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Roy Williams or Andre Johnson (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter cboysen
- Start date
5Rings
Lurker
I agree with these points, but I'll play and bite on the original posters question.I'd take Andre > Roy just because the Texans QB position is >>> than the mess in Detroit. Plus Roy theoretically has more challenges for targets from a far superior supporting cast at WR2-WR3 than does Andre.
I'll bite too.I say R. Williams >>> A. Johnson. Roy has had 8 TD's each year with the mess of the quarterback situation. But I will add not by much. It really depends on the coaching changes and what they will do at quarterback and their respective offensive strategies.
Dave Baker
Damn glad to meet you
I like Roy Williams, but no way is he way more talented. Andre Johnson has talent coming out of his pores. If there is a talent differential, it is minor. Both are studs, big time.
Pots
Footballguy
Never liked Andre Johnson, always stayed away from him, turned out I was smarter than a lot of people who got burnt by him. That said, I see Roy Williams as freakishly talented (moreso than Andre by far) and can be a spot-starter or WR3 fantasy-wise no matter who is at the helm, and could bump up to a WR2 or WR1 if they get someone decent. Andre I see as a marginal #2 at best if they get a solid passing game working.
FFFIEND
Footballguy
I got suckered into Williams this year. I will be back on the band wagon next year if he is available late enough. Other than that, someone else can have him.I don't like Johnson either, but I would rather have Williams. I know that a new RB threat and should help things, but I would still rather have Williams, who actually did some amage late in the season.
There is a lot of Roy Williams love in this thread. Compare the 1st 2 years and other than TDs, Roy has not produced anywhere near the numbers of Andre. Roy has 99 for 1504 and 16TDs, Andre had 153 for 2118 and 10 TDs.TDs aren't always real consistent and since Roy had 3 of the 8 in one game, if he isn't in you lineup every week, you will miss his big game. In 4 of the other 5 games he had a TD in 2005, he had 3 or 4 catches and between 27 and 55 yards, which isn't very good. Even in 2004, Roy had three 2 TD games and only 2 TDs the rest of the year.
It isn't like Roy has really had any more competition for receptions than Andre has had either. Gaffney has outproduced all other Lions receivers the past 2 years. Add in DD and Andre has had a lot more competition than Roy.
AJ had a horrible 2005 all because of our friend David Carr and because I think he was hurt at the beginning of the year. After he missed 3 games, he then had a nice stretch of 8 games in which he had 52 receptions, 609 yards and 2 TDs.
I think AJ just needs a little more team offense to move into stud territory, whereas Roy even before the draft had work ethics questions so even an improved Detroit offense may not move him into stud territory.
Mathematics
Footballguy
There is a lot of Roy Williams love in this thread. Compare the 1st 2 years and other than TDs, Roy has not produced anywhere near the numbers of Andre. Roy has 99 for 1504 and 16TDs, Andre had 153 for 2118 and 10 TDs.
TDs aren't always real consistent and since Roy had 3 of the 8 in one game, if he isn't in you lineup every week, you will miss his big game. In 4 of the other 5 games he had a TD in 2005, he had 3 or 4 catches and between 27 and 55 yards, which isn't very good. Even in 2004, Roy had three 2 TD games and only 2 TDs the rest of the year.
It isn't like Roy has really had any more competition for receptions than Andre has had either. Gaffney has outproduced all other Lions receivers the past 2 years. Add in DD and Andre has had a lot more competition than Roy.
AJ had a horrible 2005 all because of our friend David Carr and because I think he was hurt at the beginning of the year. After he missed 3 games, he then had a nice stretch of 8 games in which he had 52 receptions, 609 yards and 2 TDs.
I think AJ just needs a little more team offense to move into stud territory, whereas Roy even before the draft had work ethics questions so even an improved Detroit offense may not move him into stud territory.
Your stats are misleading. In the first two years, Roy has only played in 24 games due to injury. AJ played in every game his first two years so it's not fair to compare the numbers there. So Roy has missed 8 games total (in two years) and has still scored more touchdowns than AJ. Both have a lot of talent, but it's hard to know which one is in a better situation until we know coaches, qb, other wide receivers on their teams, etc.
TDs aren't always real consistent and since Roy had 3 of the 8 in one game, if he isn't in you lineup every week, you will miss his big game. In 4 of the other 5 games he had a TD in 2005, he had 3 or 4 catches and between 27 and 55 yards, which isn't very good. Even in 2004, Roy had three 2 TD games and only 2 TDs the rest of the year.
It isn't like Roy has really had any more competition for receptions than Andre has had either. Gaffney has outproduced all other Lions receivers the past 2 years. Add in DD and Andre has had a lot more competition than Roy.
AJ had a horrible 2005 all because of our friend David Carr and because I think he was hurt at the beginning of the year. After he missed 3 games, he then had a nice stretch of 8 games in which he had 52 receptions, 609 yards and 2 TDs.
I think AJ just needs a little more team offense to move into stud territory, whereas Roy even before the draft had work ethics questions so even an improved Detroit offense may not move him into stud territory.
Your stats are misleading. In the first two years, Roy has only played in 24 games due to injury. AJ played in every game his first two years so it's not fair to compare the numbers there. So Roy has missed 8 games total (in two years) and has still scored more touchdowns than AJ. Both have a lot of talent, but it's hard to know which one is in a better situation until we know coaches, qb, other wide receivers on their teams, etc.
We're probably splitting hairs here, but I think AJ has the more complete package - great size and spead. Roy has very good size and speed, but not up to AJ's level. However, Roy makes ridiculous circus catches for the highlight real.It really depends on which offensive unit can gel and start to produce as a whole. That will create more production and scoring for the top WR.
There is a lot of Roy Williams love in this thread. Compare the 1st 2 years and other than TDs, Roy has not produced anywhere near the numbers of Andre. Roy has 99 for 1504 and 16TDs, Andre had 153 for 2118 and 10 TDs.
TDs aren't always real consistent and since Roy had 3 of the 8 in one game, if he isn't in you lineup every week, you will miss his big game. In 4 of the other 5 games he had a TD in 2005, he had 3 or 4 catches and between 27 and 55 yards, which isn't very good. Even in 2004, Roy had three 2 TD games and only 2 TDs the rest of the year.
It isn't like Roy has really had any more competition for receptions than Andre has had either. Gaffney has outproduced all other Lions receivers the past 2 years. Add in DD and Andre has had a lot more competition than Roy.
AJ had a horrible 2005 all because of our friend David Carr and because I think he was hurt at the beginning of the year. After he missed 3 games, he then had a nice stretch of 8 games in which he had 52 receptions, 609 yards and 2 TDs.
I think AJ just needs a little more team offense to move into stud territory, whereas Roy even before the draft had work ethics questions so even an improved Detroit offense may not move him into stud territory.
Your stats are misleading. In the first two years, Roy has only played in 24 games due to injury. AJ played in every game his first two years so it's not fair to compare the numbers there. So Roy has missed 8 games total (in two years) and has still scored more touchdowns than AJ. Both have a lot of talent, but it's hard to know which one is in a better situation until we know coaches, qb, other wide receivers on their teams, etc.
It isn't that misleading. According to Sportsline Roy has played in 27 games, missing only 5. Anyway, I don't think TDs are as good for indicating future success. For example, I think if AJ plays 16 games in 2006, he is a lock for 80+ catches and 1100+ yards. I don't think the same can be said for Roy. Throw in a new offense and I would say that AJ has a chance to improve his TDs. I would say that Roy's TD numbers have a better chance of declining if he doesn't get more than 45 or 54 catches in 2006. I hope that makes sense.
People keep talking talent saying Roy has way more talent even though AJ was the #3 overall pick in 2003. Roy has done nothing in the NFL to show that he is a stud yet. All I remember about Roy was his work ethics being questioned and based on his play so far and the utter disarray of the Detroit clubhouse, it wouldn't surprise me if Roy doesn't live up to his potential.
TDs aren't always real consistent and since Roy had 3 of the 8 in one game, if he isn't in you lineup every week, you will miss his big game. In 4 of the other 5 games he had a TD in 2005, he had 3 or 4 catches and between 27 and 55 yards, which isn't very good. Even in 2004, Roy had three 2 TD games and only 2 TDs the rest of the year.
It isn't like Roy has really had any more competition for receptions than Andre has had either. Gaffney has outproduced all other Lions receivers the past 2 years. Add in DD and Andre has had a lot more competition than Roy.
AJ had a horrible 2005 all because of our friend David Carr and because I think he was hurt at the beginning of the year. After he missed 3 games, he then had a nice stretch of 8 games in which he had 52 receptions, 609 yards and 2 TDs.
I think AJ just needs a little more team offense to move into stud territory, whereas Roy even before the draft had work ethics questions so even an improved Detroit offense may not move him into stud territory.
Your stats are misleading. In the first two years, Roy has only played in 24 games due to injury. AJ played in every game his first two years so it's not fair to compare the numbers there. So Roy has missed 8 games total (in two years) and has still scored more touchdowns than AJ. Both have a lot of talent, but it's hard to know which one is in a better situation until we know coaches, qb, other wide receivers on their teams, etc.
It isn't that misleading. According to Sportsline Roy has played in 27 games, missing only 5. Anyway, I don't think TDs are as good for indicating future success. For example, I think if AJ plays 16 games in 2006, he is a lock for 80+ catches and 1100+ yards. I don't think the same can be said for Roy. Throw in a new offense and I would say that AJ has a chance to improve his TDs. I would say that Roy's TD numbers have a better chance of declining if he doesn't get more than 45 or 54 catches in 2006. I hope that makes sense.
People keep talking talent saying Roy has way more talent even though AJ was the #3 overall pick in 2003. Roy has done nothing in the NFL to show that he is a stud yet. All I remember about Roy was his work ethics being questioned and based on his play so far and the utter disarray of the Detroit clubhouse, it wouldn't surprise me if Roy doesn't live up to his potential.
Finatic
Footballguy
I think the change from a defensive minded coach to an offensive minded coach bodes well for AJ going forward.Kubiak is a pretty smart offensive guy and it won't take him long to realize that AJ is a gamebreaker.Hopefully he will do a better job of devising ways to get him the ball.
Franknbeans
Footballguy
Michael Clayton
David Yudkin
Footballguy
Williams now has Martz as an offensive coordinator. That alone should put him ahead of Johnson IMO.
FUBAR
Footballguy
I'm back on the train with both of these guys, but I'll take "Martz's #1 WR for $1,000"
Houston's OL looks improved, better coach I think, Moulds as a #2 is great for any WR, but will he take too many of AJ's looks?
Roy - Martz, #1 WR, Kitna is better than Harrington, look what he did with Chad Johnson, and Roy is more talented.
I think both will have some huge games and cause some anger management issues for their owners, but overall I expect Roy to take his place among the elite this year.
Houston's OL looks improved, better coach I think, Moulds as a #2 is great for any WR, but will he take too many of AJ's looks?
Roy - Martz, #1 WR, Kitna is better than Harrington, look what he did with Chad Johnson, and Roy is more talented.
I think both will have some huge games and cause some anger management issues for their owners, but overall I expect Roy to take his place among the elite this year.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
I'm a Roy owner, but I'm not going to go out and say that he's more talented than CJ. That's just crazy talk!?!?!
Jason Wood
Zoo York
I think Gary Kubiak can fashion a productive passing attack, I KNOW Mike Martz can do so with relatively interchangeable pieces. Early reports are hard to trust, but clearly Roy Williams is getting all the praise right now in Detroit (oh, and Eddie Drummond) whereas we haven't had the chance to see/hear much from the Texans one way or another.
I think AJ is quite capable of being a consistent 1,000+ yard receiver in the league, but if Roy's healthy I have a hard time seeing him fall short of that mark and then some in 2006.
Additionally...slight edge to Roy because a) his WR2 won't be as productive and b) his workhorse back isn't going to vulture 50-60 passes (as Dom Davis will).
I think AJ is quite capable of being a consistent 1,000+ yard receiver in the league, but if Roy's healthy I have a hard time seeing him fall short of that mark and then some in 2006.
Additionally...slight edge to Roy because a) his WR2 won't be as productive and b) his workhorse back isn't going to vulture 50-60 passes (as Dom Davis will).
I don't understand this. Kubiak has been pretty successful in Denver and has a pretty long track record with a successful offense.While Denver's offense wasn't the greatest show on earth like the Rams were, I definitely don't agree with your "relatively interchangeable pieces." I think Holt and Faulk are probably HOF locks and there is no one on the Lions roster that I would even give a shot at the HOF right now.
Faulk, Holt and Bruce >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>KJ, Roy and ????
The 2006 Detroit Lions will not be comparable to the 1999 Rams.
Edit to Add: Forgot to comment on your RB vulture, but in 2005 Jackson/Faulk/Other RB had a combined 87 receptions. They had 69 in 2004, 68 in 2003, 110 in 2002 and 100 in 2001. While KJ is not the receiving threat that DD is, Martz has quite a history of throwing to his RBs.
By the way, I am mainly just arguing to try and get into a sig/free subscription bet that I tried before and just saw a potential door open.
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David Yudkin
Footballguy
What we don't know and will have to debate is how the Lions players will do AFTER Martz has them for awhile.Martz took completely off the radar QBs (Green, Warner, and Bulger) and made them elite fantasy QB. IIRC, he was the WR coach when Isaac Bruce went from an unknown to having the second highest yardage total ever for a WR (up from 21-272-3 to 119-1781-13 from one year to the next). He put Eddie Kennison on the map as a rookie. Sure, Holt has been an uber stud, but who knows how he would have done elsewhere. He got Amp Lee 60+ receptions and 800+ receiving yards at RB.
The only really proven player that Martz started with was Faulk (who obviously was already a stud with the Colts). Beyond that Martz started with the same type of players as any other team does.
I hear ya, kind of a chicken and the egg thing with Holt, but he was the #6 overall draft pick in 1999 right behind McNabb, Edge and Ricky Williams, so he obviously had a lot of potential. I have had Holt on my teams a few times (and watched him quite a bit) and I think he is a very, very talented receiver and not just a product of the system.I guess I understand a WR coach helping Bruce become a better WR. I don't know if you can attribute his 1995 stats to anyone other than the OC/HC since they called the plays and in order to get 119 receptions (30 more than any other year), he had to have had close to 200 targets.
Unfortunately, the stats page doesn't have targets before 2002, but based on the fact that he had 131 and 140 targets in years he had 79 and 89 receptions, a quick calculation puts an estimate for 1995 targets at 192. That is pretty much insane even if it is just an estimate. Any quality receiver in the league puts up ridiculous numbers with ridiculous targets.
Anyway, based on Faulk and Bruce's decline lately and the Rams scoring drop (363 and 319 the last 2 years compared to 450-500+ in the Super Bowl years), it seems to me that the greatest show on earth was a combination of system and having 3 top players in Faulk, Bruce and Holt in their primes. I just wouldn't put the Lions anywhere near the talent level of those guys, so I think Martz may improve the offense some, but they aren't going to be what the Rams were.
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I like Andre enough to have just drafted him in the fourth round but if Roy Williams can remain healthy I think he will easily top Andre Johnson.
The bad news is Roy never seems to be able to be healthy. You can't just look at the games he has missed either. He played in a lot of games were he was far from 100%. Also, his injury history goes back to Texas were he seemed to constantly have a hammy or groin problem.
So I think a healthy Roy outperforms Andre but the potential for injury and missed time is great.
The bad news is Roy never seems to be able to be healthy. You can't just look at the games he has missed either. He played in a lot of games were he was far from 100%. Also, his injury history goes back to Texas were he seemed to constantly have a hammy or groin problem.
So I think a healthy Roy outperforms Andre but the potential for injury and missed time is great.
salmonstud
Footballguy
Keep his head on straight? I think you are confusing Roy W with C-Rogers. Roy Williams has been nothing but effective when healthy despite having Joey "erratica" as his QB and a leader on the team. Williams has had no off the field problems. Injuries are the only thing that have hampered his production.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
Hey stbugs, I should've clarified my "relatively interchangeable parts" comment to emphasize QB. There's no question Martz had a boatload of elite parts at his disposal, but none of his QBs were heralded until he got them into his system. In fact, most weren't viewed as career backups much less Pro Bowlers. As to the Kubiak vs. Martz comment...let me clarifyI don't understand this. Kubiak has been pretty successful in Denver and has a pretty long track record with a successful offense.While Denver's offense wasn't the greatest show on earth like the Rams were, I definitely don't agree with your "relatively interchangeable pieces." I think Holt and Faulk are probably HOF locks and there is no one on the Lions roster that I would even give a shot at the HOF right now.
Faulk, Holt and Bruce >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>KJ, Roy and ????
The 2006 Detroit Lions will not be comparable to the 1999 Rams.
Edit to Add: Forgot to comment on your RB vulture, but in 2005 Jackson/Faulk/Other RB had a combined 87 receptions. They had 69 in 2004, 68 in 2003, 110 in 2002 and 100 in 2001. While KJ is not the receiving threat that DD is, Martz has quite a history of throwing to his RBs.
By the way, I am mainly just arguing to try and get into a sig/free subscription bet that I tried before and just saw a potential door open.
I loved the Kubiak hiring and think he'll be HIGHLY effective (witness my Spotlight of David Carr). But the reason I said I think Kubiak will be successful whereas I know Martz can be relates to their coaching history. Kubes has never been a head man, and Shanahan called the plays for most of Kubiak's tenure. We KNOW Martz can call plays for a potent offense, we can only suppose Kubiak is equipped to do so (until he proves himself one way or another).
A fair point vis-a-vis Martz throwing to his backs, but I also know that Martz is smart enough to play to his personnel's strengths. Kevin Jones isn't the receiver Domanick Davis is...and yet if we're to believe Martz, KJ is going to get every opportunity to be a 3-down back. For that reason, and the lack of an established WR2, I give Roy Williams a slight edge in opportunity (but not necessarily ability).
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
No matter how you feel about Roy, he has an oustanding opportunity to succeed this season statistically. Kitna is no Manning, but he is an NFL QB who capable of being average. Average in a Martz offense will still produce yards. Do you think Ryan Fitzpatrick is a better NFL QB than Kitna? Fitzpatrick was able to throw for 300+ yards in his first showing. Kitna will be able to put up 220-260 consitantly in this offense (he will also have some 300+ games). Roy will benefit and have a top 10 season IF he stays healthy.
Andre is a nice physical specimen. Size, speed, and decent hands. I am not as familiar with Kubiaks offense as I am Martz. I know about the running game Denver had. Ashley Lelie was the deep threat, but they rarely through to him (now that may be more on Ashley than the offense). I think Andre becomes more consistant with this new offense and the addition of Moulds. But like Roy, Andre needs to stay healthy in order to produce. I hope he gets his chances this year, but I do not see the upside in him that I do with Roy.
I hope to see both of them reach their full potential someday. They are two of my favorite players (dynasty owner).
Andre is a nice physical specimen. Size, speed, and decent hands. I am not as familiar with Kubiaks offense as I am Martz. I know about the running game Denver had. Ashley Lelie was the deep threat, but they rarely through to him (now that may be more on Ashley than the offense). I think Andre becomes more consistant with this new offense and the addition of Moulds. But like Roy, Andre needs to stay healthy in order to produce. I hope he gets his chances this year, but I do not see the upside in him that I do with Roy.
I hope to see both of them reach their full potential someday. They are two of my favorite players (dynasty owner).
Yes and No.First off, Andre had 1142 yards in 2004 (same year that DD was the #5 RB) and in the last 9 games of 2005 (when he was healthy), he was on pace for 1088 yards. That includes a 3 target Week 17 against SF when it was clear that Houston tried to lose. AJ was averaging 11 targets a game in Week 9-16. For those 8 games his pace was 1218 yards.
Also, AJ had 976 yards as a rookie, which aside from Randy Moss, Boldin, Clayton and Glenn, is actually a very good total. I posted it in another thread, but AJ's first 2 years yardage wise were better than almost every WR ranked in the top 25 in 2005 except Moss, Boldin and Glenn. I think Boldin is making people forget how bad WRs rookie seasons usually are and thus people don't realize how good AJ's first two seasons were historically because of his injury last year.
On to Roy Williams. I say no and agree with you that he has a long way to go. Just because Martz is there doesn't mean that Williams may even sniff 1500 yards which happens to be almost double the 817 yards in 14 games in 2003, which is his career best. He only had 687 yards in 2005 in 13 games.
Maybe Williams will bust out, but I am not sold on him yet. If he was someone that I had heard was a hard worker and putting in the time, then I would bet on him, but based on what I read about all of the Detroit WRs, including Williams, I am not going to bet on him.
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I can agree on Martz's QBs. Other than Green in Washington, none were heralded out of college or had had any solid NFL seasons prior to St. Louis.I definitely misunderstood your interchangeable parts, especially after David's quote.Hey stbugs, I should've clarified my "relatively interchangeable parts" comment to emphasize QB. There's no question Martz had a boatload of elite parts at his disposal, but none of his QBs were heralded until he got them into his system. In fact, most weren't viewed as career backups much less Pro Bowlers. As to the Kubiak vs. Martz comment...let me clarifyI don't understand this. Kubiak has been pretty successful in Denver and has a pretty long track record with a successful offense.While Denver's offense wasn't the greatest show on earth like the Rams were, I definitely don't agree with your "relatively interchangeable pieces." I think Holt and Faulk are probably HOF locks and there is no one on the Lions roster that I would even give a shot at the HOF right now.
Faulk, Holt and Bruce >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>KJ, Roy and ????
The 2006 Detroit Lions will not be comparable to the 1999 Rams.
Edit to Add: Forgot to comment on your RB vulture, but in 2005 Jackson/Faulk/Other RB had a combined 87 receptions. They had 69 in 2004, 68 in 2003, 110 in 2002 and 100 in 2001. While KJ is not the receiving threat that DD is, Martz has quite a history of throwing to his RBs.
By the way, I am mainly just arguing to try and get into a sig/free subscription bet that I tried before and just saw a potential door open.
I loved the Kubiak hiring and think he'll be HIGHLY effective (witness my Spotlight of David Carr). But the reason I said I think Kubiak will be successful whereas I know Martz can be relates to their coaching history. Kubes has never been a head man, and Shanahan called the plays for most of Kubiak's tenure. We KNOW Martz can call plays for a potent offense, we can only suppose Kubiak is equipped to do so (until he proves himself one way or another).
A fair point vis-a-vis Martz throwing to his backs, but I also know that Martz is smart enough to play to his personnel's strengths. Kevin Jones isn't the receiver Domanick Davis is...and yet if we're to believe Martz, KJ is going to get every opportunity to be a 3-down back. For that reason, and the lack of an established WR2, I give Roy Williams a slight edge in opportunity (but not necessarily ability).
Having had Holt on my team quite a few years and watching many of his games, I think he would be a stud anywhere except Detroit.
Anyway, I guess I am very skeptical because although Warner was a nobody, I think Martz got the benefit of having Faulk, Bruce and Holt in their primes. 2002 was the start of the decline of Faulk coincidentally, the start of the decline of the Rams offense. They were the #1 scoring offense in 1999 (the first year of Faulk), 2000 and 2001. They have been #23, #3, #19 and #11 since. Still good, but not as good.Martz may prove me wrong, but I see a lot of similarities in Brian Billick who didn't have the same weapons in Baltimore that he had in Minny and hasn't had the offensive success that he had in Minny, although I think the Ravens will have a good 2006.
