Ryan Howard signs 5-year, $125 million deal (1 Viewer)

[fred_1_15301]

Just 2 quick points....

1) What does Utley's stats have anything to do with Howard?

They are completely different players. Howard is a power hitter, while Utley is more of an all around player. The only players that should be compared to Howard are his piers...Arod, Pujols, Prince, etc., but if you used them as a comparison, you would lose your arguement, because Howard's power numbers would dwarf all of them. Pujols is a better player, but Howard is a better HR guy.

This is horrible

Yes my spelling was wrong, but my premise was not. 4 Year Totals

Pujols- 165 HR, 491 RBIs

Arod- 154 HR, 491 RBIs

Prince- 158 HR, 443 RBIs

Pena- 116 HRs, 323 RBIs (3 yrs)

Howard- 198 HR, 577 RBIs

That is 33 HRs and 86 RBIs more than his closest competition. While is average might be lower, and he will strike out more than most, his numbers speak for themselves. If you want to say that he has not lead the league any 1 year, that is fine. But it is his consistancy that makes him the elite player that he is.

LMAO at the idea of Mauer being compared to Howard. He has hit more than 13 HRs only once, and that was last year with 28. He is back to normal this year, with 1.

You guys are acting like premier power hitters grow on trees. Howard stands in a class by himself.

I expect Howard's numbers to decrease by the end of his contract. The same can be said about Arod, and Pujols (after he signs next deal) at the end of their respective contracts. Pujols is the ONLY player in baseball that I would trade straight up for Howard, but his back issues scare me.

Why are you comparing 4 year totals for these players? Nobody is disputing that Howard was the premier power hitter from 2006-2008. The statistics showed that he certainly wasn't dwarfing the other guys in power last season. He wasn't even the top HR hitter in the league last season. He certainly isn't off to a great start tihs season either. Is it possible that we're already seeing a decline in Howard's power? He doesn't stand in a class by himself....in fact he's no longer even at the top of the class.

If Pujols is the ONLY player that you'd trade straight up for Howard, I'm thankful that you're nowhere near the Phillies front office. Why are you lauging at Mauer? He's a better OVERALL player than Howard right now. He's a great defender, a great hitter and even has a little bit of power. He also doesn't have near the protection that Howard has.

Howard is easy to game plan against. Bring in a lefty and he's an easy out. Thankfully for him he's got lefty killer Werth hitting behind him and one of the best overall hitters in the game hitting in front of him. I think the Phils and Amaro have done a lot of things right lately but this was not one of them. Hopefully we're all wrong and it works out for them.

 

[shadyridr]

Just 2 quick points....

1) What does Utley's stats have anything to do with Howard?

They are completely different players. Howard is a power hitter, while Utley is more of an all around player. The only players that should be compared to Howard are his piers...Arod, Pujols, Prince, etc., but if you used them as a comparison, you would lose your arguement, because Howard's power numbers would dwarf all of them. Pujols is a better player, but Howard is a better HR guy.

This is horrible

Yes my spelling was wrong, but my premise was not. 4 Year Totals

Pujols- 165 HR, 491 RBIs

Arod- 154 HR, 491 RBIs

Prince- 158 HR, 443 RBIs

Pena- 116 HRs, 323 RBIs (3 yrs)

Howard- 198 HR, 577 RBIs

That is 33 HRs and 86 RBIs more than his closest competition. While is average might be lower, and he will strike out more than most, his numbers speak for themselves. If you want to say that he has not lead the league any 1 year, that is fine. But it is his consistancy that makes him the elite player that he is.

LMAO at the idea of Mauer being compared to Howard. He has hit more than 13 HRs only once, and that was last year with 28. He is back to normal this year, with 1.

You guys are acting like premier power hitters grow on trees. Howard stands in a class by himself.

I expect Howard's numbers to decrease by the end of his contract. The same can be said about Arod, and Pujols (after he signs next deal) at the end of their respective contracts. Pujols is the ONLY player in baseball that I would trade straight up for Howard, but his back issues scare me.

Umm Im laughing at the fact you said Pujols is a better player but Howard is a better HR guy? NEWSFLASH: Who gives a ####? Like I said earlier Mark Reynolds is a better HR guy than David Wright but that doesnt mean Reynolds is an elite 3B. And I named 15 guys Id rather have than Howard. Youre delusional if you think hes the 2nd best player in baseball.

 

[=Smackdown=]

Pujols, Fielder & Gonzalez are all

Why did the Phillies do this now? Who are they competing against to give Howard 25 million a year?

With Teixeira locked up for the next few years how many other teams can afford that type of contract? Red Sox? Mets?

Not saying he doesn't deserve the contract but it seems likek Philly is negotiating againsat themselves on this one.

 

[Genedoc]

Just 2 quick points....

1) What does Utley's stats have anything to do with Howard?

They are completely different players. Howard is a power hitter, while Utley is more of an all around player. The only players that should be compared to Howard are his piers...Arod, Pujols, Prince, etc., but if you used them as a comparison, you would lose your arguement, because Howard's power numbers would dwarf all of them. Pujols is a better player, but Howard is a better HR guy.

This is horrible

Yes my spelling was wrong, but my premise was not. 4 Year Totals

Pujols- 165 HR, 491 RBIs

Arod- 154 HR, 491 RBIs

Prince- 158 HR, 443 RBIs

Pena- 116 HRs, 323 RBIs (3 yrs)

Howard- 198 HR, 577 RBIs

That is 33 HRs and 86 RBIs more than his closest competition. While is average might be lower, and he will strike out more than most, his numbers speak for themselves. If you want to say that he has not lead the league any 1 year, that is fine. But it is his consistancy that makes him the elite player that he is.

LMAO at the idea of Mauer being compared to Howard. He has hit more than 13 HRs only once, and that was last year with 28. He is back to normal this year, with 1.

You guys are acting like premier power hitters grow on trees. Howard stands in a class by himself.

I expect Howard's numbers to decrease by the end of his contract. The same can be said about Arod, and Pujols (after he signs next deal) at the end of their respective contracts. Pujols is the ONLY player in baseball that I would trade straight up for Howard, but his back issues scare me.

Umm Im laughing at the fact you said Pujols is a better player but Howard is a better HR guy? NEWSFLASH: Who gives a ####? Like I said earlier Mark Reynolds is a better HR guy than David Wright but that doesnt mean Reynolds is an elite 3B. And I named 15 guys Id rather have than Howard. Youre delusional if you think hes the 2nd best player in baseball.

I'm growing more and more convinced we've been fished. I find it hard to believe there are this many people in the world who think Howard is the 2nd best player in baseball, much less denizens of FBG who actually follow baseball. If it was coming from Aunt Edna or the 10 year old kids who can only comprehend a couple of statistical categories, maybe, but coming from alleged hardcore baseball fans, it certainly feels like fishing at this point.

 

[pollardsvision]

Pujols, Fielder & Gonzalez are all

Why did the Phillies do this now? Who are they competing against to give Howard 25 million a year?

With Teixeira locked up for the next few years how many other teams can afford that type of contract? Red Sox? Mets?

Not saying he doesn't deserve the contract but it seems likek Philly is negotiating againsat themselves on this one.

I've been trying wrap my mind around that. The only thing I can come up with is this that they knew, with Howard locked up for 2 more years, they wouldn't have a chance for a one of the younger elite 1B. Maybe they were scared of getting to the negotiating table in a couple of years and having to re-sign Howard. Maybe they were scared that, in 2 years, another big market team would still need a 1B and a bidding war would ensue. They go to arbitration every year with this guy, so they know there's no way he'd ever leave a single penny on the table. I'm just grasping at straws though. Maybe they feared the worst case scenario (all out bidding war over Howard), but it looks like they went and paid him worst case scenario money anyway. I don't even think the mid-2000's Yankees would've done this deal.

 

[Softballguy]

Thanks, Phillies, for pretty much guaranteeing The Brewers won't be able to resign Prince. Good god, this is a bad contract. But their mistake paves the way for other teams to overpay players, which means teams who can't waste money won't be able to retain their talent.

 

[=Smackdown=]

Pujols, Fielder & Gonzalez are all

Why did the Phillies do this now? Who are they competing against to give Howard 25 million a year?

With Teixeira locked up for the next few years how many other teams can afford that type of contract? Red Sox? Mets?

Not saying he doesn't deserve the contract but it seems likek Philly is negotiating againsat themselves on this one.

I've been trying wrap my mind around that. The only thing I can come up with is this that they knew, with Howard locked up for 2 more years, they wouldn't have a chance for a one of the younger elite 1B. Maybe they were scared of getting to the negotiating table in a couple of years and having to re-sign Howard. Maybe they were scared that, in 2 years, another big market team would still need a 1B and a bidding war would ensue. They go to arbitration every year with this guy, so they know there's no way he'd ever leave a single penny on the table. I'm just grasping at straws though. Maybe they feared the worst case scenario (all out bidding war over Howard), but it looks like they went and paid him worst case scenario money anyway. I don't even think the mid-2000's Yankees would've done this deal.

I think the mid-2000 Yankees did exactly this type of deal with Arod - who were they negotiating/competing against when they gave him 30 million a year?

This Howard deal reminds me of that.

 

[Domination]

Just 2 quick points....

1) What does Utley's stats have anything to do with Howard?

They are completely different players. Howard is a power hitter, while Utley is more of an all around player. The only players that should be compared to Howard are his piers...Arod, Pujols, Prince, etc., but if you used them as a comparison, you would lose your arguement, because Howard's power numbers would dwarf all of them. Pujols is a better player, but Howard is a better HR guy.

This is horrible

Yes my spelling was wrong, but my premise was not. 4 Year Totals

Pujols- 165 HR, 491 RBIs

Arod- 154 HR, 491 RBIs

Prince- 158 HR, 443 RBIs

Pena- 116 HRs, 323 RBIs (3 yrs)

Howard- 198 HR, 577 RBIs

That is 33 HRs and 86 RBIs more than his closest competition. While is average might be lower, and he will strike out more than most, his numbers speak for themselves. If you want to say that he has not lead the league any 1 year, that is fine. But it is his consistancy that makes him the elite player that he is.

LMAO at the idea of Mauer being compared to Howard. He has hit more than 13 HRs only once, and that was last year with 28. He is back to normal this year, with 1.

You guys are acting like premier power hitters grow on trees. Howard stands in a class by himself.

I expect Howard's numbers to decrease by the end of his contract. The same can be said about Arod, and Pujols (after he signs next deal) at the end of their respective contracts. Pujols is the ONLY player in baseball that I would trade straight up for Howard, but his back issues scare me.

Umm Im laughing at the fact you said Pujols is a better player but Howard is a better HR guy? NEWSFLASH: Who gives a ####? Like I said earlier Mark Reynolds is a better HR guy than David Wright but that doesnt mean Reynolds is an elite 3B. And I named 15 guys Id rather have than Howard. Youre delusional if you think hes the 2nd best player in baseball.

When I stated that the only player I would take is Pujols, it was in the assumption of him as a Phillie and within their line-up. Their is no one else that I think could provide the same game changing impact that he does, with the exception of Pujols. As har as overall players, I do not believe that he is the #2 player in baseball. But their are 2 positions that get PAID, and they would be power hitters and starting pitchers. Mark Reynolds??? He has had one good year, and in that "good" year he hit he 1 less HR, had 39 less RBIs, struck out 37b more times, and his batting average was.19 points lower.

Howard is what he is, but the fact that his production is being down played to such an exagerated extent is what is bothering me. You can't just pick a guy and put him in Howard's spot and expect the same results. The only players in history to accomplish what he has are Babe Ruth and Sammy Sosa (roids). There are other players that would hit for a better average, but there is nothing to show that anyone else would be able provide the numbers that he does.

BTW I used 4 year stats because it was a good baseline to show production, rather than just last year. Considering that Howard still hit 45 HRs & 141 RBIs, his "decline" did not seem evident or valid. His batting average also was up .27 points from the previous year.

 

[pollardsvision]

Pujols, Fielder & Gonzalez are all

Why did the Phillies do this now? Who are they competing against to give Howard 25 million a year?

With Teixeira locked up for the next few years how many other teams can afford that type of contract? Red Sox? Mets?

Not saying he doesn't deserve the contract but it seems likek Philly is negotiating againsat themselves on this one.

I've been trying wrap my mind around that. The only thing I can come up with is this that they knew, with Howard locked up for 2 more years, they wouldn't have a chance for a one of the younger elite 1B. Maybe they were scared of getting to the negotiating table in a couple of years and having to re-sign Howard. Maybe they were scared that, in 2 years, another big market team would still need a 1B and a bidding war would ensue. They go to arbitration every year with this guy, so they know there's no way he'd ever leave a single penny on the table. I'm just grasping at straws though. Maybe they feared the worst case scenario (all out bidding war over Howard), but it looks like they went and paid him worst case scenario money anyway. I don't even think the mid-2000's Yankees would've done this deal.

I think the mid-2000 Yankees did exactly this type of deal with Arod - who were they negotiating/competing against when they gave him 30 million a year?

This Howard deal reminds me of that.

I can't argue with that. Given what's known at the time of the contracts and the overall situations, I'd still say Howard's contract is worse, but it wouldn't be an argument worth having. Both are terrible contracts.

 

[dparker713]

Pujols, Fielder & Gonzalez are all

Why did the Phillies do this now? Who are they competing against to give Howard 25 million a year?

With Teixeira locked up for the next few years how many other teams can afford that type of contract? Red Sox? Mets?

Not saying he doesn't deserve the contract but it seems likek Philly is negotiating againsat themselves on this one.

I've been trying wrap my mind around that. The only thing I can come up with is this that they knew, with Howard locked up for 2 more years, they wouldn't have a chance for a one of the younger elite 1B. Maybe they were scared of getting to the negotiating table in a couple of years and having to re-sign Howard. Maybe they were scared that, in 2 years, another big market team would still need a 1B and a bidding war would ensue. They go to arbitration every year with this guy, so they know there's no way he'd ever leave a single penny on the table. I'm just grasping at straws though. Maybe they feared the worst case scenario (all out bidding war over Howard), but it looks like they went and paid him worst case scenario money anyway. I don't even think the mid-2000's Yankees would've done this deal.

I think the mid-2000 Yankees did exactly this type of deal with Arod - who were they negotiating/competing against when they gave him 30 million a year?

This Howard deal reminds me of that.

I can't argue with that. Given what's known at the time of the contracts and the overall situations, I'd still say Howard's contract is worse, but it wouldn't be an argument worth having. Both are terrible contracts.

But the Yankees can afford their to completely bust. The Phils cant.

 

[dparker713]

Just 2 quick points....

1) What does Utley's stats have anything to do with Howard?

They are completely different players. Howard is a power hitter, while Utley is more of an all around player. The only players that should be compared to Howard are his piers...Arod, Pujols, Prince, etc., but if you used them as a comparison, you would lose your arguement, because Howard's power numbers would dwarf all of them. Pujols is a better player, but Howard is a better HR guy.

This is horrible

Yes my spelling was wrong, but my premise was not. 4 Year Totals

Pujols- 165 HR, 491 RBIs

Arod- 154 HR, 491 RBIs

Prince- 158 HR, 443 RBIs

Pena- 116 HRs, 323 RBIs (3 yrs)

Howard- 198 HR, 577 RBIs

That is 33 HRs and 86 RBIs more than his closest competition. While is average might be lower, and he will strike out more than most, his numbers speak for themselves. If you want to say that he has not lead the league any 1 year, that is fine. But it is his consistancy that makes him the elite player that he is.

LMAO at the idea of Mauer being compared to Howard. He has hit more than 13 HRs only once, and that was last year with 28. He is back to normal this year, with 1.

You guys are acting like premier power hitters grow on trees. Howard stands in a class by himself.

I expect Howard's numbers to decrease by the end of his contract. The same can be said about Arod, and Pujols (after he signs next deal) at the end of their respective contracts. Pujols is the ONLY player in baseball that I would trade straight up for Howard, but his back issues scare me.

Umm Im laughing at the fact you said Pujols is a better player but Howard is a better HR guy? NEWSFLASH: Who gives a ####? Like I said earlier Mark Reynolds is a better HR guy than David Wright but that doesnt mean Reynolds is an elite 3B. And I named 15 guys Id rather have than Howard. Youre delusional if you think hes the 2nd best player in baseball.

When I stated that the only player I would take is Pujols, it was in the assumption of him as a Phillie and within their line-up. Their is no one else that I think could provide the same game changing impact that he does, with the exception of Pujols. As har as overall players, I do not believe that he is the #2 player in baseball. But their are 2 positions that get PAID, and they would be power hitters and starting pitchers. Mark Reynolds??? He has had one good year, and in that "good" year he hit he 1 less HR, had 39 less RBIs, struck out 37b more times, and his batting average was.19 points lower.

Howard is what he is, but the fact that his production is being down played to such an exagerated extent is what is bothering me. You can't just pick a guy and put him in Howard's spot and expect the same results. The only players in history to accomplish what he has are Babe Ruth and Sammy Sosa (roids). There are other players that would hit for a better average, but there is nothing to show that anyone else would be able provide the numbers that he does.

BTW I used 4 year stats because it was a good baseline to show production, rather than just last year. Considering that Howard still hit 45 HRs & 141 RBIs, his "decline" did not seem evident or valid. His batting average also was up .27 points from the previous year.

Do you really care how the guy in the 4 spot brings in runners? Sure, Howard's likely to hit more HRs than someone else you plug into that lineup (for a couple of years atleast), but other hitters will bring in more runners in general because they hit more singles and doubles to more than make up for the fewer HRs. There are just a number of people in MLB that could put up the same or better RBI totals while making fewer outs.

 

[fred_1_15301]

Just 2 quick points....

1) What does Utley's stats have anything to do with Howard?

They are completely different players. Howard is a power hitter, while Utley is more of an all around player. The only players that should be compared to Howard are his piers...Arod, Pujols, Prince, etc., but if you used them as a comparison, you would lose your arguement, because Howard's power numbers would dwarf all of them. Pujols is a better player, but Howard is a better HR guy.

This is horrible

Yes my spelling was wrong, but my premise was not. 4 Year Totals

Pujols- 165 HR, 491 RBIs

Arod- 154 HR, 491 RBIs

Prince- 158 HR, 443 RBIs

Pena- 116 HRs, 323 RBIs (3 yrs)

Howard- 198 HR, 577 RBIs

That is 33 HRs and 86 RBIs more than his closest competition. While is average might be lower, and he will strike out more than most, his numbers speak for themselves. If you want to say that he has not lead the league any 1 year, that is fine. But it is his consistancy that makes him the elite player that he is.

LMAO at the idea of Mauer being compared to Howard. He has hit more than 13 HRs only once, and that was last year with 28. He is back to normal this year, with 1.

You guys are acting like premier power hitters grow on trees. Howard stands in a class by himself.

I expect Howard's numbers to decrease by the end of his contract. The same can be said about Arod, and Pujols (after he signs next deal) at the end of their respective contracts. Pujols is the ONLY player in baseball that I would trade straight up for Howard, but his back issues scare me.

Umm Im laughing at the fact you said Pujols is a better player but Howard is a better HR guy? NEWSFLASH: Who gives a ####? Like I said earlier Mark Reynolds is a better HR guy than David Wright but that doesnt mean Reynolds is an elite 3B. And I named 15 guys Id rather have than Howard. Youre delusional if you think hes the 2nd best player in baseball.

When I stated that the only player I would take is Pujols, it was in the assumption of him as a Phillie and within their line-up. Their is no one else that I think could provide the same game changing impact that he does, with the exception of Pujols. As har as overall players, I do not believe that he is the #2 player in baseball. But their are 2 positions that get PAID, and they would be power hitters and starting pitchers. Mark Reynolds??? He has had one good year, and in that "good" year he hit he 1 less HR, had 39 less RBIs, struck out 37b more times, and his batting average was.19 points lower.

Howard is what he is, but the fact that his production is being down played to such an exagerated extent is what is bothering me. You can't just pick a guy and put him in Howard's spot and expect the same results. The only players in history to accomplish what he has are Babe Ruth and Sammy Sosa (roids). There are other players that would hit for a better average, but there is nothing to show that anyone else would be able provide the numbers that he does.

BTW I used 4 year stats because it was a good baseline to show production, rather than just last year. Considering that Howard still hit 45 HRs & 141 RBIs, his "decline" did not seem evident or valid. His batting average also was up .27 points from the previous year.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the bolded point. I believe that he's on the decline because I've seen his power numbers gradually decrease (markedly against left handed pitching). As others have mentioned, his ISO has gone down each year and his K/BB ratio has gone up each year. A comparable guy like Adrian Gonzalez has seen the exact opposite trend over the past 4 years. He's going to be a premier power hitter this year and probably the next couple years as well. I only question how many of the years on the extension the Phillies will end up regretting. Oh well...if the Phils can afford it good for them. I do like the Phils so I hope you're right and it works out for them.

 

[the moops]

Good thing for the rest of baseball there are more ways to score runs than hitting the ball over the fence.

 

[shadyridr]

Pujols, Fielder & Gonzalez are all :X

Why did the Phillies do this now? Who are they competing against to give Howard 25 million a year?

With Teixeira locked up for the next few years how many other teams can afford that type of contract? Red Sox? Mets?

Not saying he doesn't deserve the contract but it seems likek Philly is negotiating againsat themselves on this one.

I've been trying wrap my mind around that. The only thing I can come up with is this that they knew, with Howard locked up for 2 more years, they wouldn't have a chance for a one of the younger elite 1B. Maybe they were scared of getting to the negotiating table in a couple of years and having to re-sign Howard. Maybe they were scared that, in 2 years, another big market team would still need a 1B and a bidding war would ensue. They go to arbitration every year with this guy, so they know there's no way he'd ever leave a single penny on the table. I'm just grasping at straws though. Maybe they feared the worst case scenario (all out bidding war over Howard), but it looks like they went and paid him worst case scenario money anyway. I don't even think the mid-2000's Yankees would've done this deal.

I think the mid-2000 Yankees did exactly this type of deal with Arod - who were they negotiating/competing against when they gave him 30 million a year?

This Howard deal reminds me of that.

I can't argue with that. Given what's known at the time of the contracts and the overall situations, I'd still say Howard's contract is worse, but it wouldn't be an argument worth having. Both are terrible contracts.

At least most Yankee fans can admit the ARod contract was bad

 

[Domination]

Pujols, Fielder & Gonzalez are all

Why did the Phillies do this now? Who are they competing against to give Howard 25 million a year?

With Teixeira locked up for the next few years how many other teams can afford that type of contract? Red Sox? Mets?

Not saying he doesn't deserve the contract but it seems likek Philly is negotiating againsat themselves on this one.

I've been trying wrap my mind around that. The only thing I can come up with is this that they knew, with Howard locked up for 2 more years, they wouldn't have a chance for a one of the younger elite 1B. Maybe they were scared of getting to the negotiating table in a couple of years and having to re-sign Howard. Maybe they were scared that, in 2 years, another big market team would still need a 1B and a bidding war would ensue. They go to arbitration every year with this guy, so they know there's no way he'd ever leave a single penny on the table. I'm just grasping at straws though. Maybe they feared the worst case scenario (all out bidding war over Howard), but it looks like they went and paid him worst case scenario money anyway. I don't even think the mid-2000's Yankees would've done this deal.

I think the mid-2000 Yankees did exactly this type of deal with Arod - who were they negotiating/competing against when they gave him 30 million a year?

This Howard deal reminds me of that.

I can't argue with that. Given what's known at the time of the contracts and the overall situations, I'd still say Howard's contract is worse, but it wouldn't be an argument worth having. Both are terrible contracts.

At least most Yankee fans can admit the ARod contract was bad

I never argued that it was a good contract. It is a market value contract, and needed to get done to keep him in Philly. If they would have let him walk, there would have been plenty of people complaining about that also. I think that if he was allowed to go into free agency, he would have commanded and gotten a bigger deal than this because contracts are going up, not down. If Jason Bay can get $16 mil and Holliday can get $18 mil, I think it is definitely forseeable that Howard could have gotten more than $25 mil/yr.IMO this is the Phillies paying one of their own, and trying to stay elite to win another championship in the next 5 yrs. It is hard to knock a team for trying to win.

 

[the moops]

It is a market value contract, and needed to get done to keep him in Philly.

No it isn't.25 million/year is above and beyond and market besides the ridiculous one in all of you Phillis fans heads.

 

[dparker713]

I never argued that it was a good contract. It is a market value contract, and needed to get done to keep him in Philly. If they would have let him walk, there would have been plenty of people complaining about that also. I think that if he was allowed to go into free agency, he would have commanded and gotten a bigger deal than this because contracts are going up, not down. If Jason Bay can get $16 mil and Holliday can get $18 mil, I think it is definitely forseeable that Howard could have gotten more than $25 mil/yr.IMO this is the Phillies paying one of their own, and trying to stay elite to win another championship in the next 5 yrs. It is hard to knock a team for trying to win.

The extension pays him as the second best player in baseball. If he's not the second best player in the league, he's not, and he's not expected to become the second best player in the leauge, he isnt, then how exactly is it market rate?Also, for the last 2 years, contracts have been going down. Outside of the enormous spending spree by the Yankees prior to 2009, the market has gone waaaaay down. There is no way Howard's production is worth 40% more than Holliday's and 55% more than Bay's. None. No chance.

 

[Domination]

It is a market value contract, and needed to get done to keep him in Philly.

No it isn't.25 million/year is above and beyond and market besides the ridiculous one in all of you Phillis fans heads.

Joe Mauer got $23 mil/yr (8yrs, 184 mil) and won't have a position in a few yrs. He won't still be catching at 35, and Morneau is at 1st.Arod got over $27 mil (10 yrs, 275 mil)???Teixeira got over $22 mil (8 yrs, 180 mil)Howard would fit in the middle of this group. This list does not include Agon, Fielder, or Pujols. Who will all command big money in the next 2 years, and will not surprise me if they get more money than Howard.

 

[Michael Brown]

Just 2 quick points....

1) What does Utley's stats have anything to do with Howard?

They are completely different players. Howard is a power hitter, while Utley is more of an all around player. The only players that should be compared to Howard are his piers...Arod, Pujols, Prince, etc., but if you used them as a comparison, you would lose your arguement, because Howard's power numbers would dwarf all of them. Pujols is a better player, but Howard is a better HR guy.

This is horrible

Yes my spelling was wrong, but my premise was not. 4 Year Totals

Pujols- 165 HR, 491 RBIs

Arod- 154 HR, 491 RBIs

Prince- 158 HR, 443 RBIs

Pena- 116 HRs, 323 RBIs (3 yrs)

Howard- 198 HR, 577 RBIs

That is 33 HRs and 86 RBIs more than his closest competition. While is average might be lower, and he will strike out more than most, his numbers speak for themselves. If you want to say that he has not lead the league any 1 year, that is fine. But it is his consistancy that makes him the elite player that he is.

LMAO at the idea of Mauer being compared to Howard. He has hit more than 13 HRs only once, and that was last year with 28. He is back to normal this year, with 1.

You guys are acting like premier power hitters grow on trees. Howard stands in a class by himself.

I expect Howard's numbers to decrease by the end of his contract. The same can be said about Arod, and Pujols (after he signs next deal) at the end of their respective contracts. Pujols is the ONLY player in baseball that I would trade straight up for Howard, but his back issues scare me.

Nobody is comparing Mauer's HR totals to those of Howard. My point was about hitting HR and the type of hitters that get them. Home runs are great, and exciting, and they obviously help a great deal. But they are not the only stat that matters. Mauer, Pujols, hell even Ty Cobb (who believed home runs were something of a sideshow) sacrificed lots of HR totals in order to be more controlled hitters. You don't think Ichiro could hit 30 HR? Go watch him take BP sometime. Wade Boggs, Tony Gwynn more of the same. It's what sets apart players like Pujols, Frank Thomas, Ted Williams in their primes -- because they did both.Howard is much like Darryl Strawberry was in his prime. Best HR hitter in the game, but he struck out a bunch and hit around .250-.260 a lot of years. If every game was a HR derby, that'd be great. But 40-45 HR out of 650 plate appearances is not worth $25 million.

 

[the moops]

Joe Mauer got $23 mil/yr (8yrs, 184 mil) and won't have a position in a few yrs. He won't still be catching at 35, and Morneau is at 1st.

By a few years, do you mean 8? Joe Mauer is 27 years old.

 

[pollardsvision]

I never argued that it was a good contract. It is a market value contract, and needed to get done to keep him in Philly. If they would have let him walk, there would have been plenty of people complaining about that also. I think that if he was allowed to go into free agency, he would have commanded and gotten a bigger deal than this because contracts are going up, not down. If Jason Bay can get $16 mil and Holliday can get $18 mil, I think it is definitely forseeable that Howard could have gotten more than $25 mil/yr.

IMO this is the Phillies paying one of their own, and trying to stay elite to win another championship in the next 5 yrs. It is hard to knock a team for trying to win.

The issue is with the bolded:

1- Market value? Maybe it is (doubt it, but maybe). We don't really know because there was no "market". There wouldn't have been for another 2 years. Then there's no way to know what the market will look like in 2 years. Alot of really good 1B could be about to change teams. Phillies have no idea who will be available or who would be in the market in 2 years.

2-Nothing needed to get done to keep him in Philly. The could've waited a couple of years to deal with this and would've had the advantage of more information (in addition to market information). Based on HR/RBI, Howard has been Babe Ruth for 4 years. How's that for buying at peak value?

Of all the arguments to be made, it can't really be argued that there was a single reason to do the deal now. Some might say it's good for Howard's morale to get this taken care of, but that wouldn't make sense. The opposite would though. Howard has been Babe Ruth while essentially playing for a new contract every year. Not that he would mail it in, but we know he performs at an elite level when he's worried about getting paid.

 

[Domination]

Nobody is comparing Mauer's HR totals to those of Howard. My point was about hitting HR and the type of hitters that get them. Home runs are great, and exciting, and they obviously help a great deal. But they are not the only stat that matters. Mauer, Pujols, hell even Ty Cobb (who believed home runs were something of a sideshow) sacrificed lots of HR totals in order to be more controlled hitters. You don't think Ichiro could hit 30 HR? Go watch him take BP sometime. Wade Boggs, Tony Gwynn more of the same. It's what sets apart players like Pujols, Frank Thomas, Ted Williams in their primes -- because they did both.Howard is much like Darryl Strawberry was in his prime. Best HR hitter in the game, but he struck out a bunch and hit around .250-.260 a lot of years. If every game was a HR derby, that'd be great. But 40-45 HR out of 650 plate appearances is not worth $25 million.

Howard is not a .250-.260 hitter. He is a career .280 hitter, and has only hit below that number twice. He gets refered to like a typical power hitter who hits around .250, and he is not.

 

[shadyridr]

It is a market value contract, and needed to get done to keep him in Philly.

No it isn't.25 million/year is above and beyond and market besides the ridiculous one in all of you Phillis fans heads.

Joe Mauer got $23 mil/yr (8yrs, 184 mil) and won't have a position in a few yrs. He won't still be catching at 35, and Morneau is at 1st.Arod got over $27 mil (10 yrs, 275 mil)???Teixeira got over $22 mil (8 yrs, 180 mil)Howard would fit in the middle of this group. This list does not include Agon, Fielder, or Pujols. Who will all command big money in the next 2 years, and will not surprise me if they get more money than Howard.

Tex > Howard yet hes getting paid less and youre using that to support your argument?

 

[Michael Brown]

It is a market value contract, and needed to get done to keep him in Philly.

No it isn't.25 million/year is above and beyond and market besides the ridiculous one in all of you Phillis fans heads.

Joe Mauer got $23 mil/yr (8yrs, 184 mil) and won't have a position in a few yrs. He won't still be catching at 35, and Morneau is at 1st.Arod got over $27 mil (10 yrs, 275 mil)???Teixeira got over $22 mil (8 yrs, 180 mil)Howard would fit in the middle of this group. This list does not include Agon, Fielder, or Pujols. Who will all command big money in the next 2 years, and will not surprise me if they get more money than Howard.

The middle of what group??? Howard hits HR and gets RBIs. But other players in his lineup slot would have just as many, if not more, RBIs. Some people seem to think that if you plug a guy like Ichiro into the cleanup slot he'd still be a 50-RBI guy. The spot in the lineup and the players hitting in front of and behind you are just as important as what you actually do.Howard's career BA as of right now is .279, while his career BA with runners in scoring position is .279...which means he doesn't get better when guys are on base than when nobody is on. I don't know how that somehow "proves" that he's some great run-producer. A guy who hits .279 with RISP is probably about a league-average hitter with RISP. He hits more HR than most, so a few more of those guys are driven in than they would be with singles and doubles. But when you compound how many MORE singles and doubles the other elite hitters would get (guys who hit .347 with RISP like Mauer, or guys who hit .338 with RISP like Ichiro), I think you'd see them both driving in 140+ runs as well no matter how many HR they hit.Edit to correct first sentence of paragraph 2 so it makes sense.

 

[the moops]

Howard has been Babe Ruth while essentially playing for a new contract every year.

I know you are using his logic against him, but these two should never be in the same sentence.it would be like saying Willy Taveras is Ricky Henderson because they had similar stolen bases. Or Aaron Harang is Pedro Martinez because they had similar strikeout numbers (I am making these names up and not even checking to see if they are anywhere accurate).In this whole Ryan Howard and Babe Ruth 4 year stretch of 40 HRS and 130 RBI, or whatever the useless comparison is, Babe Ruth had an OPS of 200 points higher. Scored 50 more runs per year...Ahh. Whatever. Can't believe I got sucked into this.

 

[Michael Brown]

It is a market value contract, and needed to get done to keep him in Philly.

No it isn't.25 million/year is above and beyond and market besides the ridiculous one in all of you Phillis fans heads.

Joe Mauer got $23 mil/yr (8yrs, 184 mil) and won't have a position in a few yrs. He won't still be catching at 35, and Morneau is at 1st.Arod got over $27 mil (10 yrs, 275 mil)???Teixeira got over $22 mil (8 yrs, 180 mil)Howard would fit in the middle of this group. This list does not include Agon, Fielder, or Pujols. Who will all command big money in the next 2 years, and will not surprise me if they get more money than Howard.

Tex > Howard yet hes getting paid less and youre using that to support your argument?

Careful Shady -- I tried suggesting this last year just before the World Series and was ridiculed for even SUGGESTING such a preposterous notion.

 

[pollardsvision]

Howard has been Babe Ruth while essentially playing for a new contract every year.

I know you are using his logic against him, but these two should never be in the same sentence.it would be like saying Willy Taveras is Ricky Henderson because they had similar stolen bases. Or Aaron Harang is Pedro Martinez because they had similar strikeout numbers (I am making these names up and not even checking to see if they are anywhere accurate).In this whole Ryan Howard and Babe Ruth 4 year stretch of 40 HRS and 130 RBI, or whatever the useless comparison is, Babe Ruth had an OPS of 200 points higher. Scored 50 more runs per year...Ahh. Whatever. Can't believe I got sucked into this.

I mentioned before, I was saying that based on HR/RBI totals. Personally, I wouldn't get into really comparing Babe Ruth with a modern day player. I think he'd hit about a .150 in 2010, but that's a whole 'nother topic.

 

[the moops]

I think he'd hit about a .150 in 2010, but that's a whole 'nother topic.

Start it up.

 

[Domination]

It is a market value contract, and needed to get done to keep him in Philly.

No it isn't.25 million/year is above and beyond and market besides the ridiculous one in all of you Phillis fans heads.

Joe Mauer got $23 mil/yr (8yrs, 184 mil) and won't have a position in a few yrs. He won't still be catching at 35, and Morneau is at 1st.Arod got over $27 mil (10 yrs, 275 mil)???

Teixeira got over $22 mil (8 yrs, 180 mil)

Howard would fit in the middle of this group. This list does not include Agon, Fielder, or Pujols. Who will all command big money in the next 2 years, and will not surprise me if they get more money than Howard.

Tex > Howard yet hes getting paid less and youre using that to support your argument?

1st- I used players who got large contracts.Tex vs. Howard

Tex- 4102 AB, .287 avg, 244 HR, 807 RBI, 826 K, .377 OBP, .539 SLG, .916 OPS

Howard- 2778 AB, .279 avg, 226 HR, 657 RBI, 896 K, .374 OBP, .583 SLG, .957 OPS

Career Avg

Tex vs. Howard

.287 <- .279

37 -> 49

121 -> 141

124 <- 193

.377 <- .374

.539 -> .583

.916 -> .957

Tex is definitely a better fielder, but Howard's numbers better than his.

 

[Guest]

It is a market value contract, and needed to get done to keep him in Philly.

No it isn't.25 million/year is above and beyond and market besides the ridiculous one in all of you Phillis fans heads.

Joe Mauer got $23 mil/yr (8yrs, 184 mil) and won't have a position in a few yrs. He won't still be catching at 35, and Morneau is at 1st.Arod got over $27 mil (10 yrs, 275 mil)???

Teixeira got over $22 mil (8 yrs, 180 mil)

Howard would fit in the middle of this group. This list does not include Agon, Fielder, or Pujols. Who will all command big money in the next 2 years, and will not surprise me if they get more money than Howard.

Tex > Howard yet hes getting paid less and youre using that to support your argument?

1st- I used players who got large contracts.Tex vs. Howard

Tex- 4102 AB, .287 avg, 244 HR, 807 RBI, 826 K, .377 OBP, .539 SLG, .916 OPS

Howard- 2778 AB, .279 avg, 226 HR, 657 RBI, 896 K, .374 OBP, .583 SLG, .957 OPS

Career Avg

Tex vs. Howard

.287 <- .279

37 -> 49

121 -> 141

124 <- 193

.377 <- .374

.539 -> .583

.916 -> .957

Tex is definitely a better fielder, but Howard's numbers better than his.

Here's your real problem, Sport.The people who gave out the contracts to Tex and Mauer considered at what point they were in their development and their career. You aren't.

Tex was a rock solid switch hitter who started his FA year at the age of 28. Mauer's contract is an extension starting next year so would start in his 28th year. Those 4 years between when they start and when Howard's start at 32 is basically the prime years for a hitter. If you want to argue that Howard was worth $25MM the last 4 years, I don't think you'd have too much argument. It would certainly be close enough that I don't think anyone would really have strong opinions on the matter. The problem is when you give him a 5 year contract that starts in 2012, you're promising that he's going to be worth $25MM for those five years. And that's a really risky proposition.

 

[Domination]

The middle of what group??? Howard hits HR and gets RBIs. But other players in his lineup slot would have just as many, if not more, RBIs. Some people seem to think that if you plug a guy like Ichiro into the cleanup slot he'd still be a 50-RBI guy. The spot in the lineup and the players hitting in front of and behind you are just as important as what you actually do.

Howard's career BA as of right now is .279, while his career BA with runners in scoring position is .279...which means he doesn't get better when guys are on base than when nobody is on. I don't know how that somehow "proves" that he's some great run-producer. A guy who hits .279 with RISP is probably about a league-average hitter with RISP. He hits more HR than most, so a few more of those guys are driven in than they would be with singles and doubles. But when you compound how many MORE singles and doubles the other elite hitters would get (guys who hit .347 with RISP like Mauer, or guys who hit .338 with RISP like Ichiro), I think you'd see them both driving in 140+ runs as well no matter how many HR they hit.

This is a comment that got me thinking, so I figured that I would look into it. The numbers kinda surprised me, as I thought that I would have to concede this arguement.RISP

Ichiro-.338, 760 AB, 272 RBI (.36 RBI/AB)

Mauer- .347, 663 AB, 333 RBI (.50 RBI/AB)

Howard-.279, 810 AB, 414 RBI (.51 RBI/AB)

 

[Michael Brown]

It is a market value contract, and needed to get done to keep him in Philly.

No it isn't.25 million/year is above and beyond and market besides the ridiculous one in all of you Phillis fans heads.

Joe Mauer got $23 mil/yr (8yrs, 184 mil) and won't have a position in a few yrs. He won't still be catching at 35, and Morneau is at 1st.Arod got over $27 mil (10 yrs, 275 mil)???

Teixeira got over $22 mil (8 yrs, 180 mil)

Howard would fit in the middle of this group. This list does not include Agon, Fielder, or Pujols. Who will all command big money in the next 2 years, and will not surprise me if they get more money than Howard.

Tex > Howard yet hes getting paid less and youre using that to support your argument?

1st- I used players who got large contracts.Tex vs. Howard

Tex- 4102 AB, .287 avg, 244 HR, 807 RBI, 826 K, .377 OBP, .539 SLG, .916 OPS

Howard- 2778 AB, .279 avg, 226 HR, 657 RBI, 896 K, .374 OBP, .583 SLG, .957 OPS

Career Avg

Tex vs. Howard

.287 <- .279

37 -> 49

121 -> 141

124 <- 193

.377 <- .374

.539 -> .583

.916 -> .957

Tex is definitely a better fielder, but Howard's numbers better than his.

The fact that Tex is a switch-hitter and isn't susceptible to tough lefties getting him out easily is also a large plus in his favor. And while Howard's offensive numbers are slightly better, they are worlds apart defensively. Enough so that it pushes Tex ahead of him overall.

 

[Michael Brown]

The middle of what group??? Howard hits HR and gets RBIs. But other players in his lineup slot would have just as many, if not more, RBIs. Some people seem to think that if you plug a guy like Ichiro into the cleanup slot he'd still be a 50-RBI guy. The spot in the lineup and the players hitting in front of and behind you are just as important as what you actually do.

Howard's career BA as of right now is .279, while his career BA with runners in scoring position is .279...which means he doesn't get better when guys are on base than when nobody is on. I don't know how that somehow "proves" that he's some great run-producer. A guy who hits .279 with RISP is probably about a league-average hitter with RISP. He hits more HR than most, so a few more of those guys are driven in than they would be with singles and doubles. But when you compound how many MORE singles and doubles the other elite hitters would get (guys who hit .347 with RISP like Mauer, or guys who hit .338 with RISP like Ichiro), I think you'd see them both driving in 140+ runs as well no matter how many HR they hit.

This is a comment that got me thinking, so I figured that I would look into it. The numbers kinda surprised me, as I thought that I would have to concede this arguement.RISP

Ichiro-.338, 760 AB, 272 RBI (.36 RBI/AB)

Mauer- .347, 663 AB, 333 RBI (.50 RBI/AB)

Howard-.279, 810 AB, 414 RBI (.51 RBI/AB)

I think if Ichiro was a cleanup hitter, he wouldn't be slapping singles down the 3B line -- he'd be trying to produce more XBH. So while his average may take a dip to say the .310 level, his doubles and HR would probably double and he'd probably drive in more. Additionally, Ichiro is currently trying to drive in 8th and 9th place hitters while Howard is driving in Rollins, Victorino, Utley...fast guys who will just about always score from 2nd on a single. But even if I concede that that represents a small amount of RBI and that Ichiro wouldn't be a 100-RBI guy, look at Mauer's stats.Mauer drives in almost as many runs as Howard with RISP and that kinda proves my point. My point was, these are guys generally regarded as singles and doubles hitters and they (well at least Mauer) compare favorably to Howard. Put in a true "power" guy like Pujols or Teixeira, guys who hit .290-.320 with XBH power, in place of those guys and you'll see just how many more runs they'd be driving in.

 

[Domination]

Here's your real problem, Sport.

The people who gave out the contracts to Tex and Mauer considered at what point they were in their development and their career. You aren't.

Tex was a rock solid switch hitter who started his FA year at the age of 28. Mauer's contract is an extension starting next year so would start in his 28th year. Those 4 years between when they start and when Howard's start at 32 is basically the prime years for a hitter. If you want to argue that Howard was worth $25MM the last 4 years, I don't think you'd have too much argument. It would certainly be close enough that I don't think anyone would really have strong opinions on the matter. The problem is when you give him a 5 year contract that starts in 2012, you're promising that he's going to be worth $25MM for those five years. And that's a really risky proposition.

If you are going to compair when the contract starts, then you should also compair when the contract ends. Howard will be 37, Mauer- 36, Tex- 36, Arod- 42. You are dicounting Howard due to age, and yet all of these other players are signed to huge money at those same ages. Why wouldn't the same decline be a comparison for those players?

 

[Guest]

Here's your real problem, Sport.

The people who gave out the contracts to Tex and Mauer considered at what point they were in their development and their career. You aren't.

Tex was a rock solid switch hitter who started his FA year at the age of 28. Mauer's contract is an extension starting next year so would start in his 28th year. Those 4 years between when they start and when Howard's start at 32 is basically the prime years for a hitter. If you want to argue that Howard was worth $25MM the last 4 years, I don't think you'd have too much argument. It would certainly be close enough that I don't think anyone would really have strong opinions on the matter. The problem is when you give him a 5 year contract that starts in 2012, you're promising that he's going to be worth $25MM for those five years. And that's a really risky proposition.

If you are going to compair when the contract starts, then you should also compair when the contract ends. Howard will be 37, Mauer- 36, Tex- 36, Arod- 42. You are dicounting Howard due to age, and yet all of these other players are signed to huge money at those same ages. Why wouldn't the same decline be a comparison for those players?

Well, the teams should expect declines. And I'm sure it's built into the contract. If I'm a major league GM, I'm not thinking that I'm paying Mauer $23MM every year. That's what it averages out to, sure. But that's now what he's worth.What he's worth is something more like $28MM for his 4 prime years and then a decline after that. So you're getting a deal in the early years where you're paying $23MM and getting say $28MM of value and you're overpaying in the later years where you're paying $23MM and you're getting only $18MM or $15MM in value. Same thing goes for Tex. With Howard's contract, you're not getting any prime years. You're only getting years on the back end. That's what makes this such a worse deal for the Phillies.

ARod, I don't know on. That might prove to be the worst contract out of the bunch if he starts declining in the next year or two.

 

[pollardsvision]

Here's your real problem, Sport.

The people who gave out the contracts to Tex and Mauer considered at what point they were in their development and their career. You aren't.

Tex was a rock solid switch hitter who started his FA year at the age of 28. Mauer's contract is an extension starting next year so would start in his 28th year. Those 4 years between when they start and when Howard's start at 32 is basically the prime years for a hitter. If you want to argue that Howard was worth $25MM the last 4 years, I don't think you'd have too much argument. It would certainly be close enough that I don't think anyone would really have strong opinions on the matter. The problem is when you give him a 5 year contract that starts in 2012, you're promising that he's going to be worth $25MM for those five years. And that's a really risky proposition.

If you are going to compair when the contract starts, then you should also compair when the contract ends. Howard will be 37, Mauer- 36, Tex- 36, Arod- 42. You are dicounting Howard due to age, and yet all of these other players are signed to huge money at those same ages. Why wouldn't the same decline be a comparison for those players?

You know, this is a very good point. I'd say a couple of things to that.

1-I think those are all bad contracts, except for maybe Teix.

2-The Mauer and Teix contracts were likely necessary to lock up the prime years. That makes some sense. ARod's and Howard's contracts were not. They were given large, long contracts that began when their careers were likely to begin declining.

3-Those other deals weren't given out 2 years ahead of time.

4-Teix, Mauer, and ARod have demonstrated a commitment to conditioning and defense over the course of their careers that would suggest that they will age better than Howard. (Not to mention, the Yankees seem to have great in-house pharmacists to help extend the careers of older players)

 

[Domination]

Howard's career BA as of right now is .279, while his career BA with runners in scoring position is .279...which means he doesn't get better when guys are on base than when nobody is on. I don't know how that somehow "proves" that he's some great run-producer. A guy who hits .279 with RISP is probably about a league-average hitter with RISP. He hits more HR than most, so a few more of those guys are driven in than they would be with singles and doubles. But when you compound how many MORE singles and doubles the other elite hitters would get (guys who hit .347 with RISP like Mauer, or guys who hit .338 with RISP like Ichiro), I think you'd see them both driving in 140+ runs as well no matter how many HR they hit.

This is a comment that got me thinking, so I figured that I would look into it. The numbers kinda surprised me, as I thought that I would have to concede this arguement.RISP

Ichiro-.338, 760 AB, 272 RBI (.36 RBI/AB)

Mauer- .347, 663 AB, 333 RBI (.50 RBI/AB)

Howard-.279, 810 AB, 414 RBI (.51 RBI/AB)

I think if Ichiro was a cleanup hitter, he wouldn't be slapping singles down the 3B line -- he'd be trying to produce more XBH. So while his average may take a dip to say the .310 level, his doubles and HR would probably double and he'd probably drive in more. Additionally, Ichiro is currently trying to drive in 8th and 9th place hitters while Howard is driving in Rollins, Victorino, Utley...fast guys who will just about always score from 2nd on a single. But even if I concede that that represents a small amount of RBI and that Ichiro wouldn't be a 100-RBI guy, look at Mauer's stats.Mauer drives in almost as many runs as Howard with RISP and that kinda proves my point. My point was, these are guys generally regarded as singles and doubles hitters and they (well at least Mauer) compare favorably to Howard. Put in a true "power" guy like Pujols or Teixeira, guys who hit .290-.320 with XBH power, in place of those guys and you'll see just how many more runs they'd be driving in.

"Power" Guys

Prince- .48 RBI/AB

AGon- .44 RBI/AB

Arod- .48 RBI/AB

Tex- .51 RBI/AB

Pujols- .59 RBI/AB

With the exception of Pujols, who was never argued or in question, Howard is Elite at doing what he does. Your comment was that anyone can do what he does. You stated that players who hit for average would do better, but that is not the case. Howard struggles against lefties, and strikes out alot. But the only player more efficient over their career at driving in runs, is Pujols. Tex has put up comperable stats to Howard, and I would expect him to be able to build on that seeing as how he plays for the Yankees all star team. The fact is that some guys hit singles and others hit HRs. All players produce in different ways, but he should not be discounted for what he has and is doing.

 

[the moops]

All players produce in different ways, but he should not be discounted for what he has and is doing.

Nobody is discounting anything, except you. You ignore every other stat but HR and RBI.

 

[the moops]

tangotiger

Good read.

So, you have a one-third chance of being Jim Thome, a one-third chance of being Frank Thomas, and a one-third chance of being Mo Vaughn.

Ryan Howard was paid like he had a 100% chance of being Jim Thome.

 

[Guest]

Howard's career BA as of right now is .279, while his career BA with runners in scoring position is .279...which means he doesn't get better when guys are on base than when nobody is on. I don't know how that somehow "proves" that he's some great run-producer. A guy who hits .279 with RISP is probably about a league-average hitter with RISP. He hits more HR than most, so a few more of those guys are driven in than they would be with singles and doubles. But when you compound how many MORE singles and doubles the other elite hitters would get (guys who hit .347 with RISP like Mauer, or guys who hit .338 with RISP like Ichiro), I think you'd see them both driving in 140+ runs as well no matter how many HR they hit.

This is a comment that got me thinking, so I figured that I would look into it. The numbers kinda surprised me, as I thought that I would have to concede this arguement.RISP

Ichiro-.338, 760 AB, 272 RBI (.36 RBI/AB)

Mauer- .347, 663 AB, 333 RBI (.50 RBI/AB)

Howard-.279, 810 AB, 414 RBI (.51 RBI/AB)

*snip*

"Power" GuysPrince- .48 RBI/AB

AGon- .44 RBI/AB

Arod- .48 RBI/AB

Tex- .51 RBI/AB

Pujols- .59 RBI/AB

With the exception of Pujols, who was never argued or in question, Howard is Elite at doing what he does. Your comment was that anyone can do what he does. You stated that players who hit for average would do better, but that is not the case. Howard struggles against lefties, and strikes out alot. But the only player more efficient over their career at driving in runs, is Pujols. Tex has put up comperable stats to Howard, and I would expect him to be able to build on that seeing as how he plays for the Yankees all star team. The fact is that some guys hit singles and others hit HRs. All players produce in different ways, but he should not be discounted for what he has and is doing.

You're making some major leaps of logic here. You're acting like RBI is an individual independent stat. It isn't. You can have 1 guy in scoring position. You can have 2 guys. You can have 3. One of them can be Bengie Molina who couldn't score from second on a single and the other could be Jacoby Ellsbury who could maybe score from first.Basically, every "analysis" you guys do is focused on HRs and RBIs because that's the numbers he's best at or leads in, I guess. But nobody who is thinking seriously about how good a player is how a player compares to another player would use the stat of RBI per AB w RISP. It's ridiculous.

 

[shadyridr]

The fact that Tex is a switch-hitter and isn't susceptible to tough lefties getting him out easily is also a large plus in his favor. And while Howard's offensive numbers are slightly better, they are worlds apart defensively. Enough so that it pushes Tex ahead of him overall.

The fact that he doesnt get this is mind boggling. Howards weakness is lefties & defense. Tex's weakness is April

 

[=Smackdown=]

The fact that Tex is a switch-hitter and isn't susceptible to tough lefties getting him out easily is also a large plus in his favor. And while Howard's offensive numbers are slightly better, they are worlds apart defensively. Enough so that it pushes Tex ahead of him overall.

The fact that he doesnt get this is mind boggling. Howards weakness is lefties & defense. Tex's weakness is April

I'm not a fan of either team but given the choice between Howard or Tex to start for me at 1B I'd easily take Tex for the reasons you just mentioned.

 

[shadyridr]

Howard's career BA as of right now is .279, while his career BA with runners in scoring position is .279...which means he doesn't get better when guys are on base than when nobody is on. I don't know how that somehow "proves" that he's some great run-producer. A guy who hits .279 with RISP is probably about a league-average hitter with RISP. He hits more HR than most, so a few more of those guys are driven in than they would be with singles and doubles. But when you compound how many MORE singles and doubles the other elite hitters would get (guys who hit .347 with RISP like Mauer, or guys who hit .338 with RISP like Ichiro), I think you'd see them both driving in 140+ runs as well no matter how many HR they hit.

This is a comment that got me thinking, so I figured that I would look into it. The numbers kinda surprised me, as I thought that I would have to concede this arguement.RISP

Ichiro-.338, 760 AB, 272 RBI (.36 RBI/AB)

Mauer- .347, 663 AB, 333 RBI (.50 RBI/AB)

Howard-.279, 810 AB, 414 RBI (.51 RBI/AB)

*snip*

"Power" GuysPrince- .48 RBI/AB

AGon- .44 RBI/AB

Arod- .48 RBI/AB

Tex- .51 RBI/AB

Pujols- .59 RBI/AB

With the exception of Pujols, who was never argued or in question, Howard is Elite at doing what he does. Your comment was that anyone can do what he does. You stated that players who hit for average would do better, but that is not the case. Howard struggles against lefties, and strikes out alot. But the only player more efficient over their career at driving in runs, is Pujols. Tex has put up comperable stats to Howard, and I would expect him to be able to build on that seeing as how he plays for the Yankees all star team. The fact is that some guys hit singles and others hit HRs. All players produce in different ways, but he should not be discounted for what he has and is doing.

You're making some major leaps of logic here. You're acting like RBI is an individual independent stat. It isn't. You can have 1 guy in scoring position. You can have 2 guys. You can have 3.

Technically no you can't

 

[Guest]

You're making some major leaps of logic here. You're acting like RBI is an individual independent stat. It isn't. You can have 1 guy in scoring position. You can have 2 guys. You can have 3.

Technically no you can't

Fair enough. You can have 3 guys on base.

 

[Finless]

What's their to argue about? His number compare well with Ruth's

 

[dparker713]

Howard's career BA as of right now is .279, while his career BA with runners in scoring position is .279...which means he doesn't get better when guys are on base than when nobody is on. I don't know how that somehow "proves" that he's some great run-producer. A guy who hits .279 with RISP is probably about a league-average hitter with RISP. He hits more HR than most, so a few more of those guys are driven in than they would be with singles and doubles. But when you compound how many MORE singles and doubles the other elite hitters would get (guys who hit .347 with RISP like Mauer, or guys who hit .338 with RISP like Ichiro), I think you'd see them both driving in 140+ runs as well no matter how many HR they hit.

This is a comment that got me thinking, so I figured that I would look into it. The numbers kinda surprised me, as I thought that I would have to concede this arguement.RISP

Ichiro-.338, 760 AB, 272 RBI (.36 RBI/AB)

Mauer- .347, 663 AB, 333 RBI (.50 RBI/AB)

Howard-.279, 810 AB, 414 RBI (.51 RBI/AB)

I think if Ichiro was a cleanup hitter, he wouldn't be slapping singles down the 3B line -- he'd be trying to produce more XBH. So while his average may take a dip to say the .310 level, his doubles and HR would probably double and he'd probably drive in more. Additionally, Ichiro is currently trying to drive in 8th and 9th place hitters while Howard is driving in Rollins, Victorino, Utley...fast guys who will just about always score from 2nd on a single. But even if I concede that that represents a small amount of RBI and that Ichiro wouldn't be a 100-RBI guy, look at Mauer's stats.Mauer drives in almost as many runs as Howard with RISP and that kinda proves my point. My point was, these are guys generally regarded as singles and doubles hitters and they (well at least Mauer) compare favorably to Howard. Put in a true "power" guy like Pujols or Teixeira, guys who hit .290-.320 with XBH power, in place of those guys and you'll see just how many more runs they'd be driving in.

"Power" Guys

Prince- .48 RBI/AB

AGon- .44 RBI/AB

Arod- .48 RBI/AB

Tex- .51 RBI/AB

Pujols- .59 RBI/AB

With the exception of Pujols, who was never argued or in question, Howard is Elite at doing what he does. Your comment was that anyone can do what he does. You stated that players who hit for average would do better, but that is not the case. Howard struggles against lefties, and strikes out alot. But the only player more efficient over their career at driving in runs, is Pujols. Tex has put up comperable stats to Howard, and I would expect him to be able to build on that seeing as how he plays for the Yankees all star team. The fact is that some guys hit singles and others hit HRs. All players produce in different ways, but he should not be discounted for what he has and is doing.

How is RBI/AB at all isolate Howard's or any of these other guys abilities any more so than RBI? Maybe some percentage of baserunners or runners in scoring position knocked in, but RBI/AB really isnt helping your cause.

 

[the moops]

What's their to argue about? His number compare well with Ruth's

Not his batting average, runs scored, on base percentage, slugging percentage, totals bases, walks, hits, strikeouts, etc.

 

[Wrigley]

Thanks, Phillies, for pretty much guaranteeing The Brewers won't be able to resign Prince. Good god, this is a bad contract. But their mistake paves the way for other teams to overpay players, which means teams who can't waste money won't be able to retain their talent.

Welcome to baseballHe'll look good in Cubbie Blue

 

[Domination]

Howard's career BA as of right now is .279, while his career BA with runners in scoring position is .279...which means he doesn't get better when guys are on base than when nobody is on. I don't know how that somehow "proves" that he's some great run-producer. A guy who hits .279 with RISP is probably about a league-average hitter with RISP. He hits more HR than most, so a few more of those guys are driven in than they would be with singles and doubles. But when you compound how many MORE singles and doubles the other elite hitters would get (guys who hit .347 with RISP like Mauer, or guys who hit .338 with RISP like Ichiro), I think you'd see them both driving in 140+ runs as well no matter how many HR they hit.

This is a comment that got me thinking, so I figured that I would look into it. The numbers kinda surprised me, as I thought that I would have to concede this arguement.RISP

Ichiro-.338, 760 AB, 272 RBI (.36 RBI/AB)

Mauer- .347, 663 AB, 333 RBI (.50 RBI/AB)

Howard-.279, 810 AB, 414 RBI (.51 RBI/AB)

I think if Ichiro was a cleanup hitter, he wouldn't be slapping singles down the 3B line -- he'd be trying to produce more XBH. So while his average may take a dip to say the .310 level, his doubles and HR would probably double and he'd probably drive in more. Additionally, Ichiro is currently trying to drive in 8th and 9th place hitters while Howard is driving in Rollins, Victorino, Utley...fast guys who will just about always score from 2nd on a single. But even if I concede that that represents a small amount of RBI and that Ichiro wouldn't be a 100-RBI guy, look at Mauer's stats.Mauer drives in almost as many runs as Howard with RISP and that kinda proves my point. My point was, these are guys generally regarded as singles and doubles hitters and they (well at least Mauer) compare favorably to Howard. Put in a true "power" guy like Pujols or Teixeira, guys who hit .290-.320 with XBH power, in place of those guys and you'll see just how many more runs they'd be driving in.

"Power" Guys

Prince- .48 RBI/AB

AGon- .44 RBI/AB

Arod- .48 RBI/AB

Tex- .51 RBI/AB

Pujols- .59 RBI/AB

With the exception of Pujols, who was never argued or in question, Howard is Elite at doing what he does. Your comment was that anyone can do what he does. You stated that players who hit for average would do better, but that is not the case. Howard struggles against lefties, and strikes out alot. But the only player more efficient over their career at driving in runs, is Pujols. Tex has put up comperable stats to Howard, and I would expect him to be able to build on that seeing as how he plays for the Yankees all star team. The fact is that some guys hit singles and others hit HRs. All players produce in different ways, but he should not be discounted for what he has and is doing.

How is RBI/AB at all isolate Howard's or any of these other guys abilities any more so than RBI? Maybe some percentage of baserunners or runners in scoring position knocked in, but RBI/AB really isnt helping your cause.

The calculations of RBI /AB was with RISP. It was stated that if you put a player who hits for better average (Ichiro or Mauer) or another power hitter (Arod, Fielder, AGon) tht they would produce the same numbers or better with RISP because of Howard's strike outs and struggles against lefties. All I did was compare each individual players AB and RBIs with RISP, and figured out who actually performs better.

 

[shadyridr]

The calculations of RBI /AB was with RISP. It was stated that if you put a player who hits for better average (Ichiro or Mauer) or another power hitter (Arod, Fielder, AGon) tht they would produce the same numbers or better with RISP because of Howard's strike outs and struggles against lefties. All I did was compare each individual players AB and RBIs with RISP, and figured out who actually performs better.

Please explain how RBI/AB with RISP is a better indicator of this than BA w/RISP.