDs and 15 picks. And those #s are right around his career averages. Let's be clear, though. Im not suggesting Tom Brady hasnt benefitted from a great defense over the years. But Im definitely suggesting a top ranked D and running game help a ton. A TON.
Ben had the 3rd most hurries, tied with Drew Brees with 54. Brees only took 13 sacks, so you have a point, but he still gets rushed a lot.this is my point, his line isnt that bad, him holding the ball and taking sacks make them look worse than they are...It's a risk some QBs will take while others won't. Ben makes great plays occasionally when other QBs would have thrown it away, and he gets sacked more often for it. I'm not able to say that he should stop playing the way he does, he's been pretty darn successful with his style - and unlike some QBs, he can handle the hits.its also funny how no one realizes that a QB can make an offensive line look bad. Look at Vick, he got sacked alot. Was it because his line was terrible or he just tried to keep the play going to long. Brady or Manning would make Pitts line look way better because they read defenses better and release the ball faster. Notice how Pitts line has let more sacks since hes been QB?? and notice how Bradys sacks have gone down the more and more he evolved in their offense. I love it when people ever hype someone like this. Big Ben played very well but isnt the reason they are there.
So, making a team one dimensional DOESN'T make it easier to play defense?
A good but not great QB with rings? That would be Troy Aikman.But back to this comparison - it stinks.There's no way you can compare the talent level that was around Bradshaw to the current Steeler team.Rothlisberger made the huge plays (remember 1st and 20?) on that last drive and other times in the game to deserve a lot of respect.And yes, Warner is great, too.
Not at all. But Brady making the Pats D better is hardly a good argument for Ben.This is like watching an Apple commercial with the Bill Gates look-alike decked out in black and gold waving his hanky.So, making a team one dimensional DOESN'T make it easier to play defense?
Very nice... A Patrick Roy reference.
Saw it on ESPN this morning, they said he was 10 for 10 for 181 yards against the blitz. I'll look for a link also...
I could have sworn AZ came wit a blitz on 1st down at the 1 and on the non-grounding call.Saw it on ESPN this morning, they said he was 10 for 10 for 181 yards against the blitz. I'll look for a link also...
Thanks Cross
They only rushed 4 on that play. Watch it again.
They rushed 4 people on that play, I wouldn't call that a blitz
Ben can't hear you, he has a Super Bowl ring in each ear... 
Ben can't hear you, he has a Super Bowl ring in each ear... 
