Ronald Reagan - War on Drugs (1 Viewer)

[pantherclub]

Reagan did more harm to America then any  other sitting US President.  He destroyed communities, destroyed families and created a poverty system that just implodes on itself with no end in sight.  By choosing the incarceration route instead of rehabilitation he locked up thousands upon thousands of non violent drug offenders creating huge holes and divides in families and communities.

And for what exactly, so he could profit off of the prison system.  Prove me wrong, you cant.  

The numbers are staggering

https://www.abhmuseum.org/war-on-drugs-or-war-on-blacks/

 

[supermike80]

Just say no!!

 

[timschochet]

Reagan did more harm to America then any  other sitting US President.  He destroyed communities, destroyed families and created a poverty system that just implodes on itself with no end in sight.  By choosing the incarceration route instead of rehabilitation he locked up thousands upon thousands of non violent drug offenders creating huge holes and divides in families and communities.

And for what exactly, so he could profit off of the prison system.  Prove me wrong, you cant.  

The numbers are staggering

https://www.abhmuseum.org/war-on-drugs-or-war-on-blacks/

How did Reagan profit off the prison system? 

 

[pantherclub]

Just say no!!

Its like an onion article

https://www.yahoo.com/news/drew-barrymore-apologizes-nancy-reagan-worst-possible-face-just-say-no-campaign-203551164.html

 

[pantherclub]

How did Reagan profit off the prison system? 

https://www.hcn.org/issues/49.8/how-the-booming-business-of-private-prisons-came-to-be

 

[timschochet]

https://www.hcn.org/issues/49.8/how-the-booming-business-of-private-prisons-came-to-be

Yes I understand how that made a lot of people very wealthy. But you wrote that Reagan did it in order to profit, which implies that he personally made money. So I’ll ask again: how did Reagan profit? 

 

[Amused to Death]

"George Bush says we are losing the War on Drugs. You know what that implies? There's a war being fought and people on drugs are winning it!" - Bill HIcks

 

[pantherclub]

Yes I understand how that made a lot of people very wealthy. But you wrote that Reagan did it in order to profit, which implies that he personally made money. So I’ll ask again: how did Reagan profit? 

Jesus Tim https://represent.us/action/private-prisons/

 

[timschochet]

One of the problems with political arguments these days is that everyone likes to assign motives without evidence. I think most aspects (not all) of the War on Drugs was wrongheaded and led to poor results. But I also believe, from everything I’ve read, that Reagan and others were motivated by belief in their cause and their proposed solutions, and not by profit or racism. Perhaps intention isn’t important to people when the results are so awful. But it’s important to me; it’s how I distinguish good people from bad. 

 

[timschochet]

Jesus Tim https://represent.us/action/private-prisons/

I don’t see anywhere a mention of Ronald Reagan being a beneficiary of the private prison system. 

 

[tymarsas]

I believe the war on drugs was a disaster. But I don't believe that it's goal was to target minorities. It was a logical extension of the "tough on crime" attitude that was so popular (and continues to be popular) among many Republicans. Those numbers are certainly shocking though.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Reagan was by far the best (IMO) and most influential (obviously true) president of my lifetime.  He was totally wrong about the war on drugs, but a) he was a product of his era and b) the war on drugs was 100% a bipartisan affair.  Same with Biden, who I voted for.

Edit: Also, to chime in in agreement with @timschochet, this was a good-faith policy disagreement, not anything nefarious.

 

[pantherclub]

I don’t see anywhere a mention of Ronald Reagan being a beneficiary of the private prison system. 

So he just went the private route because it sounded like a good idea?  Come on man.  Its politics at the highest level.  He benefited from it.  You dont make this major of a move without a little greasing of the palms.   Think about it, the first systemic private prison started under him. 

Research Corrections Corporation of America and its founders and let me know what you find out

 

[pantherclub]

Reagan was by far the best (IMO) and most influential (obviously true) president of my lifetime.  He was totally wrong about the war on drugs, but a) he was a product of his era and b) the war on drugs was 100% a bipartisan affair.  Same with Biden, who I voted for.

Edit: Also, to chime in in agreement with @timschochet, this was a good-faith policy disagreement, not anything nefarious.

I think when you dial into the specifics it was 100% nefarious.  Plus he still doesnt get a pass if not for fundamentally changing the culture in America.  The discrepancy alone in sentencing is jaw dropping

 

[timschochet]

So he just went the private route because it sounded like a good idea?  Come on man.  Its politics at the highest level.  He benefited from it.  You dont make this major of a move without a little greasing of the palms.   Think about it, the first systemic private prison started under him. 

Research Corrections Corporation of America and its founders and let me know what you find out

If you’re going to make the accusation that Reagan got his “palms greased” and personally benefited financially from the War on Drugs, it’s up to you to show evidence of that. It’s not on me to disprove it. 

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I think when you dial into the specifics it was 100% nefarious.  Plus he still doesnt get a pass if not for fundamentally changing the culture in America.  The discrepancy alone in sentencing is jaw dropping

Yeah, the sentencing thing was totally bipartisan.  Biden is at least as much to blame for that as Reagan.  (Reagan deserves blame too -- it was a bad policy decision).

 

[supermike80]

Why on earth are people shocked that politicians profit while in office?   Is this something no one knew existed?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

While we all rip on Reagan for holding 1980s-era views on drugs in the 1980s, it would be good to remind ourselves that Biden eliminated anybody who smoked weed from working at his white house.  In 2021.

 

[Harjiran]

Reagan was awful - trickle down economics and his inaction on AIDS also come to mind - but Donald Trump did far more harm to America, in my opinion.  Good topic.

 

[tymarsas]

So he just went the private route because it sounded like a good idea?  Come on man.  Its politics at the highest level.  He benefited from it.  You dont make this major of a move without a little greasing of the palms.   Think about it, the first systemic private prison started under him. 

Research Corrections Corporation of America and its founders and let me know what you find out

I think he went the private route because it was his ideology. Reagan wanted to shrink the size of the government. Private prisons was just one more way to do that.

 

[Mookie]

I thought the War on Drugs was Nixon's creation?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I think he went the private route because it was his ideology. Reagan wanted to shrink the size of the government. Private prisons was just one more way to do that.

Yes, that's correct.

On a related note, it's worth noting this was also a bipartisan thing at the time.  Airline deregulation, for example, occurred under Jimmy Carter and was championed by Ted Kennedy.  That was a different era when the two parties weren't so ludicrous.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I originally typed "when the two parties weren't so ludicrously polarized" and then decided I could tighten that sentence up a bit while also making it more accurate.

 

[Dickies]

I think Reagan did a lot of harm to this country in a number of ways.  The war on drugs has been a colossal failure, but I don't think there was anything nefarious going on with Reagan.  I think it was more a function of the thinking at the time.  I've been arguing with my parents and in-laws that we should legalize drugs for the last 10-15 years and have been called a radical and other things at the holiday dinner table even though we are all primarily Democrat voters.  Only in the past 1-2 years have they slowly starting coming around on this idea.

I did a research project in one of my upper level economics courses on the economics of the war on drugs.  It became clear to me that it's a total loser even though I went in with no strong opinion one way or the other.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I did a research project in one of my upper level economics courses on the economics of the war on drugs.  It became clear to me that it's a total loser even though I went in with no strong opinion one way or the other.

I did two-man debate for four years in high school, and I'm pretty sure "drug legalization" was a popular squirrel case every single year.  (Well technically one year the topic was prison overpopulation, so it was unambiguously topical that year).  It was popular because it's a really case hard to rebut.

 

[wikkidpissah]

i was never higher than 1981-9. guess that makes me a refugee -

 

[John Maddens Lunchbox]

Reagan did more harm to America then any  other sitting US President.  He destroyed communities, destroyed families and created a poverty system that just implodes on itself with no end in sight.  By choosing the incarceration route instead of rehabilitation he locked up thousands upon thousands of non violent drug offenders creating huge holes and divides in families and communities.

And for what exactly, so he could profit off of the prison system.  Prove me wrong, you cant.  

The numbers are staggering

https://www.abhmuseum.org/war-on-drugs-or-war-on-blacks/

Now do:

The abandonment of mental health treatment leading to a homelessness crisis, AIDS, rising income inequality, Central America, massive budget deficits and officially the most corrupt administration in US history. 

Let alone the impact of the cultural mind shift and opening the door to religious and other poisonous influences on the GOP. 

 

[Thorn]

OP lays out a pretty perfect blueprint for a conspiracy theory:

1. Make unfounded claim.

2. Highlight some related but inconclusive facts.

3. When doubted, put it on the doubters to "do their own research" or just outright dismiss them for being sheep.

 

[John Maddens Lunchbox]

OP lays out a pretty perfect blueprint for a conspiracy theory:

1. Make unfounded claim.

2. Highlight some related but inconclusive facts.

3. When doubted, put it on the doubters to "do their own research" or just outright dismiss them for being sheep.

The only statement I have with in the OP is 

And for what exactly, so he could profit off of the prison system

Maybe he made money, maybe he didnt. Reagan profiting or not is irrelevant.

The real issue is the lambs to the slaughter of a private prison system causing untold misery to thousands and maybe millions of people. For weed ffs.

 

[RCon]

As pointed out, seems like a lot of Reagan's policies were simply an outgrowth of popular thinking at the time.  We can't really fault him for that too much.  Things like the war on drugs and privatizing prisons weren't things that Reagan did in a vacuum where other politicians of both parties ranted and raved against them.  Sure, they failed spectacularly, but in a way we should thank Reagan for being decisive and implementing policies in a way where we can clearly see the end result.  We now know, conclusively, that the war on drugs is a massive failure.  We now know, conclusively, that privatizing prisons is a massive failure.  Now we have the opportunity to correct those things, rather than continue to argue about it for the next 100 years like we argue about so many other things.

 

[BladeRunner]

So he just went the private route because it sounded like a good idea?  Come on man.  Its politics at the highest level.  He benefited from it.  You dont make this major of a move without a little greasing of the palms.   Think about it, the first systemic private prison started under him. 

Research Corrections Corporation of America and its founders and let me know what you find out

You're as bad as a Michael Moore "documentary" - but two unrelated things together, roll your eyes and say "See what I mean" and hope the person listening to you infers that they are actually the same.

I mean, c'mon man.  You've provided ZERO evidence of Reagan profiting.  You might as well put up a photo of bigfoot and a photo of Reagan and said, "See what I mean?  Reagan profited off of the bigfoot conspiracy". 

 

[John Maddens Lunchbox]

You're as bad as a Michael Moore "documentary" - but two unrelated things together, roll your eyes and say "See what I mean" and make the person listening to you infer that they are actually the same.

I mean, c'mon man.  You've provided ZERO evidence of Reagan profiting.  You might as well put up a photo of bigfoot and Reagan and said, "See what I mean?  Reagan profited off of the bigfoot conspiracy". 

I agree, the Reagan profiting angle is irrelevant. Who cares?

What about the substance of the issue. The damage the War on Drugs and the private prison system has caused on society and poor communities in particular?

 

[supermike80]

Reagan was awful - trickle down economics and his inaction on AIDS also come to mind - but Donald Trump did far more harm to America, in my opinion.  Good topic.

BUT TRUMPPPPP!!!

Seriously?   Does not one single topic here NOT turn into a BUT TRUMMPPPPP thread for you guys?

 

[BladeRunner]

The only statement I have with in the OP is 

Maybe he made money, maybe he didnt. Reagan profiting or not is irrelevant.

The real issue is the lambs to the slaughter of a private prison system causing untold misery to thousands and maybe millions of people. For weed ffs.

That's actually NOT the real issue.  The REAL issue is the claim the OP made about Reagan PERSONALLY profiting off of private prisons:

"And for what exactly, so he could profit off of the prison system.  Prove me wrong, you cant.  "

 

[pantherclub]

You're as bad as a Michael Moore "documentary" - but two unrelated things together, roll your eyes and say "See what I mean" and hope the person listening to you infers that they are actually the same.

I mean, c'mon man.  You've provided ZERO evidence of Reagan profiting.  You might as well put up a photo of bigfoot and a photo of Reagan and said, "See what I mean?  Reagan profited off of the bigfoot conspiracy". 

Thats your main takeaway?  Ignore everything else but focus on the profiting?  Alright cool I will retract that.   What was I thinking in assuming a sitting president that does a mass overhaul on the prison structure turning into a privately ran business would profit?  My bad.  Oh wait its been proven these companies have lobbyists and donate to campaigns.  Lets ignore that though.  Fine with me

 

[BladeRunner]

I agree, the Reagan profiting angle is irrelevant. Who cares?

What about the substance of the issue. The damage the War on Drugs and the private prison system has caused on society and poor communities in particular?

Well, I answered that in a previous post.  The substance of the issue was the OP's claim that Reagan personally profited off of the private prison system.

 

[pantherclub]

That's actually NOT the real issue.  The REAL issue is the claim the OP made about Reagan PERSONALLY profiting off of private prisons:

"And for what exactly, so he could profit off of the prison system.  Prove me wrong, you cant.  "

Alright disregard that statement then.  Fine by me.

 

[BladeRunner]

Alright disregard that statement then.  Fine by me.

It's hard to disregard it because not only have you not retracted it in the OP, you've already stated it.  Kind of hard to "unsee" it.

So, to me, it seems like your OP is disingenuous at best - you're aren't really interested in the other, ancillary stuff you posted.  You have a clear bent here and it's framed the entire topic.  You're only looking and willing to look at the answers YOU want - not necessarily the truth.

I'm guessing that this is really about Trump, anyways.

 

[pantherclub]

Can I prove he personally profited? No how could I but you can damn well assume that privatizing prisons works just like any other thing in politics.  Money and lobbyists.

https://unleashed.bancroftschool.org/3562/opinion/mass-incarceration-nation-the-truth-behind-reagans-war-on-drugs/

In order to guarantee the continuation of Reagan’s government privatization plan, Reagan and other conservatives developed a mutually beneficial relationship with lobbyist groups. Hoping to develop laws that would continue the era of mass incarcerations created by his War on Drugs, Reagan joined forces with The American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), a conservative lobbyist group that works with private corporations to develop model legislation and propose bills based upon the needs of their client (“About ALEC”). President Reagan began his relationship with ALEC in 1981, when he assigned ALEC legislators to work on his Task Force on Federalism. These ALEC legislators came up with a comprehensive plan entitled “Reagan and the States,” that highlighted various methods of decentralizing government (“About ALEC”). From there ALEC went on to develop a Criminal Justice Task Force that worked directly with the two largest private prison companies, Corrections Corporations America and Wackenhut Corrections, to introduce laws that increased prison populations and company profits (Bender 6). Reagan developed a relationship with ALEC because the direct partnership between the private prison companies and legislators provided the private prison companies with an unfair advantage that ensured the growth and continuation of their industry. This growth ultimately benefited Reagan’s plan for privatization because it showcased the successes that the privatization of government services could achieve, which caused the public to support Reagan’s movement. By aligning himself with ALEC and providing private prison companies with an advantage in the legislative process, Reagan created a success story out of the private prison industry which helped him garner support for his privatization movement.

 

[pantherclub]

I'm guessing that this is really about Trump, anyways.

Please point me to my post where I mention him.  I'll wait. 

Plus how can you argue that the prison population didnt skyrocket under RR?  Are you chalking that up as a coinky dink?

 

[kface]

Please point me to my post where I mention him.  I'll wait. 

Plus how can you argue that the prison population didnt skyrocket under RR?  Are you chalking that up as a coinky dink?

No he is doing the only thing he knows how to do and trolling...

 

[BladeRunner]

No he is doing the only thing he knows how to do and trolling...

Which is funny, because your post above is a clear example of trolling. 

Anyways, why don't you go whine to the FBG Moderator.  Maybe he'll listen to you.  

Otherwise, keep your gaslighting and incorrect and biased assumptions to yourself about me.  TIA!

 

[pantherclub]

Which is funny, because your post above is a clear example of trolling. 

Anyways, why don't you go whine to the FBG Moderator.  Maybe he'll listen to you.  

Otherwise, keep your gaslighting and clearly biased assumptions to yourself about me.  TIA!

now answer my post

 

[BladeRunner]

Please point me to my post where I mention him.  I'll wait. 

Plus how can you argue that the prison population didnt skyrocket under RR?  Are you chalking that up as a coinky dink?

Covid deaths and infenctions have skyrocketed under Biden.  Correlation?

I did get a laugh out of "coinky dink", though.  I have never heard of that. 

I don't think I was arguing that the prison population did or didn't increase under Reagan.  I was solely focused on your assertion that Reagan personally profited off of that.

 

[pantherclub]

Covid deaths and infenctions have skyrocketed under Biden.  Correlation?

I did get a laugh out of "coinky dink", though.  I have never heard of that. 

I don't think I was arguing that the prison population did or didn't increase under Reagan.  I was solely focused on your assertion that Reagan personally profited off of that.

Do politicians profit off of lobbyists?

Also please direct me to my post where I mentioned a certain former president.  I'll wait.

 

[BladeRunner]

Do politicians profit off of lobbyists?

Also please direct me to my post where I mentioned a certain former president.  I'll wait.

Oh, absolutely.  You'll get no disagreement from me.  All one has to do is look at Bernie, Warren, Biden and Obama to see how one profits.  They go in poor and come out mega-rich.  But, that in and of itself isn't evidence that Reagan was personally profiting of of the prisons - which was my issue (and Tim's for that matter).

Also, you didn't directly mention Trump.  I said "I'm GUESSING that this is really about Trump, anyways.".  "GUESSING" being the operative word.

 

[pantherclub]

Oh, absolutely.  You'll get no disagreement from me.  All one has to do is look at Bernie, Warren, Biden and Obama to see how one profits.  They go in poor and come out mega-rich.

Also, you didn't directly mention Trump.  I said "I'm GUESSING that this is really about Trump, anyways.".  "GUESSING" being the operative word.

How in the holy hell could this possibly be about trump?

 

[BladeRunner]

How in the holy hell could this possibly be about trump?

I have no idea, but that's how it always turns out.  I mean, we were only 19 posts in before a poster brought up Trump - that's usually how it starts. 

 

[John Maddens Lunchbox]

Please point me to my post where I mention him.  I'll wait. 

Plus how can you argue that the prison population didnt skyrocket under RR?  Are you chalking that up as a coinky dink?

You missed the meeting about certain posters who just lob grenades. There is NO interest in substantative discussion. Make their point over and over again for lolz and no interest in the main issue

In future I would recommend avoiding incendiary comments in an OP. I know your point, but it counters a legitimate discussion. Its a great second or third rebuttal down the line. Discussing Reagan and his failures needs to be fact, fact and fact. There are plenty of them. 

 

[rockaction]

Discussing Reagan and his failures needs to be fact, fact and fact. There are plenty of them. 

Any "failure" designation is opinion, opinion, or opinion. Facts are different than value judgments. You'd need a whole bunch of premises before you hit "failure" as a "fact." 

The "fact" that you don't know that seems like you're both headstrong and footloose.