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RUMOR: Chris Chambers might be gone. (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter eoMMan
- Start date
JoeSteeler
Footballguy
I doubt it. He was just paid an $8 million roster bonus this month.
http://dolphins.aolsportsblog.com/2007/03/...-no-2-receiver/
http://dolphins.aolsportsblog.com/2007/03/...-no-2-receiver/
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Liquid Tension
Footballguy
That article didn't mention 8 mil for Chambers?I also disagree with the premise of that article as Booker is a very solid #2 WR. He is not TJ or Wayne, but he is in that next group of #2 WR's. No chance Engram would start for the Dolphins.
sho nuff
Footballguy
If its not that...there will be teams lined up to get this guy.
Huh?
Otis
Footballguy
Booker is a very good WR. People forget that he had 100 catches in a season as a WR1 with poor QBing.
TBLCommish
Footballguy
This thread is meaningless and lacks all credibility without a source
SSOG
Moderator
Haha, I was just thinking that Dolphin fans would be lining up to say goodbye to this chump.Chris Chambers = Most Overrated WR in the NFL.
Liquid Tension
Footballguy
my bad, I must have missed that
Liquid Tension
Footballguy
This doesn't make sense; If the Dolphin fans want to get rid of him, then how is he overrated?Chambers makes some highlight reel catches and haws glue for hands, while at teh same time drops easy ones that he let's his body catch. He could use a good OL and consistent QB and offense to really see where he is at, but he is a below average #1 receiver IMO
Which is why it's a RUMOR.
Billy Ball Thorton
Footballguy
I HARDLY THINK THIS IS A BOARD OF FACTS. I DIDN'T SEE ANYWHERE IT WAS SAID TO BE A FACT EITHER.YOUR REPLY IS
PatsWillWin
Footballguy
I don't get why someone with a "source" is asking us, those without a source, if we've heard anything about what the source told him.
And I also echo the sentiment that Chris Chambers is extremely overrated.
And I also echo the sentiment that Chris Chambers is extremely overrated.
fixed
PahtyTom
Footballguy
Talent wise, Chambers is top 10 at his position. He's never had a good o-line, QB, or system in place for him and he's still put up some really good seasons. If you put him on a team like the Packers with a good gunslinger, he'd put up MONSTER numbers.
twistd
Footballguy
I still remember that when the Dolphins took Chambers it was after the Bears took David Terrell. As a matter of fact I believe Chambers dropped to the second. Terrell was a huge bust. As a Bears fan I'd love to see chambers in a Bear uniform.
twistd
Footballguy
I agree completely. If you put him in a decent system he will be a monster. Who have his QBs been? Fiedler, Culpepper, Harrington, and who else? Hardly a Hall of Fame group. Put him on the Eagles, or the Titans, or the Saints, and see what kind of numbers he puts up. I think he is definitely a top 10 receiver then.
SSOG
Moderator
See the later replies in this thread about how Chambers is a top-10 WR? That's how he's overrated.I'll go a little bit beyond your "below average #1 receiver" and call Chambers possibly the worst #1 WR in the entire NFL. Sure, he's huge, fast, and can jump really high. Michael Bennett can run really, really fast, too- does that make him a good NFL RB?
No, no, he definitely wouldn't have been.It's funny that people always play the QB card with Chris Chambers. "Oh, his QBs suck, woe is him, give him a real QB and he'd be a great WR!". Thing is, great WRs manage to not suck no matter WHO their QB is. Anquan Boldin put up monster numbers with Jeff Blake (out of football) and Josh McCown (he's currently in Detroit... PLAYING WIDE RECEIVER). Think about that- Anquan Boldin had a QB who was so bad that he's now a WIDE RECEIVER, and Boldin still put up phenominal numbers and a great catch%. Andre Johnson put up great numbers with David Carr (getting run out of Houston on a rail), Torry Holt was still a stud when he was getting the ball from Jamie Martin and Ryan Fitzpatrick, and Lee Evans has been all-world for three straight years now catching the ball from Drew Bledsoe (currently out of football), Kelly Holcomb (currently out of football), and J.P. Losman.I don't know if you understand just how bad Chris Chambers has been. He hasn't had a catch% north of 50 since his second year in the league. Last year he caught 39% of the balls thrown his way. THIRTY NINE PERCENT. He averaged 4.4 yards per target. FOUR POINT FOUR. These numbers are HISTORICALLY bad. Chris Chambers last year had the worst season any WR has had in the past decade.Now, you can blame that on Joey Harrington if you really want, but here is a brief list of WRs who have played with Joey Harrington and not had one of the worst seasons in the history of professional football: Wes Welker, Marty Booker, Roy Williams, Az Hakim. Heck, last year, Charles Rogers caught 45% of the balls thrown his way and averaged 6.35 yards per target. In 2003, Rogers caught 42% of the balls thrown his way and averaged 4.67 yards per target. Do you know what this means? The biggest WR bust in the history of the NFL played with the same quarterback as Chris Chambers on a worse team as a rookie, and actually had a better season than Chris Chambers had last year.In case anyone cares how the rest of Miami's WRs did with these horrible QBs... last year, Marty Booker caught 61% of the balls thrown his way and averaged 8.3 yards per target, while Welker caught 67% of the balls thrown his way and averaged 6.9 yards per target. Chris Chambers, once again, caught 39% and averaged 4.4 yards per target.Chris Chambers isn't a top-10 WR. Chris Chambers isn't a top-30 WR. In fact, if I sat down and thought about it long enough, I question whether Chambers would even be a top-50 WR.
Fantasy Football Junkie
Footballguy
This is a ploy to motivate........
Sorry guys I had to do it.
Sorry guys I had to do it.
Lord of the Rings
Footballguy
Don't have the numbers in front of me, but from what I could tell, part of Chambers problem might possibly, and I stress possibly, be bad coaching. He seems to do better when he lines up in the slot, but for some reason Wanny and Saban refused to put him there on a regular basis. In fact, if I recall, his monster year a couple years ago was when he was moved primarily to the slot. Then they decided not go back to that the following year. Not sure what Cam has in mind, but I'd like to see this move come to fruition on a more regular basis before I'm convinced that Chambers is a bust.
PahtyTom
Footballguy
SSOG, I stopped reading your last post when you said Chris Chambers was "huge. If you're going to completely rip the guy, at least get your facts straight.
You calling him "huge" actually illustrates the point of how talented he is. He is not even 6 feet tall, and yet he plays "huge". Chambers is a top 10 talent regardless of what you post about Joey Harrington. It's really worthless info until/unless you see someone else come into Miami and produce better numbers under the same conditions that Chambers has been playing under his whole career. I doubt that there's more than a handful of wideouts that could do it.
You calling him "huge" actually illustrates the point of how talented he is. He is not even 6 feet tall, and yet he plays "huge". Chambers is a top 10 talent regardless of what you post about Joey Harrington. It's really worthless info until/unless you see someone else come into Miami and produce better numbers under the same conditions that Chambers has been playing under his whole career. I doubt that there's more than a handful of wideouts that could do it.
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Liquid Tension
Footballguy
SSOG, you have a SABR metric thought process that doesn't work nearly as well as it does in baseball. i should know as I have been on forums with Bill James studying the statistical nuances of baseball. Football is a team sport and baseball is an individual sport and because of this, you MUST be a scout to be truly effective. yes, you can study the stats as well and they have merit but you must use your eyes.Chambers is much better than you are stating and you might even know that as well? But, you stated some things that are just simply wrong. first Chambers is NOT big (under 6) and not fast (average speed at best). he does have very long arms which makes him play taller.Also, you had to see how bad the throws and timing were to Chambers on the outside. The QB play mattered, but also Chambers was banged up all year with nagging injuries.I am not making excuses because I still think he is a below average #1 receiver who had a really bad year last year. But if I am projecting, he is a top 20 WR in terms of points next year (barring injury). Your "not top 50" is just hyperbole as Chambers was top 10 one year ago.
massraider
Footballguy
I own Cris Chambers in two dynasty leagues, and watch the Fins a lot, and him specifically.
I doubt there was a receiver in the league that had more uncatchable balls thrown to him last year. Those stats are nice, and it'd make me shy away from Chambers, but not because he sucks. But because I can't trust the Fins' QB to throw the ball further than 10 yards with any accuracy. Chambers was the biggest victim of the Fins QB woes, and Welker the biggest benificiary.
If they have the same QB performance next year, then whoever is running those underneath routes will be a great sleeper (The next Wes Welker).
I doubt there was a receiver in the league that had more uncatchable balls thrown to him last year. Those stats are nice, and it'd make me shy away from Chambers, but not because he sucks. But because I can't trust the Fins' QB to throw the ball further than 10 yards with any accuracy. Chambers was the biggest victim of the Fins QB woes, and Welker the biggest benificiary.
If they have the same QB performance next year, then whoever is running those underneath routes will be a great sleeper (The next Wes Welker).
SSOG
Moderator
Chambers monster season came in a year when he led the league in targets. I think that had more to do with his totals than the fact that he played in the slot.Frodo said:
When I call Chris Chambers "huge", I am mostly referring to muscle mass and bulk. Chris Chambers is a big, strong, bulky WR. Randy Moss might be half a foot taller than Chambers, but I would never call Randy Moss "huge" because he doesn't have the bulk. Other examples of WRs I would refer to as "huge" would be David Boston and Terrell Owens. In fact, Chambers is bulkier than Owens, even- he's listed as 7 pounds lighter, but he's also 4 inches shorter. He's also the same listed weight as Boston, but three inches shorter there, too.You doubt there's more than a handful of WRs that could do it? Heck, there are a handful of wideouts who are doing it ON HIS OWN TEAM. Did you miss the part where I posted what his teammates numbers were? And even if you think Miami is a mess, offensively... surely you can't think it's as much of a mess as the Detroit Lions, losingest team in the NFL- and yet Charles Rogers (biggest WR bust in history) managed to outperform Chambers, too. I've given a long list of WRs who have been in similar situations to Chambers and still produced much better than he has.If you're going to hold the position that until someone goes into Chambers EXACT situation and outproduces him, then there's no point in discussing that with you, since you're talking about a hypothetical that will never happen. I could just plug my fingers in my ears and say that until I see Peyton Manning win three superbowls with the Patriots, I refuse to acknowledge the possibility that he's as good or better than Tom Brady, too. It's a pretty safe arguement, because you can never be proven wrong. It's also a pretty crappy arguement, because it leaves no room for discussion.PahtyTom said:
I offer the same qualifier I always offer with Chris Chambers- I do watch the games. I promise, I really do. I am a Broncos fan, but I live in South Florida. All of my friends, whom I watch football with, are diehard Dolphin fans. I probably see 14 Broncos games every year, and 14 Dolphins games every year. These are the two teams that I really feel qualified to discuss because of my watching tendencies.Now, the quarterbacking was absolutely terrible last season. There were a lot of poorly timed throws, and a lot of inaccurate throws, and those certainly contributed to Chambers' reduced catch%. With that said, Miami's quarterbacking was NOT the worst in the NFL. Bottom 10, maybe, but Oakland, Tampa Bay, and Cleveland were without hesitation, without question SO much worse than Miami... and yet no Oakland/TB/Cleveland WR sucked as badly as Chambers. Sure, some of the balls thrown his way were off the mark, but Welker and Booker both managed to make a play on the balls, whereas Chambers did not. Chambers seemingly has a very tight window, and if you fit a ball in that window he'll catch it (or not, his hands are still some of the worst in the league), but if it's outside of that window he's got no chance. Also, some of those balls would be closer to him if his route running were a little crisper (see Wes Welker)- and in my opinion, there's no excuse for that. It's not like he was running low-percentage routes, here. Most of his routes were in the short-to-intermediate range, but Chambers seemed to lack the sense of timing necessary for those routes. Does that mean he was being misused? Well, as you said, he's not much of a burner, so sending him on deep routes seems silly, too.Blaming the QBing can only take you so far, too. Harrington completed 57.5% of his passes last year. Chambers was running mostly high-percentage routes. There is no excuse for a 39% catch%.As for the stats... I'm not a stat guy, or at least, not exclusively... but I do think statistics have a big place in football. The big difference between football stats and baseball stats is that football stats need a lot more context. For instance, catch% needs to be taken in the context of the offensive line, the other receiving targets, the QB, what sort of routes the WR is running, and what sort of coverages he's facing. As long as you keep the context, though, I see no problem at all with using statistics to analyze football. Heck, statistics tend to be a lot more accurate than conventional analysis. Next season, sort the WRs by their catch% the season before, and then sort them by ADP, and see which one correlates better with future performance. Catch% analysis led to hits on fantasy studs like Lee Evans, as well as steering people clear of fantasy busts like Chris Chambers. Statistics very definitely have a place in football. I don't use statistics to replace my good judgement, but I absolutely use statistics to supplement my good judgement.As to Chris Chambers being in the top 20 next year... I'd put money on it. Chris Chambers is a near-mortal lock to finish among the top 20 WRs. When I say he's a poor WR, I mean in real-world NFL terms, not fantasy terms. With the amount of opportunities Chambers receives, he could be a corpse and he'd still be a viable fantasy starter.Liquid Tension said:
The problem is that CHAMBERS was running a lot of the underneath routes.Here's the thing. I did see the number of balls thrown nowhere near Chambers. The thing is, there were nowhere NEAR as many balls thrown nowhere near Welker or Booker, despite playing with the same QB in the same offense. At some point, some of the blame has to come off of Harrington and has to settle on Chambers. Which is more likely- Was Harrington an accurate passer all the time except when he was throwing to Chambers? Or was Harrington just as accurate throwing to Welker as he was to Chambers, but Welker was better at running routes, gaining separation, and making a play on the ball when it was in the air? Personally, I subscribe to the second theory.massraider said:
Chambers has some of the best body control and makes the best mid-air adjustments I have ever seen. I would love to see him on a pass happy team for sure, but arguing all day about it is pointless. We will never know how good he is/can be until he gets on a team or in a system where he can truly be given opportunity to shine. He hasn't had that yet, IMHO
Beaumont
Footballguy
Troy Williamson?
PahtyTom
Footballguy
Chambers is established by having good/great numbers over his career. One season does not make/break a player, so the handful of wideouts on his own team argument is kind of silly. Also, the types of passes and routes need to be factored in if you really want to attempt at being sabermetric or whatever. The CBs he faces opposed to the other WRs on his team should be a major factor as well.The Lions being the losingest team in the NFL does not mean that they have a worse offense than Miami. In fact, by being behind so often and having a bad defense it aids WR stats in some cases. If you put Miami's defense on Detroit, I'm pretty sure that they would no longer be the "losingest" team in the league. To say that Charles Rogers has outperformed Chambers is ridiculous and merits no real counterargument for the sake of not wasting time.
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Liquid Tension
Footballguy
Without rehashing the entire thread, thanks for your response SSOG.
I will make a few comments though:
I agree that there is a place for statistical analysis in football (real or fantasy), but baseball is FAR more accurate
Chambers is not nearly as bulky as TO and huge is an odd term for him if you ask me
Chambers did not run a lot of crossing patterns because he was the one who usually had the coverage slide to him. Welkers passes were almost all in the center of the field and that is where Harrington was better. Booker was another they threw to a lot on slants. I am not defending Chambers last year, he played VERY poor , but he had some nagging injuries and the QB situation was poor.
Glad you agree that he is top 20 fantasy wise. you said not top 50 in real world though and that is just silly. I have him about 22nd.
I will make a few comments though:
I agree that there is a place for statistical analysis in football (real or fantasy), but baseball is FAR more accurate
Chambers is not nearly as bulky as TO and huge is an odd term for him if you ask me
Chambers did not run a lot of crossing patterns because he was the one who usually had the coverage slide to him. Welkers passes were almost all in the center of the field and that is where Harrington was better. Booker was another they threw to a lot on slants. I am not defending Chambers last year, he played VERY poor , but he had some nagging injuries and the QB situation was poor.
Glad you agree that he is top 20 fantasy wise. you said not top 50 in real world though and that is just silly. I have him about 22nd.
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