Ryan Longwell's TD (1 Viewer)

[atcdav]

Here comes the contraversy. Our league uses Special Teams scoring. A punt return for a td is a ST TD and not an individual TD for that player. Same for KO return. So. A fake punt/ fake field goal was not covered. Are these ST or indivdual scores?

 

[reg]

It should not be considered a special teams td IMO. Credit should go to Longwell. It is no different than if Brad Johnson was the holder and he ended up throwing the pass.

 

[Snotbubbles]

I believe that any play that involves the kicker attempting a field goal should be deemed special teams unless specifically covered by your rules.

 

[Bull Dozier]

Here comes the contraversy. Our league uses Special Teams scoring. A punt return for a td is a ST TD and not an individual TD for that player. Same for KO return. So. A fake punt/ fake field goal was not covered. Are these ST or indivdual scores?

I think the plain and simple disctinction is that if the ball is not kicked, it is not a special teams play. Kickoffs and punts involve special teams play, passes do not. Also, would the special teams get the points if Longwell kicked the field goal? If no, why should they for him passing a touchdown? It's an offensive play.

 

[smcindoe]

I believe that any play that involves the kicker attempting a field goal should be deemed special teams unless specifically covered by your rules.

But he didn't attempt the FG. He passed for a TD, no different than any other play doing the same. How they lined up shouldn't matter.If your league is old enough, there was a precedent for this a few years back when Vinateri threw a TD. You could check what was done then and do the same here.

 

[crowe1130]

My league had a big debate about this years ago. The solution we came up with for fake kicks was this:

If the play is a fake placekick, it is offense. Individual players get the points.

If the play is a fake punt, it is special teams. Def/ST get the points.

 

[Bull Dozier]

I believe that any play that involves the kicker attempting a field goal should be deemed special teams unless specifically covered by your rules.

So, if Longwell kicked the field goal, the D/ST gets three points?

 

[bryhamm]

I believe that any play that involves the kicker attempting a field goal should be deemed special teams unless specifically covered by your rules.

So, if Longwell kicked the field goal, the D/ST gets three points?

I said the same thing in another thread. This should shut anyone up who says that it should be a ST TD. It is not. It is an individual TD by Longwell.

 

[Lauryn]

lawd, not this crap again

like the above poster said, do you give the minny d/st 3 points when he makes a FG? if not, the TD pass should be his.

 

[atcdav]

I believe that any play that involves the kicker attempting a field goal should be deemed special teams unless specifically covered by your rules.

But he didn't attempt the FG. He passed for a TD, no different than any other play doing the same. How they lined up shouldn't matter.If your league is old enough, there was a precedent for this a few years back when Vinateri threw a TD. You could check what was done then and do the same here.

This is a new league. The issue I have is the "special teams" scoring. The field goal unit is a special team. if the kick is blocked an Longwell picks it up and runs it in for a TD who gets the TD.

 

[Snotbubbles]

So, if Longwell kicked the field goal, the D/ST gets three points?

No because most fantasy rulebooks expressly give points for field goal and extra point attempts to kickers. So in your rules field goals and extra points are taken away from the D/ST and given to the individual kickers even though a field goal and extra point attempt is consider a special teams play.

 

[bryhamm]

So, if Longwell kicked the field goal, the D/ST gets three points?

No because most fantasy rulebooks expressly give points for field goal and extra point attempts to kickers. So in your rules field goals and extra points are taken away from the D/ST and given to the individual kickers even though a field goal and extra point attempt is consider a special teams play.

My guess is that "most fantasty rulebooks" award points for made FGs and EPs and do not specifically identify that it is only the K that can score these points. It is just common knowledge that the K is the only person who is going to score these points (unless Flutie comes back out of retirement and someone decides to start him).

 

[painkiller]

It is a TD pass for Longwell. (Unless your rules specifically state otherwise -- true in some leagues, I'm sure.)

Our league has similar special teams rules for kickoff and punt returns for TDs. Since the kicker is designated as specific position (in fantasy football), he should get the points regardless. Just because the play wasn't a kick doesn't mean the kicker shouldn't get the points.

Now if a kick is blocked and returned by the "defense" for a TD, it is a special teams play.

It's a fine line, but this really needs to be covered in the league rules since it's not unheard of for a kicker or holder to throw a TD pass.

I know it's college, but Florida State (I think) returned a extra point attempt for a 2 point conversion for them. If it were the NFL, Florida State special teams would get the two points, right?

 

[Snotbubbles]

My guess is that "most fantasty rulebooks" award points for made FGs and EPs and do not specifically identify that it is only the K that can score these points. It is just common knowledge that the K is the only person who is going to score these points (unless Flutie comes back out of retirement and someone decides to start him).

Not really sure where you're going with this but the person who kicks the ball is called...."the kicker." So if your league allows 3pts for a made FG and 1 pt for an made extra point if it were Doug Flutie or Ladainian Tomlinson who took the kick they would get the three points. It still does nothing to refute the argument that FGs and extra points are special teams plays that in rulebooks are taken away from D/ST because they are expressly carved out of the scoring and given to the person who makes the FG or extra point.

 

[bryhamm]

My guess is that "most fantasty rulebooks" award points for made FGs and EPs and do not specifically identify that it is only the K that can score these points. It is just common knowledge that the K is the only person who is going to score these points (unless Flutie comes back out of retirement and someone decides to start him).

Not really sure where you're going with this but the person who kicks the ball is called...."the kicker." So if your league allows 3pts for a made FG and 1 pt for an made extra point if it were Doug Flutie or Ladainian Tomlinson who took the kick they would get the three points. It still does nothing to refute the argument that FGs and extra points are special teams plays that in rulebooks are taken away from D/ST because they are expressly carved out of the scoring and given to the person who makes the FG or extra point.

Using your arguement, a TD was thrown. Doesn't matter if it is Manning, LT2, or a "kicker" ... it was thrown by a player and thus should be a TD for Longwell. Most ST fantasy plays are specific for returns, either kickoff or punt.

 

[bryhamm]

My guess is that "most fantasty rulebooks" award points for made FGs and EPs and do not specifically identify that it is only the K that can score these points. It is just common knowledge that the K is the only person who is going to score these points (unless Flutie comes back out of retirement and someone decides to start him).

Not really sure where you're going with this but the person who kicks the ball is called...."the kicker." So if your league allows 3pts for a made FG and 1 pt for an made extra point if it were Doug Flutie or Ladainian Tomlinson who took the kick they would get the three points. It still does nothing to refute the argument that FGs and extra points are special teams plays that in rulebooks are taken away from D/ST because they are expressly carved out of the scoring and given to the person who makes the FG or extra point.

And where I was going with this is that the phrase "kicker" is to designate a position, that is all. Just because Flutie drop-kicked an EP or FG (whichever it was) on a play does not mean that Flutie is the kicker. He simply kicked on that particular play. Just as LT2 is not a QB, but he occasionally throws for a TD. I was simply saying that most rules designate a set amount of points for executing a type of play (rushing TD, passing TD, making a FG, etc) and the act of throwing for a TD is an individual act and should go to Longwell, not the ST.

 

[thayman]

You want a solution? Get rid of Team Defense. Go IDP no more problem

 

[Snotbubbles]

Using your arguement, a TD was thrown. Doesn't matter if it is Manning, LT2, or a "kicker" ... it was thrown by a player and thus should be a TD for Longwell.

If a TD is thrown during an offensive play then it goes to the individual player. If a TD is scored during a ST play then it goes to the ST unless the score is expressly excluded like made FGs and extra points.

Most ST fantasy plays are specific for returns, either kickoff or punt

Where does it say this?

And where I was going with this is that the phrase "kicker" is to designate a position, that is all. Just because Flutie drop-kicked an EP or FG (whichever it was) on a play does not mean that Flutie is the kicker.Just as LT2 is not a QB, but he occasionally throws for a TD.

Yes it does. As soon as he kicks it he ceases to be a QB and becomes a kicker. Just like when a RB catches a ball he is no longer a "runner" but a "receiver." Same thing with LT, once he passes the ball, he longer is a "runner" and he becomes a "passer."

I was simply saying that most rules designate a set amount of points for executing a type of play (rushing TD, passing TD, making a FG, etc) and the act of throwing for a TD is an individual act and should go to Longwell, not the ST.

How isn't a punt or kickoff return not an "individual act"?

 

[TommyGilmore]

Our league gives points to both Longwell and the D/ST.

That's the way it should be.

 

[dickey moe]

Our league gives points to both Longwell and the D/ST.That's the way it should be.

Why?

 

[bryhamm]

Using your arguement, a TD was thrown. Doesn't matter if it is Manning, LT2, or a "kicker" ... it was thrown by a player and thus should be a TD for Longwell.

If a TD is thrown during an offensive play then it goes to the individual player. If a TD is scored during a ST play then it goes to the ST unless the score is expressly excluded like made FGs and extra points.

Most ST fantasy plays are specific for returns, either kickoff or punt

Where does it say this?

And where I was going with this is that the phrase "kicker" is to designate a position, that is all. Just because Flutie drop-kicked an EP or FG (whichever it was) on a play does not mean that Flutie is the kicker.Just as LT2 is not a QB, but he occasionally throws for a TD.

Yes it does. As soon as he kicks it he ceases to be a QB and becomes a kicker. Just like when a RB catches a ball he is no longer a "runner" but a "receiver." Same thing with LT, once he passes the ball, he longer is a "runner" and he becomes a "passer."

I was simply saying that most rules designate a set amount of points for executing a type of play (rushing TD, passing TD, making a FG, etc) and the act of throwing for a TD is an individual act and should go to Longwell, not the ST.

How isn't a punt or kickoff return not an "individual act"?

Name a ST scoring play that does not involve a kickoff return or a punt return?In your mind, what designates a play a ST play?

 

[Saints-Man]

It should not be considered a special teams td IMO. Credit should go to Longwell. It is no different than if Brad Johnson was the holder and he ended up throwing the pass.

This is the correct answer. I have done football stats in high school and college, and the rule was in is not a special teams play UNTIL the ball hits the foot.So, Longwell play is treated no differently than if Brad Johnson lined up at QB. On a 4th down play, if a punter is tackled before he punts the ball, it is treated as a rushing play and the ball turns over on downs.

 

[Saints-Man]

Our league gives points to both Longwell and the D/ST.That's the way it should be.

I disagree. It should give points to Longwell and the receiver but not the D/ST. This is an offensive play from scrimmage.

 

[Synthesizer]

Both deserve it. Longwell himself threw it so he deserves a TD pass. The Vikings special teams were on the field so they deserve it too.

 

[videoguy505]

Longwell gets the points. The D/ST wouldn't get points unless it was a fluke play like the FG was kicked and missed inbounds, and the opposing team tried to return it and fumbled.

Once the kick crosses the line of scrimmage it becomes Special Teams. Until then it's Offense.

 

[Lauryn]

Our league gives points to both Longwell and the D/ST.That's the way it should be.

so if you have them both, you get the equivalent of two TD passes?double-dipping is lame... make a choice

 

[Saints-Man]

Longwell gets the points. The D/ST wouldn't get points unless it was a fluke play like the FG was kicked and missed inbounds, and the opposing team tried to return it and fumbled. Once the kick crosses the line of scrimmage it becomes Special Teams. Until then it's Offense.

You and I are close on this issue, but what do you do with a blocked punt (or FG) returned for a TD? Those blocked kicks rarely cross the line of scrimmage. Don't you count these as D/ST scores?

 

[CalBear]

If a TD is thrown during an offensive play then it goes to the individual player. If a TD is scored during a ST play then it goes to the ST unless the score is expressly excluded like made FGs and extra points.

It's not a ST play until the ball is kicked. It's an offensive pass play. Put it this way; if Flutie's drop kick FG had been blocked and returned for a TD, would your league have viewed that as an offensive play because the normal offense was on the field? How would it have been scored? Most likely, it would have been scored as a ST TD, because as soon as the ball is kicked, it's a ST play, no matter who is on the field at the time. Same for a QB on third-and-forever who pooch kicks out of the shotgun; if a DB receives the pooch kick and returns it for a TD, it's a ST TD.

 

[Snotbubbles]

Put it this way; if Flutie's drop kick FG had been blocked and returned for a TD, would your league have viewed that as an offensive play because the normal offense was on the field? How would it have been scored?

It would have been scored 6pts for the D/ST because the defensive team blocked the kick and returned it for a TD.

 

[Grigs Allmoon]

You want a solution? Get rid of Team Defense. Go IDP no more problem

IDP or No D =

 

[videoguy505]

Longwell gets the points. The D/ST wouldn't get points unless it was a fluke play like the FG was kicked and missed inbounds, and the opposing team tried to return it and fumbled.

Once the kick crosses the line of scrimmage it becomes Special Teams. Until then it's Offense.

You and I are close on this issue, but what do you do with a blocked punt (or FG) returned for a TD? Those blocked kicks rarely cross the line of scrimmage. Don't you count these as D/ST scores?

The NFL rule is that possession changes once the ball crosses the line, if I remember correctly. But if the blocked kick is being returned for a TD that implies the Defensive team recovered the block, so if it's D or ST it's still D/ST. If the Offense recovers a blocked kick on 4th down, and the recovering player is tackled before making a 1st down, it's loss of down and therefore possession, so it's considered the offense is still on the field. Once it crosses the line, if the team on Defense muffs the catch or fumbles the ball and the team that started as "offense" recovers, even if it wouldn't have been enough for a 1st down had the D not messed up, they get a new series.

 

[atcdav]

I believe that any play that involves the kicker attempting a field goal should be deemed special teams unless specifically covered by your rules.

So, if Longwell kicked the field goal, the D/ST gets three points?

Your scoring system already has in place scoring for field goals. In my other league this is not an issue because the only ST points allowed are Blocked FG for TD and Blocked Punt for TD. Everything else is individual

 

[Weapon of Mass Instruction]

What is so difficult on this? It is just an offensive 4th down play.

 

[JohnnyU]

The simple solution? However the league hosting site scores it determines how your league scores it. We do this with all of our scoring, unless the mistake is obvious, which they usually get right evntually anyway.

 

[David Yudkin]

MFL is scoring it as a TD for Longwell but nothing for DEF/ST. For those in any of my Anarchy leagues, it's NOT being scored as points for Minnesota's Team QB, as they are essentially saying Longwell is not a QB.

 

[smcindoe]

This is the correct answer. I have done football stats in high school and college, and the rule was it is not a special teams play UNTIL the ball hits the foot.

This is the way I'd see it too. Nice simple rule that everyone can understand and eliminates all the objections in this thread.

 

[TommyGilmore]

Our league gives points to both Longwell and the D/ST.

That's the way it should be.

Why?

Why not? It's fantasy football. If we wanted something close to reality, we'd be giving QBs 3 points for TDs and only starting 1 RB and 2 WRs every week.

 

[CalBear]

Our league gives points to both Longwell and the D/ST.

That's the way it should be.

Why?

Why not? It's fantasy football. If we wanted something close to reality, we'd be giving QBs 3 points for TDs and only starting 1 RB and 2 WRs every week.

Giving points to both Longwell and the D/ST is logically inconsistent, unless you also give both team and individual credit for things like punt return TDs.

 

[cstu]

This is the correct answer. I have done football stats in high school and college, and the rule was it is not a special teams play UNTIL the ball hits the foot.

This is the way I'd see it too. Nice simple rule that everyone can understand and eliminates all the objections in this thread.

 

[diesel7982]

If anyone said anything other than it was an offensive play where Longwell was the QB, they should be given a 3 hour ban.

 

[Brock Middlebrook]

I believe that any play that involves the kicker attempting a field goal should be deemed special teams unless specifically covered by your rules.

X

 

[The Jerk]

My personal opinion is that this is an individual scoring play, not a special teams play. The question is what defines a special teams play -- and that is a kick of the ball (kickoff, punt, field goal, PAT).However, different leagues could conceivably establish specific rules. I avoided this potential controversy by explicitly stating in the rules for a league in which I am the Commissioner:

1. Touchdowns scored by defenses or special teams count for both the defense/special team and player who scores.a. Defensive scores can occur only when the ball is snapped by the opposition.b. Special teams scores can occur only when a kick is attempted by the opposition. (For example, a fake field goal is not a special teams score.)

Note that this rule also addresses the potential double fumble score that occurred I believe in a Tampa Bay game a few years ago. Offense runs a play with a turnover, defense is trying to return the score and the defense fumbles, now the original offense has the ball again and scores. Not a defensive score (the defense was on the sidelines), but it helps to have the rule stated in advance.

 

[The Jerk]

MFL is scoring it as a TD for Longwell but nothing for DEF/ST. For those in any of my Anarchy leagues, it's NOT being scored as points for Minnesota's Team QB, as they are essentially saying Longwell is not a QB.

Consistent with Tomlinson's halfback option passes...

 

[TME]

This is the correct answer. I have done football stats in high school and college, and the rule was it is not a special teams play UNTIL the ball hits the foot.

This is the way I'd see it too. Nice simple rule that everyone can understand and eliminates all the objections in this thread.

Another litmus test.Just to throw fuel on the fire. Then, what if the ball does not make it to a foot? For example, botched snap. Say, botched snap (or fumble-ruskie) and a guard picks it up and runs it in for a TD. TD for the guard or special teams? How would you score that?

If you answer, TD for the guard, then fine. You are being consistent though no one in FF world will get points for the score. If you answer TD for the special teams, then I think you are being inconsistent.

 

[cstu]

This is the correct answer. I have done football stats in high school and college, and the rule was it is not a special teams play UNTIL the ball hits the foot.

This is the way I'd see it too. Nice simple rule that everyone can understand and eliminates all the objections in this thread.

Another litmus test.Just to throw fuel on the fire. Then, what if the ball does not make it to a foot? For example, botched snap. Say, botched snap (or fumble-ruskie) and a guard picks it up and runs it in for a TD. TD for the guard or special teams? How would you score that?

If you answer, TD for the guard, then fine. You are being consistent though no one in FF world will get points for the score. If you answer TD for the special teams, then I think you are being inconsistent.

It would be a running play and the guard would get the TD. It doesn't matter how the team lines up or which players score - as long as the ball isn't kicked then it's the same as any other offensive play.

 

[David Yudkin]

This is the correct answer. I have done football stats in high school and college, and the rule was it is not a special teams play UNTIL the ball hits the foot.

This is the way I'd see it too. Nice simple rule that everyone can understand and eliminates all the objections in this thread.

Another litmus test.Just to throw fuel on the fire. Then, what if the ball does not make it to a foot? For example, botched snap. Say, botched snap (or fumble-ruskie) and a guard picks it up and runs it in for a TD. TD for the guard or special teams? How would you score that?

If you answer, TD for the guard, then fine. You are being consistent though no one in FF world will get points for the score. If you answer TD for the special teams, then I think you are being inconsistent.

How is this any different than if a guard scores on a fumble on first, second, or third down? No fantasy player would get credit on those downs either. Why should special teams get credit for this?I suppose leagues can make whatever rules they want, but IMO this should clearly not be a DEF/ST TD.

 

[reg]

This is the correct answer. I have done football stats in high school and college, and the rule was it is not a special teams play UNTIL the ball hits the foot.

This is the way I'd see it too. Nice simple rule that everyone can understand and eliminates all the objections in this thread.

Another litmus test.Just to throw fuel on the fire. Then, what if the ball does not make it to a foot? For example, botched snap. Say, botched snap (or fumble-ruskie) and a guard picks it up and runs it in for a TD. TD for the guard or special teams? How would you score that?

If you answer, TD for the guard, then fine. You are being consistent though no one in FF world will get points for the score. If you answer TD for the special teams, then I think you are being inconsistent.

The guard would get it. No different than a normal play.

 

[CalBear]

Another litmus test.Just to throw fuel on the fire. Then, what if the ball does not make it to a foot? For example, botched snap. Say, botched snap (or fumble-ruskie) and a guard picks it up and runs it in for a TD. TD for the guard or special teams? How would you score that?If you answer, TD for the guard, then fine. You are being consistent though no one in FF world will get points for the score. If you answer TD for the special teams, then I think you are being inconsistent.

Fumble recovery TD for the guard. No different than any other offensive play. In most leagues, probably no one scores it.

 

[CalBear]

It's also worth noting that many (most?) leagues don't award points to individuals for fumble recovery TDs, so even if it's Aaron Brooks fumbling the snap, and Lamont Jordan picking it up and running it in, no one gets the score.

 

[cstu]

It's also worth noting that many (most?) leagues don't award points to individuals for fumble recovery TDs, so even if it's Aaron Brooks fumbling the snap, and Lamont Jordan picking it up and running it in, no one gets the score.

This is news to me.